EPTTvP Lategame comment from Blizzard - Page 11
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MrRicewife
Canada515 Posts
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Fubi
2228 Posts
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imre
France9263 Posts
On May 04 2012 16:44 Fubi wrote: So therefore, Terrans should continue to marine/scv all-in every TvP like MVP did, because according to Blizzard, that is what T has to do to prevent P from going into late game. Sounds good! Well, Mvp played smartly compared to Supernova/Taeja. Just bring the aggression as early as possible or 2b all in. | ||
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Osteriet
Denmark149 Posts
On May 04 2012 16:32 chestnutcc wrote: Your failure to read brackets makes me sad now... actually it doesn't. I said unit, not abilities, it has more offensive capabilities, is faster than the other two, so any way in which the other two are used the ghost should be too. It can cloak like the infestor, and it has two methods at its disposal to nullify enemy casters as opposed to the HT's one. It is an anti caster in general rather than an anti army unit, like the infestor or HT and in PvT it IS an anti army caster. I mentioned the unit, not the abilities. And then YOU start to mention abilities to rebute my argument. This clearly proves that you are not worthy of my time and this will be my last answer to you. The reason you dont see rambo-ghosts is that they are useless against army. A toss would hide his casters behind colossus so you cant hit them. IF you ever hit a good emp on an army all the toss has to do is retreat and wait for shields to regain. If you hit a good storm on an army, its dead. | ||
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- special tactics -
Ukraine39 Posts
On May 04 2012 16:29 canikizu wrote: They should nerf warpgate to have various cooldown. The farther the warp from the gates, the longer the cooldown it should be. It would solve so many problems we have right now. Problem is it makes the entire thing complicated. No other mechanics like this exist in SC, and this will never happen. SC is about straightforward strategy and mechanics. | ||
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GhostOwl
766 Posts
On May 04 2012 13:57 laLAlA[uC] wrote: This has been around since brood war... Terran is strongest late game. They have to turtle with their mech army and the Protoss just has to mass expand and get really huge or break terran early in order to win. Yeah this. In Broodwar, Terrans had the strongest late game. If Protoss let Terrans get 3+ bases with fully upgraded army, Protoss army was fucked in a straight-up late game fight. Unless you pulled off some miracle storms and stasis Now that the roles are reversed, you guys can't handle it? It's not even as unfair as BW was, because Terran had incredibly strong late game in TvP BW, but they also had timing pushes mid-game as well, and cost-efficient harrassment options thru vultures.... | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
Who will be the next FotM OP race in the eyes of the community? Am I the only one who notices this absurdity?! Will the whining ever stop? | ||
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xafies
Greece78 Posts
Imo making zealots stronger (like bw zealots) and nerfing warpgate cooldown would do the trick,but I'm a noob | ||
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
On May 04 2012 16:26 {ToT}ColmA wrote: This thread just leads to protoss saying "l2p terran is fine u just suck" and terrans "bullshit, terrans need buff / toss needs nerf cuz of xyz" it reminds me of when terran was dominating -_- they were dominating for like a year..... I wouldn't even say they are being dominated now by looking at recent results. recently MKP won MLG twice (and 4K in GSTL finals), Lucifron won gathering (top 3 were Terrans), Thorzain won DH (TvT finals), and Alive won IPL4. Makes me wonder what happens if Toss actually starts winning tournaments. Toss have not won a GSL in a long time and now that they probably will, people are making a big deal about it already. | ||
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Gelenn
United States87 Posts
Or give them tech reactor at fusion core so they can bank more production for after a late game engagement to help deal with warpins. Would be cool, but what do I know? I'm no game designer. | ||
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frontline-
Bulgaria281 Posts
On May 04 2012 16:41 Azzur wrote: Right... until I see pros build ravens regularly, I'm going to stick with the "standard is best". All I see from your post is someone with no high level experience telling the pros they are doing it wrong. Right. Sure I'm no pro but my judgement says that a Raven is better than 30 scans. Now since the pros prefer 30 scans over a Raven its clearly the better thing. Likewise everything else,you know? | ||
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mell0w
United States102 Posts
On May 04 2012 16:54 Gelenn wrote: Give terran bio an upgrade at fusion core. +1 marine range? Or give them tech reactor at fusion core so they can bank more production for after a late game engagement to help deal with warpins. Would be cool, but what do I know? I'm no game designer. The fix might as well be something simple like removing energy from Thors or BCs. Bio units are perfectly balanced as they are right now. What's preventing Terran from mech other than Tanks and Hellions against protoss is their ability to feedback, and Terran's inability to expend energy of the aforementioned units before half their health is taken away. In fact, they once took energy away from Thors and they were used quite well in TvP, but reverted the change for a reason I don't recall. If they change Thors from a T2 unit to a T3 unit, requiring the fusion core to make them, and removed their energy, I think things might be fine again. | ||
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Gijian
United States273 Posts
On May 04 2012 16:51 xafies wrote: Hmm blizzard admits that mid game favors terran instead of the late game which favors toss.Well if terran don't suck and abuse his advantage there will be no late game.This was always the problem for me and the main reason i hate playing tvp. Imo making zealots stronger (like bw zealots) and nerfing warpgate cooldown would do the trick,but I'm a noob Actually Blizzard never said mid game favor Terran. They only said terran is stronger mid-game than late of their units. The stronger never made any comparison to protoss mid game strength or weakness. They even stated that pros have means of dealing with terran mid-game play. So no way is protoss even at a disadvantage at any stage. Does Blizzard even give terran any mean of dealing with Protoss late game beside trying to screw them up hard before they get there? Terran don't need any buffs to any bio units (beside reapers) at the moment. What they need is to make some use of their higher tier units (BC, Raven, and Thor). | ||
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Jimmeh
United Kingdom908 Posts
On May 04 2012 16:49 GhostOwl wrote: Yeah this. In Broodwar, Terrans had the strongest late game. If Protoss let Terrans get 3+ bases with fully upgraded army, Protoss army was fucked in a straight-up late game fight. Unless you pulled off some miracle storms and stasis Now that the roles are reversed, you guys can't handle it? It's not even as unfair as BW was, because Terran had incredibly strong late game in TvP BW, but they also had timing pushes mid-game as well, and cost-efficient harrassment options thru vultures.... Protoss had late game options (carriers, arbiters) though. Terran have no viable late game at all in SC2 vs Protoss. | ||
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n0ise
3452 Posts
and yeah, on some 2-3 maps, you can harass a P on 3 bases... what about the rest? gosu great matchup design, ggwp | ||
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
On May 04 2012 16:41 Thrombozyt wrote: I probably fell for a troll, but whatever.. I have a little time... 1) Toss still has the mothership as the great equalizer. That means while there is a phase in the game where toss has the advantage followed by a longer phase where the zerg has the advantage, the absolute endgame is quite even. 2) So you have better upgrade but later starport. That just means that toss will have colossi while you have too little vikings. So you wait till you have vikings, but in that time protoss has templar... etc. etc. and suddenly you are in the late game without having attacked. Fast upgrades work vs some builds (fast templar mainly), but delaying starport tech means you extend the period of time where you have to sit in your base in the dark because you cannot move out without risking the whole game. 3) The strongest cast unit the ghost? Tell me, when have you last seen a ghost kill anything mechanical with his spells? I guess this 'strongest caster unit' is so good, that it isn't used anymore vs Zerg and was never really used vs terran. But yeah.. it's of course because the terran players - who play a race that relies massively on micro - collectively cannot use casters. Yes, you don't see ghosts scattered around like HTs. Imagine a terran drop coming in. The HT feedbacks and then maybe even storms while the warped in zealots (that are warped in before the whole drop unloads) clean up the rest. Now imagine the same setting in a TvT. The ghost EMPs the medivac, then blows up to 5 snipes on the content (imagining full energy) dealing enough dmg to kill a single marauder or two marines. Then the ghost is slaughtered because terran cannot make units magically appear where they are needed. Sometimes you see ghosts making sneak attacks in cloaked form, but that's always with the nuke. That is because the invisibility of the ghost costs energy. Guess what - that's also why ghosts don't scout that much (besides the scan in the lategame being much more available). The ghost is also such a great caster unit, that he cannot kill multiple workers in a short time with his spells. 4) Upgraded colossi are even better. Duh! You even get their upgrades for free while you upgrade your gate ways AND you can get upgrades faster than any other race. 5) Unfortunately it is not possible to sack SCVs earlier, because transitioning into mass OC requires some bank. 30-40 supply freed up requires ~8 OCs. Even a protoss should realize that 4400 minerals aren't that readily available. And NO! MULEs are NOT THAT good. They are 4.5 SCVs. Get that in your head! 6) Blowing resources on knowing where your opponent is really helps if you have a less mobile but more cost efficient army. That is not the case. Sadly. The moment terran is on the defensive in the late game is the moment he is in trouble. Better spend resources on staying offensive instead of preparing for the losing battle to lose longer. Glad to see you're spending your valuable time, I'm sure you'll be back soon. 1. Mothership is becoming steadily less and less effective. Look to the MC Stephano/ Hero Stephano games. The mothership barely did anything in the critical engagements (MC lost his game infact). The longer the game goes on, the less the mothership is useful, since there will be more broods and a larger zerg bank. This is inevitably the case, since the zerg wants to creep with spines anyhow. The main point was the toss advantage ends at 12 minutes. 2. This is why you scout and have scans. Should a toss continue with double forges in the face of a thor banshee push? Fast colossi have little to no gateway support and upgraded bio runs all over it. Don't quote squirtles games, none of those terrans scouted or even if they did they were woefully ill prepared. There is an older MC MVP (MLG Orlando or the next) game where MVP demonstrates killing off a 3 colossi push with pure bio. 3. Its not used in TvZ because there are simpler alternatives, like reactored vikings. In fact it was so good that they had to nerf it to restrict it to its anti caster role, which is now even better than before the nerf. So yes, as a unit (not its aoe ability), amongst the casters, it is the strongest. Snipe outranges feedback and costs less. TvT is nonsense anyway so who cares what happens there. 4. Massive gas banks from terran and no shortage of minerals makes getting air upgrades early v viable. In the late game you should have it well upgraded anyway since bio upgrades should have finished long before. The vikings is much better than the corruptor at this job, with its longer range. Also, earlier upgrades do not really present a window for toss to act in early, and a terran can play greedy accordingly to match their upgrades closely and use their numerical superiority till their own 3/3 is done. 5. You say 8 OC's, out of which 3 should already be on the map, possibly 4. And you add them incrementally. A few months ago zergs scoffed at the idea of a 12 minute hive, and that it was impossible to get upgraded ultras out before 20 minutes, now it is v standard. This is not something that has been experimented enough imo. Also, mules are that good yes, since 8 supply less mules which is about 2 OC's worth of energy are 40 supply worth of scvs by your own account. 6. You really only need 1 or 2 sensor towers to cover far flung expos or your primary bases. Hardly a large investment in the late game. | ||
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goldenwitch
United States338 Posts
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xafies
Greece78 Posts
On May 04 2012 16:57 Gijian wrote: Actually Blizzard never said mid game favor Terran. They only said terran is stronger mid-game than late of their units. The stronger never made any comparison to protoss mid game strength or weakness. They even stated that pros have means of dealing with terran mid-game play. So no way is protoss even at a disadvantage at any stage. Does Blizzard even give terran any mean of dealing with Protoss late game beside trying to screw them up hard before they get there? Terran don't need any buffs to any bio units (beside reapers) at the moment. What they need is to make some use of their higher tier units (BC, Raven, and Thor). If you can read the term advantage was used for both sides | ||
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
On May 04 2012 17:05 goldenwitch wrote: They aren't saying "terran has to win in 15 minutes or less" they are saying that terran can have approximately 2-3k more resources than toss going into the late game, which assuming terran plays well, results in a very strong terran late game. TvP is my strongest match-up in high masters, and I have been trying to explain this to people for the longest time =( Yesssss... coming from a much better source than me, I heavily support this. Could you elaborate on your style? | ||
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Jimmeh
United Kingdom908 Posts
On May 04 2012 16:56 mell0w wrote: The fix might as well be something simple like removing energy from Thors or BCs. Bio units are perfectly balanced as they are right now. What's preventing Terran from mech other than Tanks and Hellions against protoss is their ability to feedback, and Terran's inability to expend energy of the aforementioned units before half their health is taken away. In fact, they once took energy away from Thors and they were used quite well in TvP, but reverted the change for a reason I don't recall. If they change Thors from a T2 unit to a T3 unit, requiring the fusion core to make them, and removed their energy, I think things might be fine again. ThorZain basically got it nerfed after killing MC and a few other Protoss with a really nice Thor timing push. | ||
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