On May 07 2012 02:37 djdnt wrote: All Blizzard has to do is fix the HT and be done with this problem, but obviously they dont care what the community thinks, so lets get over it, life sucks.
Wait what?
What is there to fix? That terrans sometimes forget ghosts? You have a spellcaster that can murder a HT at more range, while being invisible and having scans, if anything ghost should get nerfed. There's good reasons the EMP used to be on the science vessel in BW, not the ghost.
Terrans DO NOT forget for ghosts. They simply cannot afford them properly without a 3rd base. Polt and MKP doesn't make any ghost before their 3rd base. Ghosts doesn't worth anything without a huge bio army behind them, because just simply, EMP DO NOT KILL !!
Alaiz, thats far from the problem in TvP. Ghosts and HT aren't the problem (if there is any at all). I think its just that protoss is much more forgiving when it comes to not extremely high level play. High templars have been perfectly fine since the amulet removal. (which was completely broken). If you can't get ghosts by the time he has high templar that means your either a worse player than your opponent with lack of scout and proper response. Or, your too behind because of something in early game. In which case it's far from a balance problem.
Yes, this is the main issue. Not HT or Ghosts. Protoss is MUCH more forgiving (easy honestly) at levels below high level Korea. Tons of pro-gamers have come out and said it. Even Cloud said it in this thread despite saying that very high level TvP is T favored in the late game. The fact is, Terran is required to pull off more difficult micro and mechanics from a lower skill level in order to keep up with Protoss.
On May 07 2012 04:00 zmansman17 wrote: Actually Terrans do use Ghosts, hit perfect EMPs and still get decimated.
Exhibit A: Supernova v. Hero. Supernova had 3 tanks seiged in position, 3 bunker filled with units, stim, +1 and shields, 2 medivacs, 3 ghosts. Blanketed all of Hero's units. Supernova had better upgrades.
And somehow Hero's chargelots obliterated the position.
Just shows that you do not understand how the game works.
- They both had equal army supply yes (terran should have had more in that state of the game) - 20 Army supply of 100 of the terran was medivacs which very basically useless in the fight because the terran basically didn't move an inch thinking he had a better army than he really had therefore he didn't benefit in any way from the medivacs - Didn't stop the hts from storming despite having ghosts - Hero had better upgrades (0/2 vs. 1/1) and hero was basically pure zealots - in the end effectivly 80 Supply army of terran (mostly bio with poor macro) lost to 100 army supply with almost pure chargelots with better upgrades than terran and some really nice HTs with storm.
tldr: SuperNova lacked the firepower because he builded to many special units that added no DPS - had he 20 supply of more bio or tanks instead of medivacs that engagement would gone alot more closely / differently especially if he had landed at least 1 good emp disabling at least 1 or 2 HTs
On May 07 2012 04:00 zmansman17 wrote: Actually Terrans do use Ghosts, hit perfect EMPs and still get decimated.
Exhibit A: Supernova v. Hero. Supernova had 3 tanks seiged in position, 3 bunker filled with units, stim, +1 and shields, 2 medivacs, 3 ghosts. Blanketed all of Hero's units. Supernova had better upgrades.
And somehow Hero's chargelots obliterated the position.
Please do not conflate necessity and sufficiency.
It is not sufficient to win TvP to land perfect EMPs.
However, it is a necessary condition to land perfect EMPs to win TvP. i.e. It is one of many things that you must do, only to have the requisite chance to win.
TvP is in a very sad state of affairs passed 20 minutes. Rank 1 Master here and I have only won a single TvP passed 20 minutes all season. And of my other Top master, GM Terran friends, have similar win rates (as tallied on sc2 gears) passed this time. It's just too easy for Protoss players to dump minerals into warpgate and warp in chargelots during/after a battle.
Oddly enough from watching my replays, Protoss is the only race at the GM level where the players consistently (yes, gm players) get away with 1 hotkey and nearly half the apm of their opponent.
Sounds oddly familiar to Idra's whine in BW about how Terran vs Protoss was almost impossible late game due to Arbiter/Templar/Carrier tech + faster build times on Zeals/Goons versus Tanks which were a requirement to win in late game vs P.
Seriously, the amount of bullshit I'm reading in this thread makes me laugh. Please go back to BW and don't attack a Z or P for about 20 minutes and let them macro up and see if you stand a chance. Let them get Defiler/Ultra/HT/Arbiter/etc. tech for free. Same shit will happen, and you'll probably cry about how Terran late game is underpowered in BW.
Do I think Terran could use a buff late game? Yes. Do I think that people are starting to spout nonsensical bullshit in this thread (such as how Terran could go toe to toe with P or Z late game in BW)? Yes.
A maxed Terran mech army is almost unbeatable for either P or Z in BW, what are you talking about?
1) No. It's not. Maxed Mech army is extremely immobile and is susceptible to flanks/good spell usage. Good Swarms for instance pretty much murder Mech based armies.
2) You haven't been keeping up lately, because every time I see a T try to run a 3/4 base Doom push vs P now adays in Proleague play they get absolutely massacred by Arbiter/Templar play.
actually it is, if we are talking about a psi limit mech in BW(and also work in SC2 T&T), with let's say 30 tank and 30 liath, u have basically won, nothing p and z can do, even dark swarm can't do nothing...
On May 07 2012 04:00 zmansman17 wrote: Actually Terrans do use Ghosts, hit perfect EMPs and still get decimated.
Exhibit A: Supernova v. Hero. Supernova had 3 tanks seiged in position, 3 bunker filled with units, stim, +1 and shields, 2 medivacs, 3 ghosts. Blanketed all of Hero's units. Supernova had better upgrades.
And somehow Hero's chargelots obliterated the position.
Please do not conflate necessity and sufficiency.
It is not sufficient to win TvP to land perfect EMPs.
However, it is a necessary condition to land perfect EMPs to win TvP. i.e. It is one of many things that you must do, only to have the requisite chance to win.
TvP is in a very sad state of affairs passed 20 minutes. Rank 1 Master here and I have only won a single TvP passed 20 minutes all season. And of my other Top master, GM Terran friends, have similar win rates (as tallied on sc2 gears) passed this time. It's just too easy for Protoss players to dump minerals into warpgate and warp in chargelots during/after a battle.
Oddly enough from watching my replays, Protoss is the only race at the GM level where the players consistently (yes, gm players) get away with 1 hotkey and nearly half the apm of their opponent.
Sounds oddly familiar to Idra's whine in BW about how Terran vs Protoss was almost impossible late game due to Arbiter/Templar/Carrier tech + faster build times on Zeals/Goons versus Tanks which were a requirement to win in late game vs P.
Seriously, the amount of bullshit I'm reading in this thread makes me laugh. Please go back to BW and don't attack a Z or P for about 20 minutes and let them macro up and see if you stand a chance. Let them get Defiler/Ultra/HT/Arbiter/etc. tech for free. Same shit will happen, and you'll probably cry about how Terran late game is underpowered in BW.
Do I think Terran could use a buff late game? Yes. Do I think that people are starting to spout nonsensical bullshit in this thread (such as how Terran could go toe to toe with P or Z late game in BW)? Yes.
A maxed Terran mech army is almost unbeatable for either P or Z in BW, what are you talking about?
1) No. It's not. Maxed Mech army is extremely immobile and is susceptible to flanks/good spell usage. Good Swarms for instance pretty much murder Mech based armies.
2) You haven't been keeping up lately, because every time I see a T try to run a 3/4 base Doom push vs P now adays in Proleague play they get absolutely massacred by Arbiter/Templar play.
I said it was hard to beat, not impossible. You implied Terran lategame in BW isn't up to par with that of Zerg and Protoss when it clearly is. If anything Terrran in SC2 has taken the role of Protoss in BW PvT, just without the fanciness of Arbiter play.
pff you don't have to be a genius to notice that protoss has way stronger units than T/Z in SC2. if some diamond scrubs like me battle each other and just send their armies at each other with aweful micro (you NEVER EVER get all of their HTs emp'ed in time, and you won't be albe to kite enough with vikings to kill colossus while keeping your ground army at distance), the protoss player always wins with less effort (regarding APM) than a T or Z player. i wouldn't even have thought there could be a debate about that, since it's so obvious...
It's just as Blizzard says, as T vP you're on a clock, they want it to be like that and I think it's an interesting approach to RTS game design, although I feel it quite favours the P player on lower levels of play. so killing the protoss before he's getting ht's and colossus is most of the time the best way out.
On May 07 2012 04:00 zmansman17 wrote: Actually Terrans do use Ghosts, hit perfect EMPs and still get decimated.
Exhibit A: Supernova v. Hero. Supernova had 3 tanks seiged in position, 3 bunker filled with units, stim, +1 and shields, 2 medivacs, 3 ghosts. Blanketed all of Hero's units. Supernova had better upgrades.
And somehow Hero's chargelots obliterated the position.
Please do not conflate necessity and sufficiency.
It is not sufficient to win TvP to land perfect EMPs.
However, it is a necessary condition to land perfect EMPs to win TvP. i.e. It is one of many things that you must do, only to have the requisite chance to win.
TvP is in a very sad state of affairs passed 20 minutes. Rank 1 Master here and I have only won a single TvP passed 20 minutes all season. And of my other Top master, GM Terran friends, have similar win rates (as tallied on sc2 gears) passed this time. It's just too easy for Protoss players to dump minerals into warpgate and warp in chargelots during/after a battle.
Oddly enough from watching my replays, Protoss is the only race at the GM level where the players consistently (yes, gm players) get away with 1 hotkey and nearly half the apm of their opponent.
Sounds oddly familiar to Idra's whine in BW about how Terran vs Protoss was almost impossible late game due to Arbiter/Templar/Carrier tech + faster build times on Zeals/Goons versus Tanks which were a requirement to win in late game vs P.
Seriously, the amount of bullshit I'm reading in this thread makes me laugh. Please go back to BW and don't attack a Z or P for about 20 minutes and let them macro up and see if you stand a chance. Let them get Defiler/Ultra/HT/Arbiter/etc. tech for free. Same shit will happen, and you'll probably cry about how Terran late game is underpowered in BW.
Do I think Terran could use a buff late game? Yes. Do I think that people are starting to spout nonsensical bullshit in this thread (such as how Terran could go toe to toe with P or Z late game in BW)? Yes.
You are making the false assumption that I or other Terran players do not attack the Protoss player before 20 minutes, and that's an incorrect assumption. Indeed, in the very game that I listed, Supernova survived Hero's 4 gate and was Way ahead on economy. He dropped hero and harassed. Also, Supernova was the one who attacked (and constructed 3 bunkers outside of Hero's base - so once again you are wrong) Hero.
You are quick to make incendiary statements but you offer nothing substantive or of any value in your response.
I really wish player's leagues, ranks and points would be listed by their responses. It would really help with responses like the one above.
On May 04 2012 15:33 avilo wrote: Btw, myself and many other Terran's have suggested plenty of things that they could actually do to start balancing out lategame, and I have no idea if blizzard has considered any but:
Lategame TvZ: -Tweak raven energy to 75 for HSM, remove the energy upgrade. This gives Terran a unit against broodlord/infestor, as well as a lategame splash unit in general. It would be as "imbalanced" as broodlord+infestor+corruptor currently is, aka just like brood war. They need to start taking this stance in their balance design - make things powerful, instead of nerf, nerf, nerf.
Broodlord infestor is powerful as fuck lategame, but giving Terran something equally as powerful to use such as a 75 nrg HSM means not only does Terran get lategame power just like Zerg does in this situation, but both players have incredibly strong things that can actually counteract the other.
In Brood war, irradiate and defilers were both "IMBALANCED" but the game ended up being very dynamic and excellent regardless. People have really lost touch with this because they don't remember just how damn good brood war is. Do people realize that defilers literally made all of their zerg ground units INVINCIBLE against 99% of Terran's units? Do people realize the science vessel actually could have enough energy for two irradiates that would kill every single Zerg unit and do splash to units around those? (ok it didn't kill the ultra, but it took out half it's health!)
The keys to making this game "good" are all there, it's just it seems the design team does not want to take anything from Starcraft 1 in concept/idea/design to get SC2 to where the balance needs to be. It's a bit disappointing, considering 99% of us are playing SC2 because of how awesome BW is.
Lategame PvT: -Make BCS more viable/change price/something
BCS are Terran's tier3, there is potential there to make that a transition unit for Terrans. It actually can be in the current game, but it requires 45 min+ stalemate situations (believe me, I probably have the most experience of any Terrans in 45 min+ games).
-Nerf the warpgate for the purpose of nerfing protoss's mid-game all-in strength across the board in all three match-ups.
Protoss was never meant to have an expoitable assortment of 2 base all-ins vs Z/T. The warp prism was supposed to provide this function of allowing itself to be a mobile warp generator. To fix a lot of issues for PvT lategame, and Protoss all-ins in general (including retarded 1 base all-ins PvP) simply make it so you can only warp in units AROUND GATEWAYS.
What this ends up doing is it makes Protoss as a race harder, because all-ins in the manner they are done nowadays will only be accessible through a warp prism. It also means that in lategame TvP if Terran has outplayed the Protoss the Terran is actually given an opportunity via time and travel distance to punish Protoss's expansions/bases. Yes, protoss can still build gateways at far away bases, but that becomes an investment/risk and obviously make the warp-in radius not gigantic so a Protoss player now also has to consider base layout as well.
It removes the entire advantage protoss has of simply avoiding travel distance, which is one of the fundamental problems right now with SC2 protoss, and then makes Protoss a less "easy" race to play, which is good.
-Late game chargelots They require no micro, and are bad for the game in general. Do something that makes the protoss player actually have to watch them/micro them instead of simply warp in and go afk.
-Mech vs Protoss - FIX IT! Terran mech is brood war, just because it's brood war does not mean it's bad *I'm looking at Dustin Browder right now*. In beta, you could go full ghost mech against protoss, and play long macro games even on ridiculously large maps, because siege tanks always were cost effective with their brood war damage, meaning if you were already pre-sieged, and protoss engaged like a caveman, you would always, always get your money's worth.
But Browder/Kim seem to have something against anything that is like "brood war" and they nerfed the siege tank, buffed the chargelot, and that was the nail in the coffin for mech tvp. A lot of people do not even remember this change if they did not play the beta, but this is why mech has become a "relic of the past" because of pre-emptive changes to make the game less like broodwar, and encourage Terrans to use the 1A marauder instead.
Mech can be made viable TvP, blizzard can do it, let's hope they will instead of side skirting around the issue. They can cheapen armory prices/mech/sky upgrade prices, remove thor energy, things of this nature, along with looking at the zealot armor type and making it so tanks can actually kill chargelots in siege mode lategame...
There's a lot that can be done to make Terran viable in lategame, that blizzard simply is not doing right now, whether out of fear that the game will be like brood war with "lots of siege tanks" or for whatever other reasons or because of the fear that Terran will be "imba" like it was ORIGINALLY in beta...but they really need to realize there is a balance problem right now and simply ignoring it and saying "Protoss has the advantage when they defend all your harass" is not the way to go about it.
No Terran, no pro terran, not even any Terran in lower leagues is going to be happy that blizzard has no acknowledged they are at a disadvantage when the game goes long. IT's just wrong.
On May 07 2012 04:40 KuKri wrote: pff you don't have to be a genius to notice that protoss has way stronger units than T/Z in SC2. if some diamond scrubs like me battle each other and just send their armies at each other with aweful micro (you NEVER EVER get all of their HTs emp'ed in time, and you won't be albe to kite enough with vikings to kill colossus while keeping your ground army at distance), the protoss player always wins with less effort (regarding APM) than a T or Z player. i wouldn't even have thought there could be a debate about that, since it's so obvious...
It's just as Blizzard says, as T vP you're on a clock, they want it to be like that and I think it's an interesting approach to RTS game design, although I feel it quite favours the P player on lower levels of play. so killing the protoss before he's getting ht's and colossus is most of the time the best way out.
Because they haven't really played T. The ones who play both know which one is easier. The rest are inflated by one league playing toss.
On May 07 2012 04:00 zmansman17 wrote: Actually Terrans do use Ghosts, hit perfect EMPs and still get decimated.
Exhibit A: Supernova v. Hero. Supernova had 3 tanks seiged in position, 3 bunker filled with units, stim, +1 and shields, 2 medivacs, 3 ghosts. Blanketed all of Hero's units. Supernova had better upgrades.
And somehow Hero's chargelots obliterated the position.
Just shows that you do not understand how the game works.
- They both had equal army supply yes (terran should have had more in that state of the game) - 20 Army supply of 100 of the terran was medivacs which very basically useless in the fight because the terran basically didn't move an inch thinking he had a better army than he really had therefore he didn't benefit in any way from the medivacs - Did stop the hts from storming despite having ghosts - Hero had better upgrades (0/2 vs. 1/1) - in the and SuperNova lacked the firepower because he builded to many special units that added no DPS - while hero was basically pure zealots
- in the end effectivly 80 Supply army of terran (mostly bio with poor macro) lost to 100 army supply with almost pure chargelots with better upgrades than terran and some really nice HTs with storm.
umm, what? 0/2 is magically better than 1/1? Seems even to me...
20 supply in worthless medivacs?????! medivacs are the most important unit in the terran army. (that's like saying lolol worthless supply in sentries)
and you completely ignore 3 bunkers and tanks... guess it didn't help your protoss is completely fine argument. and you also ignore the fact that hero failed a 4 gate vs a 1 rax expand, so EVEN with a lead as big as that, Supernova still got rolled from a moved chargelots + storm.
So really, if Terran lets 1 storm hit his army, regardless of his lead, he deserves to lose?
On May 07 2012 04:00 zmansman17 wrote: Actually Terrans do use Ghosts, hit perfect EMPs and still get decimated.
Exhibit A: Supernova v. Hero. Supernova had 3 tanks seiged in position, 3 bunker filled with units, stim, +1 and shields, 2 medivacs, 3 ghosts. Blanketed all of Hero's units. Supernova had better upgrades.
And somehow Hero's chargelots obliterated the position.
Please do not conflate necessity and sufficiency.
It is not sufficient to win TvP to land perfect EMPs.
However, it is a necessary condition to land perfect EMPs to win TvP. i.e. It is one of many things that you must do, only to have the requisite chance to win.
TvP is in a very sad state of affairs passed 20 minutes. Rank 1 Master here and I have only won a single TvP passed 20 minutes all season. And of my other Top master, GM Terran friends, have similar win rates (as tallied on sc2 gears) passed this time. It's just too easy for Protoss players to dump minerals into warpgate and warp in chargelots during/after a battle.
Oddly enough from watching my replays, Protoss is the only race at the GM level where the players consistently (yes, gm players) get away with 1 hotkey and nearly half the apm of their opponent.
Sounds oddly familiar to Idra's whine in BW about how Terran vs Protoss was almost impossible late game due to Arbiter/Templar/Carrier tech + faster build times on Zeals/Goons versus Tanks which were a requirement to win in late game vs P.
Seriously, the amount of bullshit I'm reading in this thread makes me laugh. Please go back to BW and don't attack a Z or P for about 20 minutes and let them macro up and see if you stand a chance. Let them get Defiler/Ultra/HT/Arbiter/etc. tech for free. Same shit will happen, and you'll probably cry about how Terran late game is underpowered in BW.
Do I think Terran could use a buff late game? Yes. Do I think that people are starting to spout nonsensical bullshit in this thread (such as how Terran could go toe to toe with P or Z late game in BW)? Yes.
A maxed Terran mech army is almost unbeatable for either P or Z in BW, what are you talking about?
1) No. It's not. Maxed Mech army is extremely immobile and is susceptible to flanks/good spell usage. Good Swarms for instance pretty much murder Mech based armies.
2) You haven't been keeping up lately, because every time I see a T try to run a 3/4 base Doom push vs P now adays in Proleague play they get absolutely massacred by Arbiter/Templar play.
actually it is, if we are talking about a psi limit mech in BW(and also work in SC2 T&T), with let's say 30 tank and 30 liath, u have basically won, nothing p and z can do, even dark swarm can't do nothing...
Shit like this blows my mind. People talking about stuff they have no idea about.
Look at around 19 minutes. Flash has a contain setup on Bisu and has pretty good position, but Bisu literally just a-move clicks his way through the whole entire fucking army with just pure Zealot/Goon. This has been occurring on a regularly basis lately, and alot of Terrans in BW pro play are having some trouble with the Arbiter based play that alot of P players are regularly starting to use now (most of the Carrier play has been phased out since the advent of Double Armory Goliaths).
This whole nonsense that a pure mech army was unstoppable in BW is a load of bullshit. There's a reason why Terran almost always tries to attack/kill P or Z in the midgame with a big timing attack. They do so because if they allow P or Z to grab Defiler/Arbiter/etc. tech uninhibited, they are gonna have a really fucking tough time. Yes, Terran had more tools in the late game, but this whole "nostalgic" bullshit that people are talking about how Terran could go even late game vs maxed out P/Z armies is a whole load of nonsense, especially considering P/Z could outmacro you in BW insanely hard and were able to chip away at the Mech army np on your side of the map until you reached their side.
Even with a MAXED 200/200 Mech army, you had to be EXTREMELY careful, because one fucking mistake means you lose, period. The game I just posted just proved that even with good positioning you can still get crushed by pure Zealot/Dragoon, let alone shit like Ultra/Defilers, Zealot/HT/Goon/Arbiters.
On May 07 2012 04:40 KuKri wrote: pff you don't have to be a genius to notice that protoss has way stronger units than T/Z in SC2. if some diamond scrubs like me battle each other and just send their armies at each other with aweful micro (you NEVER EVER get all of their HTs emp'ed in time, and you won't be albe to kite enough with vikings to kill colossus while keeping your ground army at distance), the protoss player always wins with less effort (regarding APM) than a T or Z player. i wouldn't even have thought there could be a debate about that, since it's so obvious...
It's just as Blizzard says, as T vP you're on a clock, they want it to be like that and I think it's an interesting approach to RTS game design, although I feel it quite favours the P player on lower levels of play. so killing the protoss before he's getting ht's and colossus is most of the time the best way out.
Because they haven't really played T. The ones who play both know which one is easier. The rest have are inflated by one league playing toss.
Absolutely. I ran into (2) Rank 1-2 Master Protoss players on ladder 2 days ago. Both of them informed me that they were sorry about the TvP MU, and that they Played LOW MASTER Terran the season before.
Like many Terrans sick of the MU, with very low win rates, they switched to Protoss. It's amazing what happens when you have a Terran player switch to Protoss. Not only do they perform well above what they were as Terran, but they understand how easy and imbalanced Protoss can be in the late game.
On May 06 2012 22:38 padfoota wrote: I love this thread. How exactly do you terran QQers propose to fix the matchup then? Nerf terran early - midgame and buff late game? Nerf protoss and break PvZ even more? There are plenty of late game TvP guides out there already. Late TvP is one of the simplest matchups (READ - SIMPLE, not EASY) as there isnt much to work with.
Terran was never meant to be an easy race to play, and we already have a lot of "feed me" rushes and all ins to work with in TvP. Also, late game TvP isnt as unplayable as late game PvZ given the current trend of base trades with mutas and most protoss have resorted to all sorts of all ins already. I dont see why the terran community has to continually bitch about the fucking matchup.
Oh you propose to change the entire game? Theres an expansion for that. Oh you think blizzard isnt doing a good job because they cant drastically change the game all over again and force players to relearn everything? Theres a reason why they ignore you QQers.
To those who propose thor changes - obviously havent played terran from the beginning. They already removed it before. Thor rushes became so fucking strong they had to remove it again. Its not like they never tested it.
Siege tank damage was nerfed a long time ago because of how fucking strong they were in TvZ and TvT. Buffing it in anyway would break both TvZ and TvT...also - have fun with your new even more stronger 1-1-1
On May 06 2012 19:38 OutOfMyMind_pro wrote: Ghosts outranges HT Ghosts use less energy Ghost can cloack And the clueless plat guys want to push the advantage of the Ghost over the High Templar even further!
You should try the Death ball vs Death Ball scenarios more. Snipe has a small casting time - Feedback doesnt. Feedback will hit before snipe hits, and emping individual HTs also wont work.
...Snipe outranges feedback. And that's not even including the possibility that the Terran controlling these ghosts isn't diamond and actually has the capability to grab cloak and move ghosts from a different angle.
On May 07 2012 04:40 KuKri wrote: pff you don't have to be a genius to notice that protoss has way stronger units than T/Z in SC2. if some diamond scrubs like me battle each other and just send their armies at each other with aweful micro (you NEVER EVER get all of their HTs emp'ed in time, and you won't be albe to kite enough with vikings to kill colossus while keeping your ground army at distance), the protoss player always wins with less effort (regarding APM) than a T or Z player. i wouldn't even have thought there could be a debate about that, since it's so obvious...
It's just as Blizzard says, as T vP you're on a clock, they want it to be like that and I think it's an interesting approach to RTS game design, although I feel it quite favours the P player on lower levels of play. so killing the protoss before he's getting ht's and colossus is most of the time the best way out.
Because they haven't really played T. The ones who play both know which one is easier. The rest have are inflated by one league playing toss.
Absolutely. I ran into (2) Rank 1-2 Master Protoss players on ladder 2 days ago. Both of them informed me that they were sorry about the TvP MU, and that they Played LOW MASTER Terran the season before.
Like many Terrans sick of the MU, with very low win rates, they switched to Protoss. It's amazing what happens when you have a Terran player switch to Protoss. Not only do they perform well above what they were as Terran, but they understand how easy and imbalanced Protoss can be in the late game.
On May 07 2012 04:40 KuKri wrote: pff you don't have to be a genius to notice that protoss has way stronger units than T/Z in SC2. if some diamond scrubs like me battle each other and just send their armies at each other with aweful micro (you NEVER EVER get all of their HTs emp'ed in time, and you won't be albe to kite enough with vikings to kill colossus while keeping your ground army at distance), the protoss player always wins with less effort (regarding APM) than a T or Z player. i wouldn't even have thought there could be a debate about that, since it's so obvious...
It's just as Blizzard says, as T vP you're on a clock, they want it to be like that and I think it's an interesting approach to RTS game design, although I feel it quite favours the P player on lower levels of play. so killing the protoss before he's getting ht's and colossus is most of the time the best way out.
no the best way is getting better and not get into a mindset that will bring you know where when you hit a wall because player get better than you overall! (Which is what we all see now in lower leagues)
It is the same in PvZ currently nothing P does on 2 base works because zerg players figured most timings out, still doesn't mean there is not a different way to play. If a Protoss currently doesn't go all-in on 2 bases and lets a Zerg get 3 bases uncontested, even if you camp to 200 / 200 your dead as protoss.
Same applies to TvP the other way around, where Protoss is forced to get more bases then T to be even, cause equal bases mean the terran has Eco-Advantage because of mules.
At least in my league, terran players are way to lazy regarding scouting because they feel too safe. So that anykind of gateway shenaningans or greedy play works (which would never work in highlevel play).
What amuses me is that Terran players are basically acknowledging that the game is fine at the highest level, but insisting that they shouldn't need to improve to win games. Beats me.
On May 07 2012 04:58 Shiori wrote: What amuses me is that Terran players are basically acknowledging that the game is fine at the highest level, but insisting that they shouldn't need to improve to win games. Beats me.
Right now the top level Koreans are still doing fine, and unless that changes, I see no reason to change anything (except some minor buffs late game, but MINOR, nothing major). Terran used to routinely get raped at anything below pro Korean level in BW, so I don't see why people are complaining at all.
It's like people but all forgot how idioticly easy it was to play P vs T in BW. You had so many cheeses/all-ins/tech paths to choose from while the Terran had to play absolutely perfect to just stand a chance.
US government: "Well we have realized that people with guns often are able to have an advantage in fights against people without guns. We are not going to take any measures to prevent this. However, studies have shown that before the person pulls the gun out to kill you, it is actually possible to kill the person first. So we just recommend that people without guns just go ahead and take advantage of the period of weakness and kill them before they are completely ready to shoot you. GLHF!"
On May 07 2012 04:58 Shiori wrote: What amuses me is that Terran players are basically acknowledging that the game is fine at the highest level, but insisting that they shouldn't need to improve to win games. Beats me.
Right now the top level Koreans are still doing fine, and unless that changes, I see no reason to change anything (except some minor buffs late game, but MINOR, nothing major). Terran used to routinely get raped at anything below pro Korean level in BW, so I don't see why people are complaining at all.
It's like people but all forgot how idioticly easy it was to play P vs T in BW. You had so many cheeses/all-ins/tech paths to choose from while the Terran had to play absolutely perfect to just stand a chance.
Agreed 100%, and lol@Avilo wanting to nerf Protoss into the ground because he can't hold all-ins.
IMO all races should have the option to macro and try to win with raw macro mechanics and bigger armies.
Protoss has this option in the colossus/stalker/zealot/sentry deathball, and also has a more mobile (and more powerful in small numbers) composition of zealot/ht/archon.
Zerg has this option in expanding, putting up spines and turtling to higher tech broodlords, ultralisks, corrupters, and infestors.
Terran... umm...
Nope.
Terran high tech units for each tech path are Battlecruiser, Thor and Ghost for air/mech/bio respectively, the ghost being nerfed into the ground has already had a massive impact on TvP and TvZ lategame compositions, but the battlecruiser and thor are not even viable.
In Korea, the metagame has switched away from mutalisk style harassment towards infestor roach compositions (although some players are switching back to mutalisks now that some Terrans are making builds to counter infestor/roach). This has made Thor play in TvZ essentially a waste of time, as the only unit Thors counter is mutalisk (and if you say banelings I'll slap you), which can be controlled VERY easily to take little to no damage.
Battlecruisers are in a similar position in the metagame; the only matchup they are regularly seen in is TvT... The reasons for this is because each race has a HARD counter to the Terran late-game units. (HT/Corrupter against BCs, and Zergling/Infestor/Broodlord/Colossus/Immortal... meh, forget it, this unit is trash) The only viable, cost effective units for Terran are all T1/2 units, which is horribly boring to watch as a spectator, because although there maybe a lot of action, one race is actually building up to get somewhere, while the other is just trying to kill them all game long (essentially the definition of an all-in) or get wiped up late-game.
Blizzard needs to fix MMM, and they need to make other options more viably cost-effective, at least so that we see it a few times at high level play that isn't a total cheese/all-in.
And to any Protoss fanboys who are comfortably shitting on Terrans on ladder and trying to instigate some reaction in this thread, think for a second... use your brains. Is TvP REALLY balanced? Is it? Until you can answer that question honestly and actually believe it, restrain yourselves from trying to comment, or at least make it more constructive than saying things like: "MAEK RAVENS, THEY GUUD"...
EPT
