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Instead of any nerfs or buffs, why not use the extremely powerful T3 units Terran already has? There seems to be a lot of talk about Thors & BCs being unviable because their energy makes them susceptible to feedback. Is it just me or is it not blindingly obvious that the solution is simply to EMP your own BC/Thors before you fight?
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On May 07 2012 10:32 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 10:27 InoyouS2 wrote:On May 07 2012 10:07 Talack wrote:On May 07 2012 09:58 GinDo wrote:On May 07 2012 09:49 Fencer710 wrote:On May 07 2012 09:45 DwindleFlip wrote:
I cant beat protoss at all. I can out produce them, out macro them, out resource them, harass them... HT + colossus, is too powerful. Terran is just too weak.
I have nothing kind to say about David Kim, so i wont. Mass HT/Colossus? Have you tried 14+ vikings and 15+ ghosts for mass EMP? You do realize that's 58 supply? 58 supply plus 80 workers leaves around 62 supply for MMM. Thats about 15 Maruader and 30 marines and 1 medivac. You might win the 1st engagement, but then Protoss warps in a mass ground army and then your screwed because you dumped all your supply into specialized Ghost and Vikings. Late-game you should be dropping workers down to 50 or so and suplimenting with mules. Freeing up an additional 30 supply. Combine this with rallies into their base will allow you to at least break even vs their reinforcements. (And going back to my previous post, if it's this late in the game stop with making so many marines and go into more ghost for the zealots. your army value will increase alot and they do considerably more dps to the zealot wall than marines would.) The Terran never gets a chance to get to this stage, Protoss 1-a deathballs with fast upgrades just flatten the Terran, the Terran has become more like the Zerg in a sense now, because it must be constantly trading COST EFFECTIVELY with the Protoss deathball, and the problem with this is that chargelots only cost 100 minerals, while the really hard hitting Protoss units are sitting WAAAAAAAY at the back, just slaughtering everything that doesn't run backwards. I liked avilo's post a lot, maybe take 1-2 of the suggestions and it would actually be balanced. The units I'd REALLY love to see used for Terran in TvP are BC, raven and reaper, I think TvZ atm is very balanced and is my favourite matchup to play and watch, but TvP is a joke atm. I recommend watching this game, quoted from a post by NrGmonk: + Show Spoiler +In this game, Happy basically turtles on 3-4 bases after a failed Ghost timing attack, all while massing 20+ ghosts for Snipe, EMP, and DPS against Zealots, as well as 14+ Vikings to take care of the Colossus and Observers. He barely does any drops at all, but still wins the game very easily, as well as being on fewer bases the majority of the time.
Why are you posting this video as an example of TvP??? The Protoss had a TERRIBLE engagement, truly awful, he wasn't decisive at all and lost a lot of crucial, high DPS units, yet he still managed to kill every Terran unit except the majority of the ghosts with just chargelots.
Now go look at all the other games out there where the Protoss engages the Terran and actually fights for the majority of the battle and I'll put my bottom dollar on the Protoss winning, even with super saiyan micro from the Terran.
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This comment by Blizz is eloquent and effective.
Hopefully it can help to mitigate some of the QQ.
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Instead of any nerfs or buffs, why not use the extremely powerful T3 units Terran already has? There seems to be a lot of talk about Thors & BCs being unviable because their energy makes them susceptible to feedback. Is it just me or is it not blindingly obvious that the solution is simply to EMP your own BC/Thors before you fight?
Well, Thors and BCs are on different upgrade paths where as the protoss ground army is on the same one. Also, it takes too long to transition into BCs. And if opponent sees you make Thors, they just get immortals which basically hard counters them.
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On May 07 2012 09:58 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 09:49 Fencer710 wrote:On May 07 2012 09:45 DwindleFlip wrote:
I cant beat protoss at all. I can out produce them, out macro them, out resource them, harass them... HT + colossus, is too powerful. Terran is just too weak.
I have nothing kind to say about David Kim, so i wont. Mass HT/Colossus? Have you tried 14+ vikings and 15+ ghosts for mass EMP? You do realize that's 58 supply? 58 supply plus 80 workers leaves around 62 supply for MMM. Thats about 15 Maruader and 30 marines and 1 medivac. You might win the 1st engagement, but then Protoss warps in a mass ground army and then your screwed because you dumped all your supply into specialized Ghost and Vikings.
Exactly but too many Posters on here clearly are not passed the gold league. This thread is just one strawman after another "Learn to EMP", "Make ghosts", "Make vikings".
It's hilarious to see the lack of knowledge and simple solutions that are being offered to a complex problem. It goes to show the lack of knowledge that non-Terran players possess about the current state of Terran.
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On May 07 2012 10:45 KingLol wrote:
Instead of any nerfs or buffs, why not use the extremely powerful T3 units Terran already has? There seems to be a lot of talk about Thors & BCs being unviable because their energy makes them susceptible to feedback. Is it just me or is it not blindingly obvious that the solution is simply to EMP your own BC/Thors before you fight?
There's also the issue of Thors and BC's being painfully slow, Terrans pretty much rely on their mobility in the lategame to pick favorable engagements, which you can't do with Thor/BC. You desperately need to be able to avoid the Protoss army until you're in a position where you can get off snipes/EMPs, and often need to dance around with your vikings to soften up colossus counts before engaging.
EMPing your own thor/BC also means that you're spending precious ghost energy just so you have the added DPS of a BC/thor mix, which doesn't really feel necessary. Terran already has really high DPS in their army with marines and marauders, the issue is that everything dies to the amount of splash damage Protoss lategame armies have. Yes, thors and BC's have more HP than bio and are more resilient against AoE, but whatever you're using to support them (usually marines) is going to melt and then you have an ultra-expensive naked army. Protoss's mineral-sink units that buffer for the real damage-dealers are hardy and reinforce quickly, Terran's mineral-sink unit is a DPS machine that dies to AoE really easily.
It's also worth mentioning that thors and BC's won't have upgrades, and no, you're not going to upgrade mech in the midgame. BC's will maybe end up with +2/0 by the lategame stage, but that's it.
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On May 07 2012 10:49 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 09:58 GinDo wrote:On May 07 2012 09:49 Fencer710 wrote:On May 07 2012 09:45 DwindleFlip wrote:
I cant beat protoss at all. I can out produce them, out macro them, out resource them, harass them... HT + colossus, is too powerful. Terran is just too weak.
I have nothing kind to say about David Kim, so i wont. Mass HT/Colossus? Have you tried 14+ vikings and 15+ ghosts for mass EMP? You do realize that's 58 supply? 58 supply plus 80 workers leaves around 62 supply for MMM. Thats about 15 Maruader and 30 marines and 1 medivac. You might win the 1st engagement, but then Protoss warps in a mass ground army and then your screwed because you dumped all your supply into specialized Ghost and Vikings. Exactly but too many Posters on here clearly are not passed the gold league. This thread is just one strawman after another "Learn to EMP", "Make ghosts", "Make vikings". It's hilarious to see the lack of knowledge and simple solutions that are being offered to a complex problem. It goes to show the lack of knowledge that non-Terran players possess about the current state of Terran.
Indeed, also the fact that the majority of the Protoss players are denying any imbalance and just tell the Terran players to "get better", even when a lot of the Terran players who share this opinion are professional gamers, not casualtossers.
Protoss players did not suddenly get incredibly good overnight, if you want proof of that, look at the Protoss win-rates after the upgrade patch.
Also note that out of 15 Terrans in code S, 3 made it to Ro8, and of the 7 Zergs 0 made it to the Ro8, whilst out of the 10 Protoss players, 5 made it to the Ro8.
Not sure how much more obvious it can get, but perhaps Blizzard are just making it imbalanced in order to have another Protoss GSL champion before HotS, so that their game looks balanced.
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On May 07 2012 10:46 InoyouS2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 10:32 Fencer710 wrote:On May 07 2012 10:27 InoyouS2 wrote:On May 07 2012 10:07 Talack wrote:On May 07 2012 09:58 GinDo wrote:On May 07 2012 09:49 Fencer710 wrote:On May 07 2012 09:45 DwindleFlip wrote:
I cant beat protoss at all. I can out produce them, out macro them, out resource them, harass them... HT + colossus, is too powerful. Terran is just too weak.
I have nothing kind to say about David Kim, so i wont. Mass HT/Colossus? Have you tried 14+ vikings and 15+ ghosts for mass EMP? You do realize that's 58 supply? 58 supply plus 80 workers leaves around 62 supply for MMM. Thats about 15 Maruader and 30 marines and 1 medivac. You might win the 1st engagement, but then Protoss warps in a mass ground army and then your screwed because you dumped all your supply into specialized Ghost and Vikings. Late-game you should be dropping workers down to 50 or so and suplimenting with mules. Freeing up an additional 30 supply. Combine this with rallies into their base will allow you to at least break even vs their reinforcements. (And going back to my previous post, if it's this late in the game stop with making so many marines and go into more ghost for the zealots. your army value will increase alot and they do considerably more dps to the zealot wall than marines would.) The Terran never gets a chance to get to this stage, Protoss 1-a deathballs with fast upgrades just flatten the Terran, the Terran has become more like the Zerg in a sense now, because it must be constantly trading COST EFFECTIVELY with the Protoss deathball, and the problem with this is that chargelots only cost 100 minerals, while the really hard hitting Protoss units are sitting WAAAAAAAY at the back, just slaughtering everything that doesn't run backwards. I liked avilo's post a lot, maybe take 1-2 of the suggestions and it would actually be balanced. The units I'd REALLY love to see used for Terran in TvP are BC, raven and reaper, I think TvZ atm is very balanced and is my favourite matchup to play and watch, but TvP is a joke atm. I recommend watching this game, quoted from a post by NrGmonk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=os0ggYkHVvM&feature=plcp + Show Spoiler +In this game, Happy basically turtles on 3-4 bases after a failed Ghost timing attack, all while massing 20+ ghosts for Snipe, EMP, and DPS against Zealots, as well as 14+ Vikings to take care of the Colossus and Observers. He barely does any drops at all, but still wins the game very easily, as well as being on fewer bases the majority of the time. Why are you posting this video as an example of TvP??? The Protoss had a TERRIBLE engagement, truly awful, he wasn't decisive at all and lost a lot of crucial, high DPS units, yet he still managed to kill every Terran unit except the majority of the ghosts with just chargelots. Now go look at all the other games out there where the Protoss engages the Terran and actually fights for the majority of the battle and I'll put my bottom dollar on the Protoss winning, even with super saiyan micro from the Terran.
May we suggest you watch the game before you post, protoss is engaging badly no doubt and terran win despite building so many useless Vikings for 3 Colossus, most of the protoss army are zealot.
PvT always have a time where terran get stormed badly and still able to win the game.
PvT did not have any late game advantage if terran do their job.
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On May 07 2012 10:56 InoyouS2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 10:49 zmansman17 wrote:On May 07 2012 09:58 GinDo wrote:On May 07 2012 09:49 Fencer710 wrote:On May 07 2012 09:45 DwindleFlip wrote:
I cant beat protoss at all. I can out produce them, out macro them, out resource them, harass them... HT + colossus, is too powerful. Terran is just too weak.
I have nothing kind to say about David Kim, so i wont. Mass HT/Colossus? Have you tried 14+ vikings and 15+ ghosts for mass EMP? You do realize that's 58 supply? 58 supply plus 80 workers leaves around 62 supply for MMM. Thats about 15 Maruader and 30 marines and 1 medivac. You might win the 1st engagement, but then Protoss warps in a mass ground army and then your screwed because you dumped all your supply into specialized Ghost and Vikings. Exactly but too many Posters on here clearly are not passed the gold league. This thread is just one strawman after another "Learn to EMP", "Make ghosts", "Make vikings". It's hilarious to see the lack of knowledge and simple solutions that are being offered to a complex problem. It goes to show the lack of knowledge that non-Terran players possess about the current state of Terran. Indeed, also the fact that the majority of the Protoss players are denying any imbalance and just tell the Terran players to "get better", even when a lot of the Terran players who share this opinion are professional gamers, not casualtossers. Protoss players did not suddenly get incredibly good overnight, if you want proof of that, look at the Protoss win-rates after the upgrade patch. Also note that out of 15 Terrans in code S, 3 made it to Ro8, and of the 7 Zergs 0 made it to the Ro8, whilst out of the 10 Protoss players, 5 made it to the Ro8. Not sure how much more obvious it can get, but perhaps Blizzard are just making it imbalanced in order to have another Protoss GSL champion before HotS, so that their game looks balanced.
you want to talk about imbal, look at the time where almost all terran went for 1/1/1 against protoss, there's almost 0 chance for protoss to win(even we know it was coming). Now there is 101 thing terran can do against protoss. Even when watching parting game as a spectator I still feel so hard for parting to get a good storm against Mkp.
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On May 07 2012 10:58 bowenkhong wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 10:46 InoyouS2 wrote:On May 07 2012 10:32 Fencer710 wrote:On May 07 2012 10:27 InoyouS2 wrote:On May 07 2012 10:07 Talack wrote:On May 07 2012 09:58 GinDo wrote:On May 07 2012 09:49 Fencer710 wrote:On May 07 2012 09:45 DwindleFlip wrote:
I cant beat protoss at all. I can out produce them, out macro them, out resource them, harass them... HT + colossus, is too powerful. Terran is just too weak.
I have nothing kind to say about David Kim, so i wont. Mass HT/Colossus? Have you tried 14+ vikings and 15+ ghosts for mass EMP? You do realize that's 58 supply? 58 supply plus 80 workers leaves around 62 supply for MMM. Thats about 15 Maruader and 30 marines and 1 medivac. You might win the 1st engagement, but then Protoss warps in a mass ground army and then your screwed because you dumped all your supply into specialized Ghost and Vikings. Late-game you should be dropping workers down to 50 or so and suplimenting with mules. Freeing up an additional 30 supply. Combine this with rallies into their base will allow you to at least break even vs their reinforcements. (And going back to my previous post, if it's this late in the game stop with making so many marines and go into more ghost for the zealots. your army value will increase alot and they do considerably more dps to the zealot wall than marines would.) The Terran never gets a chance to get to this stage, Protoss 1-a deathballs with fast upgrades just flatten the Terran, the Terran has become more like the Zerg in a sense now, because it must be constantly trading COST EFFECTIVELY with the Protoss deathball, and the problem with this is that chargelots only cost 100 minerals, while the really hard hitting Protoss units are sitting WAAAAAAAY at the back, just slaughtering everything that doesn't run backwards. I liked avilo's post a lot, maybe take 1-2 of the suggestions and it would actually be balanced. The units I'd REALLY love to see used for Terran in TvP are BC, raven and reaper, I think TvZ atm is very balanced and is my favourite matchup to play and watch, but TvP is a joke atm. I recommend watching this game, quoted from a post by NrGmonk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=os0ggYkHVvM&feature=plcp + Show Spoiler +In this game, Happy basically turtles on 3-4 bases after a failed Ghost timing attack, all while massing 20+ ghosts for Snipe, EMP, and DPS against Zealots, as well as 14+ Vikings to take care of the Colossus and Observers. He barely does any drops at all, but still wins the game very easily, as well as being on fewer bases the majority of the time. Why are you posting this video as an example of TvP??? The Protoss had a TERRIBLE engagement, truly awful, he wasn't decisive at all and lost a lot of crucial, high DPS units, yet he still managed to kill every Terran unit except the majority of the ghosts with just chargelots. Now go look at all the other games out there where the Protoss engages the Terran and actually fights for the majority of the battle and I'll put my bottom dollar on the Protoss winning, even with super saiyan micro from the Terran. May we suggest you watch the game before you post, protoss is engaging badly no doubt and toss win coz terran get 14 + Vikings for 3 Colossus, most of the protoss army are zealot. PvT always have a time where terran get stormed badly and still able to win the game. PvT did not have any late game advantage if terran do their job.
No... TvP Terran can only try to do damage before 13-15 minutes through the game, after that it's a slow and painful death.
I watched the game when it was broadcast, and CreatorPrime didn't just engage badly, he engaged horribly, and just let the Terran attack his army for half of the battle, true he's a good player, but the fact is that it takes the Protoss to make a huge mistake to lose a late-game battle, whereas Terran can do everything right and still lose. That is a lot of the reason why Terrans are complaining so much about TvP at the moment, truthfully the imbalance is there, but it's not as big as a lot of people make out. The problem is the Terrans have to work so much harder to win than the Protoss do, that's also why Korean TvP is T favoured, because Koreans love to multi-task and play aggressively, even if it means they get slaughtered later on.
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It just seems to me like terran have been winning for a long time with mid-game pushes or all-in's and now that protoss are learning to deal with it they've hit a wall.
The era of terran's going 111 every game didn't exactly improve their play.
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On May 07 2012 11:01 bowenkhong wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 10:56 InoyouS2 wrote:On May 07 2012 10:49 zmansman17 wrote:On May 07 2012 09:58 GinDo wrote:On May 07 2012 09:49 Fencer710 wrote:On May 07 2012 09:45 DwindleFlip wrote:
I cant beat protoss at all. I can out produce them, out macro them, out resource them, harass them... HT + colossus, is too powerful. Terran is just too weak.
I have nothing kind to say about David Kim, so i wont. Mass HT/Colossus? Have you tried 14+ vikings and 15+ ghosts for mass EMP? You do realize that's 58 supply? 58 supply plus 80 workers leaves around 62 supply for MMM. Thats about 15 Maruader and 30 marines and 1 medivac. You might win the 1st engagement, but then Protoss warps in a mass ground army and then your screwed because you dumped all your supply into specialized Ghost and Vikings. Exactly but too many Posters on here clearly are not passed the gold league. This thread is just one strawman after another "Learn to EMP", "Make ghosts", "Make vikings". It's hilarious to see the lack of knowledge and simple solutions that are being offered to a complex problem. It goes to show the lack of knowledge that non-Terran players possess about the current state of Terran. Indeed, also the fact that the majority of the Protoss players are denying any imbalance and just tell the Terran players to "get better", even when a lot of the Terran players who share this opinion are professional gamers, not casualtossers. Protoss players did not suddenly get incredibly good overnight, if you want proof of that, look at the Protoss win-rates after the upgrade patch. Also note that out of 15 Terrans in code S, 3 made it to Ro8, and of the 7 Zergs 0 made it to the Ro8, whilst out of the 10 Protoss players, 5 made it to the Ro8. Not sure how much more obvious it can get, but perhaps Blizzard are just making it imbalanced in order to have another Protoss GSL champion before HotS, so that their game looks balanced. you want to talk about imbal, look at the time where almost all terran went for 1/1/1 against protoss, there's almost 0 chance for protoss to win(even we know it was coming). Now there is 101 thing terran can do against protoss. Even when watching parting game as a spectator I still feel so hard for parting to get a good storm against Mkp.
That's an all-in build, and it got nerfed into the ground.
That's also reinforcing my point, so thank you for that; Terrans need to all-in and use timing attacks to beat a Protoss, whilst Protoss players can just wait until the late-game and win. Seriously have you ever heard of a 1-1-1 based late-game army? No, that'd be silly, because that composition is purely for DPS, and none of the units can outlast a Protoss army.
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On May 07 2012 10:45 KingLol wrote:
Instead of any nerfs or buffs, why not use the extremely powerful T3 units Terran already has? There seems to be a lot of talk about Thors & BCs being unviable because their energy makes them susceptible to feedback. Is it just me or is it not blindingly obvious that the solution is simply to EMP your own BC/Thors before you fight?
Because they aren't 'extremely powerful'. They're pretty weak and are far from game changing like HT/Colossus/BL are. Being vulnerable to feedback just makes it worse.
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On May 07 2012 10:46 InoyouS2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 10:32 Fencer710 wrote:On May 07 2012 10:27 InoyouS2 wrote:On May 07 2012 10:07 Talack wrote:On May 07 2012 09:58 GinDo wrote:On May 07 2012 09:49 Fencer710 wrote:On May 07 2012 09:45 DwindleFlip wrote:
I cant beat protoss at all. I can out produce them, out macro them, out resource them, harass them... HT + colossus, is too powerful. Terran is just too weak.
I have nothing kind to say about David Kim, so i wont. Mass HT/Colossus? Have you tried 14+ vikings and 15+ ghosts for mass EMP? You do realize that's 58 supply? 58 supply plus 80 workers leaves around 62 supply for MMM. Thats about 15 Maruader and 30 marines and 1 medivac. You might win the 1st engagement, but then Protoss warps in a mass ground army and then your screwed because you dumped all your supply into specialized Ghost and Vikings. Late-game you should be dropping workers down to 50 or so and suplimenting with mules. Freeing up an additional 30 supply. Combine this with rallies into their base will allow you to at least break even vs their reinforcements. (And going back to my previous post, if it's this late in the game stop with making so many marines and go into more ghost for the zealots. your army value will increase alot and they do considerably more dps to the zealot wall than marines would.) The Terran never gets a chance to get to this stage, Protoss 1-a deathballs with fast upgrades just flatten the Terran, the Terran has become more like the Zerg in a sense now, because it must be constantly trading COST EFFECTIVELY with the Protoss deathball, and the problem with this is that chargelots only cost 100 minerals, while the really hard hitting Protoss units are sitting WAAAAAAAY at the back, just slaughtering everything that doesn't run backwards. I liked avilo's post a lot, maybe take 1-2 of the suggestions and it would actually be balanced. The units I'd REALLY love to see used for Terran in TvP are BC, raven and reaper, I think TvZ atm is very balanced and is my favourite matchup to play and watch, but TvP is a joke atm. I recommend watching this game, quoted from a post by NrGmonk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=os0ggYkHVvM&feature=plcp + Show Spoiler +In this game, Happy basically turtles on 3-4 bases after a failed Ghost timing attack, all while massing 20+ ghosts for Snipe, EMP, and DPS against Zealots, as well as 14+ Vikings to take care of the Colossus and Observers. He barely does any drops at all, but still wins the game very easily, as well as being on fewer bases the majority of the time. Why are you posting this video as an example of TvP??? The Protoss had a TERRIBLE engagement, truly awful, he wasn't decisive at all and lost a lot of crucial, high DPS units, yet h e still managed to kill every Terran unit except the majority of the ghosts with just chargelots.Now go look at all the other games out there where the Protoss engages the Terran and actually fights for the majority of the battle and I'll put my bottom dollar on the Protoss winning, even with super saiyan micro from the Terran.
I love the selective eyes of the terran wanting to prove their point. After the engagement, 170ish supply for the terran, 90ish supply for the protoss after a full warp in. All vikings, medivacs, ghosts and pretty much everything that costs gas still left standing. People keep posting ways that a they could deal with the late game army, how to adjust their composition to deal with charglots, but no one wants to hear it.
Also, totally awesome nuke harass. I love nuke harass so much. It is horrible to deal with, but awesome when a terran breaks it out. It is under used in the late game and scary as hell.
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On May 07 2012 11:07 Reval wrote:
It just seems to me like terran have been winning for a long time with mid-game pushes or all-in's and now that protoss are learning to deal with it they've hit a wall.
The era of terran's going 111 every game didn't exactly improve their play.
Why is 1/1/1 being quoted in a topic titled "TvP late-game?", the reason TvP is imbalanced is because TvP LATEGAME is imbalanced, and Terrans rushing with timing attacks not only is way harder to do (attacking is a lot more difficult and risky than defending), but there is no late-game plan for Terrans after that push, it's an all-in for that reason.
We are talking about late-game in this thread, and if it's all the same, I'd gladly see Blizzard throw the majority of Terran all-ins out of the window if it'd get us a usable late-game army composition that wasn't total horse crap.
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On May 07 2012 11:09 InoyouS2 wrote:
That's an all-in build, and it got nerfed into the ground.
Since when was 111 nerfed "into the ground"???? It's by FAR the strongest XvP all-in there is: very difficult to stop even when scouted well in advance. Immortal range buff and the new proposed observer build time would be the only indirect nerfs I can think of that relate to the 111.
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On May 07 2012 11:11 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 10:46 InoyouS2 wrote:On May 07 2012 10:32 Fencer710 wrote:On May 07 2012 10:27 InoyouS2 wrote:On May 07 2012 10:07 Talack wrote:On May 07 2012 09:58 GinDo wrote:On May 07 2012 09:49 Fencer710 wrote:On May 07 2012 09:45 DwindleFlip wrote:
I cant beat protoss at all. I can out produce them, out macro them, out resource them, harass them... HT + colossus, is too powerful. Terran is just too weak.
I have nothing kind to say about David Kim, so i wont. Mass HT/Colossus? Have you tried 14+ vikings and 15+ ghosts for mass EMP? You do realize that's 58 supply? 58 supply plus 80 workers leaves around 62 supply for MMM. Thats about 15 Maruader and 30 marines and 1 medivac. You might win the 1st engagement, but then Protoss warps in a mass ground army and then your screwed because you dumped all your supply into specialized Ghost and Vikings. Late-game you should be dropping workers down to 50 or so and suplimenting with mules. Freeing up an additional 30 supply. Combine this with rallies into their base will allow you to at least break even vs their reinforcements. (And going back to my previous post, if it's this late in the game stop with making so many marines and go into more ghost for the zealots. your army value will increase alot and they do considerably more dps to the zealot wall than marines would.) The Terran never gets a chance to get to this stage, Protoss 1-a deathballs with fast upgrades just flatten the Terran, the Terran has become more like the Zerg in a sense now, because it must be constantly trading COST EFFECTIVELY with the Protoss deathball, and the problem with this is that chargelots only cost 100 minerals, while the really hard hitting Protoss units are sitting WAAAAAAAY at the back, just slaughtering everything that doesn't run backwards. I liked avilo's post a lot, maybe take 1-2 of the suggestions and it would actually be balanced. The units I'd REALLY love to see used for Terran in TvP are BC, raven and reaper, I think TvZ atm is very balanced and is my favourite matchup to play and watch, but TvP is a joke atm. I recommend watching this game, quoted from a post by NrGmonk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=os0ggYkHVvM&feature=plcp + Show Spoiler +In this game, Happy basically turtles on 3-4 bases after a failed Ghost timing attack, all while massing 20+ ghosts for Snipe, EMP, and DPS against Zealots, as well as 14+ Vikings to take care of the Colossus and Observers. He barely does any drops at all, but still wins the game very easily, as well as being on fewer bases the majority of the time. Why are you posting this video as an example of TvP??? The Protoss had a TERRIBLE engagement, truly awful, he wasn't decisive at all and lost a lot of crucial, high DPS units, yet h e still managed to kill every Terran unit except the majority of the ghosts with just chargelots.Now go look at all the other games out there where the Protoss engages the Terran and actually fights for the majority of the battle and I'll put my bottom dollar on the Protoss winning, even with super saiyan micro from the Terran. I love the selective eyes of the terran wanting to prove their point. After the engagement, 170ish supply for the terran, 90ish supply for the protoss after a full warp in. All vikings, medivacs, ghosts and pretty much everything that costs gas still left standing. People keep posting ways that a they could deal with the late game army, how to adjust their composition to deal with charglots, but no one wants to hear it. Also, totally awesome nuke harass. I love nuke harass so much. It is horrible to deal with, but awesome when a terran breaks it out. It is under used in the late game and scary as hell.
It was 150 to 112 after the engagement, and as I've said before, the majority of the engagement the Protoss was running away because he fucked up, bad. Terrans needing to rely on some dumb Protoss player screwing up with an a-move army might work sometimes, but seeing as it's a completely uncontrollable factor it just makes it even harder to deal with at high levels of play.
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On May 07 2012 10:46 InoyouS2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 10:32 Fencer710 wrote:On May 07 2012 10:27 InoyouS2 wrote:On May 07 2012 10:07 Talack wrote:On May 07 2012 09:58 GinDo wrote:On May 07 2012 09:49 Fencer710 wrote:On May 07 2012 09:45 DwindleFlip wrote:
I cant beat protoss at all. I can out produce them, out macro them, out resource them, harass them... HT + colossus, is too powerful. Terran is just too weak.
I have nothing kind to say about David Kim, so i wont. Mass HT/Colossus? Have you tried 14+ vikings and 15+ ghosts for mass EMP? You do realize that's 58 supply? 58 supply plus 80 workers leaves around 62 supply for MMM. Thats about 15 Maruader and 30 marines and 1 medivac. You might win the 1st engagement, but then Protoss warps in a mass ground army and then your screwed because you dumped all your supply into specialized Ghost and Vikings. Late-game you should be dropping workers down to 50 or so and suplimenting with mules. Freeing up an additional 30 supply. Combine this with rallies into their base will allow you to at least break even vs their reinforcements. (And going back to my previous post, if it's this late in the game stop with making so many marines and go into more ghost for the zealots. your army value will increase alot and they do considerably more dps to the zealot wall than marines would.) The Terran never gets a chance to get to this stage, Protoss 1-a deathballs with fast upgrades just flatten the Terran, the Terran has become more like the Zerg in a sense now, because it must be constantly trading COST EFFECTIVELY with the Protoss deathball, and the problem with this is that chargelots only cost 100 minerals, while the really hard hitting Protoss units are sitting WAAAAAAAY at the back, just slaughtering everything that doesn't run backwards. I liked avilo's post a lot, maybe take 1-2 of the suggestions and it would actually be balanced. The units I'd REALLY love to see used for Terran in TvP are BC, raven and reaper, I think TvZ atm is very balanced and is my favourite matchup to play and watch, but TvP is a joke atm. I recommend watching this game, quoted from a post by NrGmonk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=os0ggYkHVvM&feature=plcp + Show Spoiler +In this game, Happy basically turtles on 3-4 bases after a failed Ghost timing attack, all while massing 20+ ghosts for Snipe, EMP, and DPS against Zealots, as well as 14+ Vikings to take care of the Colossus and Observers. He barely does any drops at all, but still wins the game very easily, as well as being on fewer bases the majority of the time. Why are you posting this video as an example of TvP??? The Protoss had a TERRIBLE engagement, truly awful, he wasn't decisive at all and lost a lot of crucial, high DPS units, yet he still managed to kill every Terran unit except the majority of the ghosts with just chargelots. Now go look at all the other games out there where the Protoss engages the Terran and actually fights for the majority of the battle and I'll put my bottom dollar on the Protoss winning, even with super saiyan micro from the Terran.
Exactly. Keeping your Ghosts alive is as important as a Protoss keeping his HT's and or Colossus alive, since they're basically always useful against Protoss, regardless of the composition he's going for. Stalkers? EMP takes away half their HP, and they're complete crap against Marauders. HT's? EMP and Snipe. Chargelots? EMP and auto-attack. Archons? EMP. Colossus are the only unit where Ghosts aren't that useful, and they can be nullified by a large Viking count.
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[quoteIt just seems to me like terran have been winning for a long time with mid-game pushes or all-in's and now that protoss are learning to deal with it they've hit a wall.
The era of terran's going 111 every game didn't exactly improve their play.][/quote]
Protoss didn't really learn to deal with it. GSL just made bigger maps with narrower chokes. Bring back the Aug/Oct maps (with gold bases!!!) and you will see protoss getting hammered early/mid game by terrans. During that period, the maps were terran favored, but I feel that they have tilt a bit too much towards protoss now. But again, balancing maps is like balancing units, it also affects the other matchups. Specifically, smaller maps/ wider ramps/exposed thirds will tilt PvZ as well. P's 2 base timings vs 3rd of Z might be too strong. Or the max roach might be too hard to deal with for P if they need a lot more sentries to FF (lower their DPS).
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On May 07 2012 11:13 KingLol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 11:09 InoyouS2 wrote:
That's an all-in build, and it got nerfed into the ground.
Since when was 111 nerfed "into the ground"???? It's by FAR the strongest XvP all-in there is: very difficult to stop even when scouted well in advance. Immortal range buff and the new proposed observer build time would be the only indirect nerfs I can think of that relate to the 111.
The immortal counters the 1/1/1 nicely, also the fact that the strongest tactic against Protoss is an all-in further reinforces the late-game issue.
Anyway, been fun, love seeing people try and come up with possible buffs to add more units into the army composition a Terran can choose in TvP, I look forward to a day when TvP late-game doesn't look the same in every match I watch.
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EPT
