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+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2012 18:50 nOondn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:45 Ushi wrote:
I believe there is so many things wrong with this mob mentality about late game TvP. Sorry if this comes off as a flame in anyway but this is just how I see it.
1) TvP late game is a little harder for the Terran but not impossible
2) The refusal to innovate and simply play better is what separates Koreans from non-Koreans
3) StarCraft is a complex game and stop pretending you have it all figured it out
I guess I should try to explain some of my points. Terrans can hold their own in the late game. I bet its hard when terrible players just rush mmm+viking+ghost and think they've done everything possible to hold off a death ball in the middle of an open map. This is not the only way to play TvP late game despite how many people expect. You can actually perform drops and force the Protoss to split their army which is a common solution. Rather than focusing on the strengths of a Protoss army, Terrans should simply find the weaknesses. Mobility and positioning come into mind.
People refuse to believe mech has any place in the matchup which is insane. It is off the table for 90% of players because all the strategies they've seen and tried failed miserably. This really just means that no one really figured out how to use mech in tvp yet and it is not the same as mech is impossible don't bother. MVP and I believe MKP have opted for some very unique tank play and holding strategic ramps. People may argue these were just parts of mid-game pushes and completely ignore that tanks were pretty good at holding positions on the maps like small chokes. (shocker)
The biggest thing that bothers me and makes me believe most people don't know what they are really talking about is when they talk about the late-game in a bubble. The late-game is a progression from the early and mid-game. In an entire game of opportunities people simply assume, each player macroed perfectly and never really made any outcome-altering moves during the early to mid-game then a protoss player should beat a terran player. This is completely ignoring all the positioning, map balance, map control, etc that a player has at the time. Is it entirely possible a Terran that has map control before a protoss's death push has an advantage because they can control where to drop and flank? What about choosing to engage protoss only at narrow chokes and choosing only to flank from multiple sides? Maybe we should just assume a collosus is melting terran from all 4 angles while storms are perfectly laid and no chances of dodging is available.
I really think Blizzard's response is correct because HotS in on the horizon and they shouldn't bother fixing what really isn't broken. There were periods in Brood War when Zerg found it impossible to play competitively against high level terrans until the brilliance of some bonjwa came and showed an ailing race "how its done." I would believe there was a problem if I never saw a late-game Terran beat a late-game Toss convincingly. I really think it really comes down to something 90+% of the whiners don't quite understand. Execution matters. i want to see replay or it become only theory craft ....
And bad theory craft at that, as drops are actually bad in the current metagame, protoss players know that all they have to do is defend through the mid game, so they've learnt how to defend against drops to the point where those are extremely cost inefficient, ergo you should only drop when you are ahead, or when the protoss has to actually split his army to defend, i.e after a big engagement which left very few units standing(assuming terran won), they DO NOT have to split anything in the late game, because every semi-decent protoss will have templars ready to feedback/storm and a zealot warp-in will crush whatever is left of the drop since they won't be supported by medivacs (no energy in the ones that didn't die), not that mention that dropping just leaves your main army and base vulnerable to a counter attack(which happens to kill a lot of terrans, frequently), and is easier to defend than it's to manage, because you have to stutter step way from simply warped-in zealots(Supernova died vs Hero in Metropolis mainly because of this, he tried to micro multiple drops at the same time which means he had to watch them, while HerO hit his weakened main army whilst feedbacking and warping-in zealots vs the drops, which takes a lot less screen time than dropping).Also, this "terran is stronger in the early game" bullshit has gotten way out of hand, especially in the current map pool where the rush distances are getting bigger and bigger, which btw, do not affect 6-7-8 gate all-ins and 3 gate pressures, now who again is stronger in the early game?Because I don't see working 2 rax pressures anymore, at least, their success is not even slightly close to that of the 3 gate.
Regarding mech : Siege tanks die very fast and don't kill anything protoss related in due time, starting by their most basic unit, the zealot.Anyways, "The biggest thing that bothers me and makes me believe most people don't know what they are really talking about", okay, Mr.Irony.
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I think Blizzard watched MVP play at GSL and was like thats how TVP should be played.
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Hahah this probably means we are going to see even more players switch to Protoss. Bye, bye Terrans in ladder :D
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On May 04 2012 19:25 IshinShishi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2012 18:50 nOondn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:45 Ushi wrote:
I believe there is so many things wrong with this mob mentality about late game TvP. Sorry if this comes off as a flame in anyway but this is just how I see it.
1) TvP late game is a little harder for the Terran but not impossible
2) The refusal to innovate and simply play better is what separates Koreans from non-Koreans
3) StarCraft is a complex game and stop pretending you have it all figured it out
I guess I should try to explain some of my points. Terrans can hold their own in the late game. I bet its hard when terrible players just rush mmm+viking+ghost and think they've done everything possible to hold off a death ball in the middle of an open map. This is not the only way to play TvP late game despite how many people expect. You can actually perform drops and force the Protoss to split their army which is a common solution. Rather than focusing on the strengths of a Protoss army, Terrans should simply find the weaknesses. Mobility and positioning come into mind.
People refuse to believe mech has any place in the matchup which is insane. It is off the table for 90% of players because all the strategies they've seen and tried failed miserably. This really just means that no one really figured out how to use mech in tvp yet and it is not the same as mech is impossible don't bother. MVP and I believe MKP have opted for some very unique tank play and holding strategic ramps. People may argue these were just parts of mid-game pushes and completely ignore that tanks were pretty good at holding positions on the maps like small chokes. (shocker)
The biggest thing that bothers me and makes me believe most people don't know what they are really talking about is when they talk about the late-game in a bubble. The late-game is a progression from the early and mid-game. In an entire game of opportunities people simply assume, each player macroed perfectly and never really made any outcome-altering moves during the early to mid-game then a protoss player should beat a terran player. This is completely ignoring all the positioning, map balance, map control, etc that a player has at the time. Is it entirely possible a Terran that has map control before a protoss's death push has an advantage because they can control where to drop and flank? What about choosing to engage protoss only at narrow chokes and choosing only to flank from multiple sides? Maybe we should just assume a collosus is melting terran from all 4 angles while storms are perfectly laid and no chances of dodging is available.
I really think Blizzard's response is correct because HotS in on the horizon and they shouldn't bother fixing what really isn't broken. There were periods in Brood War when Zerg found it impossible to play competitively against high level terrans until the brilliance of some bonjwa came and showed an ailing race "how its done." I would believe there was a problem if I never saw a late-game Terran beat a late-game Toss convincingly. I really think it really comes down to something 90+% of the whiners don't quite understand. Execution matters. i want to see replay or it become only theory craft .... And bad theory craft at that, as drops are actually bad in the current metagame, protoss players know that all they have to do is defend through the mid game, so they've learnt how to defend against drops to the point where those are extremely cost inefficient, ergo you should only drop when you are ahead, or when the protoss has to actually split his army to defend, i.e after a big engagement which left very few units standing(assuming terran won), they DO NOT have to split anything in the late game, because every semi-decent protoss will have templars ready to feedback/storm and a zealot warp-in will crush whatever is left of the drop since they won't be supported by medivacs (no energy in the ones that didn't die), not that mention that dropping just leaves your main army and base vulnerable to a counter attack(which happens to kill a lot of terrans, frequently), and is easier to defend than it's to manage, because you have to stutter step way from simply warped-in zealots(Supernova died vs Hero in Metropolis mainly because of this, he tried to micro multiple drops at the same time which means he had to watch them, while HerO hit his weakened main army whilst feedbacking and warping-in zealots vs the drops, which takes a lot less screen time than dropping).Also, this "terran is stronger in the early game" bullshit has gotten way out of hand, especially in the current map pool where the rush distances are getting bigger and bigger, which btw, do not affect 6-7-8 gate all-ins and 3 gate pressures, now who again is stronger in the early game?Because I don't see working 2 rax pressures anymore, at least, their success is not even slightly close to that of the 3 gate. Regarding mech : Siege tanks die very fast and don't kill anything protoss related in due time, starting by their most basic unit, the zealot.Anyways, "The biggest thing that bothers me and makes me believe most people don't know what they are really talking about", okay, Mr.Irony.
I'm truly agree with every thing you said =)
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On May 04 2012 19:23 Douillos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 19:21 Exarl25 wrote:
Why the hell are people talking about this like the early, mid and late game are completely separate scenarios that exist in a vacuum? There is snowballing in SC2, if you have an advantage in the early game then you have the ability to go into the mid game in the lead, etc.
A buff to the Terran mid game would also be a buff to their late game for example. Protoss would have to cut tech or expand slower to stay safe, or the Terran could simply play greedier themselves. If Terran really are stronger in the early and mid game then assuming equal skill of the players the Terran should always be going into the late game at an advantage. If it goes to the late game with Protoss equal to or ahead of the Terran, despite the Protoss being weaker at every point previous to that, then the Terran has fucked up somewhere.
It's not a case of, "Oh this means that Terran has to win before 15 minutes or they lose, what stupid design", that's an absurdly shallow way of thinking about it. In BW there were matchups where the max army of one race was objectively more powerful than that of the other. This was not imbalance or bad design, it's not like both players start out max v max with perfect army compositions and max upgrades, a shit ton of stuff happens before you get to that point
Not to mention that we have other matchups even in SC2 where things are similar. You play against a Zerg as Terran or Protoss without threatening them at all for 15 minutes and you are fucked, unless you are playing an absurdly greedy game yourself. The thing is, the damage that must be done to stay on an even foot is absurd. You can get your third deny his and have better upgrades. 1 money storm and its over.
Bullshit, you are exaggerating.
Every race can throw away a huge lead by making a single micro mistake, if the mistake is big enough. In this example it would take more than one good Storm. If it were as bad as you are making out then Terran would almost never win once that upgrade finishes period.
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On May 04 2012 19:26 KuKri wrote:
Hahah this probably means we are going to see even more players switch to Protoss. Bye, bye Terrans in ladder :D
Are you happy that there will be no Terrans in the ladder or happy at the absurdity of the whole debacle?
Cause having no Terrans to walk all over 1 game out of 20 would be quite dull wouldn't it ;p
But seriously, not a fan of Blizz thinking. Can't remember who said it earlier in this thread but was perfect I think - all races should have aggressive possibilities early, ways to win mid and ways to deal with other deathballs. At mo only T has early options and only P/Z deathballs (gross oversimplification I know but you get the idea)
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On May 04 2012 18:29 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:05 mcc wrote:On May 04 2012 18:04 Jarree wrote:On May 04 2012 17:50 furo wrote:
The metagame right now favours P in lategame, but that has nothing to do with balance. P's are techning and upgrading very fast in the midgame right now, this obv leaves them vulnerable in the midgame and strong in the lategame.
It has absolutely nothing to do with metagame. Give both T and P 3-3 upgrades, 200 supply, 2k bank and 5 bases. P is heavily favored. And that is the balance problem why ? And that is a balance problem because each race should have near 50% chance to win at any stage of the game. Asymmetrical design doesn't mean one race should have an advantage at one stage of the game or another, it means that races have different tools at their disposal trough out the game but they all balance out, both in the short term and in the long term. If these conditions aren't meet then you reduce the number of strategies and choices in the game, instead of terrans opting to go for more late game you might see them gravitate more and more towards early and mid game aggressive strategies. And it is highly disturbing that David Kim doesn't realize this.
And you have no clue what balance in each stage means. As people already pointed out look at TvP in BW. Under your conditions it would be imbalanced, but it really is not to any big degree. Why ? Because you assume that late game balance means that game should be balanced for : T and P 3-3 upgrades, 200 supply, 2k bank and 5 bases (or similar "equal"). But why pick such a random situation. What if game is balanced for T and P at 3-3 upgrades, 200 suply, but terran at 6 bases and protoss at five and terran at 5000 resources to 3000 of protoss. This might still be a balanced late game if terran can ensure that such situation arises. You live under the illusion that balance late game means equal bases and resources, that is unfounded assumption.
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Drops are especially hard to do vs toss, They Always leave HT to feedback and just warp in a few chargelots and there the drop will be nullified
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As happens constantly with this game, shifts in meta are what provides balance rather than anything else. Terrans haven't really found any new way of dealing with Protoss late game yet but that doesn't meant they don't exist.
Let's just think back for a second. Who is of the opinion that the change in the fortunes of Protoss recently were because of a very small reduction in upgrade costs? Because that's the only change that has occurred between Protoss being seen as very weak compared to now being seen as very strong. Instead of the constant balance whine I think it should just be waited out until Terrans find a way to deal with it. If they still haven't found a way in another 3-6 months, then start thinking about buffs and nerfs.
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amazing. terran has been the dominant race since the release of SC2 but now that they are starting to really struggle (like the other races have done for long periods), the game is dead.
just proves how many people who picked terran and expected to have an advantage.
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On May 04 2012 13:42 MattBarry wrote:
You know, I'm no expert on BW. I played it for a decade casually with no knowledge of a pro-scene. But from what I've read, isn't there a ticking time bomb where Terran has to do damage before Hive in TvZ. What exactly is the difference?
The terran can turn the time bomb on its head by turtling till they get 36 tanks and split the map, making the zerg HAVE to break it before the terrans get that amount of tanks (note: this requires both tonse of minerals, gas and 15-20 minutes of turtling cus you still have to pressure the zerg from not just swallowing the map while pressuring, but thats another story).
IF blizz could implement that thing it'd be all fine and dandy but that is really really hard, has buffing thor / tanks' gonn screw with the vZ
But yeah, HotS might solve this 
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Im gonna quote what the terran players said when 1/1/1 was dominating for 2 months:
Figure out how to deal with it.
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On May 04 2012 19:40 sc2holar wrote:
Im gonna quote what the terran players said when 1/1/1 was dominating for 2 months:
Figure out how to deal with it.
And terran does what protoss did. cry until terran gets buffed
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On May 04 2012 18:32 Jarree wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:18 mcc wrote:On May 04 2012 18:11 Jarree wrote:On May 04 2012 18:05 mcc wrote:On May 04 2012 18:04 Jarree wrote:On May 04 2012 17:50 furo wrote:
The metagame right now favours P in lategame, but that has nothing to do with balance. P's are techning and upgrading very fast in the midgame right now, this obv leaves them vulnerable in the midgame and strong in the lategame.
It has absolutely nothing to do with metagame. Give both T and P 3-3 upgrades, 200 supply, 2k bank and 5 bases. P is heavily favored. And that is the balance problem why ? Did I say it was? I thought i said it has nothing to do with metagame. If you were not complaining about balance then second part of your post has no relation to what he said. And it actually easily can be metagame issue exactly because what you said. He said protoss late game is stronger because they rush upgrades and tech, meaning they get them faster than terran ie. because of metagame. I proposed a situation where both players have equal max tech and upgrades and claimed P is stronger. What part do you not get? You can disagree P is not stronger in that situation, that is a fair opinion of course.
Because your argument does not in any way show it is not a metagame issue. You pick random lategame situation with equal bases and equal resources. Why ? What if terran has a way to make sure that never happens and can actually be ahead on both. Then your point actually reinforces that current TvP late game problems are metagame based. Your argument did not show in any way that it is not a metagame issue, that is why I assumed you are making a balance complaint.
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4713 Posts
Not at all, the majority of games I've observed from the GSL or GSTL most players are usually on equal footing when it comes to expansions, both terrans and protoss expand at around the same time. If one player is on more bases then the other then one player is usually ahead, but that argument is irrelevant here if we want to talk about players being on equal footing.
One example of the top of my is MKP vs PartinG on Entombed Valley in the GSTL, PartinG kept up with MKP on expansions trough out the game, being behind by only 1 or 2 minutes.
It seems to be that you are the one without a clue of how balance should work, and you are the one without any real world facts to back it up.
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On May 04 2012 19:40 sc2holar wrote:
Im gonna quote what the terran players said when 1/1/1 was dominating for 2 months:
Figure out how to deal with it.
For this and your previous comment please go back to the B-net forums.
Your views (and all those like them here and over there) are toxic.
You assume all T's want to have an advantage the whole game, and win every game do you?
Or maybe, just maybe, T's are complaining (from lowest to highest) that they feel it is pointless to go to a long game vs P and that the match up is dull.
MMMVG every single game, believe it or not, is NOT fun for Terrans.
This is bad for viewing as well as playing. T's want the possiblity of options and late game being slightly more even not a guarrenteed win.
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On May 04 2012 19:25 IshinShishi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2012 18:50 nOondn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:45 Ushi wrote:
I believe there is so many things wrong with this mob mentality about late game TvP. Sorry if this comes off as a flame in anyway but this is just how I see it.
1) TvP late game is a little harder for the Terran but not impossible
2) The refusal to innovate and simply play better is what separates Koreans from non-Koreans
3) StarCraft is a complex game and stop pretending you have it all figured it out
I guess I should try to explain some of my points. Terrans can hold their own in the late game. I bet its hard when terrible players just rush mmm+viking+ghost and think they've done everything possible to hold off a death ball in the middle of an open map. This is not the only way to play TvP late game despite how many people expect. You can actually perform drops and force the Protoss to split their army which is a common solution. Rather than focusing on the strengths of a Protoss army, Terrans should simply find the weaknesses. Mobility and positioning come into mind.
People refuse to believe mech has any place in the matchup which is insane. It is off the table for 90% of players because all the strategies they've seen and tried failed miserably. This really just means that no one really figured out how to use mech in tvp yet and it is not the same as mech is impossible don't bother. MVP and I believe MKP have opted for some very unique tank play and holding strategic ramps. People may argue these were just parts of mid-game pushes and completely ignore that tanks were pretty good at holding positions on the maps like small chokes. (shocker)
The biggest thing that bothers me and makes me believe most people don't know what they are really talking about is when they talk about the late-game in a bubble. The late-game is a progression from the early and mid-game. In an entire game of opportunities people simply assume, each player macroed perfectly and never really made any outcome-altering moves during the early to mid-game then a protoss player should beat a terran player. This is completely ignoring all the positioning, map balance, map control, etc that a player has at the time. Is it entirely possible a Terran that has map control before a protoss's death push has an advantage because they can control where to drop and flank? What about choosing to engage protoss only at narrow chokes and choosing only to flank from multiple sides? Maybe we should just assume a collosus is melting terran from all 4 angles while storms are perfectly laid and no chances of dodging is available.
I really think Blizzard's response is correct because HotS in on the horizon and they shouldn't bother fixing what really isn't broken. There were periods in Brood War when Zerg found it impossible to play competitively against high level terrans until the brilliance of some bonjwa came and showed an ailing race "how its done." I would believe there was a problem if I never saw a late-game Terran beat a late-game Toss convincingly. I really think it really comes down to something 90+% of the whiners don't quite understand. Execution matters. i want to see replay or it become only theory craft .... And bad theory craft at that, as drops are actually bad in the current metagame, protoss players know that all they have to do is defend through the mid game, so they've learnt how to defend against drops to the point where those are extremely cost inefficient, ergo you should only drop when you are ahead, or when the protoss has to actually split his army to defend, i.e after a big engagement which left very few units standing(assuming terran won), they DO NOT have to split anything in the late game, because every semi-decent protoss will have templars ready to feedback/storm and a zealot warp-in will crush whatever is left of the drop since they won't be supported by medivacs (no energy in the ones that didn't die), not that mention that dropping just leaves your main army and base vulnerable to a counter attack(which happens to kill a lot of terrans, frequently), and is easier to defend than it's to manage, because you have to stutter step way from simply warped-in zealots(Supernova died vs Hero in Metropolis mainly because of this, he tried to micro multiple drops at the same time which means he had to watch them, while HerO hit his weakened main army whilst feedbacking and warping-in zealots vs the drops, which takes a lot less screen time than dropping).Also, this "terran is stronger in the early game" bullshit has gotten way out of hand, especially in the current map pool where the rush distances are getting bigger and bigger, which btw, do not affect 6-7-8 gate all-ins and 3 gate pressures, now who again is stronger in the early game?Because I don't see working 2 rax pressures anymore, at least, their success is not even slightly close to that of the 3 gate. Regarding mech : Siege tanks die very fast and don't kill anything protoss related in due time, starting by their most basic unit, the zealot.Anyways, "The biggest thing that bothers me and makes me believe most people don't know what they are really talking about", okay, Mr.Irony.
I definitely see your point that drops are nullified by good defense but not many protoss can play so perfectly. This idea that hey we can't drop anymore because any "semi-decent protoss" just counters with x,y, and z seems insane. It is the Terran's burden to find holes in a protoss's play and exploit it. This is like Zerg in BW where sitting back while a terran macros means death. Especially if the Terran went mech in BW. I guess if we assume a protoss has perfect map awareness and can utilize HT's perfectly then it might feel like an impossible uphill battle for a Terran. It is entirely possible this is a glaring imbalance that will only grow over time until a change is forced by Blizzard. I don't feel it has come to this point yet because there is maybe 1 or 2 protosses out there that can really pull perfect play off. An impenetrable turtle defense into a death push. Sounds like you're playing against Flash haha. People need to really change their mindset when playing if they want the metagame to evolve. I still honestly feel at the highest levels of play, the better player wins. This notion of TvP lategame imbalance is grossly exaggerated though I will concede its not perfect atm.
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On May 04 2012 19:37 Ace1123 wrote:
Drops are especially hard to do vs toss, They Always leave HT to feedback and just warp in a few chargelots and there the drop will be nullified
I am going to tell you as a protoss player, I do not always have HTs or chargelots. You should try dropping when we do not have those units, which could be the first 12-15 minutes of the game.
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On May 04 2012 19:42 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:32 Jarree wrote:On May 04 2012 18:18 mcc wrote:On May 04 2012 18:11 Jarree wrote:On May 04 2012 18:05 mcc wrote:On May 04 2012 18:04 Jarree wrote:On May 04 2012 17:50 furo wrote:
The metagame right now favours P in lategame, but that has nothing to do with balance. P's are techning and upgrading very fast in the midgame right now, this obv leaves them vulnerable in the midgame and strong in the lategame.
It has absolutely nothing to do with metagame. Give both T and P 3-3 upgrades, 200 supply, 2k bank and 5 bases. P is heavily favored. And that is the balance problem why ? Did I say it was? I thought i said it has nothing to do with metagame. If you were not complaining about balance then second part of your post has no relation to what he said. And it actually easily can be metagame issue exactly because what you said. He said protoss late game is stronger because they rush upgrades and tech, meaning they get them faster than terran ie. because of metagame. I proposed a situation where both players have equal max tech and upgrades and claimed P is stronger. What part do you not get? You can disagree P is not stronger in that situation, that is a fair opinion of course. Because your argument does not in any way show it is not a metagame issue. You pick random lategame situation with equal bases and equal resources. Why ? What if terran has a way to make sure that never happens and can actually be ahead on both. Then your point actually reinforces that current TvP late game problems are metagame based. Your argument did not show in any way that it is not a metagame issue, that is why I assumed you are making a balance complaint.
I am sure 'What ifs' make for stronger arguments.
On May 04 2012 19:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 19:37 Ace1123 wrote:
Drops are especially hard to do vs toss, They Always leave HT to feedback and just warp in a few chargelots and there the drop will be nullified I am going to tell you as a protoss player, I do not always have HTs or chargelots. You should try dropping when we do not have those units, which could be the first 12-15 minutes of the game.
But you definetely have stalkers(and those tend to have blink in multiple builds of the current meta), the passing of time just makes dropping harder;
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On May 04 2012 19:41 EmilA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 19:40 sc2holar wrote:
Im gonna quote what the terran players said when 1/1/1 was dominating for 2 months:
Figure out how to deal with it. And terran does what protoss did. cry until terran gets buffed
SOOOOOO true.
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EPT
