EPT
. It will have to be some transition out of conc shell marauder into something else. Blizz tested marauders without conc shell in beta, it made 1 base immortal rush pushes too good hance the cheap 50/50 upgrade cost. Game has come a long way though so maybe something can work. Marauders are a staple unit though and first it must be confirmed by some better players if this is actually a big problem.
TvP Lategame comment from Blizzard - Page 77
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babyToSS
233 Posts
It will have to be some transition out of conc shell marauder into something else. Blizz tested marauders without conc shell in beta, it made 1 base immortal rush pushes too good hance the cheap 50/50 upgrade cost. Game has come a long way though so maybe something can work. Marauders are a staple unit though and first it must be confirmed by some better players if this is actually a big problem. | ||
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babyToSS
233 Posts
Basically the zealot charge and conc shell AI interact with each other to automatically distribute the damage evenly across all the zealots verus the zealots on the front tanking damage, dying and then the next wave taking their place. This is most likely why zealots are so tanky against Bio. Edit: I could make a thread about it if people think this is worth discussing separately. | ||
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SnipedSoul
Canada2158 Posts
On May 08 2012 15:07 babyToSS wrote: I tried some chartgelot vs MMM battles in unit tester and it is a combination of charge and concussive shell. Here is what happens, the zealots that get hit, get slowed and the rest of them overtake these slowed zealots and charge up. Then your kiting bio starts shooting these full health zealots, which get slowed and then the zealots behind them charge up and start tanking damage. Basically the zealot charge and conc shell AI interact with each other to automatically distribute the damage evenly across all the zealots verus the zealots on the front tanking damage, dying and then the next wave taking their place. This is most likely why zealots are so tanky against Bio. Edit: I could make a thread about it if people think this is worth discussing separately. You should consider testing if zealots start to recharge their shields once there are enough of them rotating through. Even a few seconds of shield recharging could make a big difference. | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
On May 08 2012 15:07 babyToSS wrote: I tried some chartgelot vs MMM battles in unit tester and it is a combination of charge and concussive shell. Here is what happens, the zealots that get hit, get slowed and the rest of them overtake these slowed zealots and charge up. Then your kiting bio starts shooting these full health zealots, which get slowed and then the zealots behind them charge up and start tanking damage. Basically the zealot charge and conc shell AI interact with each other to automatically distribute the damage evenly across all the zealots verus the zealots on the front tanking damage, dying and then the next wave taking their place. This is most likely why zealots are so tanky against Bio. Edit: I could make a thread about it if people think this is worth discussing separately. Hmm, makes me wonder if incorporating a few Hellions (not a ton, say 6-8) into the MMM ball could help deal with this. Even the Zealots in the back would still get damaged. | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On May 08 2012 15:07 babyToSS wrote: I tried some chartgelot vs MMM battles in unit tester and it is a combination of charge and concussive shell. Here is what happens, the zealots that get hit, get slowed and the rest of them overtake these slowed zealots and charge up. Then your kiting bio starts shooting these full health zealots, which get slowed and then the zealots behind them charge up and start tanking damage. Basically the zealot charge and conc shell AI interact with each other to automatically distribute the damage evenly across all the zealots verus the zealots on the front tanking damage, dying and then the next wave taking their place. This is most likely why zealots are so tanky against Bio. Edit: I could make a thread about it if people think this is worth discussing separately. I actually wonder, if you have a very good concave(well basically line instead of ball) and many rauders, I'd then assume that the conc shelled zlots can't be overtaken by the ones in the back? But yer, it's really frustrating seeing all the red units get automatically moved to the back, I'm always like "ffs they were almost dead!" especially when they start recharging shields again while im still kiting for my life :/ Edit: and skipping conc shells is not an option. You can feel it very much, especially in the midgame and when charge just finishes how vital it is. You don't know what you have until you forget to research it. | ||
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pedduck
Thailand468 Posts
So to say that one race has an advantage midgame would mean that race can have better econ, tech, army size in the midgame. I don't see that terran has that, the same goes for protoss late game aswell. I am not on any side about balance discussion, I also agree that the game is not up to sc1 standard. However, in sc1 tvp, if toss let terran get 3 base with no setback, toss will be in trouble late game too. I didn't see anyone complain about that. The game may not be100% balance but no one force us to play anyspecific race either. So take it easy guy. | ||
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LatsyrC
Haiti76 Posts
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
On May 08 2012 16:25 Thezzy wrote: Hmm, makes me wonder if incorporating a few Hellions (not a ton, say 6-8) into the MMM ball could help deal with this. Even the Zealots in the back would still get damaged. More Marines and or Reapers would be a much better idea. They have instant attacks and very fast ones, so very little overkill, and they just do more damage up-front than Marauders or Hellions. Hellion disadvantages: They sprint ahead of your army and die immediately if you don't babysit them. They die to any amount of damage from any Protoss unit, since they don't share upgrades with Bio. They do a grand total of 15 damage per Zealot they hit with each shot with BF without weapon upgrades on the Zealot' HP. Their DPS is incredibly dependant on being in a choke or there being a ton of Zealots in a row. Requires more APM to make, since you have to get BF upgrade, and then switch the factory onto a reactor in order to make a non-zero amount of Hellions. Advantages of Hellions: Slightly more DPS than Marines and Marauders against Zealots if they have BF upgrade. Now, let's compare this with Reapers. Disadvantages of Reapers: Takes a long time to build. May get slightly ahead of your army, and die a little too quickly. Advantages of Reapers: Can be built from techlab Barracks. Does extremely high DPS against Zealots for supply. Has 5 more HP than a Marine, does not need to stim, so better in drawn out engagements. Shares upgrades with Marine, Marauder, and Ghost. Provides a viable army unit gas-dump. | ||
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architecture
United States643 Posts
The answer is not hellions or reapers or BC. It's ghosts. With mass ghosts (30+), you can field an army 50% more expensive than the P army. Mass ghost is the best unit against every P composition, with the exception of Colo, which you need to match in Viking count. | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On May 08 2012 16:35 pedduck wrote: I am not quite under the logic behind the statement "one race has an advantage midgame whike other race has it in late game". That is because the advantage in it self is a trade off. One can choose the economy advantage with a trade off for map control or army size. All three race can choose to have bigger army mid game by giving up their tech or econ. So to say that one race has an advantage midgame would mean that race can have better econ, tech, army size in the midgame. The same goes for protoss late game aswell. I am not on any side about balance discussion, I also agree that the game is not up to sc1 standard. However, in sc1 tvp, if toss let terran get 3 base with no setback, toss will be in trouble late game too. I didn't see anyone complain about that. The game may not be100% balance but no one force us to play anyspecific race either. So take it easy guy. People compared TvP SC2 to PvT BW since there are certain similarities between the two. I admittedly am not a real big BW person, but TvP is one of my favourite MUs in BW though. The comparison between the two isn't really that good though. I mean in BW, the deathball is sure as scary(heck probably scarier) but it is _very_ immobile and reinforces very slowly. In SC2, the retention of gas units is pretty high for the toss, simply because you have a 2nd wave on tank units ready to be warped in as the fight starts. There is also the fact you have a ton of chrono to throw around. Add onto it that you have arbiters that are a lot more threatening than ghosts(since you can't really get to the hts, since they only really come out to play when the fight has begun). I mean just yesterday, I went up to 5 bases, with 6 OCs, 3 base scvs(and began saccing a few), sniped his (late) 3rd once. He cannons up, gets all his upgrades and moves out with 200 deathball. I spent the rest of the game denting his army, while he killed mine like 4 times... I mean I killed his collossi a couple of times, got a few good emps on a bunch of hts and the archons, but there were always those hts behind which couldn't be reached, which had a few storms ready, which changed the battle. I mean that's only my mid master experience, but it is very frustrating when you outplay someone, but he just turtles up and rips you a new one... | ||
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SolidMoose
United States1240 Posts
On May 08 2012 16:42 architecture wrote: Once again: The answer is not hellions or reapers or BC. It's ghosts. With mass ghosts (30+), you can field an army 50% more expensive than the P army. Mass ghost is the best unit against every P composition, with the exception of Colo, which you need to match in Viking count. Getting 30+ ghosts isn't even remotely realistic. Having 8-10 consistently is hard enough with their ridiculously high cost and how easily they die.. I'm trying to delve into reapers, but I need a lot more games to really test it out. It does have a lot of benefits if you can get a maxed army with reapers replacing marines. | ||
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Qibla
Australia343 Posts
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On May 08 2012 13:51 cydial wrote: Yes, because instead of playing better the world should change just for fucking me. Welcome to a game that is actually hard, where you either improve, quit, or complain. Or switch to protoss? Because that is an actual alternative at those levels of skill. On May 08 2012 14:26 babyToSS wrote: I posted this in the strategy section but feel it will do a lot of good in this thread. In big ball zealot heavy TvP engagements, I have noticed the concussive shell hurting the terran bio-ball quite a few times. Basically the front line of chargelots take damage and are slowed, the next line of chargelots overtake them and they start tanking the bio ball. Then this next line is slowed and more full health chargelots overtake and start tanking. I feel this is a pretty big factor in why zealots tank so much damage from MMM, where instead of the waves of zealot being blown apart, they alternate between each other and distribute the damage among themselves. Has anyone else experienced this effect? Yes actually. I made a post explaining this and trying to explain why chargelots were awesome back in 2010 when protosses were spamming out mass stalkers and colossi (guess why terrans are so marauder heavy) It took protosses a year or more to figure out that chargelots were pretty good, and now that they have, combined with map changes, misc nerfs and buffs, and we're in this situation. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=146207#5 Here's the specific post. On May 08 2012 12:22 Fencer710 wrote: If you look at the metagame, also note that the majority of those terrans are going basically mass marauder with small marine, small medivac, small viking, small ghost. Note what Marauders are good against. Now note what Protoss are not building a lot of. Metagame is what's going on. Not imbalance. Terrans have been going marine heavier for ages now. The problem is that marines die in droves if any number of colossi or storm are out on the field. A single Storm hitting a good chunk of your marines is enough to destroy your army in such a way that the game becomes unrecoverable. Marine heavy doesn't work against the colossus, and the issue with the colossus is that by the time vikings have killed them they will have murdered your marine force. On May 08 2012 16:58 SolidMoose wrote: Getting 30+ ghosts isn't even remotely realistic. Having 8-10 consistently is hard enough with their ridiculously high cost and how easily they die.. I'm trying to delve into reapers, but I need a lot more games to really test it out. It does have a lot of benefits if you can get a maxed army with reapers replacing marines. You should watch some Thorzain TvPs on Shakuras plateau. He goes reapers quite often. It might be map dependant tho. Shakuras is godlike for reapers since there are so many cliffs. | ||
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malaan
365 Posts
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Hoodlum
United States350 Posts
On May 08 2012 19:01 malaan wrote: the future of TVP in SC2 imo is mech. If you can just get to mid-late game with upgraded mech army the matchup becomes somewhat even - you have an extremely cost effective army. The problem with mech is tanks aren't super effective vs protoss and thors lose a lot of health from feedbacks unless you attack as soon as they pop... Ghost mech can be pretty good so you can emp your thors but its hard to pull of on maps that the third is somewhat distanced. Warp Prism play is a huge pain for mech players as well. Even goody gave up on mech and is now using bio. | ||
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Torra
Norway469 Posts
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razy
Russian Federation899 Posts
On May 08 2012 16:37 LatsyrC wrote: isnt this the same as TvP on BW? if protoss let the terran goes to late game with no damage, protoss is pretty much in a up hill battler, MECH IN BW with 3-3 in upgrades put protoss in a pretty bad position... and no one complains about that, why Terrans in SC2 keep crying about Protoss? no. Check out Best's games. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
Cliff heavy maps are really nice for reaper harassment as well. Reaper makes kiting against Chargelots super effective as they waste their attacks on Marauders, while the reapers dish out their damage. Only the start of the kiting is a bit more complicated. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
Shame reaper speed is getting removed in HotS, so all their viablity goes away in that regard  | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On May 08 2012 16:24 SnipedSoul wrote: You should consider testing if zealots start to recharge their shields once there are enough of them rotating through. Even a few seconds of shield recharging could make a big difference. This might be slightly off-topic, but it's a question that has been on my mind for quite some time: If you emp protoss units, does this count as damage (as in shield recharge starts 8s after the emp) or does it simply drain the shields and they instantly start to recharge? | ||
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