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TvP Lategame comment from Blizzard - Page 16

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JOJOsc2news
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
3000 Posts
May 04 2012 10:00 GMT
#301
It's amazing how many people only pick one point from the statement, isolate it and cry imbalance.
✉ Tweets @sc2channel ⌦ Blog: http://www.teamliquid.net/blog/JOJO ⌫ "Arbiterssss... build more arbiterssss." Click 'Profile' for awesome shiro art!
CaptainCrush
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States785 Posts
May 04 2012 10:02 GMT
#302
Now that they have finally commented on the state of late game TvP, that was pretty much the most pathetic comment they could have made on the subject. It only further encourages terran cheeze or one base all-ins since they obviously have no plans of changing anything in the near future. This on top of a couple of their latest changes really makes me worried about HotS. I dont think these guys have a good grasp on the game or its design, maybe BW was just a wonderful fluke.
Superouman
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
France2195 Posts
May 04 2012 10:03 GMT
#303
I was hoping for a future fix for pvt...

Please kill me, KILL ME NOW
Search "[SO]" on B.net to find all my maps ||| Cloud Kingdom / Turbo Cruise '84 / Bone Temple / Eternal Empire / Zen / Purity and Industry / Golden Wall / Fortitude / Beckett Industries / Waterfall
shadymmj
Profile Joined June 2010
1906 Posts
May 04 2012 10:04 GMT
#304
On May 04 2012 13:51 Ooshmagoosh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 04 2012 13:42 MattBarry wrote:
You know, I'm no expert on BW. I played it for a decade casually with no knowledge of a pro-scene. But from what I've read, isn't there a ticking time bomb where Terran has to do damage before Hive in TvZ. What exactly is the difference?


Even though bw bio has an issue dealing with ultralisks, cracklings, and well-controlled defilers, if the terran timing push didn't end the game there, but didn't get SMASHED, they had somewhat of an equalizer in the Science Vessel. How often do you see terrans on streams floating 2k gas sc2 tvp lategame? What the hell are they going to spend that gas on? Tanks that don't do full damage to shields? Ravens?


yes in the super late game a huge vessel cloud + cheap bio support is even stronger than ultra-ling. as long as the terran has good control and clears out most of the scourges that try to snipe the vessels. that is the saving grace for terran, as was mass ghost in sc2.
There is no such thing is "e-sports". There is Brood War, and then there is crap for nerds.
EmilA
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark4618 Posts
May 04 2012 10:10 GMT
#305
It's not like terran isn't used to playing against the clock vZ, it's just that it's way harder to make something happen against a race that has global warpins, stronger units, faster upgrades and only one upgrade line. Against zerg, you can make the army split up into much smaller fractions and take out some outlying bases, against protoss, dropping is like.. a miniscule chance to get ahead traded for a considerable chance of losing 20 food to one high templar and some warp ins.
http://dotabuff.com/players/122305951 playing other games
AdmrlAwesome
Profile Joined March 2012
Germany37 Posts
May 04 2012 10:12 GMT
#306
You can actually perform drops and force the Protoss to split their army

So, i see the Toss-Blobb advancing the middle, pull back my main army to defend and send out maybe 2-3 Medivacs to drop?
80-90% of midleague games will end up in a baserace where Protoss stomps the Terran base and then comes back to clear the drop.
Nitmal blaue lichd das dan wird bodnkalaschnikof chance gegen Magrins! Einfach schißt die boden an bis tod und dan einschlagt die fenster von prodoss haus und schändn die probe! -- Ferrix
scypio
Profile Joined December 2011
Poland2127 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-04 10:13:54
May 04 2012 10:12 GMT
#307
Thanks to that insightful post by blizzard I do feel encouraged to end each game before 12 minute mark vs toss now.

And to those who suggest mech switch late game... great idea, go roll out with 0/0 mech against 3/1/3 toss immortal/chargelot/archon. Good luck, you will certainly need it!
I play random | I like Hots | INnoVation | sOs | Tefel TOP1!
THM
Profile Joined November 2010
Bulgaria1131 Posts
May 04 2012 10:12 GMT
#308
On May 04 2012 13:55 WeaponX.7 wrote:
Here's the problem, damage done in the early doesnt matter once both sides hit 200/200 and in that late game. So basically blizzard just told terrans that they must win before the late game. If a terran drops and kills probes and snnipes a couple tech structures but cant finish the protoss off, what difference does that play if the protoss survives and maxes out? It means nothing.


I completely agree with this post.

I've been 1/2base allining every game vs toss on ladder since some months now, but being told by blizzard that that is what I actually have to do to win is rather disturbing.
Zarahtra
Profile Joined May 2010
Iceland4053 Posts
May 04 2012 10:15 GMT
#309
It's great to see Blizzard just saying "this is how we like it" for TvP. Jesus christ.

I mean TvZ lategame is very hard, but as long as you enter it not behind the zerg it is in the least doable with good control. vP it isn't doable with good control, it is doable if your opponent controls poorly. A superior player can at times force his opponent to control poorly, but even then I feel vP you just need to be so much better for that to happen.
Rampoon
Profile Joined May 2009
United Kingdom166 Posts
May 04 2012 10:16 GMT
#310
Haha well whatever you do don't go and read the b-net forums on the topic....

The amount of self righteous protoss players who have got 16 games under their belt in plat makes me want to rip my face off :D.

I don't like what they are doing but maybe it is because they have taken the decision that fixing it is too much work/too hard and so saying races are asymetric and T has to win before 15 mins (sorry have a "large" advantage) or just gg.

Doesn't make for a very exciting game in the majority of games IMO.
Killmouse
Profile Joined August 2010
Austria5700 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-04 10:17:53
May 04 2012 10:16 GMT
#311
i think the main problem is not the 200 vs the 200 clash , its just when terrans kills the whole army , protoss with a good economy just can remax in an instant(20 chargelots 4- 5 archons anyone?) and crush the terran army T.T

thats why its so hard to beat a protoss when they get past 3 bases
yo
Douillos
Profile Joined May 2010
France3195 Posts
May 04 2012 10:19 GMT
#312
I say. MVP lead the way
Look a giraffe! Look a fist!!
Douillos
Profile Joined May 2010
France3195 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-04 10:21:01
May 04 2012 10:20 GMT
#313
I find the problem with what hes said is that EVEN if you denied the 3rd nexus twice, sniped forges, tech structures, probes in the mid game. The end fight will always be tough for Terran against a 1-A toss.
Look a giraffe! Look a fist!!
EmilA
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark4618 Posts
May 04 2012 10:20 GMT
#314
On May 04 2012 19:19 Douillos wrote:
I say. MVP lead the way


Guess we're all to proxy 1 base all in now
http://dotabuff.com/players/122305951 playing other games
furo
Profile Joined March 2012
Germany449 Posts
May 04 2012 10:21 GMT
#315
On May 04 2012 19:19 Douillos wrote:
I say. MVP lead the way


yea lets play it like in the beta :p
Exarl25
Profile Joined November 2010
1887 Posts
May 04 2012 10:21 GMT
#316
Why the hell are people talking about this like the early, mid and late game are completely separate scenarios that exist in a vacuum? There is snowballing in SC2, if you have an advantage in the early game then you have the ability to go into the mid game in the lead, etc.

A buff to the Terran mid game would also be a buff to their late game for example. Protoss would have to cut tech or expand slower to stay safe, or the Terran could simply play greedier themselves. If Terran really are stronger in the early and mid game then assuming equal skill of the players the Terran should always be going into the late game at an advantage. If it goes to the late game with Protoss equal to or ahead of the Terran, despite the Protoss being weaker at every point previous to that, then the Terran has fucked up somewhere.

It's not a case of, "Oh this means that Terran has to win before 15 minutes or they lose, what stupid design", that's an absurdly shallow way of thinking about it. In BW there were matchups where the max army of one race was objectively more powerful than that of the other. This was not imbalance or bad design, it's not like both players start out max v max with perfect army compositions and max upgrades, a shit ton of stuff happens before you get to that point

Not to mention that we have other matchups even in SC2 where things are similar. You play against a Zerg as Terran or Protoss without threatening them at all for 15 minutes and you are fucked, unless you are playing an absurdly greedy game yourself.
Douillos
Profile Joined May 2010
France3195 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-04 10:23:11
May 04 2012 10:23 GMT
#317
On May 04 2012 19:21 Exarl25 wrote:
Why the hell are people talking about this like the early, mid and late game are completely separate scenarios that exist in a vacuum? There is snowballing in SC2, if you have an advantage in the early game then you have the ability to go into the mid game in the lead, etc.

A buff to the Terran mid game would also be a buff to their late game for example. Protoss would have to cut tech or expand slower to stay safe, or the Terran could simply play greedier themselves. If Terran really are stronger in the early and mid game then assuming equal skill of the players the Terran should always be going into the late game at an advantage. If it goes to the late game with Protoss equal to or ahead of the Terran, despite the Protoss being weaker at every point previous to that, then the Terran has fucked up somewhere.

It's not a case of, "Oh this means that Terran has to win before 15 minutes or they lose, what stupid design", that's an absurdly shallow way of thinking about it. In BW there were matchups where the max army of one race was objectively more powerful than that of the other. This was not imbalance or bad design, it's not like both players start out max v max with perfect army compositions and max upgrades, a shit ton of stuff happens before you get to that point

Not to mention that we have other matchups even in SC2 where things are similar. You play against a Zerg as Terran or Protoss without threatening them at all for 15 minutes and you are fucked, unless you are playing an absurdly greedy game yourself.


The thing is, the damage that must be done to stay on an even foot is absurd. You can get your third deny his and have better upgrades. 1 money storm and its over.
Look a giraffe! Look a fist!!
Rampoon
Profile Joined May 2009
United Kingdom166 Posts
May 04 2012 10:24 GMT
#318
Also, I wonder what they will say when Z (with the new fixes) and P (with improving play/sense) finally stop T being able to get advantages in the early/mid game.

Although maybe they are hoping HOTS will be out by then and they can leave WOL for dead
sc2holar
Profile Joined October 2011
Sweden1637 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-04 10:25:23
May 04 2012 10:24 GMT
#319
Unless you are playing in a reversed time dimension, having the upper hand in the early/midgame is always better than having the lategame advantage. early/midgame always happens, so you always get a chance to use your back of tricks, and potentially prevent the game from even reaching the lategame.

Most of the games dont reach the 25min mark.
you no take candle
s3rp
Profile Joined May 2011
Germany3192 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-04 10:26:32
May 04 2012 10:24 GMT
#320
On May 04 2012 19:19 Douillos wrote:
I say. MVP lead the way


With 1-2 Bases All-Ins , Cheeses and Pushes and maybe mix in a macro game to throw the Protoss off. There isn't much to innovate anymore . Longer games will allways result in MMMVG . Its the only army that can keep up with Warpgate production while still doing well in fights. Anything but MMMVG will just get overrun after an even trade since it can't reproduce as fast .
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