EPTTvP Lategame comment from Blizzard - Page 58
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duckmaster
687 Posts
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Scootaloo
655 Posts
Personally I'd be fine if Blizzard would nerf toss lategame if midgame terran get's nerfed, however then it get's into massive issues versus zergs, for the time being this is a pretty good state to be in, perhaps HotS will give more life to this issue or unrelated metagame changes will. What I could see maybe working is buffing mech play and nerfing bio, as bio is at this point far more effective versus toss in the early/midgame but this would screw over every terran that likes their bio play. I find the "Woe us poor terrans." attitude a bit offensive though considering it's history, zerg and toss had to deal with much bigger issues for much longer that where only beaten with superior play, 1-1-1 springs to mind. | ||
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
Toss builds are centered around having a minimum threshold of units to have, and devoting the resources saved to teching (for example in PvP, early aggression is intended to force sentries and delay tech). The exact same principle applies to this matchup. Terran have a bigger advantage, since their production facilities are segregated and they produce fixed ratios of units, they just have to constantly keep making the same. A toss will lose a game by warping in a round of zealots where a round of stalkers was required, terran only has to have the right number of buildings with the right number of add ons, which is usually predetermined (i.e. 3 rax, 1 tech lab, 2 reactors etc) This is how a 2 rax insta wins if it snipes a sentry or two, theres a constant stream of marines and marauders behind it, but by the time warp gate cool downs are done, too much damage has been done by the reinforcements. Drops do damage when they hit during cool downs and manage to snipe supporting pylons (which both supply block and disable gates). It doesn't even matter if the drop dies, since by the time it does, its already been reproduced. The foreign tendency to randomly keep dropping everywhere while turtling favours warp gates a lot. MKP and Polt both are v aggressive with their main armies, running about near the toss' fringe bases. Better micro means better trades, so they are more efficient in what they do, but to say that TvP is impossible without their micro is ridiculous. Thats like saying PvZ is impossible without MC forcefields. If you sit till 200/200 and lose an engagement near your base, you will lose the game to the warp gate mechanic and you are meant to. The whole point is to be supply efficient and keep trading your cheaper units for the toss' more expensive ones. The only thing terrans need to know is the correct number of production facilities to have, so they can keep adjusting their ratios according to what they see (which they will always see due to scans). Zealot archon? More marines. Colossus? More marauders (Thorzain style). Too many colossus? (Six vikings at a time). Note that ghosts take 40 seconds to pop, and with mobieus reactor, thats an emp in 40 seconds compared to the 50 required for HT and infestors. The game accounts for terran's production mechanic by allowing to get out its anti caster faster and more able. | ||
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smitty5569
Canada41 Posts
On May 06 2012 22:57 xelnaga_empire wrote: ^^^^ Exactly. You are practically forced to GG as Terran by the 20 to 25 minute mark. That's why the design is so bad. No... Basically what Blizzard is saying is that Terran has an advantage in the midgame so Terrans have to use their advantage so that they have a lead going into the late game. Basically if Terran doesn't use their advantage in the mid game then they're going to lose once the Protoss late game advantage kicks in. To summerize DO DAMAGE IN THE MID-GAME, you DO NOT have to do an all in, you just have to do damage so that you keep your advantage going into the late game. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On May 06 2012 07:07 avilo wrote: No, it's not at all like BW in the slightest. Because all 3 races in BW had the ability to play lategame on even terms regardless of whatever strong units there were. If it got to the defiler/vessel stages in lategame TvZ in brood war, it was not an automatic win or foregone conclusion for either side. Not in the slightest. If TvP went to lategame in brood war, it was not an automatic advantage for the Terran or Protoss. Both players had lategame options that they could utilize, and everything was essentially viable and had a counter but not such a hard counter that you were confined to only building that counter unit. In TvP SC2 the current way is that if TvP goes to lategame, Protoss literally has a huge advantage and is very forgiving. There is no "don't let them get there." Good defensive protosses nowadays always "get there" and then it starts to become an overwhelming advantage. So no, Terrans do not "deserve to lose" just because Protoss sat in their base "getting there." THat's absolutely stupid, and was not like brood war at all in the slightest. This is as biased as hell and you know it. Protoss has a massive advantage over Terran late game in BW by sheer usage of Arbiters/Carriers/Templar techs. Your deathball wasn't gonna do shit against any good P player that knew how to use those 3 units late game, particularly Templar/Arbiter tech that has gotten more popular recently over Carrier play. Even Flash who is notorious for his 4 base Doom pushes rarely does that anymore against P; he plays a much more aggressive style now because it's getting pretty obvious that tank ball pushes don't work as well as they used to since P players have refined their play. And TvZ late game was hard as shit as Terran. You're working way harder than the Z player by sheer virtue of having to micro Vessels/M&M/Tanks. Yeah it's pretty damn effective if you're good at it, but not that many players are (aka no one outside of Korea). Saying that TvZ is "balanced" late game is laughable, because outside of the elite pros in Korea M&M/Vessel/Tank balls got rolled over incredibly fast if you made any micro mistakes at all. Meanwhile, you as a Terran player have to perfectly position, utilize irradiate to chip away at Z key units like Defilers, micro M&M, all while macroing at the same time. This whole nonsense that Terran was somehow "as strong" as P and Z in the late game in BW is a load of bullshit. Yes, they had more weapons at their disposal so it was relatively more even, but they were still at a pretty big disadvantage by sheer virtue of having to utilize way more micro between Tanks, Vessels, Stim, EMP, etc. Anyone that played BW at the highest level KNOWS Terran was the hardest race to play by far. And it's looking that way in SC2. So stop the complaining. I still see the top Korean Terrans do perfectly fine; as long as they are, there's 0 reason to change the way the game is played. | ||
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
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BigBossX
United Kingdom357 Posts
What a SURPRISE there is a close to 50% winrate across all matchups WHEN THE LADDER IS DESIGNED TO KEEP A 50% WIN RATE. This doesn't mean the game is well balanced, it means the ladder is working AS IT WAS FUCKING DESIGNED. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On May 04 2012 13:59 mordk wrote: Isn't this also commonplace in BW? Particularly in TvZ if my memory serves me right. It doesn't mean there won't be a lategame, it doesn't mean there's no chance terran can win vs protoss in the lategame, you're reading it wrong. What Blizz was trying to say is that to increase their chances of winning terran should try to do damage in the midgame, where they have a substantial advantage. OP is making it seem like this philosophy is attempting to destroy terran macro play, which is clearly not the point the post was trying to make. Pretty much this. People are too quick to whine about the game instead of looking at their own gameplay mistakes and trying to capitalize on their opponent's mistakes. Personally don't really care how late game TvsP is because I'm going to try my best to gain an advantage at any point in the game and keep up with the harass to make sure I can sweep my opponent when I do my final push. | ||
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Oreo7
United States1647 Posts
ps. blizz please don't patch I want to see experimentation | ||
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Oreo7
United States1647 Posts
On May 07 2012 01:51 BigBossX wrote: All im going to say in this retarded as shit thread What a SURPRISE there is a close to 50% winrate across all matchups WHEN THE LADDER IS DESIGNED TO KEEP A 50% WIN RATE. This doesn't mean the game is well balanced, it means the ladder is working AS IT WAS FUCKING DESIGNED. Have you even read blizzards balance posts? You look like an idiot. They specifically said they solved for this. | ||
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DooMDash
United States1015 Posts
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
On May 07 2012 01:51 BigBossX wrote: All im going to say in this retarded as shit thread What a SURPRISE there is a close to 50% winrate across all matchups WHEN THE LADDER IS DESIGNED TO KEEP A 50% WIN RATE. This doesn't mean the game is well balanced, it means the ladder is working AS IT WAS FUCKING DESIGNED. No you retard, the ladder keeps individual win rates at 50%. If the ladder consists of only 2 players, 1 toss and 1 random player who play each other 30 times, such that the random plays 10 games of each race, and player 1 loses against zerg all the time, wins against terran half the time and always wins vs toss, both players have a 50% win rate, but the race win rates are 0% win rate in PvZ and a 50% win rate in PvT. | ||
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Pwnani
Canada27 Posts
Terran keep qq'ing about warp gates but don't notice the one thing that the best TvP'ers like MKP and Polt do consistently: constant aggression at the front, with constant trades. This completely negates the effects of warp gates, since terran's continuous production mechanic favours constant reinforcement, while warp gates will only be able to do so at regular intervals. Warp gates require thought as to what to produce when, you don't constantly produce a steady ratio of units out of them. Are you serious with this? Ummm terran has the same intervals, and you could just put your WARP gates back to gates. I am really tired of protoss using this stupid argument. This is not an advantage, having the ability to instantaneously pick your units is much better than waiting 30 seconds when the game can change. And no warp gates produce less thought than barracks, because you are not planning, you see the army and say okay " i need 2 templar, 5 zealots and 2 stalkers, BOOM done". | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
[QUOTE]On May 07 2012 01:28 chestnutcc wrote: Terran keep qq'ing about warp gates but don't notice the one thing that the best TvP'ers like MKP and Polt do consistently: constant aggression at the front, with constant trades. This completely negates the effects of warp gates, since terran's continuous production mechanic favours constant reinforcement, while warp gates will only be able to do so at regular intervals. Warp gates require thought as to what to produce when, you don't constantly produce a steady ratio of units out of them. Are you serious with this? Ummm terran has the same intervals, and you could just put your WARP gates back to gates. I am really tired of protoss using this stupid argument. This is not an advantage, having the ability to instantaneously pick your units is much better than waiting 30 seconds when the game can change. And no warp gates produce less thought than barracks, because you are not planning, you see the army and say okay " i need 2 templar, 5 zealots and 2 stalkers, BOOM done".[/QUOTE] Good luck warping in a HT when the terran army is at your door step. You don't turn warp gates back into gates because they are way slower and terran will outproduce you. The ability to save resources for teching which warp gates permit (since you don't need a standing army all the time) is what drives toss strategy. Its exactly the same with zerg, except its drones more than tech for them. Terran does not require v high tech to combat either race for most of the game (mech is the exception) and are consequently charged with being the aggressor to prevent teching/droning. | ||
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shockaslim
United States1104 Posts
On May 06 2012 22:18 Kliedxl wrote: The fact that protoss only rely on high templar and colossus mean that all the terran need to do against protoss is just make sure they have the viking and ghost they need and protoss get kited forever by marauder and protoss doesnt have any reliable unit to count on like roach for zerg... If you have no judgement stop posting shit !! REALLY awesome first post bro. But...what you are saying isn't that easy. If you kill all of the colossus and they make HTs well then you just have 20 supply in worthless units that aren't going to help you . Same goes with HTs. Kill all of those and they go into colossus and you have supply tied up in units that aren't going to kill what needs to die in order for you to win. Also, the fact that you said that Protoss doesn't have a reliable unit to stop marauders makes your thoughts void. | ||
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NeMeSiS3
Canada2972 Posts
On May 06 2012 23:35 one-one-one wrote: A lot of people ( mostly protoss probably ) come in here and complain about terrans balance whine... Now, I remember hearing a lot of complaints from protoss about the very same matchup like a year ago or something. And that whine kinda payed off , didn't it. Most terrans posting here don't even address the balance issue. What most of us say is that the matchup might be balanced if you look purely at win-rates, but that those might be a poor indicators of balance. There are other aspects to it. The balance might be very thin or fragile for some reason. There might also be a skew in the win-rate as a function of game length. Consider the mirror matchups. All of them are "balanced" , right ? Still, many players with me argue that TvT is the mirror-matchup that is the most stable, i.e. there is room for a large variety of playstyles and openers. You can fast expand , go for tech or make a lot of units and pressure. The defender has a proper defenders advantage. Compare ZvZ where you can't stop a bunch of lings running up the ramp into your main in the early game. Then we have PvP. Every time i watch a cast of PvP I hear the commentator talk about how this matchup has developed far beyond the 4-gate vs 4-gate wars every game. But more often than not I see one player going for the 4-gate while the other one does something else, only to loose the game. FXOz games vs Squirtle also made me lol. The news of a fast expand build excited the casters. But then FXOz lost badly cos of it , lol. So balanced doesn't mean varied gameplay and it doesn't imply good design. This is what we complain about. The matchup is considered broken, not necessarily imbalanced. Ppl are so quick to attack terrans of this opinion with accusations of "balance whine". Playing better is not gonna change the fact that the game is poorly designed. I don't see protoss's most winning major events in all of sc2 so far? Infact lately they've barely broken even with the other races through huk and MC and other's like Hero/squirtle and such... I know its strange, having GomTvT turn into Gomtv for a single season sure should send all the terrans into a frenzy, god forbid it... Terrans aren't winning everything. | ||
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Dzerzhinsky
Scotland327 Posts
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djdnt
Bulgaria10 Posts
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oZe
Sweden492 Posts
If you play to win switch to the imba race. If you play to have fun. Why are you so upset? Btw people not having figured out everything in a massively complex game. That actually makes chess, which they haven't figured out, seem pretty banal. Doesn't mean it's imbalanced. Remember not long ago when terran rofl stomped everyone so hard they called GomTV GomTvT? The metagame levels, it's the nature of the metagame. They patch it all the time. People seem to think were at the end station when we haven't even seen HoTS. Alot of people misstake balance for imbalance because they win less than when it was imbalanced. Assuming they have skill when in reality their lack thereof was obscured by imbalance =) | ||
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