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On May 09 2012 03:09 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 02:26 Plansix wrote:On May 09 2012 02:21 InoyouS2 wrote:
Protoss posters, (especially Fencer710) are just trying to stir the pot, they see the imbalance, it's clear enough, but they don't care because it helps their ladder rating. How about the Protoss players here try a bit of TvP for once? I know, I know, you're spoiled by your warp gates and chrono boosts and chargelot 1-a, and you don't want your ladder rating to drop :D, but until I see some replays from someone in this thread who has said something along the lines of "build more ghosts" you have zero credibility and nobody will listen to you.
Back to the problem at hand:
Nerf bio play, it's fucking boring, buff Terran T3.
Bio play's strength is in mobility, therefore it does not need to be a full army composition, you should just be able to start with bio and tech to a more cost effective army comp. This also means Blizzard can nerf bio to hell (nerf marauder damage, nerf marine damage, nerf marauder HP...) and it won't have that big of an effect on the match-up because bio's strength is in avoiding engagements.
Lets see some mech, some skyterran, something other than retarded bioballs, bring some element of positioning and tactics to TvP...
Fencer710 plays terran... I just added him on Bnet. He is a 400 pt low master Terran. I'm sure he knows more about late game TvP then all of us rank 1 master and gm terrans.
yes ,he is lol.
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On May 09 2012 03:09 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 02:26 Plansix wrote:On May 09 2012 02:21 InoyouS2 wrote:
Protoss posters, (especially Fencer710) are just trying to stir the pot, they see the imbalance, it's clear enough, but they don't care because it helps their ladder rating. How about the Protoss players here try a bit of TvP for once? I know, I know, you're spoiled by your warp gates and chrono boosts and chargelot 1-a, and you don't want your ladder rating to drop :D, but until I see some replays from someone in this thread who has said something along the lines of "build more ghosts" you have zero credibility and nobody will listen to you.
Back to the problem at hand:
Nerf bio play, it's fucking boring, buff Terran T3.
Bio play's strength is in mobility, therefore it does not need to be a full army composition, you should just be able to start with bio and tech to a more cost effective army comp. This also means Blizzard can nerf bio to hell (nerf marauder damage, nerf marine damage, nerf marauder HP...) and it won't have that big of an effect on the match-up because bio's strength is in avoiding engagements.
Lets see some mech, some skyterran, something other than retarded bioballs, bring some element of positioning and tactics to TvP...
Fencer710 plays terran... I just added him on Bnet. He is a 400 pt low master Terran. I'm sure he knows more about late game TvP then all of us rank 1 master and gm terrans.
See LastShadow's late-game TvP. It's basically what I've been saying to do all this time.
Also that game from Happy I quoted a while back.
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On May 09 2012 03:18 nOondn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 03:09 zmansman17 wrote:On May 09 2012 02:26 Plansix wrote:On May 09 2012 02:21 InoyouS2 wrote:
Protoss posters, (especially Fencer710) are just trying to stir the pot, they see the imbalance, it's clear enough, but they don't care because it helps their ladder rating. How about the Protoss players here try a bit of TvP for once? I know, I know, you're spoiled by your warp gates and chrono boosts and chargelot 1-a, and you don't want your ladder rating to drop :D, but until I see some replays from someone in this thread who has said something along the lines of "build more ghosts" you have zero credibility and nobody will listen to you.
Back to the problem at hand:
Nerf bio play, it's fucking boring, buff Terran T3.
Bio play's strength is in mobility, therefore it does not need to be a full army composition, you should just be able to start with bio and tech to a more cost effective army comp. This also means Blizzard can nerf bio to hell (nerf marauder damage, nerf marine damage, nerf marauder HP...) and it won't have that big of an effect on the match-up because bio's strength is in avoiding engagements.
Lets see some mech, some skyterran, something other than retarded bioballs, bring some element of positioning and tactics to TvP...
Fencer710 plays terran... I just added him on Bnet. He is a 400 pt low master Terran. I'm sure he knows more about late game TvP then all of us rank 1 master and gm terrans. yes ,he is lol.
So wait, you are saying that because you have a higher rank than him but you are in the same league, his argument is invalid? Isn't his argument that he emulates the play styles of pros that are having success in the match up? Could you expand on how that is a bad argument?
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ghosts vs templar will be the most important micro battles of sc2 TvP for a long time. Protoss cannot compete with the dps of terran bioball w/ heavy medivacs w/o heavy splash, colossus is normally dealt with because starport is one of the most common early techs for terran. I honestly think 80% of tvps ive seen lately depend heavily on ghost vs templar for the outcome of the game.
just an example from today, + Show Spoiler +JYP in excellent position and ahead much of the game, has a scary army with templar, jjakji sees all of them, uses excellent emp + snipes, JYP has no more splash other than archons and the entire remainder of his army melts in seconds.
I truly feel tvp to be balanced pretty well at my level, i play terran and masters.
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On May 09 2012 03:38 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 03:18 nOondn wrote:On May 09 2012 03:09 zmansman17 wrote:On May 09 2012 02:26 Plansix wrote:On May 09 2012 02:21 InoyouS2 wrote:
Protoss posters, (especially Fencer710) are just trying to stir the pot, they see the imbalance, it's clear enough, but they don't care because it helps their ladder rating. How about the Protoss players here try a bit of TvP for once? I know, I know, you're spoiled by your warp gates and chrono boosts and chargelot 1-a, and you don't want your ladder rating to drop :D, but until I see some replays from someone in this thread who has said something along the lines of "build more ghosts" you have zero credibility and nobody will listen to you.
Back to the problem at hand:
Nerf bio play, it's fucking boring, buff Terran T3.
Bio play's strength is in mobility, therefore it does not need to be a full army composition, you should just be able to start with bio and tech to a more cost effective army comp. This also means Blizzard can nerf bio to hell (nerf marauder damage, nerf marine damage, nerf marauder HP...) and it won't have that big of an effect on the match-up because bio's strength is in avoiding engagements.
Lets see some mech, some skyterran, something other than retarded bioballs, bring some element of positioning and tactics to TvP...
Fencer710 plays terran... I just added him on Bnet. He is a 400 pt low master Terran. I'm sure he knows more about late game TvP then all of us rank 1 master and gm terrans. yes ,he is lol. So wait, you are saying that because you have a higher rank than him but you are in the same league, his argument is invalid? Isn't his argument that he emulates the play styles of pros that are having success in the match up? Could you expand on how that is a bad argument?
Did you think korean master = Na master ? lol.
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I truly feel tvp not to be balanced pretty well at my level, i play terran and diamonds.
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Don't cry imbalance just use vultures - ooohhhh
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On May 09 2012 04:18 nOondn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 03:38 Plansix wrote:On May 09 2012 03:18 nOondn wrote:On May 09 2012 03:09 zmansman17 wrote:On May 09 2012 02:26 Plansix wrote:On May 09 2012 02:21 InoyouS2 wrote:
Protoss posters, (especially Fencer710) are just trying to stir the pot, they see the imbalance, it's clear enough, but they don't care because it helps their ladder rating. How about the Protoss players here try a bit of TvP for once? I know, I know, you're spoiled by your warp gates and chrono boosts and chargelot 1-a, and you don't want your ladder rating to drop :D, but until I see some replays from someone in this thread who has said something along the lines of "build more ghosts" you have zero credibility and nobody will listen to you.
Back to the problem at hand:
Nerf bio play, it's fucking boring, buff Terran T3.
Bio play's strength is in mobility, therefore it does not need to be a full army composition, you should just be able to start with bio and tech to a more cost effective army comp. This also means Blizzard can nerf bio to hell (nerf marauder damage, nerf marine damage, nerf marauder HP...) and it won't have that big of an effect on the match-up because bio's strength is in avoiding engagements.
Lets see some mech, some skyterran, something other than retarded bioballs, bring some element of positioning and tactics to TvP...
Fencer710 plays terran... I just added him on Bnet. He is a 400 pt low master Terran. I'm sure he knows more about late game TvP then all of us rank 1 master and gm terrans. yes ,he is lol. So wait, you are saying that because you have a higher rank than him but you are in the same league, his argument is invalid? Isn't his argument that he emulates the play styles of pros that are having success in the match up? Could you expand on how that is a bad argument? Did you think korean master = Na master ? lol.
Ah, well I was not aware you were masters on the Korea server. That you are most likely more experienced and shoudl have a better understanding of the match up. Still, I prefer the attitude of Fencer710, who seems more interested in improving and helping others improve or try to understand the match up better. You may have a higher level of play than him, better control, macro or understanding, but he appears to be willing to cut his teeth on trying new things and improving his play.
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The MU is balanced, the stats can't be argued with.
The problem is 1) Its not fair and 2) Styles are forced on too both races.
Now I will elaborate:
1. Not fair- By this I simply mean Terran has more actions to perform than protoss at any given point in the game, in a sense terran has to "work harder" for the win than toss. For the better part of a year this infuriated me but now I don't care, it is what it is.
2. This is the major one that if not fixed in HoTS will cement this MU as predictable and stale. I am not going to state the reasons why, they've been posted over and over and over again in this thread. In short though, Terran is the agressor, and Protoss is the defender... always. Do I really have to state why this is a problem? If so I will but I really think it is self evident. However the mech units in HoTS seem like they might take pressure off Terran always having to be aggressive and the new Toss units/mechanics seem to do the same for them- not making them not have to be defensive all the damn time.
Only time will tell, can't wait for more HoTS info.
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On May 09 2012 04:36 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 04:18 nOondn wrote:On May 09 2012 03:38 Plansix wrote:On May 09 2012 03:18 nOondn wrote:On May 09 2012 03:09 zmansman17 wrote:On May 09 2012 02:26 Plansix wrote:On May 09 2012 02:21 InoyouS2 wrote:
Protoss posters, (especially Fencer710) are just trying to stir the pot, they see the imbalance, it's clear enough, but they don't care because it helps their ladder rating. How about the Protoss players here try a bit of TvP for once? I know, I know, you're spoiled by your warp gates and chrono boosts and chargelot 1-a, and you don't want your ladder rating to drop :D, but until I see some replays from someone in this thread who has said something along the lines of "build more ghosts" you have zero credibility and nobody will listen to you.
Back to the problem at hand:
Nerf bio play, it's fucking boring, buff Terran T3.
Bio play's strength is in mobility, therefore it does not need to be a full army composition, you should just be able to start with bio and tech to a more cost effective army comp. This also means Blizzard can nerf bio to hell (nerf marauder damage, nerf marine damage, nerf marauder HP...) and it won't have that big of an effect on the match-up because bio's strength is in avoiding engagements.
Lets see some mech, some skyterran, something other than retarded bioballs, bring some element of positioning and tactics to TvP...
Fencer710 plays terran... I just added him on Bnet. He is a 400 pt low master Terran. I'm sure he knows more about late game TvP then all of us rank 1 master and gm terrans. yes ,he is lol. So wait, you are saying that because you have a higher rank than him but you are in the same league, his argument is invalid? Isn't his argument that he emulates the play styles of pros that are having success in the match up? Could you expand on how that is a bad argument? Did you think korean master = Na master ? lol. Ah, well I was not aware you were masters on the Korea server. That you are most likely more experienced and shoudl have a better understanding of the match up. Still, I prefer the attitude of Fencer710, who seems more interested in improving and helping others improve or try to understand the match up better. You may have a higher level of play than him, better control, macro or understanding, but he appears to be willing to cut his teeth on trying new things and improving his play. He did not try to understand the match up better, you can judge from his post ... He is truly TvP Bonjowa lol,He act like he know shit everything but If you have a plenty of time you should watch his replay (http://drop.sc/169864) and you will know that he didn't even know about how to play in the early game (blindly play i would say)
I open with LastShadow's CC first into 6 barracks, he opens up 1gate FE and plays defensively. I decide not to push with marine/scv at his front because I don't know what kind of tech he's going for if any, and do a 12 minute timing push at his front
This is not how to play the game if you truely know about this match up .He didn't even scout/scan/bunker at all lol.
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I stoped playing due to TvP. If I ever come back will be playing zerg.
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On May 09 2012 04:42 captainwaffles wrote:
1. Not fair- By this I simply mean Terran has more actions to perform than protoss at any given point in the game, in a sense terran has to "work harder" for the win than toss. For the better part of a year this infuriated me but now I don't care, it is what it is.
So you mean to say here that, at the highest level of play, protoss players who have equivalent APM to their terran counterparts but are still losing the game are wasting their APM on things they don't "have to do" (whatever that means)?
Or are you talking about a lower level of play (at which point, I will add: 1-1-1)?
Do you have anything new to indicate that this sentiment (which just about every terran and just about no protoss agrees with) is anything more than bias?
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On May 09 2012 04:45 nOondn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 04:36 Plansix wrote:On May 09 2012 04:18 nOondn wrote:On May 09 2012 03:38 Plansix wrote:On May 09 2012 03:18 nOondn wrote:On May 09 2012 03:09 zmansman17 wrote:On May 09 2012 02:26 Plansix wrote:On May 09 2012 02:21 InoyouS2 wrote:
Protoss posters, (especially Fencer710) are just trying to stir the pot, they see the imbalance, it's clear enough, but they don't care because it helps their ladder rating. How about the Protoss players here try a bit of TvP for once? I know, I know, you're spoiled by your warp gates and chrono boosts and chargelot 1-a, and you don't want your ladder rating to drop :D, but until I see some replays from someone in this thread who has said something along the lines of "build more ghosts" you have zero credibility and nobody will listen to you.
Back to the problem at hand:
Nerf bio play, it's fucking boring, buff Terran T3.
Bio play's strength is in mobility, therefore it does not need to be a full army composition, you should just be able to start with bio and tech to a more cost effective army comp. This also means Blizzard can nerf bio to hell (nerf marauder damage, nerf marine damage, nerf marauder HP...) and it won't have that big of an effect on the match-up because bio's strength is in avoiding engagements.
Lets see some mech, some skyterran, something other than retarded bioballs, bring some element of positioning and tactics to TvP...
Fencer710 plays terran... I just added him on Bnet. He is a 400 pt low master Terran. I'm sure he knows more about late game TvP then all of us rank 1 master and gm terrans. yes ,he is lol. So wait, you are saying that because you have a higher rank than him but you are in the same league, his argument is invalid? Isn't his argument that he emulates the play styles of pros that are having success in the match up? Could you expand on how that is a bad argument? Did you think korean master = Na master ? lol. Ah, well I was not aware you were masters on the Korea server. That you are most likely more experienced and shoudl have a better understanding of the match up. Still, I prefer the attitude of Fencer710, who seems more interested in improving and helping others improve or try to understand the match up better. You may have a higher level of play than him, better control, macro or understanding, but he appears to be willing to cut his teeth on trying new things and improving his play. He did not try to understand the match up better, you can judge from his post ... He is truly TvP Bonjowa lol,He act like he know shit everything but If you have a plenty of time you should watch his replay (http://drop.sc/169864) and you will know that he didn't even know about how to play in the early game (blindly play i would say) Show nested quote +I open with LastShadow's CC first into 6 barracks, he opens up 1gate FE and plays defensively. I decide not to push with marine/scv at his front because I don't know what kind of tech he's going for if any, and do a 12 minute timing push at his front This is not how to play the game if you truely know about this match up .He didn't even scout/scan/bunker at all lol.
It's actually OK to do that, since with that build you can cut a few marines and start a 7 minute third base, so long as you're sure he's not going 6gate or a 3 colossus timing, ala squirtle. This is because you have so much economy and so many units that it counteracts any tech he can have at any point in time aside from DT's, since every map in this map pool lets you force an engagement with a large concave or the ability to flank, which is enhanced in TvP since your army is so much faster than his slow Colossus and Templar.
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I support having the game support people actually playing it for its entire duration. Give neither player a reason to attack and they just won't, and you just wind up with nothing happening until you reach the point where the only important aspect of the game is the arbitrary 200 food supply cap.
I hate the blind cries for more macro that the community has always been prone to. Let us play the friggin' game, please, and stop making it progressively harder to do so.
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On May 09 2012 05:29 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 04:45 nOondn wrote:On May 09 2012 04:36 Plansix wrote:On May 09 2012 04:18 nOondn wrote:On May 09 2012 03:38 Plansix wrote:On May 09 2012 03:18 nOondn wrote:On May 09 2012 03:09 zmansman17 wrote:On May 09 2012 02:26 Plansix wrote:On May 09 2012 02:21 InoyouS2 wrote:
Protoss posters, (especially Fencer710) are just trying to stir the pot, they see the imbalance, it's clear enough, but they don't care because it helps their ladder rating. How about the Protoss players here try a bit of TvP for once? I know, I know, you're spoiled by your warp gates and chrono boosts and chargelot 1-a, and you don't want your ladder rating to drop :D, but until I see some replays from someone in this thread who has said something along the lines of "build more ghosts" you have zero credibility and nobody will listen to you.
Back to the problem at hand:
Nerf bio play, it's fucking boring, buff Terran T3.
Bio play's strength is in mobility, therefore it does not need to be a full army composition, you should just be able to start with bio and tech to a more cost effective army comp. This also means Blizzard can nerf bio to hell (nerf marauder damage, nerf marine damage, nerf marauder HP...) and it won't have that big of an effect on the match-up because bio's strength is in avoiding engagements.
Lets see some mech, some skyterran, something other than retarded bioballs, bring some element of positioning and tactics to TvP...
Fencer710 plays terran... I just added him on Bnet. He is a 400 pt low master Terran. I'm sure he knows more about late game TvP then all of us rank 1 master and gm terrans. yes ,he is lol. So wait, you are saying that because you have a higher rank than him but you are in the same league, his argument is invalid? Isn't his argument that he emulates the play styles of pros that are having success in the match up? Could you expand on how that is a bad argument? Did you think korean master = Na master ? lol. Ah, well I was not aware you were masters on the Korea server. That you are most likely more experienced and shoudl have a better understanding of the match up. Still, I prefer the attitude of Fencer710, who seems more interested in improving and helping others improve or try to understand the match up better. You may have a higher level of play than him, better control, macro or understanding, but he appears to be willing to cut his teeth on trying new things and improving his play. He did not try to understand the match up better, you can judge from his post ... He is truly TvP Bonjowa lol,He act like he know shit everything but If you have a plenty of time you should watch his replay (http://drop.sc/169864) and you will know that he didn't even know about how to play in the early game (blindly play i would say) I open with LastShadow's CC first into 6 barracks, he opens up 1gate FE and plays defensively. I decide not to push with marine/scv at his front because I don't know what kind of tech he's going for if any, and do a 12 minute timing push at his front This is not how to play the game if you truely know about this match up .He didn't even scout/scan/bunker at all lol. It's actually OK to do that, since with that build you can cut a few marines and start a 7 minute third base, so long as you're sure he's not going 6gate or a 3 colossus timing, ala squirtle. This is because you have so much economy and so many units that it counteracts any tech he can have at any point in time aside from DT's, since every map in this map pool lets you force an engagement with a large concave or the ability to flank, which is enhanced in TvP since your army is so much faster than his slow Colossus and Templar.
You would die to any all in -_-
and this is funny part of your logic
so long as you're sure he's not going 6gate or a 3 colossus timing, ala squirtle
I open with LastShadow's CC first into 6 barracks, he opens up 1gate FE and plays defensively. I decide not to push with marine/scv at his front because I don't know what kind of tech he's going for if any, and do a 12 minute timing push at his front
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On May 09 2012 05:27 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 04:42 captainwaffles wrote:
1. Not fair- By this I simply mean Terran has more actions to perform than protoss at any given point in the game, in a sense terran has to "work harder" for the win than toss. For the better part of a year this infuriated me but now I don't care, it is what it is.
So you mean to say here that, at the highest level of play, protoss players who have equivalent APM to their terran counterparts but are still losing the game are wasting their APM on things they don't "have to do" (whatever that means)? Or are you talking about a lower level of play (at which point, I will add: 1-1-1)? Do you have anything new to indicate that this sentiment (which just about every terran and just about no protoss agrees with) is anything more than bias?
Open up a TvP replay and see for yourself, or play some TvP's with a friend. It simply takes more APM to play Terran. Its not bias, it...it just is.
You add 1/1/1? I will add any number of toss allins... an allin is easy (comparatively to the other player) to execute- that is a reason why they're so effective, easier to execute, harder to defend.
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On May 09 2012 05:34 nOondn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 05:29 Fencer710 wrote:On May 09 2012 04:45 nOondn wrote:On May 09 2012 04:36 Plansix wrote:On May 09 2012 04:18 nOondn wrote:On May 09 2012 03:38 Plansix wrote:On May 09 2012 03:18 nOondn wrote:On May 09 2012 03:09 zmansman17 wrote:On May 09 2012 02:26 Plansix wrote:On May 09 2012 02:21 InoyouS2 wrote:
Protoss posters, (especially Fencer710) are just trying to stir the pot, they see the imbalance, it's clear enough, but they don't care because it helps their ladder rating. How about the Protoss players here try a bit of TvP for once? I know, I know, you're spoiled by your warp gates and chrono boosts and chargelot 1-a, and you don't want your ladder rating to drop :D, but until I see some replays from someone in this thread who has said something along the lines of "build more ghosts" you have zero credibility and nobody will listen to you.
Back to the problem at hand:
Nerf bio play, it's fucking boring, buff Terran T3.
Bio play's strength is in mobility, therefore it does not need to be a full army composition, you should just be able to start with bio and tech to a more cost effective army comp. This also means Blizzard can nerf bio to hell (nerf marauder damage, nerf marine damage, nerf marauder HP...) and it won't have that big of an effect on the match-up because bio's strength is in avoiding engagements.
Lets see some mech, some skyterran, something other than retarded bioballs, bring some element of positioning and tactics to TvP...
Fencer710 plays terran... I just added him on Bnet. He is a 400 pt low master Terran. I'm sure he knows more about late game TvP then all of us rank 1 master and gm terrans. yes ,he is lol. So wait, you are saying that because you have a higher rank than him but you are in the same league, his argument is invalid? Isn't his argument that he emulates the play styles of pros that are having success in the match up? Could you expand on how that is a bad argument? Did you think korean master = Na master ? lol. Ah, well I was not aware you were masters on the Korea server. That you are most likely more experienced and shoudl have a better understanding of the match up. Still, I prefer the attitude of Fencer710, who seems more interested in improving and helping others improve or try to understand the match up better. You may have a higher level of play than him, better control, macro or understanding, but he appears to be willing to cut his teeth on trying new things and improving his play. He did not try to understand the match up better, you can judge from his post ... He is truly TvP Bonjowa lol,He act like he know shit everything but If you have a plenty of time you should watch his replay (http://drop.sc/169864) and you will know that he didn't even know about how to play in the early game (blindly play i would say) I open with LastShadow's CC first into 6 barracks, he opens up 1gate FE and plays defensively. I decide not to push with marine/scv at his front because I don't know what kind of tech he's going for if any, and do a 12 minute timing push at his front This is not how to play the game if you truely know about this match up .He didn't even scout/scan/bunker at all lol. It's actually OK to do that, since with that build you can cut a few marines and start a 7 minute third base, so long as you're sure he's not going 6gate or a 3 colossus timing, ala squirtle. This is because you have so much economy and so many units that it counteracts any tech he can have at any point in time aside from DT's, since every map in this map pool lets you force an engagement with a large concave or the ability to flank, which is enhanced in TvP since your army is so much faster than his slow Colossus and Templar. You would die to any all in -_- and this is funny part of your logic Show nested quote + so long as you're sure he's not going 6gate or a 3 colossus timing, ala squirtle Show nested quote +I open with LastShadow's CC first into 6 barracks, he opens up 1gate FE and plays defensively. I decide not to push with marine/scv at his front because I don't know what kind of tech he's going for if any, and do a 12 minute timing push at his front Yeah, although this is very solid against any other type of play, which was my point.
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On May 09 2012 05:40 captainwaffles wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 05:27 Treehead wrote:On May 09 2012 04:42 captainwaffles wrote:
1. Not fair- By this I simply mean Terran has more actions to perform than protoss at any given point in the game, in a sense terran has to "work harder" for the win than toss. For the better part of a year this infuriated me but now I don't care, it is what it is.
So you mean to say here that, at the highest level of play, protoss players who have equivalent APM to their terran counterparts but are still losing the game are wasting their APM on things they don't "have to do" (whatever that means)? Or are you talking about a lower level of play (at which point, I will add: 1-1-1)? Do you have anything new to indicate that this sentiment (which just about every terran and just about no protoss agrees with) is anything more than bias? Open up a TvP replay and see for yourself, or play some TvP's with a friend. It simply takes more APM to play Terran. Its not bias, it...it just is. You add 1/1/1? I will add any number of toss allins... an allin is easy (comparatively to the other player) to execute- that is a reason why they're so effective, easier to execute, harder to defend.
The reason I added 1-1-1 was that it's still quite effective at high levels (though not the highest levels) even if they know it's coming. The fact that the Toss allins you mentioned were not once dominating high level PvTs means they are something different: a build which is only powerful because it wasn't scouted. You find the proxy stargate in time - you hold the rush. Holding 1-1-1 is much more difficult - so difficult in fact that scouting 1 bunker and 2 depots sends a protoss into 1-1-1 defense mode (because otherwise they'll die).
I've watched TvPs before. I've played TvPs before. I'm not a pro but I don't think this thread was created because pro terrans were doing so terribly (they're not). I'll assume the sentiment "it just is" means "no, I have nothing to indicate this is bias - and also I'm ignoring your points about protoss pros with high APM because I can't refute them."
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On May 09 2012 05:49 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 05:34 nOondn wrote:On May 09 2012 05:29 Fencer710 wrote:On May 09 2012 04:45 nOondn wrote:On May 09 2012 04:36 Plansix wrote:On May 09 2012 04:18 nOondn wrote:On May 09 2012 03:38 Plansix wrote:On May 09 2012 03:18 nOondn wrote:On May 09 2012 03:09 zmansman17 wrote:On May 09 2012 02:26 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Fencer710 plays terran... I just added him on Bnet. He is a 400 pt low master Terran. I'm sure he knows more about late game TvP then all of us rank 1 master and gm terrans. yes ,he is lol. So wait, you are saying that because you have a higher rank than him but you are in the same league, his argument is invalid? Isn't his argument that he emulates the play styles of pros that are having success in the match up? Could you expand on how that is a bad argument? Did you think korean master = Na master ? lol. Ah, well I was not aware you were masters on the Korea server. That you are most likely more experienced and shoudl have a better understanding of the match up. Still, I prefer the attitude of Fencer710, who seems more interested in improving and helping others improve or try to understand the match up better. You may have a higher level of play than him, better control, macro or understanding, but he appears to be willing to cut his teeth on trying new things and improving his play. He did not try to understand the match up better, you can judge from his post ... He is truly TvP Bonjowa lol,He act like he know shit everything but If you have a plenty of time you should watch his replay (http://drop.sc/169864) and you will know that he didn't even know about how to play in the early game (blindly play i would say) I open with LastShadow's CC first into 6 barracks, he opens up 1gate FE and plays defensively. I decide not to push with marine/scv at his front because I don't know what kind of tech he's going for if any, and do a 12 minute timing push at his front This is not how to play the game if you truely know about this match up .He didn't even scout/scan/bunker at all lol. It's actually OK to do that, since with that build you can cut a few marines and start a 7 minute third base, so long as you're sure he's not going 6gate or a 3 colossus timing, ala squirtle. This is because you have so much economy and so many units that it counteracts any tech he can have at any point in time aside from DT's, since every map in this map pool lets you force an engagement with a large concave or the ability to flank, which is enhanced in TvP since your army is so much faster than his slow Colossus and Templar. You would die to any all in -_- and this is funny part of your logic so long as you're sure he's not going 6gate or a 3 colossus timing, ala squirtle I open with LastShadow's CC first into 6 barracks, he opens up 1gate FE and plays defensively. I decide not to push with marine/scv at his front because I don't know what kind of tech he's going for if any, and do a 12 minute timing push at his front Yeah, although this is very solid against any other type of play, which was my point.
You should ask ls himself about your logic lol, Eventhough he play his build (CC into 6 rax) which is you choice of build in this replay ,but the way he play is different ,He did scout , scan , bunker and more agressive, It's not ok like you said lol.
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On May 09 2012 05:40 captainwaffles wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 05:27 Treehead wrote:On May 09 2012 04:42 captainwaffles wrote:
1. Not fair- By this I simply mean Terran has more actions to perform than protoss at any given point in the game, in a sense terran has to "work harder" for the win than toss. For the better part of a year this infuriated me but now I don't care, it is what it is.
So you mean to say here that, at the highest level of play, protoss players who have equivalent APM to their terran counterparts but are still losing the game are wasting their APM on things they don't "have to do" (whatever that means)? Or are you talking about a lower level of play (at which point, I will add: 1-1-1)? Do you have anything new to indicate that this sentiment (which just about every terran and just about no protoss agrees with) is anything more than bias? Open up a TvP replay and see for yourself, or play some TvP's with a friend. It simply takes more APM to play Terran. Its not bias, it...it just is. You add 1/1/1? I will add any number of toss allins... an allin is easy (comparatively to the other player) to execute- that is a reason why they're so effective, easier to execute, harder to defend.
How about this, since you made the claim, you post the replay of a protoss player with significantly less APM beating a terran in an even match up? Maybe you have higher AMP, but you're really bad at controling you units. It is possible to be really, really fast and also have crappy control.
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