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On May 04 2012 16:08 dronefarm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 15:54 Belha wrote:On May 04 2012 15:12 dronefarm wrote:
Terran has been complaining about lategame protoss for a long, long ass time. Avilo, in fact, has ran a fucking political campaign about how terran is so useless lategame versus protoss since probably around a year ago.
Avilo was complaining about terran balance (for underpowered) since very earlier patches , when T have sick win%. So being honest, as a daily TL reader, i don't care what that guy says now that win% are much more balanced. I didn't say that it's been true the entire time, I'm just pointing out that the sentiment that lategame TvP is in P's favor isn't new at all, in fact, it's been around a long time. There have been metagame shifts/patch interventions that have shifted things (superghosts, shift to mass ghost, immortal buff, archon buff, chargelot buff, etc), and right now, Terran is objectively a really hard spot, people shrugging off this claim because terrans have won a lot in the past maybe a soothing thought, but not a fiar one.
This.
If you constantly read winner interviews from GSL, you will see that even in the time Protoss was underpowered, a lot of Protoss players still saw PvT as their strongest MU (Oz, Squirtle, Parting, Puzzle, Creator,......), and Terran players always see TvP is their hardest MU. In fact, until now, we still only see 2 players who think that they have strong TvP, Polt and MKP, maybe Puma if you stretch it. Other players are either good at TvZ (MMA, Jjaki, Supernova,...), or TvT (Mvp, theStC, Ryung, Bomber, aLive,...)
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That's the most ridiculous way to look at balance. Build orders and strategy should be the one to determine how "asymmetric" a game is. You can't innately have strong early game weak late game to compensate to have balance.
Protosses have things to create their own advantage (make the game imbalance in their favor) in the early game and mid game. 3 gate pressures can be brutal at the right timing and depending on the Terrans choices. We've seen the quick 3 base into 6 gate pressure be so successful for Parting. Yes arguably Terran have more options to get an advantage in the early game, but that doesn't mean Protosses don't have tools to counter and react to that.
When it gets to the late game Terrans have almost nothing to deal with a big deathball army. Even if you win a head on engagement, the Chargelot warp in stops them from being able to leverage on their advantage. And Protoss are just as mobile as Terrans are in the late game with Chargelot harassments and Warp Prism
The right step for Blizzard to balance this is to weaken Terran early-game/strengthen their late game or strengthen Protoss early game/weaken Protoss late game. Perhaps if we got a Terran upgrade for the late game (to give a small suggestion giving Thors a small splash upgrade vs Ground at Fusion Core or buffing Ravens or BCs) now that Protoss's early game should arguably be stronger given the observer buff.
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On May 04 2012 16:20 willll wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2012 15:33 avilo wrote:
Btw, myself and many other Terran's have suggested plenty of things that they could actually do to start balancing out lategame, and I have no idea if blizzard has considered any but:
Lategame TvZ:
-Tweak raven energy to 75 for HSM, remove the energy upgrade. This gives Terran a unit against broodlord/infestor, as well as a lategame splash unit in general. It would be as "imbalanced" as broodlord+infestor+corruptor currently is, aka just like brood war. They need to start taking this stance in their balance design - make things powerful, instead of nerf, nerf, nerf.
Broodlord infestor is powerful as fuck lategame, but giving Terran something equally as powerful to use such as a 75 nrg HSM means not only does Terran get lategame power just like Zerg does in this situation, but both players have incredibly strong things that can actually counteract the other.
In Brood war, irradiate and defilers were both "IMBALANCED" but the game ended up being very dynamic and excellent regardless. People have really lost touch with this because they don't remember just how damn good brood war is. Do people realize that defilers literally made all of their zerg ground units INVINCIBLE against 99% of Terran's units? Do people realize the science vessel actually could have enough energy for two irradiates that would kill every single Zerg unit and do splash to units around those? (ok it didn't kill the ultra, but it took out half it's health!)
The keys to making this game "good" are all there, it's just it seems the design team does not want to take anything from Starcraft 1 in concept/idea/design to get SC2 to where the balance needs to be. It's a bit disappointing, considering 99% of us are playing SC2 because of how awesome BW is.
Lategame PvT:
-Make BCS more viable/change price/something
BCS are Terran's tier3, there is potential there to make that a transition unit for Terrans. It actually can be in the current game, but it requires 45 min+ stalemate situations (believe me, I probably have the most experience of any Terrans in 45 min+ games).
-Nerf the warpgate for the purpose of nerfing protoss's mid-game all-in strength across the board in all three match-ups.
Protoss was never meant to have an expoitable assortment of 2 base all-ins vs Z/T. The warp prism was supposed to provide this function of allowing itself to be a mobile warp generator. To fix a lot of issues for PvT lategame, and Protoss all-ins in general (including retarded 1 base all-ins PvP) simply make it so you can only warp in units AROUND GATEWAYS.
What this ends up doing is it makes Protoss as a race harder, because all-ins in the manner they are done nowadays will only be accessible through a warp prism. It also means that in lategame TvP if Terran has outplayed the Protoss the Terran is actually given an opportunity via time and travel distance to punish Protoss's expansions/bases. Yes, protoss can still build gateways at far away bases, but that becomes an investment/risk and obviously make the warp-in radius not gigantic so a Protoss player now also has to consider base layout as well.
It removes the entire advantage protoss has of simply avoiding travel distance, which is one of the fundamental problems right now with SC2 protoss, and then makes Protoss a less "easy" race to play, which is good.
-Late game chargelots
They require no micro, and are bad for the game in general. Do something that makes the protoss player actually have to watch them/micro them instead of simply warp in and go afk.
-Mech vs Protoss - FIX IT!
Terran mech is brood war, just because it's brood war does not mean it's bad *I'm looking at Dustin Browder right now*. In beta, you could go full ghost mech against protoss, and play long macro games even on ridiculously large maps, because siege tanks always were cost effective with their brood war damage, meaning if you were already pre-sieged, and protoss engaged like a caveman, you would always, always get your money's worth.
But Browder/Kim seem to have something against anything that is like "brood war" and they nerfed the siege tank, buffed the chargelot, and that was the nail in the coffin for mech tvp. A lot of people do not even remember this change if they did not play the beta, but this is why mech has become a "relic of the past" because of pre-emptive changes to make the game less like broodwar, and encourage Terrans to use the 1A marauder instead.
Mech can be made viable TvP, blizzard can do it, let's hope they will instead of side skirting around the issue. They can cheapen armory prices/mech/sky upgrade prices, remove thor energy, things of this nature, along with looking at the zealot armor type and making it so tanks can actually kill chargelots in siege mode lategame...
There's a lot that can be done to make Terran viable in lategame, that blizzard simply is not doing right now, whether out of fear that the game will be like brood war with "lots of siege tanks" or for whatever other reasons or because of the fear that Terran will be "imba" like it was ORIGINALLY in beta...but they really need to realize there is a balance problem right now and simply ignoring it and saying "Protoss has the advantage when they defend all your harass" is not the way to go about it.
No Terran, no pro terran, not even any Terran in lower leagues is going to be happy that blizzard has no acknowledged they are at a disadvantage when the game goes long. IT's just wrong. If we agree with Blizz assertions that TvP favors T in the early game and P if game continues with little damage, then any downgrade of lategame P has to be met with an upgrade to early game P or a downgrade to early game T. What do you suggest?
What, exactly, is it that is so weak about Protoss earlygame compared to terran? I mean... Gateway composition with competent forcefields can hold most bio attacks pre-medivacs/P aoe. Medivac+upgrade timings are pretty strong, but generally limited in transitions if you don't do enough damage, in the same vein of 6gate pressure to a T expo before stim, using forcefields to stop bunker repair.
Sure, there's a window where t2.5-3 medivacs and upgrades gives T a pretty big advantage against pure gateway, but in turn there are also windows for gateway timings to do big damage to pure bio armies early as well...
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This thread just leads to protoss saying "l2p terran is fine u just suck" and terrans "bullshit, terrans need buff / toss needs nerf cuz of xyz"
it reminds me of when terran was dominating -_-
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The asimmetrical balance offers other objectives in game, plus"micro & macro better than op". The identical design that terrans complain, is the rule in mu like TvZ & PvZ ..i really dont understand why "forced to harass a Zerg" and "forced harass to harass a Protoss" its so different. I dont even know, what terrans can complain about "deathballs protoss" when broodlords\inf post ghost-nerf its almost unbeatable at all levels, when protoss "deathball" sometimes die in a ridiculous way.
The average ladder-terran, try a drop, and when deflected, complain about "no harass options" (lol?) putting zero effort in what he does. They simply believe blindly theyre doing the most difficult thing on earth shiftting a drop on the map. I dont even want to know what they can say when finally someone with some credentials finally tell them "its more hard to defend a harass\multipronged then do it" because it is, no matters if its called medivack\prism\muta.
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On May 04 2012 16:25 pdd wrote:
That's the most ridiculous way to look at balance. Build orders and strategy should be the one to determine how "asymmetric" a game is. You can't innately have strong early game weak late game to compensate to have balance.
Protosses have things to create their own advantage (make the game imbalance in their favor) in the early game and mid game. 3 gate pressures can be brutal at the right timing and depending on the Terrans choices. We've seen the quick 3 base into 6 gate pressure be so successful for Parting. Yes arguably Terran have more options to get an advantage in the early game, but that doesn't mean Protosses don't have tools to counter and react to that.
When it gets to the late game Terrans have almost nothing to deal with a big deathball army. Even if you win a head on engagement, the Chargelot warp in stops them from being able to leverage on their advantage.
The right step for Blizzard to balance this is to weaken Terran early-game/strengthen their late game or strengthen Protoss early game/weaken Protoss late game. Perhaps if we got a Terran upgrade for the late game (to give a small suggestion giving Thors a small splash upgrade vs Ground at Fusion Core or buffing Ravens or BCs) now that Protoss's early game should arguably be stronger given the observer buff.
There are two things that need to be done:
1. Give P more reliable ways to handle/outmicro Terran 1 bases.
2. Give T more smooth way to pressure and build up unit count on a large map. Right now T has 3rax+reactor port vs 6-8 gates. On a large map, this is not the appropriate toolset to be able to prevent a P from outeconing, outupgrading, and outproducing you. Maybe the solution is a firebat out of the factory or something.
3. On that note, reduce the necessity and impact of techs like colossus. Make it so that unit count + econ is king. This will also remove the awkward situation where P sits on 2 base to 14m
4. Hopefully whatever solved 2, also helps vs chargelots.
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They should nerf warpgate to have various cooldown. The farther the warp from the gates, the longer the cooldown it should be. It would solve so many problems we have right now.
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I tried to have an intelligent discussion on this topic, but the majority of the people in this thread just came in with their preconceived notions on balance and didn't want to hear the others side or are throwing out one liners and trolling.
90 percent of this thread can be summarized by:
Protoss Players: We're winning for once, Terran has been imba all along and all you have to do is attack in the midgame, shut your fucking face
Terran Players: We have to all in or we lose, and it protoss just has to defend to win. Shut your fucking face.
It saddens me that this is how our community looks at the game. Gl to Terrans, hope things end up working out :/
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On May 04 2012 16:29 canikizu wrote:
They should nerf warpgate to have various cooldown. The farther the warp from the gates, the longer the cooldown it should be. It would solve so many problems we have right now.
Agree the cooldown close to your base should be about 10 minutes so you can prepare properly.
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On May 04 2012 16:30 dronefarm wrote:
I tried to have an intelligent discussion on this topic, but the majority of the people in this thread just came in with their preconceived notions on balance and didn't want to hear the others side or are throwing out one liners and trolling.
90 percent of this thread can be summarized by:
Protoss Players: We're winning for once, Terran has been imba all along and all you have to do is attack in the midgame, shut your fucking face
Terran Players: We have to all in or we lose, and it protoss just has to defend to win. Shut your fucking face.
It saddens me that this is how our community looks at the game. Gl to Terrans, hope things end up working out :/
Worked for P and Z before, our turn now 
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On May 04 2012 16:13 Osteriet wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 16:07 chestnutcc wrote:
Blizzard doing the right thing here. Strategic choices make imbalance not.
1. This exact same situation is present in PvZ, toss has several aggressive options in the mid game, but has a hellish time against infestor brood lord without stellar unit control. This is not to mention that the mid game in PvZ actually ends at 12 minutes when the zerg maxes, which is a tiny window from 8 minutes onwards. PvZ is hardly imba though, and is v reflective of either player's skill level.
2. Terrans need to tech faster like toss has to in the early to mid games. Whereas toss teching does not actually net them a stronger mid game, terran tech magnifies their mid game strength tremendously. Tech here mostly means fast upgrades and multiple OC's, maybe with slightly delayed medvacs. The sort of build that MKP premiered with super fast double e bays so that the terran is at 3/3 at 15 minutes is an absolute nightmare for toss. This kind of build takes away from the strength of the 10:30 medvac timing, which is mainly to discourage greedy thirds rather than kill the toss, but no one should be relying to win the game with that.
3. Terrans are the least capable caster users of the three races. They also have the strongest caster unit (unit, not abilities per se since emp is no where as good as fungal in TvZ, but is devastating in PvT). Players like parting or stephano use their casters brilliantly, devising their entire game styles around these units, but there are hardly any terrans who do the same. Rarely do you see ghosts being scattered about in the same way hts are or constantly making sneak attacks and scouting compositions the way infestors do. Thorzain is pretty much the only one to heavily incorporate them into his games.
4. Upgraded vikings are really good.
5. Terran armies have to be larger than their toss counter part by 30-40 supply, perhaps much earlier than is standard now
6. Sensor towers and scans mean that the terran army should never really be caught out of position on defenders turf.
Calling ghosts stronger than HT or infestor.. Man I dont even know where to begin. Keep thinking what you do, and then actually TRY terran.. come back to me in 4-5 months, well grab a beer and look at this post with equal laughter and sad.
Your failure to read brackets makes me sad now... actually it doesn't. I said unit, not abilities, it has more offensive capabilities, is faster than the other two, so any way in which the other two are used the ghost should be too. It can cloak like the infestor, and it has two methods at its disposal to nullify enemy casters as opposed to the HT's one. It is an anti caster in general rather than an anti army unit, like the infestor or HT and in PvT it IS an anti army caster.
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Blizzard moron wrote:
Terran OP early/mid +
Protoss OP late +
Asymmetric design principle +
close win/loss ratio
= everything is in order!
I have 2 accounts (one for P, one for T. lately played mostly P) so there is no bias here. The matchup is really shitty. At my level I would say protoss late is stronger than T early/mid, but in no way fun to play either way. Endless kiting of chargelots is shit, A-moving and storming as P is boring. TvZ and PvZ are much more fun.
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On May 04 2012 16:31 OutOfMyMind_pro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 16:29 canikizu wrote:
They should nerf warpgate to have various cooldown. The farther the warp from the gates, the longer the cooldown it should be. It would solve so many problems we have right now.
Agree the cooldown close to your base should be about 10 minutes so you can prepare properly.
You realize that in lore, the warp in is from the protoss home worlds? I don't think a few meters here and there is going to affect a system thats sending units from light years away.
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United States102 Posts
As a Terran player myself, I'm inclined to agree with the majority that late game TvP isn't balanced, but not because Protoss late game is imbalanced, but because Terran late game is underwhelming. By that very understandable reasoning, Terran simply need a small tweak or two in the late of things to ever slightly even things out. What those things are I won't even begin to elaborate on because everyone fancies themselves a balance expert and will hold a puppy at gun point trying to justify why they're right and you're wrong.
"Kill them before late game" doesn't quite equate to strategy Mr. Blizzard Balance Team. It merely adds a ticking clock you're forced to work within, which enables a limiting factor on things that COULD be done in favor of things that MUST be done.
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And even as a spectator's point of view. Does someone really enjoy watching PvT late game?
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On May 04 2012 16:37 Jarree wrote:
And even as a spectator's point of view. Does someone really enjoy watching PvT late game?
it allows me to prepare breakfast during the GSL while I try to guess the next map (Antiga ok ez...)
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Also this nonsense of chargelots requiring no micro. They are tanks, meant to absorb damage rather than deal them. They don't require micro, they require a judgment call as to how many you need and when to make them. Only the buffer of chargelots allows the rest of the toss army to do anything. Yes, they butcher small quantities of unmicro'd bio, and they should for their cost.
Parting's sole piece of advice to tosses is to baby sit their chargelots, which shows their importance to the way that play style works out, the better you manage your tanks, the better your chances. If you're dying to mass chargelots, you don't have enough stuff anyway since upgraded bio shred them.
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On May 04 2012 16:30 dronefarm wrote:
I tried to have an intelligent discussion on this topic, but the majority of the people in this thread just came in with their preconceived notions on balance and didn't want to hear the others side or are throwing out one liners and trolling.
90 percent of this thread can be summarized by:
Protoss Players: We're winning for once, Terran has been imba all along and all you have to do is attack in the midgame, shut your fucking face
Terran Players: We have to all in or we lose, and it protoss just has to defend to win. Shut your fucking face.
It saddens me that this is how our community looks at the game. Gl to Terrans, hope things end up working out :/
True. As I see it the problem is that the differences in TvP is so huge that it feels like we are not playing the same game. I have hardly ever been outplayed by a protoss. I lost a lot to them, mostly A-move chargelots, Colossus and point/click HT. Most of them drag their chargelots through their own storms which is a great testament to their micro skill. 3 cannons at each expo makes sure he can defend against drop play. He got the money because he know he just has to turtle to 200 anyway. When i catch him out of position, he hits W and gets units out to stop it.
When the underlying premises of good macro, epic unit micro, decisionmaking, positioning, and creative offence isn't shared across the players, they are not held together by them. That is, if we felt like we were playing the same game, even though we play different races, we would still honor achievements done by players regardless of race. Terran players do not feel like they are playing the same game because they are held to higher standards in the premises, and thus despise protoss, giving a bad community.
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On May 04 2012 16:11 OutOfMyMind_pro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 16:02 Azzur wrote:On May 04 2012 15:58 OutOfMyMind_pro wrote:
I guess bad players will whine while others make things happen as always.
There is nothing really wrong with the current state of PvT. In fact its quiet funny how Terrans keep using mainly tier 1 units and still have an even winning record against Protoss players who use the full potential of their race.
Lets be real for a second - most of the Terrans are so bad that they would rather scan 50 times than make a raven. The vocal majority of the whining people are such players. There are still people who try to convince us that Terran is weak. The most dominant race since the launch of the game. The only race in the game who can play two completely different styles and even a mixed one between the two. The race with the best static defence in the game. That race ladies and gents is "weak".
Interesting that this statement is coming from a protoss player... I like how you ignore alot of evidence and even the conclusions drawn by (the conservative) Blizzard. People like you should learn first how to make a Raven and than complain. Later you can start learning on how to use the potential of the race your playing and stop expecting to beat Protoss tier 3 in late game with your Terran tier 1 units. Also you can learn to micro.
Right... until I see pros build ravens regularly, I'm going to stick with the "standard is best". All I see from your post is someone with no high level experience telling the pros they are doing it wrong.
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On May 04 2012 16:07 chestnutcc wrote:
Blizzard doing the right thing here. Strategic choices make imbalance not.
1. This exact same situation is present in PvZ, toss has several aggressive options in the mid game, but has a hellish time against infestor brood lord without stellar unit control. This is not to mention that the mid game in PvZ actually ends at 12 minutes when the zerg maxes, which is a tiny window from 8 minutes onwards. PvZ is hardly imba though, and is v reflective of either player's skill level.
2. Terrans need to tech faster like toss has to in the early to mid games. Whereas toss teching does not actually net them a stronger mid game, terran tech magnifies their mid game strength tremendously. Tech here mostly means fast upgrades and multiple OC's, maybe with slightly delayed medvacs. The sort of build that MKP premiered with super fast double e bays so that the terran is at 3/3 at 15 minutes is an absolute nightmare for toss. This kind of build takes away from the strength of the 10:30 medvac timing, which is mainly to discourage greedy thirds rather than kill the toss, but no one should be relying to win the game with that.
3. Terrans are the least capable caster users of the three races. They also have the strongest caster unit (unit, not abilities per se since emp is no where as good as fungal in TvZ, but is devastating in PvT). Players like parting or stephano use their casters brilliantly, devising their entire game styles around these units, but there are hardly any terrans who do the same. Rarely do you see ghosts being scattered about in the same way hts are or constantly making sneak attacks and scouting compositions the way infestors do. Thorzain is pretty much the only one to heavily incorporate them into his games.
4. Upgraded vikings are really good.
5. Terran armies have to be larger than their toss counter part by 30-40 supply, perhaps much earlier than is standard now
6. Sensor towers and scans mean that the terran army should never really be caught out of position on defenders turf.
I probably fell for a troll, but whatever.. I have a little time...
1) Toss still has the mothership as the great equalizer. That means while there is a phase in the game where toss has the advantage followed by a longer phase where the zerg has the advantage, the absolute endgame is quite even.
2) So you have better upgrade but later starport. That just means that toss will have colossi while you have too little vikings. So you wait till you have vikings, but in that time protoss has templar... etc. etc. and suddenly you are in the late game without having attacked. Fast upgrades work vs some builds (fast templar mainly), but delaying starport tech means you extend the period of time where you have to sit in your base in the dark because you cannot move out without risking the whole game.
3) The strongest cast unit the ghost? Tell me, when have you last seen a ghost kill anything mechanical with his spells? I guess this 'strongest caster unit' is so good, that it isn't used anymore vs Zerg and was never really used vs terran. But yeah.. it's of course because the terran players - who play a race that relies massively on micro - collectively cannot use casters.
Yes, you don't see ghosts scattered around like HTs. Imagine a terran drop coming in. The HT feedbacks and then maybe even storms while the warped in zealots (that are warped in before the whole drop unloads) clean up the rest. Now imagine the same setting in a TvT. The ghost EMPs the medivac, then blows up to 5 snipes on the content (imagining full energy) dealing enough dmg to kill a single marauder or two marines. Then the ghost is slaughtered because terran cannot make units magically appear where they are needed.
Sometimes you see ghosts making sneak attacks in cloaked form, but that's always with the nuke. That is because the invisibility of the ghost costs energy. Guess what - that's also why ghosts don't scout that much (besides the scan in the lategame being much more available). The ghost is also such a great caster unit, that he cannot kill multiple workers in a short time with his spells.
4) Upgraded colossi are even better. Duh! You even get their upgrades for free while you upgrade your gate ways AND you can get upgrades faster than any other race.
5) Unfortunately it is not possible to sack SCVs earlier, because transitioning into mass OC requires some bank. 30-40 supply freed up requires ~8 OCs. Even a protoss should realize that 4400 minerals aren't that readily available. And NO! MULEs are NOT THAT good. They are 4.5 SCVs. Get that in your head!
6) Blowing resources on knowing where your opponent is really helps if you have a less mobile but more cost efficient army. That is not the case. Sadly. The moment terran is on the defensive in the late game is the moment he is in trouble. Better spend resources on staying offensive instead of preparing for the losing battle to lose longer.
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EPT
