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On May 04 2012 17:25 LF9 wrote:
*angry protoss whining here*
tldr; Zerg doesn't cry about being put in the position of the being reacting, having to be constantly a base ahead of the other races. Likewise, Terran need to quit bitching about TvP, because they are more mobile AND can expand far more safely, meaning their role is to pressure and drop and use mobility and power to get map control and occupy P while expanding. Arguing equal base, equal supply scenarios is apples and oranges.
You keep talking about extra bases like it's something special; like a Terran player should be on 4 bases before the Protoss has his 3rd.
You completely fail to understand the fact that having more than 3 bases, except for gas (something not that limiting until you're basically maxed as Terran), is actually detrimental to you than it is helpful.
Now, as a Terran I can happily take an extremely fast 3rd, whilst dropping and teching, and get maxed at 14 minutes whilst the Protoss is on 140-150 food. Sure, that's easy. By the time I push there, let's say they're on 160 food. Terran should clearly win by your logic.
But the Protoss players know they have to be defensive because they know that if they can max out with all their tech then they've basically won. So they expect aggression from the Terran. As a result, they'll have 90% of their army at their natural/third to defend and the rest in the main to do drops. It's next to impossible to break a turtling Protoss thanks to forcefields and the current map pool.
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Silly Terran players, thinking they should be able to play the way they want to, You will do what Dustin Browder has envisioned for you, OR ELSE. And by else, I mean a Raven nerf.
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On May 04 2012 17:11 Jarree wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:08 Jimmeh wrote:On May 04 2012 16:56 mell0w wrote:On May 04 2012 16:54 Gelenn wrote:
Give terran bio an upgrade at fusion core. +1 marine range?
Or give them tech reactor at fusion core so they can bank more production for after a late game engagement to help deal with warpins.
Would be cool, but what do I know? I'm no game designer. The fix might as well be something simple like removing energy from Thors or BCs. Bio units are perfectly balanced as they are right now. What's preventing Terran from mech other than Tanks and Hellions against protoss is their ability to feedback, and Terran's inability to expend energy of the aforementioned units before half their health is taken away. In fact, they once took energy away from Thors and they were used quite well in TvP, but reverted the change for a reason I don't recall. If they change Thors from a T2 unit to a T3 unit, requiring the fusion core to make them, and removed their energy, I think things might be fine again. ThorZain basically got it nerfed after killing MC and a few other Protoss with a really nice Thor timing push. Blizzard's official explanation was they "wanted to create an interesting dynamic by adding the possibility of feedback". Yes, never ever seeing another Thor certainly is an "interesting dynamic".
And yet I see Thor compositions against protoss and they are winning even in pro play. That it is not a big percentage of matches is the point. Unit compositions in BW matchups seem even more codified and I enjoy BW more than SC2 even though I started watching it long after SC2. Having dominant unit compositions is not a problem, as long as other compositions can be used in specific circumstances.
As for people stating that terran has to all-in before time X. That is not what Blizzard is saying, they are saying that properly employed mid-game pressure will leave terran on equal footing with protoss in the late game. Not all pressure is all-in. Most people are just whining and misrepresenting what is being said by Blizzard. If noone attacks each other in TvP there is no reason for the lategame to be balanced in that scenario. Balance of the game is not only in unit compositions and reinforcement capabilities. There easily might be positions in the game where terran even though seemingly ok is not supposed to win, the point is he made some subtle mistake earlier and now is dead. Even without losing any fights. There is yet to be any significant evidence that there is no way for terran to reach the very late game and be on equal footing with the protoss.
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The solution is simple: fire David Kim, and get a smarter balance maker. Done.
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On May 04 2012 16:26 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 16:20 willll wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2012 15:33 avilo wrote:
Btw, myself and many other Terran's have suggested plenty of things that they could actually do to start balancing out lategame, and I have no idea if blizzard has considered any but:
Lategame TvZ:
-Tweak raven energy to 75 for HSM, remove the energy upgrade. This gives Terran a unit against broodlord/infestor, as well as a lategame splash unit in general. It would be as "imbalanced" as broodlord+infestor+corruptor currently is, aka just like brood war. They need to start taking this stance in their balance design - make things powerful, instead of nerf, nerf, nerf.
Broodlord infestor is powerful as fuck lategame, but giving Terran something equally as powerful to use such as a 75 nrg HSM means not only does Terran get lategame power just like Zerg does in this situation, but both players have incredibly strong things that can actually counteract the other.
In Brood war, irradiate and defilers were both "IMBALANCED" but the game ended up being very dynamic and excellent regardless. People have really lost touch with this because they don't remember just how damn good brood war is. Do people realize that defilers literally made all of their zerg ground units INVINCIBLE against 99% of Terran's units? Do people realize the science vessel actually could have enough energy for two irradiates that would kill every single Zerg unit and do splash to units around those? (ok it didn't kill the ultra, but it took out half it's health!)
The keys to making this game "good" are all there, it's just it seems the design team does not want to take anything from Starcraft 1 in concept/idea/design to get SC2 to where the balance needs to be. It's a bit disappointing, considering 99% of us are playing SC2 because of how awesome BW is.
Lategame PvT:
-Make BCS more viable/change price/something
BCS are Terran's tier3, there is potential there to make that a transition unit for Terrans. It actually can be in the current game, but it requires 45 min+ stalemate situations (believe me, I probably have the most experience of any Terrans in 45 min+ games).
-Nerf the warpgate for the purpose of nerfing protoss's mid-game all-in strength across the board in all three match-ups.
Protoss was never meant to have an expoitable assortment of 2 base all-ins vs Z/T. The warp prism was supposed to provide this function of allowing itself to be a mobile warp generator. To fix a lot of issues for PvT lategame, and Protoss all-ins in general (including retarded 1 base all-ins PvP) simply make it so you can only warp in units AROUND GATEWAYS.
What this ends up doing is it makes Protoss as a race harder, because all-ins in the manner they are done nowadays will only be accessible through a warp prism. It also means that in lategame TvP if Terran has outplayed the Protoss the Terran is actually given an opportunity via time and travel distance to punish Protoss's expansions/bases. Yes, protoss can still build gateways at far away bases, but that becomes an investment/risk and obviously make the warp-in radius not gigantic so a Protoss player now also has to consider base layout as well.
It removes the entire advantage protoss has of simply avoiding travel distance, which is one of the fundamental problems right now with SC2 protoss, and then makes Protoss a less "easy" race to play, which is good.
-Late game chargelots
They require no micro, and are bad for the game in general. Do something that makes the protoss player actually have to watch them/micro them instead of simply warp in and go afk.
-Mech vs Protoss - FIX IT!
Terran mech is brood war, just because it's brood war does not mean it's bad *I'm looking at Dustin Browder right now*. In beta, you could go full ghost mech against protoss, and play long macro games even on ridiculously large maps, because siege tanks always were cost effective with their brood war damage, meaning if you were already pre-sieged, and protoss engaged like a caveman, you would always, always get your money's worth.
But Browder/Kim seem to have something against anything that is like "brood war" and they nerfed the siege tank, buffed the chargelot, and that was the nail in the coffin for mech tvp. A lot of people do not even remember this change if they did not play the beta, but this is why mech has become a "relic of the past" because of pre-emptive changes to make the game less like broodwar, and encourage Terrans to use the 1A marauder instead.
Mech can be made viable TvP, blizzard can do it, let's hope they will instead of side skirting around the issue. They can cheapen armory prices/mech/sky upgrade prices, remove thor energy, things of this nature, along with looking at the zealot armor type and making it so tanks can actually kill chargelots in siege mode lategame...
There's a lot that can be done to make Terran viable in lategame, that blizzard simply is not doing right now, whether out of fear that the game will be like brood war with "lots of siege tanks" or for whatever other reasons or because of the fear that Terran will be "imba" like it was ORIGINALLY in beta...but they really need to realize there is a balance problem right now and simply ignoring it and saying "Protoss has the advantage when they defend all your harass" is not the way to go about it.
No Terran, no pro terran, not even any Terran in lower leagues is going to be happy that blizzard has no acknowledged they are at a disadvantage when the game goes long. IT's just wrong. If we agree with Blizz assertions that TvP favors T in the early game and P if game continues with little damage, then any downgrade of lategame P has to be met with an upgrade to early game P or a downgrade to early game T. What do you suggest? What, exactly, is it that is so weak about Protoss earlygame compared to terran? I mean... Gateway composition with competent forcefields can hold most bio attacks pre-medivacs/P aoe. Medivac+upgrade timings are pretty strong, but generally limited in transitions if you don't do enough damage, in the same vein of 6gate pressure to a T expo before stim, using forcefields to stop bunker repair. Sure, there's a window where t2.5-3 medivacs and upgrades gives T a pretty big advantage against pure gateway, but in turn there are also windows for gateway timings to do big damage to pure bio armies early as well...
I am accepting the Blizz arguments at face value. But you have to accept both sides. You cannot arbitrarily say "well, T<P lategame if no damage, therefore buff T lategame or nerf P lategame." You have to accept both sides of the discussion. I would guess (with NO expert knowledge), that early T pushes such as marine scv rushes, 2 rax + scv rushes, and 1/1/1 with scv are the main T weapons. Usually these revolve around the mule as well (i.e., if you attack with all your army and all scvs, and I kill all your army and scv's, but lose all my army and probes, mule will push 6 marines out to kill me off).
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I don't understand why blizzard doesn't remove the energy on the thor and battlecruisers and put a cooldown in place. It's not like battlecruisers are used anyways and thors are basically useless now because of templars.
Or at least lower the energy pool of thors as well as the energy cost of strike cannons so that feedback doesn't hurt as much. It could create an interesting situation where protoss has to chose between using templar energy to damage the thors or storm.
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I find it strange that people (Protoss, exclusively as far as I can tell from icons) think that *doing damage in the mid-game* somehow means taking an advantage for the late game. But that's just empty words. What it means is that the terran hits a timing that does enough damage that the game ends, yet the Protoss gg's later. Even if the Protoss that has a heavily damaged economy gets tech, I would not call that a late-game. It's the terran playing safe and not over-extending in favour of crushing the Protoss safely. The equivalent is a Protoss holding off a 6-pool easily and finishing the game 4-5 minutes later, or a Z crushing a Terran 2-base push and finishing the game with broodlords. If the damage was significant, the game is already over.
The problem people have is that terrans are forced into playing strategies which apex early, rather than macroing while harassing (which is the most interesting and fun way to play). And the reward they get is that terrans are always called cheesers or gimmicky players, while it's not their own choice. I'm surprised not more pros are calling Blizz out on this, considering that this design choice makes terran players far less marketable than those of either of the two races.
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Just buff Terran Mech please, seriously. Blizz you are going to introduce the Warhound that is good against mechanical units as well as beefy battle hellion to solve tvp mech anyway...
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On May 04 2012 17:45 willll wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 16:26 GTPGlitch wrote:On May 04 2012 16:20 willll wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2012 15:33 avilo wrote:
Btw, myself and many other Terran's have suggested plenty of things that they could actually do to start balancing out lategame, and I have no idea if blizzard has considered any but:
Lategame TvZ:
-Tweak raven energy to 75 for HSM, remove the energy upgrade. This gives Terran a unit against broodlord/infestor, as well as a lategame splash unit in general. It would be as "imbalanced" as broodlord+infestor+corruptor currently is, aka just like brood war. They need to start taking this stance in their balance design - make things powerful, instead of nerf, nerf, nerf.
Broodlord infestor is powerful as fuck lategame, but giving Terran something equally as powerful to use such as a 75 nrg HSM means not only does Terran get lategame power just like Zerg does in this situation, but both players have incredibly strong things that can actually counteract the other.
In Brood war, irradiate and defilers were both "IMBALANCED" but the game ended up being very dynamic and excellent regardless. People have really lost touch with this because they don't remember just how damn good brood war is. Do people realize that defilers literally made all of their zerg ground units INVINCIBLE against 99% of Terran's units? Do people realize the science vessel actually could have enough energy for two irradiates that would kill every single Zerg unit and do splash to units around those? (ok it didn't kill the ultra, but it took out half it's health!)
The keys to making this game "good" are all there, it's just it seems the design team does not want to take anything from Starcraft 1 in concept/idea/design to get SC2 to where the balance needs to be. It's a bit disappointing, considering 99% of us are playing SC2 because of how awesome BW is.
Lategame PvT:
-Make BCS more viable/change price/something
BCS are Terran's tier3, there is potential there to make that a transition unit for Terrans. It actually can be in the current game, but it requires 45 min+ stalemate situations (believe me, I probably have the most experience of any Terrans in 45 min+ games).
-Nerf the warpgate for the purpose of nerfing protoss's mid-game all-in strength across the board in all three match-ups.
Protoss was never meant to have an expoitable assortment of 2 base all-ins vs Z/T. The warp prism was supposed to provide this function of allowing itself to be a mobile warp generator. To fix a lot of issues for PvT lategame, and Protoss all-ins in general (including retarded 1 base all-ins PvP) simply make it so you can only warp in units AROUND GATEWAYS.
What this ends up doing is it makes Protoss as a race harder, because all-ins in the manner they are done nowadays will only be accessible through a warp prism. It also means that in lategame TvP if Terran has outplayed the Protoss the Terran is actually given an opportunity via time and travel distance to punish Protoss's expansions/bases. Yes, protoss can still build gateways at far away bases, but that becomes an investment/risk and obviously make the warp-in radius not gigantic so a Protoss player now also has to consider base layout as well.
It removes the entire advantage protoss has of simply avoiding travel distance, which is one of the fundamental problems right now with SC2 protoss, and then makes Protoss a less "easy" race to play, which is good.
-Late game chargelots
They require no micro, and are bad for the game in general. Do something that makes the protoss player actually have to watch them/micro them instead of simply warp in and go afk.
-Mech vs Protoss - FIX IT!
Terran mech is brood war, just because it's brood war does not mean it's bad *I'm looking at Dustin Browder right now*. In beta, you could go full ghost mech against protoss, and play long macro games even on ridiculously large maps, because siege tanks always were cost effective with their brood war damage, meaning if you were already pre-sieged, and protoss engaged like a caveman, you would always, always get your money's worth.
But Browder/Kim seem to have something against anything that is like "brood war" and they nerfed the siege tank, buffed the chargelot, and that was the nail in the coffin for mech tvp. A lot of people do not even remember this change if they did not play the beta, but this is why mech has become a "relic of the past" because of pre-emptive changes to make the game less like broodwar, and encourage Terrans to use the 1A marauder instead.
Mech can be made viable TvP, blizzard can do it, let's hope they will instead of side skirting around the issue. They can cheapen armory prices/mech/sky upgrade prices, remove thor energy, things of this nature, along with looking at the zealot armor type and making it so tanks can actually kill chargelots in siege mode lategame...
There's a lot that can be done to make Terran viable in lategame, that blizzard simply is not doing right now, whether out of fear that the game will be like brood war with "lots of siege tanks" or for whatever other reasons or because of the fear that Terran will be "imba" like it was ORIGINALLY in beta...but they really need to realize there is a balance problem right now and simply ignoring it and saying "Protoss has the advantage when they defend all your harass" is not the way to go about it.
No Terran, no pro terran, not even any Terran in lower leagues is going to be happy that blizzard has no acknowledged they are at a disadvantage when the game goes long. IT's just wrong. If we agree with Blizz assertions that TvP favors T in the early game and P if game continues with little damage, then any downgrade of lategame P has to be met with an upgrade to early game P or a downgrade to early game T. What do you suggest? What, exactly, is it that is so weak about Protoss earlygame compared to terran? I mean... Gateway composition with competent forcefields can hold most bio attacks pre-medivacs/P aoe. Medivac+upgrade timings are pretty strong, but generally limited in transitions if you don't do enough damage, in the same vein of 6gate pressure to a T expo before stim, using forcefields to stop bunker repair. Sure, there's a window where t2.5-3 medivacs and upgrades gives T a pretty big advantage against pure gateway, but in turn there are also windows for gateway timings to do big damage to pure bio armies early as well... I am accepting the Blizz arguments at face value. But you have to accept both sides. You cannot arbitrarily say "well, T<P lategame if no damage, therefore buff T lategame or nerf P lategame." You have to accept both sides of the discussion. I would guess (with NO expert knowledge), that early T pushes such as marine scv rushes, 2 rax + scv rushes, and 1/1/1 with scv are the main T weapons. Usually these revolve around the mule as well (i.e., if you attack with all your army and all scvs, and I kill all your army and scv's, but lose all my army and probes, mule will push 6 marines out to kill me off).
And that is exactly what everyone is complaining about. Noone is claiming that T is weak in TvP early/mid game. At all. The problem is that 1-base and 2-base all-ins are just dull. T's don't want to have to rely on having to deal large amounts of damage early on only to be able to stand a chance in the lategame. Similarly, T's don't want to have to rely on building the same units as their core army at minute 3 of the game as they do at minute 30.
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it's still to early in the game to talk about balance.
I'm a terran myself and suck vs P lategame, but it's just because my army control is not good enough.
if you see players like thorzain and puma play lategame vs P you cant talk about it beeing easy for P. The metagame right now favours P in lategame, but that has nothing to do with balance. P's are techning and upgrading very fast in the midgame right now, this obv leaves them vulnerable in the midgame and strong in the lategame.
if they played just single forge and more gateway units their 180ish supply army would be alot weaker compared to the terrans 2-2 m&m&m&g ball.
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well better as if they would fix something right now and don't give the terrans in this world time to figure this out. terran has always been so dominant, we'll see whether they really won't be able to keep up with protoss. I tend to think that given enough time and experience Terrans will be able to keep up in the lategame just like protoss learned to fight back terran in the other stages of the game. If not, it's fine but at least blizzard does give the players the opportunity to try it
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The way they're looking at it is still completely wrong. Terran still has no use whatsoever for factory units in a standard TvP. This is not the case in TvT and TvZ, where multiple styles can be utilized and just about any unit can be useful. Why is it that Protoss can find a role for every unit except carriers (lol) against me but one of my core production facilities is completely useless for everything except being a really slow flying scout?
I want my tanks and hellions and thors to be worth a damn.
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On May 04 2012 17:52 forsooth wrote:
The way they're looking at it is still completely wrong. Terran still has no use whatsoever for factory units in a standard TvP. This is not the case in TvT and TvZ, where multiple styles can be utilized and just about any unit can be useful. Why is it that Protoss can find a role for every unit except carriers (lol) against me but one of my core production facilities is completely useless for everything except being a really slow flying scout?
I want my tanks and hellions and thors to be worth a damn.
Yeah you probably see a lot of stargate units in TvP...
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Sounds like they are telling terran to play like zerg, be a bit greedyer then toss and you wont go into the lategame behind. Just get your bases up quicker then them since you are more powerful in the midgame they should not be able to deny your third while you should be able to deny theirs.
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On May 04 2012 17:52 forsooth wrote:
The way they're looking at it is still completely wrong. Terran still has no use whatsoever for factory units in a standard TvP. This is not the case in TvT and TvZ, where multiple styles can be utilized and just about any unit can be useful. Why is it that Protoss can find a role for every unit except carriers (lol) against me but one of my core production facilities is completely useless for everything except being a really slow flying scout?
I want my tanks and hellions and thors to be worth a damn.
well tank/viking/hellion/ghost is great vs toss. the problem is that all needs gas and you need like 4.5 bases to remax it fast enough vs the protoss.
terrans right now die to the ~17-20min 3/3 push with all the aoe and dont even get to 4.5+ bases.
and if they get there they have won the game anyway since they crippled the toss in midgame
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Actually, pro Terrans WERE doing damage (sometimes even so much damage that they just outright killed the toss) in mid game last year. However, seems GSL didn't think this was good and decided to pick bigger maps with narrow chokes which kind of nullified some of this early terran advantage. It is not just Blizzard balancing, maps play a critical role as well. And it is not something which is easy to balance. Small maps with wide chokes is almost impossible to defend vs stim marines. I think we just need to find a good balance between size and width of natural ramp. Right now, it is leaning towards Protoss and it is a lot easier for them to reach mid/late game on even grounds. One of the issues is forcefields, it is a very 1 or 0 spell. Either you don't have enough/miss and you just die or you have enough/land good ones and deflect the attack with very little damage. It is very rare to see TvP early engagements where T can do a little 'bit' of econ damage but the P survives. Which would make going into the late game more 'balanced'. Not sure what can be done since forcefields are so central to P.
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Dear SC2Terran,,
This is how we've felt for some 10 years now.
Regards,
BWProtoss
I don't know if this is an issue that Blizzard NEEDS to address, given that balance is clearly still quite even overall. Frankly I'm more inclined to wait out HotS, and watch the shift in Terran strategy to try and compensate for this difference in army value in the mean time.
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On May 04 2012 17:47 Ghanburighan wrote:
I find it strange that people (Protoss, exclusively as far as I can tell from icons) think that *doing damage in the mid-game* somehow means taking an advantage for the late game. But that's just empty words. What it means is that the terran hits a timing that does enough damage that the game ends, yet the Protoss gg's later. Even if the Protoss that has a heavily damaged economy gets tech, I would not call that a late-game. It's the terran playing safe and not over-extending in favour of crushing the Protoss safely. The equivalent is a Protoss holding off a 6-pool easily and finishing the game 4-5 minutes later, or a Z crushing a Terran 2-base push and finishing the game with broodlords. If the damage was significant, the game is already over.
The problem people have is that terrans are forced into playing strategies which apex early, rather than macroing while harassing (which is the most interesting and fun way to play). And the reward they get is that terrans are always called cheesers or gimmicky players, while it's not their own choice. I'm surprised not more pros are calling Blizz out on this, considering that this design choice makes terran players far less marketable than those of either of the two races.
So you deny that there is a possibility of doing just enough damage to keep things equal and game actually not being decided ? The more SC2 evolves lately those situations seem to be more prevalent. Your assumption that doing enough damage means ending the game is not supported. Doing enough damage means exactly the opposite. It means that the game continues and the player who makes good decisions from now on will gain the advantage.
EDIT:also what do icons have with a race played I have terran icon and I do not play terran (well I play random, protoss, zerg, terran in that order).
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I think a possible way to fix the endgame is to make warpgates not start their cd if the supply is 200/200. Many times I see a terran win a 200/200 vs 200/200 engagement only for the protoss to just instant warp in units.
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I don't know if this is an issue that Blizzard NEEDS to address, given that balance is clearly still quite even overall.
Well, they did address the terrans 'issues' even though balance was quite even except at the very top (GSL with GomTvT).
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EPT
