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On May 04 2012 18:27 vthree wrote:problem with terrans is that they are the hardest race to tech switch mid/late game. Ps can switch to templar tech if their colossi get killed by lots of vikings or to colossi if their HT faces too many ghosts... You cannot as a terran switch to mech once you lose your M&M ball. Sure, mech+ghosts + vikings ear toss aoe. But it takes so long to build up that unless the P doesn't scout you for 7-8 minutes, they will have enough zealots, immortals, orbs to deal with your army.
i know, P can switch since the upgrades goes for all the ground units. T cant.
so you should in theory open mech vs P but you dont get the 3rd/4th base too easy and you cant apply pressure.
if the metagame shifted into mech openings again or P is not allowed to get 3/3 upgraded techswitches for "free" which they have right now it would be more interesting imo.
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On May 04 2012 18:32 Jarree wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:18 mcc wrote:On May 04 2012 18:11 Jarree wrote:On May 04 2012 18:05 mcc wrote:On May 04 2012 18:04 Jarree wrote:On May 04 2012 17:50 furo wrote:
The metagame right now favours P in lategame, but that has nothing to do with balance. P's are techning and upgrading very fast in the midgame right now, this obv leaves them vulnerable in the midgame and strong in the lategame.
It has absolutely nothing to do with metagame. Give both T and P 3-3 upgrades, 200 supply, 2k bank and 5 bases. P is heavily favored. And that is the balance problem why ? Did I say it was? I thought i said it has nothing to do with metagame. If you were not complaining about balance then second part of your post has no relation to what he said. And it actually easily can be metagame issue exactly because what you said. He said protoss late game is stronger because they rush upgrades and tech, meaning they get them faster than terran ie. because of metagame. I proposed a situation where both players have equal max tech and upgrades and claimed P is stronger. What part do you not get? You can disagree P is not stronger in that situation, that is a fair opinion of course.
P does not win vs T if the T has mech/ghost/airsupport
obv P wins vs bioballs easily (asuming same control) since their 200ish army have alot more army value than bio balls.
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Kinda hard to be aggressive midgame as Terran when an aggressive Protoss can force you into hiding inbase with several bunkers until medivacs come out. Meanwhile the Protoss is teching behind the aggression and taking a 3rd base. This is pretty ridiculous.
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Argh, the ticking time bomb... It exists in almost every non-mirror MU I feel.
As far as TvP is concerned, I believe the main difference to BW is that in BW both T and P had a ticking bomb on their side:
-->T had an almost unbeatable 200/200 siege tank, vulture (vessel, goliath) composition going for them which is incredibly cost-efficient.
--> Protoss had the advantage of going mass expand and just outproduce the Terran.
So basically Terrans had to fear that Protoss gets too many bases and Protoss had to be afraid that Terran gets too many upgrades and a maxed army. In order to prevent that from happening, both races had tools to pressure their opponent and to harass. Be it Reaver drops, Arbiter recalls, Shuttle drops or Vulture harassment. Both races had the arsenal to prevent the other one's ticking bomb from exploding while trying to blow up their own bomb.
Sure, Terran lategame was in BW in a sense stronger in terms of army vs. army. But if Protoss cut into T's production by using recalls, established bases and got a ton of gateways then they could still beat the Terran. On the other hand Terrans had to apply pressure to prevent the Protoss from getting too much economy and use spider mines to make reinforcing harder for toss.
Now let us look at SC2:
Protoss has a ticking bomb. Terran doesn't.
Terran has tools to harass. Protoss doesn't.
The game comes down to: Does Terran do enough damage to Toss before they are both maxed?
---> That is not interesting.
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On May 04 2012 18:09 Harstem wrote:
Isnt this the exact same in PvZ? Goodluck just sitting there and not doing any damage vs broodlord infestor max @ 15 mins.
+1
I guess it was only a matter of time after the latest GSL results that such a thread emerged...
It obviously is a tad bit complicated to try major balance changes now in WoL, while HotS is coming rather soon and is making "tabula rasa" with the current metagame and the overall balance of the game.
Strengthening bio/mech or weakening Protoss late will not only change the whole equation in this matchup - but also in ZvP and ZvT. I don´t see how what Blizzard is dealing with it unreasonably or "not giving a shit".
They have a decently - far from perfect - but decently balanced game and are building HotS and its units around it to make up for WoL shortcomings.
Again : Why make major balance changes now and increase the upcoming balance clusterfuck more, when HotS is going to change even more after that - which will make it even more difficult to give us a rather well balanced game in a reasonable amount of time?
It was planned and should be well known that Sc2 will have 3 parts with 3 campaigns and 3 races - that not only gives Blizzard more cash than just 1 game + addon but also gives them more opportunites and time to balance the game. Hate it or love it - that´s how it is going to be.
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I began playing Sc2 as Terran only and my experience from other strategic games gave me the approach of trying to take it to a macro stage, where i usually had my strenghts. I was ok with it for as long as i was in Bronze/Silver but the higher the league i promoted to, the harder it got to win with that approach, eventhough i felt sometimes playing way more thoughtful and faster than my opponents. There came a time in platin league where i won about 90% of the mirrors, but only one out of ten against protoss. It took me some time and lots of reading to figure out that i was playing terran wrong for a very long time. Its just depressing to lose with +80apm total macro mode vs a 40apm-Protoss that wins cause he only build splashunits. After figuring the shifting balanced in gameprogress my winratio got better overall, nevertheless i recently settled over to playing zerg, only cause the macroability fits my playstyle much better. I consider it way easier to prepare against early pressure while macroing hard and overwhelm the enemy with tech and mass lateron, than having the need to perform timing pushes WHILE arranging a followup in case it doesnt kill WHILE putting up a wealthy economy to support a possible followup. Playing Terran is imo too often: perform timing and kill with it or gg out. Sad blizz wants it that way.
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On May 04 2012 18:34 Absurdly wrote:
Kinda hard to be aggressive midgame as Terran when an aggressive Protoss can force you into hiding inbase with several bunkers until medivacs come out. Meanwhile the Protoss is teching behind the aggression and taking a 3rd base. This is pretty ridiculous.
P cant do that.
and mostly 2 bunkers are enough unless you scout a early warpin pylon for a 6gate all-in.
there are alot of fake pressure builds with max 1-3 centries, just hold it, sell the bunkers and kill him off 5 rax
if you see tons of centries he does not tech or take a 3rd, in this case build 4 bunkers to be safe and play 2v2 base and just kill him with 6 medivacs and 1-1 upgrades.
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I believe there is so many things wrong with this mob mentality about late game TvP. Sorry if this comes off as a flame in anyway but this is just how I see it.
1) TvP late game is a little harder for the Terran but not impossible
2) The refusal to innovate and simply play better is what separates Koreans from non-Koreans
3) StarCraft is a complex game and stop pretending you have it all figured it out
I guess I should try to explain some of my points. Terrans can hold their own in the late game. I bet its hard when terrible players just rush mmm+viking+ghost and think they've done everything possible to hold off a death ball in the middle of an open map. This is not the only way to play TvP late game despite how many people expect. You can actually perform drops and force the Protoss to split their army which is a common solution. Rather than focusing on the strengths of a Protoss army, Terrans should simply find the weaknesses. Mobility and positioning come into mind.
People refuse to believe mech has any place in the matchup which is insane. It is off the table for 90% of players because all the strategies they've seen and tried failed miserably. This really just means that no one really figured out how to use mech in tvp yet and it is not the same as mech is impossible don't bother. MVP and I believe MKP have opted for some very unique tank play and holding strategic ramps. People may argue these were just parts of mid-game pushes and completely ignore that tanks were pretty good at holding positions on the maps like small chokes. (shocker)
The biggest thing that bothers me and makes me believe most people don't know what they are really talking about is when they talk about the late-game in a bubble. The late-game is a progression from the early and mid-game. In an entire game of opportunities people simply assume, each player macroed perfectly and never really made any outcome-altering moves during the early to mid-game then a protoss player should beat a terran player. This is completely ignoring all the positioning, map balance, map control, etc that a player has at the time. Is it entirely possible a Terran that has map control before a protoss's death push has an advantage because they can control where to drop and flank? What about choosing to engage protoss only at narrow chokes and choosing only to flank from multiple sides? Maybe we should just assume a collosus is melting terran from all 4 angles while storms are perfectly laid and no chances of dodging is available.
I really think Blizzard's response is correct because HotS in on the horizon and they shouldn't bother fixing what really isn't broken. There were periods in Brood War when Zerg found it impossible to play competitively against high level terrans until the brilliance of some bonjwa came and showed an ailing race "how its done." I would believe there was a problem if I never saw a late-game Terran beat a late-game Toss convincingly. I really think it really comes down to something 90+% of the whiners don't quite understand. Execution matters.
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On May 04 2012 18:24 Ameisenmann wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:19 furo wrote:On May 04 2012 18:04 Jarree wrote:On May 04 2012 17:50 furo wrote:
The metagame right now favours P in lategame, but that has nothing to do with balance. P's are techning and upgrading very fast in the midgame right now, this obv leaves them vulnerable in the midgame and strong in the lategame.
It has absolutely nothing to do with metagame. Give both T and P 3-3 upgrades, 200 supply, 2k bank and 5 bases. P is heavily favored. of course its the metagame just look thorzain play, he is less aggressive midgame for a stronger lategame. takes his third a little faster, has more gas for tech and upgrades than metagame. well bio vs mass aoe is bad for obv reasons, you dont need to balance that. mech + ghost + viking eats toss aoe alive with equal upgrades, but as i said before the metagame right now is bio + early/midgame pressure to not get into an equal lategame. if the P has his upgrades and tech its G_G since the terran's plan to end it midgame failed (since mostly the P was better than the T). we (terran) cant be favoured everywhere with m&m&m&g, colos+templar counters it with equal upgrades and unit control since they win the range fight/position fight. thats why T loses late, and it would be imbalanced if they (we) won That makes it sound like bio should only ever work in early to mid game. But what other options are there? Mech? T3 Tech? I don't think so, and that's where I think the real problem lies. Sure terran already has tons of options throughout the game, but it kind of ends at the late game, especially in TvP for obvious reasons. It would be nice if blizzard could make some of the later tech options or mech TvP more viable without ruining balance overall.
Actually, this "well bio vs mass aoe is bad for obv reasons, you dont need to balance that." sounds like, and I am gonna paraphrase him to get my point across in an easier manner : 'well undead vs orc is bad for obv reasons, you dont need to balance that, I mean they are freaking orcs!', as if it's a set thing in life that we've got and have to deal with, this guy is worse than one of those histerically funny 'but you haven't tried these cool strats!' kind of guys, he actually says that mmvg "eats toss alive"(this guy doesn't play terran, not a chance).
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The advantage of terran in the midgame... wait, what?
protoss has better tech and can get upgrades faster then terran, and they can play defensive as hell
how do you push that?
i don't really complain about balance usually as i accept it, but blizz saying this just really pissed me off...
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If this is the case dear Blizzard, then why is the ladder maps almost all really big and have easy thirds?
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TvP is no different from PvZ, you have to do damage in the mid-game or you lose to broodlord/infestor. get over it.
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On May 04 2012 18:45 Ushi wrote:
I believe there is so many things wrong with this mob mentality about late game TvP. Sorry if this comes off as a flame in anyway but this is just how I see it.
1) TvP late game is a little harder for the Terran but not impossible
2) The refusal to innovate and simply play better is what separates Koreans from non-Koreans
3) StarCraft is a complex game and stop pretending you have it all figured it out
I guess I should try to explain some of my points. Terrans can hold their own in the late game. I bet its hard when terrible players just rush mmm+viking+ghost and think they've done everything possible to hold off a death ball in the middle of an open map. This is not the only way to play TvP late game despite how many people expect. You can actually perform drops and force the Protoss to split their army which is a common solution. Rather than focusing on the strengths of a Protoss army, Terrans should simply find the weaknesses. Mobility and positioning come into mind.
People refuse to believe mech has any place in the matchup which is insane. It is off the table for 90% of players because all the strategies they've seen and tried failed miserably. This really just means that no one really figured out how to use mech in tvp yet and it is not the same as mech is impossible don't bother. MVP and I believe MKP have opted for some very unique tank play and holding strategic ramps. People may argue these were just parts of mid-game pushes and completely ignore that tanks were pretty good at holding positions on the maps like small chokes. (shocker)
The biggest thing that bothers me and makes me believe most people don't know what they are really talking about is when they talk about the late-game in a bubble. The late-game is a progression from the early and mid-game. In an entire game of opportunities people simply assume, each player macroed perfectly and never really made any outcome-altering moves during the early to mid-game then a protoss player should beat a terran player. This is completely ignoring all the positioning, map balance, map control, etc that a player has at the time. Is it entirely possible a Terran that has map control before a protoss's death push has an advantage because they can control where to drop and flank? What about choosing to engage protoss only at narrow chokes and choosing only to flank from multiple sides? Maybe we should just assume a collosus is melting terran from all 4 angles while storms are perfectly laid and no chances of dodging is available.
I really think Blizzard's response is correct because HotS in on the horizon and they shouldn't bother fixing what really isn't broken. There were periods in Brood War when Zerg found it impossible to play competitively against high level terrans until the brilliance of some bonjwa came and showed an ailing race "how its done." I would believe there was a problem if I never saw a late-game Terran beat a late-game Toss convincingly. I really think it really comes down to something 90+% of the whiners don't quite understand. Execution matters.
i want to see replay or it become only theory craft ....
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its funny how terrans simply "gave up" on trying to use blue flame drops (or hellions in general against chargelots) as well as mass ghost in lategame. They are still very useful units, despite nerfs.
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People may argue these were just parts of mid-game pushes and completely ignore that tanks were pretty good at holding positions on the maps like small chokes. (shocker)
Did you watch g1 SuperNoVa vs HerO? HerO was transitioning out of a 4 gate and SuperNoVa went for a tank contain with 3 bunkers and HerO busted it with chargelots with ease. It might have worked before the zealots got charge. But tanks are pretty bad since charge is done and toss has a decent number of zealots.
In regards to drops, top protoss can hold most drops which one cannon, one HT and warp-ins. Again terrans HAVE to drop before HT tech is done.
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Everything that blizzard seems to do is fiddle around with the metagame itself in their vision and not the communities/pros. We wont see any of the innovations that we saw from BW if this attitude is carried over to the expansions ala HOTS.
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The last thing I do for Starcraft 2 is translating this article into Chinese. After reading Blizzard's comment, I was totally depressed, not by the fact that Blizzard won't buff Terran or so (for P is my 2nd race), but the stupid(sry for using this word..) logic underlying the game.
bye SC2, bye all...
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And a great example is "drops" that T is forced to do in this matchup. In BW, you weren't forced to drop in any matchup yet can still win without it. It was like the icying on the cake or something that "could" tip the favor to you. In SC2, your forced to do it, if you dont well then your going to be behind since the longer that game goes, the more advantageous P gets..
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I would believe there was a problem if I never saw a late-game Terran beat a late-game Toss convincingly. I really think it really comes down to something 90+% of the whiners don't quite understand. Execution matters.
And previously, terrans lost to Protoss and Zergs even with ghosts. They didn't stop Blizzard from 'balancing' them. Of course execution matters. But given equal high execution on both sides, Ps seems to have an advantage in the late game.
Why did EMP radius get nerfed? Protoss can just 'split' their army...
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EPT
