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tvp is really really, i mean, REALLY REALLY boring, it's balanced around the Super-Boring Marauders, aka Goon....
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4713 Posts
On May 04 2012 19:40 sc2holar wrote:
Im gonna quote what the terran players said when 1/1/1 was dominating for 2 months:
Figure out how to deal with it.
Protoss didn't "figure it out" as you seem to believe, they where helped by a combination of buffs/nerfs and the map pool changing drastically.
Now a days rush distances and defensive features are so extreme that early or mid game attacks are less effective.
That is what killed the 1/1/1 not only Protoss innovation.
Learn your history before you come in here and post erroneous facts.
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On May 04 2012 19:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 19:37 Ace1123 wrote:
Drops are especially hard to do vs toss, They Always leave HT to feedback and just warp in a few chargelots and there the drop will be nullified I am going to tell you as a protoss player, I do not always have HTs or chargelots. You should try dropping when we do not have those units, which could be the first 12-15 minutes of the game.
no, then you have colossi or stargate tech, and if you don't by 15 mn, and are still on full gate units, you should have ended the game for a long time because that's pretty all in (but only protoss can all in, not do damage and go back to macro np)
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On May 04 2012 19:48 Rachnar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 19:45 Plansix wrote:On May 04 2012 19:37 Ace1123 wrote:
Drops are especially hard to do vs toss, They Always leave HT to feedback and just warp in a few chargelots and there the drop will be nullified I am going to tell you as a protoss player, I do not always have HTs or chargelots. You should try dropping when we do not have those units, which could be the first 12-15 minutes of the game. no, then you have colossi or stargate tech, and if you don't by 15 mn, and are still on full gate units, you should have ended the game for a long time because that's pretty all in (but only protoss can all in, not do damage and go back to macro np)
Sounds like you have a really poor understanding of TvP and when protoss is vulnerable to drops. You should study up on the match up, rather than claim that stargate tech prevents you from dropping a protoss.
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"That does mean that at different stages of the game, one race might have tools which represent an advantage against the others--though it’s important that those advantages can always be mitigated by good play."
The bolded part above really needs to be stressed, from what I gather here Blizzard still wants Terran to have some chance in the late game even if they are weaker within this stage. The big question here is whether Terran's do have a chance at winning the late game, and whether this opportunity is substantial enough.
Important to note also is that this is not a balance discussion per se (as they say TvP has balanced winrates) but a design discussion on the 'freedom' Terran's should have in how they win; their chance of winning overall shouldn't change either way (not sure if this is obvious or not but I saw some posts regarding imbalance above so I thought I'd mention it).
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On May 04 2012 19:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 19:48 Rachnar wrote:On May 04 2012 19:45 Plansix wrote:On May 04 2012 19:37 Ace1123 wrote:
Drops are especially hard to do vs toss, They Always leave HT to feedback and just warp in a few chargelots and there the drop will be nullified I am going to tell you as a protoss player, I do not always have HTs or chargelots. You should try dropping when we do not have those units, which could be the first 12-15 minutes of the game. no, then you have colossi or stargate tech, and if you don't by 15 mn, and are still on full gate units, you should have ended the game for a long time because that's pretty all in (but only protoss can all in, not do damage and go back to macro np) Sounds like you have a really poor understanding of TvP and when protoss is vulnerable to drops. You should study up on the match up, rather than claim that stargate tech prevents you from dropping a protoss.
stargate techs does stop drops, unless you have 0 map vision, and with phoenix, that's not the sort of thing you're lacking (but that btw, wasn't even what my post was talkign about)
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On May 04 2012 19:44 Ushi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 19:25 IshinShishi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2012 18:50 nOondn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:45 Ushi wrote:
I believe there is so many things wrong with this mob mentality about late game TvP. Sorry if this comes off as a flame in anyway but this is just how I see it.
1) TvP late game is a little harder for the Terran but not impossible
2) The refusal to innovate and simply play better is what separates Koreans from non-Koreans
3) StarCraft is a complex game and stop pretending you have it all figured it out
I guess I should try to explain some of my points. Terrans can hold their own in the late game. I bet its hard when terrible players just rush mmm+viking+ghost and think they've done everything possible to hold off a death ball in the middle of an open map. This is not the only way to play TvP late game despite how many people expect. You can actually perform drops and force the Protoss to split their army which is a common solution. Rather than focusing on the strengths of a Protoss army, Terrans should simply find the weaknesses. Mobility and positioning come into mind.
People refuse to believe mech has any place in the matchup which is insane. It is off the table for 90% of players because all the strategies they've seen and tried failed miserably. This really just means that no one really figured out how to use mech in tvp yet and it is not the same as mech is impossible don't bother. MVP and I believe MKP have opted for some very unique tank play and holding strategic ramps. People may argue these were just parts of mid-game pushes and completely ignore that tanks were pretty good at holding positions on the maps like small chokes. (shocker)
The biggest thing that bothers me and makes me believe most people don't know what they are really talking about is when they talk about the late-game in a bubble. The late-game is a progression from the early and mid-game. In an entire game of opportunities people simply assume, each player macroed perfectly and never really made any outcome-altering moves during the early to mid-game then a protoss player should beat a terran player. This is completely ignoring all the positioning, map balance, map control, etc that a player has at the time. Is it entirely possible a Terran that has map control before a protoss's death push has an advantage because they can control where to drop and flank? What about choosing to engage protoss only at narrow chokes and choosing only to flank from multiple sides? Maybe we should just assume a collosus is melting terran from all 4 angles while storms are perfectly laid and no chances of dodging is available.
I really think Blizzard's response is correct because HotS in on the horizon and they shouldn't bother fixing what really isn't broken. There were periods in Brood War when Zerg found it impossible to play competitively against high level terrans until the brilliance of some bonjwa came and showed an ailing race "how its done." I would believe there was a problem if I never saw a late-game Terran beat a late-game Toss convincingly. I really think it really comes down to something 90+% of the whiners don't quite understand. Execution matters. i want to see replay or it become only theory craft .... And bad theory craft at that, as drops are actually bad in the current metagame, protoss players know that all they have to do is defend through the mid game, so they've learnt how to defend against drops to the point where those are extremely cost inefficient, ergo you should only drop when you are ahead, or when the protoss has to actually split his army to defend, i.e after a big engagement which left very few units standing(assuming terran won), they DO NOT have to split anything in the late game, because every semi-decent protoss will have templars ready to feedback/storm and a zealot warp-in will crush whatever is left of the drop since they won't be supported by medivacs (no energy in the ones that didn't die), not that mention that dropping just leaves your main army and base vulnerable to a counter attack(which happens to kill a lot of terrans, frequently), and is easier to defend than it's to manage, because you have to stutter step way from simply warped-in zealots(Supernova died vs Hero in Metropolis mainly because of this, he tried to micro multiple drops at the same time which means he had to watch them, while HerO hit his weakened main army whilst feedbacking and warping-in zealots vs the drops, which takes a lot less screen time than dropping).Also, this "terran is stronger in the early game" bullshit has gotten way out of hand, especially in the current map pool where the rush distances are getting bigger and bigger, which btw, do not affect 6-7-8 gate all-ins and 3 gate pressures, now who again is stronger in the early game?Because I don't see working 2 rax pressures anymore, at least, their success is not even slightly close to that of the 3 gate. Regarding mech : Siege tanks die very fast and don't kill anything protoss related in due time, starting by their most basic unit, the zealot.Anyways, "The biggest thing that bothers me and makes me believe most people don't know what they are really talking about", okay, Mr.Irony. I definitely see your point that drops are nullified by good defense but not many protoss can play so perfectly. This idea that hey we can't drop anymore because any "semi-decent protoss" just counters with x,y, and z seems insane. It is the Terran's burden to find holes in a protoss's play and exploit it. This is like Zerg in BW where sitting back while a terran macros means death. Especially if the Terran went mech in BW. I guess if we assume a protoss has perfect map awareness and can utilize HT's perfectly then it might feel like an impossible uphill battle for a Terran. It is entirely possible this is a glaring imbalance that will only grow over time until a change is forced by Blizzard. I don't feel it has come to this point yet because there is maybe 1 or 2 protosses out there that can really pull perfect play off. An impenetrable turtle defense into a death push. Sounds like you're playing against Flash haha. People need to really change their mindset when playing if they want the metagame to evolve. I still honestly feel at the highest levels of play, the better player wins. This notion of TvP lategame imbalance is grossly exaggerated though I will concede its not perfect atm.
Sound like you're not playing in the high level ? becuase it not hard to defend from drop or multiprong attack at all.
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On May 04 2012 19:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 19:48 Rachnar wrote:On May 04 2012 19:45 Plansix wrote:On May 04 2012 19:37 Ace1123 wrote:
Drops are especially hard to do vs toss, They Always leave HT to feedback and just warp in a few chargelots and there the drop will be nullified I am going to tell you as a protoss player, I do not always have HTs or chargelots. You should try dropping when we do not have those units, which could be the first 12-15 minutes of the game. no, then you have colossi or stargate tech, and if you don't by 15 mn, and are still on full gate units, you should have ended the game for a long time because that's pretty all in (but only protoss can all in, not do damage and go back to macro np) Sounds like you have a really poor understanding of TvP and when protoss is vulnerable to drops. You should study up on the match up, rather than claim that stargate tech prevents you from dropping a protoss.
12-15 there are already templars ingame
when u try to drop before 12-15 min marks there are most of the time 4-6 stalkers in their main base to deny drops
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On May 04 2012 19:55 Rachnar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 19:53 Plansix wrote:On May 04 2012 19:48 Rachnar wrote:On May 04 2012 19:45 Plansix wrote:On May 04 2012 19:37 Ace1123 wrote:
Drops are especially hard to do vs toss, They Always leave HT to feedback and just warp in a few chargelots and there the drop will be nullified I am going to tell you as a protoss player, I do not always have HTs or chargelots. You should try dropping when we do not have those units, which could be the first 12-15 minutes of the game. no, then you have colossi or stargate tech, and if you don't by 15 mn, and are still on full gate units, you should have ended the game for a long time because that's pretty all in (but only protoss can all in, not do damage and go back to macro np) Sounds like you have a really poor understanding of TvP and when protoss is vulnerable to drops. You should study up on the match up, rather than claim that stargate tech prevents you from dropping a protoss. stargate techs does stop drops, unless you have 0 map vision, and with phoenix, that's not the sort of thing you're lacking (but that btw, wasn't even what my post was talkign about)
Yeah, stargate tech is not something protoss use a lot in PvT. I wouldn't worry about it or claim the drops are useless because protoss might have it.
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On May 04 2012 19:57 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 19:55 Rachnar wrote:On May 04 2012 19:53 Plansix wrote:On May 04 2012 19:48 Rachnar wrote:On May 04 2012 19:45 Plansix wrote:On May 04 2012 19:37 Ace1123 wrote:
Drops are especially hard to do vs toss, They Always leave HT to feedback and just warp in a few chargelots and there the drop will be nullified I am going to tell you as a protoss player, I do not always have HTs or chargelots. You should try dropping when we do not have those units, which could be the first 12-15 minutes of the game. no, then you have colossi or stargate tech, and if you don't by 15 mn, and are still on full gate units, you should have ended the game for a long time because that's pretty all in (but only protoss can all in, not do damage and go back to macro np) Sounds like you have a really poor understanding of TvP and when protoss is vulnerable to drops. You should study up on the match up, rather than claim that stargate tech prevents you from dropping a protoss. stargate techs does stop drops, unless you have 0 map vision, and with phoenix, that's not the sort of thing you're lacking (but that btw, wasn't even what my post was talkign about) Yeah, stargate tech is not something protoss use a lot in PvT. I wouldn't worry about it or claim the drops are useless because protoss might have it.
you seem good to talk about something which i barely mentionned originally and was clearly not the aim of the post
i won't bother answering to you anymore, useless discussion 
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4713 Posts
Why is SG tech getting mentioned? SG is irrelevant and nearly non existent in TvP, yes it should stop drops just as well as mutas, but it won't happen because it is hardly seen, I don't see the use of discussing SG in TvP.
What stops drops is cannons, supported by HT and warp in. And it needs to happen at a weird transition period when Toss is getting on 3 basses, but doesn't yet have his infrastructure up and his army split to receive attacks, because after that point defenses tighten up again and it becomes hard to attempt.
Lets also take into account the fact that more and more maps are being build in such a way as to discourage air play and drop play.
Not to mention its hard to manage two or three armies at the same time as terran while protoss doesn't need to expend as much APM to defend against a similar situation.
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that they take mirrors as an example for boring play is bad, because tvt is one of the best matchups.
In non-mirror matches we intentionally work to provide diverse strategies that make use of asymmetric design to produce varied, fun and interesting games, while maintaining excellent overall balance.
tvt is much more varied, fun and interesting and balanced than tvp.
(tvp is still good but it could be better)
it's just bad game design (lazy?) that some races have better strengths at certain times in the game when both races play equally good.
every race should have the same potential with the same skill needed to win a game at any given time.
this should be the optimun to strive for.
has nothing to do with the topic smartface.
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On May 04 2012 19:56 nOondn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 19:44 Ushi wrote:On May 04 2012 19:25 IshinShishi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2012 18:50 nOondn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:45 Ushi wrote:
I believe there is so many things wrong with this mob mentality about late game TvP. Sorry if this comes off as a flame in anyway but this is just how I see it.
1) TvP late game is a little harder for the Terran but not impossible
2) The refusal to innovate and simply play better is what separates Koreans from non-Koreans
3) StarCraft is a complex game and stop pretending you have it all figured it out
I guess I should try to explain some of my points. Terrans can hold their own in the late game. I bet its hard when terrible players just rush mmm+viking+ghost and think they've done everything possible to hold off a death ball in the middle of an open map. This is not the only way to play TvP late game despite how many people expect. You can actually perform drops and force the Protoss to split their army which is a common solution. Rather than focusing on the strengths of a Protoss army, Terrans should simply find the weaknesses. Mobility and positioning come into mind.
People refuse to believe mech has any place in the matchup which is insane. It is off the table for 90% of players because all the strategies they've seen and tried failed miserably. This really just means that no one really figured out how to use mech in tvp yet and it is not the same as mech is impossible don't bother. MVP and I believe MKP have opted for some very unique tank play and holding strategic ramps. People may argue these were just parts of mid-game pushes and completely ignore that tanks were pretty good at holding positions on the maps like small chokes. (shocker)
The biggest thing that bothers me and makes me believe most people don't know what they are really talking about is when they talk about the late-game in a bubble. The late-game is a progression from the early and mid-game. In an entire game of opportunities people simply assume, each player macroed perfectly and never really made any outcome-altering moves during the early to mid-game then a protoss player should beat a terran player. This is completely ignoring all the positioning, map balance, map control, etc that a player has at the time. Is it entirely possible a Terran that has map control before a protoss's death push has an advantage because they can control where to drop and flank? What about choosing to engage protoss only at narrow chokes and choosing only to flank from multiple sides? Maybe we should just assume a collosus is melting terran from all 4 angles while storms are perfectly laid and no chances of dodging is available.
I really think Blizzard's response is correct because HotS in on the horizon and they shouldn't bother fixing what really isn't broken. There were periods in Brood War when Zerg found it impossible to play competitively against high level terrans until the brilliance of some bonjwa came and showed an ailing race "how its done." I would believe there was a problem if I never saw a late-game Terran beat a late-game Toss convincingly. I really think it really comes down to something 90+% of the whiners don't quite understand. Execution matters. i want to see replay or it become only theory craft .... And bad theory craft at that, as drops are actually bad in the current metagame, protoss players know that all they have to do is defend through the mid game, so they've learnt how to defend against drops to the point where those are extremely cost inefficient, ergo you should only drop when you are ahead, or when the protoss has to actually split his army to defend, i.e after a big engagement which left very few units standing(assuming terran won), they DO NOT have to split anything in the late game, because every semi-decent protoss will have templars ready to feedback/storm and a zealot warp-in will crush whatever is left of the drop since they won't be supported by medivacs (no energy in the ones that didn't die), not that mention that dropping just leaves your main army and base vulnerable to a counter attack(which happens to kill a lot of terrans, frequently), and is easier to defend than it's to manage, because you have to stutter step way from simply warped-in zealots(Supernova died vs Hero in Metropolis mainly because of this, he tried to micro multiple drops at the same time which means he had to watch them, while HerO hit his weakened main army whilst feedbacking and warping-in zealots vs the drops, which takes a lot less screen time than dropping).Also, this "terran is stronger in the early game" bullshit has gotten way out of hand, especially in the current map pool where the rush distances are getting bigger and bigger, which btw, do not affect 6-7-8 gate all-ins and 3 gate pressures, now who again is stronger in the early game?Because I don't see working 2 rax pressures anymore, at least, their success is not even slightly close to that of the 3 gate. Regarding mech : Siege tanks die very fast and don't kill anything protoss related in due time, starting by their most basic unit, the zealot.Anyways, "The biggest thing that bothers me and makes me believe most people don't know what they are really talking about", okay, Mr.Irony. I definitely see your point that drops are nullified by good defense but not many protoss can play so perfectly. This idea that hey we can't drop anymore because any "semi-decent protoss" just counters with x,y, and z seems insane. It is the Terran's burden to find holes in a protoss's play and exploit it. This is like Zerg in BW where sitting back while a terran macros means death. Especially if the Terran went mech in BW. I guess if we assume a protoss has perfect map awareness and can utilize HT's perfectly then it might feel like an impossible uphill battle for a Terran. It is entirely possible this is a glaring imbalance that will only grow over time until a change is forced by Blizzard. I don't feel it has come to this point yet because there is maybe 1 or 2 protosses out there that can really pull perfect play off. An impenetrable turtle defense into a death push. Sounds like you're playing against Flash haha. People need to really change their mindset when playing if they want the metagame to evolve. I still honestly feel at the highest levels of play, the better player wins. This notion of TvP lategame imbalance is grossly exaggerated though I will concede its not perfect atm. Sound like you're not playing in the high level ? becuase it not hard to defend from drop or multiprong attack at all.
I am going to say that is can be difficult against a good terran who knows what they are doing. It can be rough if a terran threatens the front and then does a strong drop to the back that overpowers the defense you were able to set up. It is really hard if they snipe your observer before hand, so you can't keep an eye on the main army.
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On May 04 2012 19:56 nOondn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 19:44 Ushi wrote:On May 04 2012 19:25 IshinShishi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2012 18:50 nOondn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:45 Ushi wrote:
I believe there is so many things wrong with this mob mentality about late game TvP. Sorry if this comes off as a flame in anyway but this is just how I see it.
1) TvP late game is a little harder for the Terran but not impossible
2) The refusal to innovate and simply play better is what separates Koreans from non-Koreans
3) StarCraft is a complex game and stop pretending you have it all figured it out
I guess I should try to explain some of my points. Terrans can hold their own in the late game. I bet its hard when terrible players just rush mmm+viking+ghost and think they've done everything possible to hold off a death ball in the middle of an open map. This is not the only way to play TvP late game despite how many people expect. You can actually perform drops and force the Protoss to split their army which is a common solution. Rather than focusing on the strengths of a Protoss army, Terrans should simply find the weaknesses. Mobility and positioning come into mind.
People refuse to believe mech has any place in the matchup which is insane. It is off the table for 90% of players because all the strategies they've seen and tried failed miserably. This really just means that no one really figured out how to use mech in tvp yet and it is not the same as mech is impossible don't bother. MVP and I believe MKP have opted for some very unique tank play and holding strategic ramps. People may argue these were just parts of mid-game pushes and completely ignore that tanks were pretty good at holding positions on the maps like small chokes. (shocker)
The biggest thing that bothers me and makes me believe most people don't know what they are really talking about is when they talk about the late-game in a bubble. The late-game is a progression from the early and mid-game. In an entire game of opportunities people simply assume, each player macroed perfectly and never really made any outcome-altering moves during the early to mid-game then a protoss player should beat a terran player. This is completely ignoring all the positioning, map balance, map control, etc that a player has at the time. Is it entirely possible a Terran that has map control before a protoss's death push has an advantage because they can control where to drop and flank? What about choosing to engage protoss only at narrow chokes and choosing only to flank from multiple sides? Maybe we should just assume a collosus is melting terran from all 4 angles while storms are perfectly laid and no chances of dodging is available.
I really think Blizzard's response is correct because HotS in on the horizon and they shouldn't bother fixing what really isn't broken. There were periods in Brood War when Zerg found it impossible to play competitively against high level terrans until the brilliance of some bonjwa came and showed an ailing race "how its done." I would believe there was a problem if I never saw a late-game Terran beat a late-game Toss convincingly. I really think it really comes down to something 90+% of the whiners don't quite understand. Execution matters. i want to see replay or it become only theory craft .... And bad theory craft at that, as drops are actually bad in the current metagame, protoss players know that all they have to do is defend through the mid game, so they've learnt how to defend against drops to the point where those are extremely cost inefficient, ergo you should only drop when you are ahead, or when the protoss has to actually split his army to defend, i.e after a big engagement which left very few units standing(assuming terran won), they DO NOT have to split anything in the late game, because every semi-decent protoss will have templars ready to feedback/storm and a zealot warp-in will crush whatever is left of the drop since they won't be supported by medivacs (no energy in the ones that didn't die), not that mention that dropping just leaves your main army and base vulnerable to a counter attack(which happens to kill a lot of terrans, frequently), and is easier to defend than it's to manage, because you have to stutter step way from simply warped-in zealots(Supernova died vs Hero in Metropolis mainly because of this, he tried to micro multiple drops at the same time which means he had to watch them, while HerO hit his weakened main army whilst feedbacking and warping-in zealots vs the drops, which takes a lot less screen time than dropping).Also, this "terran is stronger in the early game" bullshit has gotten way out of hand, especially in the current map pool where the rush distances are getting bigger and bigger, which btw, do not affect 6-7-8 gate all-ins and 3 gate pressures, now who again is stronger in the early game?Because I don't see working 2 rax pressures anymore, at least, their success is not even slightly close to that of the 3 gate. Regarding mech : Siege tanks die very fast and don't kill anything protoss related in due time, starting by their most basic unit, the zealot.Anyways, "The biggest thing that bothers me and makes me believe most people don't know what they are really talking about", okay, Mr.Irony. I definitely see your point that drops are nullified by good defense but not many protoss can play so perfectly. This idea that hey we can't drop anymore because any "semi-decent protoss" just counters with x,y, and z seems insane. It is the Terran's burden to find holes in a protoss's play and exploit it. This is like Zerg in BW where sitting back while a terran macros means death. Especially if the Terran went mech in BW. I guess if we assume a protoss has perfect map awareness and can utilize HT's perfectly then it might feel like an impossible uphill battle for a Terran. It is entirely possible this is a glaring imbalance that will only grow over time until a change is forced by Blizzard. I don't feel it has come to this point yet because there is maybe 1 or 2 protosses out there that can really pull perfect play off. An impenetrable turtle defense into a death push. Sounds like you're playing against Flash haha. People need to really change their mindset when playing if they want the metagame to evolve. I still honestly feel at the highest levels of play, the better player wins. This notion of TvP lategame imbalance is grossly exaggerated though I will concede its not perfect atm. Sound like you're not playing in the high level ? becuase it not hard to defend from drop or multiprong attack at all.
I am not claiming to be a high level player. I just know the responses from watching a TON of pros play and following BW closely for a bit. I still feel it comes down to execution. If multi-prong drops are so easy to deal with then why do Koreans still do it. Because it works sometimes. Sometimes it is downright brutal how effective they are. Maybe I am relying too much on a protoss's mistake but this is what happens in real games. StarCraft is a game of tempo where you can force your opponent to make mistakes. This is true skill in my opinion when you can make a protoss player uncomfortable even in the late game. The threat of backstabs, a well executed flank, counter-attacks, strong turtle position to buy time, good viking maneuvering, strong ghost control. These are all options that terrans have with a mobile MMMVG army. If you feel a your terran army is unthreatening to a protoss death ball, you're probably doing it wrong.
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Quite strange that in like October 2011 Terran was a superdominant race but now they have problems against Protoss, the only major changes were to the Ghosts I guess since then ..
I guess they could just buff Ghosts again..
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On May 04 2012 19:55 Rachnar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 19:53 Plansix wrote:On May 04 2012 19:48 Rachnar wrote:On May 04 2012 19:45 Plansix wrote:On May 04 2012 19:37 Ace1123 wrote:
Drops are especially hard to do vs toss, They Always leave HT to feedback and just warp in a few chargelots and there the drop will be nullified I am going to tell you as a protoss player, I do not always have HTs or chargelots. You should try dropping when we do not have those units, which could be the first 12-15 minutes of the game. no, then you have colossi or stargate tech, and if you don't by 15 mn, and are still on full gate units, you should have ended the game for a long time because that's pretty all in (but only protoss can all in, not do damage and go back to macro np) Sounds like you have a really poor understanding of TvP and when protoss is vulnerable to drops. You should study up on the match up, rather than claim that stargate tech prevents you from dropping a protoss. stargate techs does stop drops, unless you have 0 map vision, and with phoenix, that's not the sort of thing you're lacking (but that btw, wasn't even what my post was talkign about)
You can have a phoenix or voidray out well in time for a drop off a standard 12 rax/13 gas 1-1-1. It's not like the zomg counter to drop builds, it still requires the toss to intercept your drop. But the timing is not wrong, AFAIK.
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On May 04 2012 20:07 Destructicon wrote:
Why is SG tech getting mentioned? SG is irrelevant and nearly non existent in TvP, yes it should stop drops just as well as mutas, but it won't happen because it is hardly seen, I don't see the use of discussing SG in TvP.
What stops drops is cannons, supported by HT and warp in. And it needs to happen at a weird transition period when Toss is getting on 3 basses, but doesn't yet have his infrastructure up and his army split to receive attacks, because after that point defenses tighten up again and it becomes hard to attempt.
Lets also take into account the fact that more and more maps are being build in such a way as to discourage air play and drop play.
Not to mention its hard to manage two or three armies at the same time as terran while protoss doesn't need to expend as much APM to defend against a similar situation.
This is an argument I do agree with that the new maps lack space for the terran to sneak in a drop. Cloud Kingdom is really bad for this and has limited routes that a terran can get behind the natural and transition into the main base. The only real area is between the 3rd and main, but the medivac needs to take a long trip to avoid the tower.
I think alterations to the current map pool giving terrans "room to drop" would help a lot. Not a huge change, but give terrans the ability to use drops more effectively and require the protoss be aware of a bit more area in the early-mid game.
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On May 04 2012 20:10 ngri wrote:
Quite strange that in like October 2011 Terran was a superdominant race but now they have problems against Protoss, the only major changes were to the Ghosts I guess since then ..
I guess they could just buff Ghosts again..
ghost nerf, upgrade buff, immortal range, cheaper obs
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On May 04 2012 20:08 Ushi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 19:56 nOondn wrote:On May 04 2012 19:44 Ushi wrote:On May 04 2012 19:25 IshinShishi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2012 18:50 nOondn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:45 Ushi wrote:
I believe there is so many things wrong with this mob mentality about late game TvP. Sorry if this comes off as a flame in anyway but this is just how I see it.
1) TvP late game is a little harder for the Terran but not impossible
2) The refusal to innovate and simply play better is what separates Koreans from non-Koreans
3) StarCraft is a complex game and stop pretending you have it all figured it out
I guess I should try to explain some of my points. Terrans can hold their own in the late game. I bet its hard when terrible players just rush mmm+viking+ghost and think they've done everything possible to hold off a death ball in the middle of an open map. This is not the only way to play TvP late game despite how many people expect. You can actually perform drops and force the Protoss to split their army which is a common solution. Rather than focusing on the strengths of a Protoss army, Terrans should simply find the weaknesses. Mobility and positioning come into mind.
People refuse to believe mech has any place in the matchup which is insane. It is off the table for 90% of players because all the strategies they've seen and tried failed miserably. This really just means that no one really figured out how to use mech in tvp yet and it is not the same as mech is impossible don't bother. MVP and I believe MKP have opted for some very unique tank play and holding strategic ramps. People may argue these were just parts of mid-game pushes and completely ignore that tanks were pretty good at holding positions on the maps like small chokes. (shocker)
The biggest thing that bothers me and makes me believe most people don't know what they are really talking about is when they talk about the late-game in a bubble. The late-game is a progression from the early and mid-game. In an entire game of opportunities people simply assume, each player macroed perfectly and never really made any outcome-altering moves during the early to mid-game then a protoss player should beat a terran player. This is completely ignoring all the positioning, map balance, map control, etc that a player has at the time. Is it entirely possible a Terran that has map control before a protoss's death push has an advantage because they can control where to drop and flank? What about choosing to engage protoss only at narrow chokes and choosing only to flank from multiple sides? Maybe we should just assume a collosus is melting terran from all 4 angles while storms are perfectly laid and no chances of dodging is available.
I really think Blizzard's response is correct because HotS in on the horizon and they shouldn't bother fixing what really isn't broken. There were periods in Brood War when Zerg found it impossible to play competitively against high level terrans until the brilliance of some bonjwa came and showed an ailing race "how its done." I would believe there was a problem if I never saw a late-game Terran beat a late-game Toss convincingly. I really think it really comes down to something 90+% of the whiners don't quite understand. Execution matters. i want to see replay or it become only theory craft .... And bad theory craft at that, as drops are actually bad in the current metagame, protoss players know that all they have to do is defend through the mid game, so they've learnt how to defend against drops to the point where those are extremely cost inefficient, ergo you should only drop when you are ahead, or when the protoss has to actually split his army to defend, i.e after a big engagement which left very few units standing(assuming terran won), they DO NOT have to split anything in the late game, because every semi-decent protoss will have templars ready to feedback/storm and a zealot warp-in will crush whatever is left of the drop since they won't be supported by medivacs (no energy in the ones that didn't die), not that mention that dropping just leaves your main army and base vulnerable to a counter attack(which happens to kill a lot of terrans, frequently), and is easier to defend than it's to manage, because you have to stutter step way from simply warped-in zealots(Supernova died vs Hero in Metropolis mainly because of this, he tried to micro multiple drops at the same time which means he had to watch them, while HerO hit his weakened main army whilst feedbacking and warping-in zealots vs the drops, which takes a lot less screen time than dropping).Also, this "terran is stronger in the early game" bullshit has gotten way out of hand, especially in the current map pool where the rush distances are getting bigger and bigger, which btw, do not affect 6-7-8 gate all-ins and 3 gate pressures, now who again is stronger in the early game?Because I don't see working 2 rax pressures anymore, at least, their success is not even slightly close to that of the 3 gate. Regarding mech : Siege tanks die very fast and don't kill anything protoss related in due time, starting by their most basic unit, the zealot.Anyways, "The biggest thing that bothers me and makes me believe most people don't know what they are really talking about", okay, Mr.Irony. I definitely see your point that drops are nullified by good defense but not many protoss can play so perfectly. This idea that hey we can't drop anymore because any "semi-decent protoss" just counters with x,y, and z seems insane. It is the Terran's burden to find holes in a protoss's play and exploit it. This is like Zerg in BW where sitting back while a terran macros means death. Especially if the Terran went mech in BW. I guess if we assume a protoss has perfect map awareness and can utilize HT's perfectly then it might feel like an impossible uphill battle for a Terran. It is entirely possible this is a glaring imbalance that will only grow over time until a change is forced by Blizzard. I don't feel it has come to this point yet because there is maybe 1 or 2 protosses out there that can really pull perfect play off. An impenetrable turtle defense into a death push. Sounds like you're playing against Flash haha. People need to really change their mindset when playing if they want the metagame to evolve. I still honestly feel at the highest levels of play, the better player wins. This notion of TvP lategame imbalance is grossly exaggerated though I will concede its not perfect atm. Sound like you're not playing in the high level ? becuase it not hard to defend from drop or multiprong attack at all. I am not claiming to be a high level player. I just know the responses from watching a TON of pros play and following BW closely for a bit. I still feel it comes down to execution. If multi-prong drops are so easy to deal with then why do Koreans still do it. Because it works sometimes. Sometimes it is downright brutal how effective they are. Maybe I am relying too much on a protoss's mistake but this is what happens in real games. StarCraft is a game of tempo where you can force your opponent to make mistakes. This is true skill in my opinion when you can make a protoss player uncomfortable even in the late game. The threat of backstabs, a well executed flank, counter-attacks, strong turtle position to buy time, good viking maneuvering, strong ghost control. These are all options that terrans have with a mobile MMMVG army. If you feel a your terran army is unthreatening to a protoss death ball, you're probably doing it wrong.
So we need to rely on "Luck" to hope that The opponent is bad and can't keep up with drop ?
don't necessarily agree that dropping is needed to win against protoss. I tend to drop only in those rare occasions where it's almost 100% guaranteed damage. A lot of the times it's just a gamble. Of course if you react fast and move away once you see units you will most likely not lose anything, so that is fine as well. But sometimes you lose because you have 2 medivacs out on the map while he attacks your main army and defends with warp ins + cannonsIn TvT and TvZ you have a bigger defender's advantage because of tanks so it's safer when it comes to counterattacks. Also, they might have upgraded blink, or in rare cases have phoenix, whereas you just lose a chunk of your army and a snowball effect takes place. It can be very hard to know sometimes.
And this quote if from "Thorzain"
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EPT
