EPTTvP Lategame comment from Blizzard - Page 9
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Thylacine
Sweden882 Posts
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NoobCrunch
79 Posts
On May 04 2012 15:54 Sif_ wrote: i love how blizzard keeps mentioning ladder % when their system is built to deliver us a 50% winrate. and i also feel like the matchup is hardest at low-mid masters, where players cant multitask or micro exceptionally well and that favors the protoss heavily in engagements Oh no it's "adjusted for player skill" (whatever that means). | ||
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
1. This exact same situation is present in PvZ, toss has several aggressive options in the mid game, but has a hellish time against infestor brood lord without stellar unit control. This is not to mention that the mid game in PvZ actually ends at 12 minutes when the zerg maxes, which is a tiny window from 8 minutes onwards. PvZ is hardly imba though, and is v reflective of either player's skill level. 2. Terrans need to tech faster like toss has to in the early to mid games. Whereas toss teching does not actually net them a stronger mid game, terran tech magnifies their mid game strength tremendously. Tech here mostly means fast upgrades and multiple OC's, maybe with slightly delayed medvacs. The sort of build that MKP premiered with super fast double e bays so that the terran is at 3/3 at 15 minutes is an absolute nightmare for toss. This kind of build takes away from the strength of the 10:30 medvac timing, which is mainly to discourage greedy thirds rather than kill the toss, but no one should be relying to win the game with that. 3. Terrans are the least capable caster users of the three races. They also have the strongest caster unit (unit, not abilities per se since emp is no where as good as fungal in TvZ, but is devastating in PvT). Players like parting or stephano use their casters brilliantly, devising their entire game styles around these units, but there are hardly any terrans who do the same. Rarely do you see ghosts being scattered about in the same way hts are or constantly making sneak attacks and scouting compositions the way infestors do. Thorzain is pretty much the only one to heavily incorporate them into his games. 4. Upgraded vikings are really good. 5. Terran armies have to be larger than their toss counter part by 30-40 supply, perhaps much earlier than is standard now 6. Sensor towers and scans mean that the terran army should never really be caught out of position on defenders turf. | ||
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dronefarm
United States260 Posts
On May 04 2012 15:54 Belha wrote: Avilo was complaining about terran balance (for underpowered) since very earlier patches , when T have sick win%. So being honest, as a daily TL reader, i don't care what that guy says now that win% are much more balanced. I didn't say that it's been true the entire time, I'm just pointing out that the sentiment that lategame TvP is in P's favor isn't new at all, in fact, it's been around a long time. There have been metagame shifts/patch interventions that have shifted things (superghosts, shift to mass ghost, immortal buff, archon buff, chargelot buff, etc), and right now, Terran is objectively a really hard spot, people shrugging off this claim because terrans have won a lot in the past maybe a soothing thought, but not a fiar one. | ||
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Osteriet
Denmark149 Posts
On May 04 2012 15:40 dragonchaser wrote: I think what Blizzard is saying is quite simple people: THEY WANT TO SEE THE PLAY EVOLVE A BIT BEFORE THEY START MAKING BALANCE CHANGES!!! Making profound and deep changes to the very fundamental structure of the game are not something to be taken lightly. What is it with this new culture of people wanting everything now, NOW, NOW GODDAMIT! Shit, NOW isn't even soon enough anymore people want it even sooner. Blizzard is doing the right thing here people. They are keeping their eye on the situation. I know people are all butt hurt because there aren't a million Terrans in this latest GSL but the non-sense being derived because of it seriously needs to be curtailed. Honestly, in spite of how well Toss is doing I fear for what the future holds for us Toss players. Just as has happened with us and Terran, the game WILL evolve and soon we'll hear the all too familiar cries of TERRAN IMBA!!! WHaaaa!!! Is it really that hard to notice the cyclical nature of the game here people? If Blizzard made a change every time the fan-base had one of their little shitfits god only knows how absurd things would be. Thank god Blizzard isn't that stupid. Why can't the fans exude a little most patience and understanding in the nature of a game as complex as Starcraft? Changes that are too hastily made negatively impact the game in the WORST way because they don't allow the players the opportunity to do perhaps the most important aspect of the game: the continuously evolve strategies and tactics according to what the current meta game dictates. I'm not saying there are no scenarios where things need to be nerfed or buffed but Blizzard is WISELY choosing very, very carefully when to make these changes because, like I said, they WANT TO SEE THE GAME EVOLVE and making those changes doesn't give the best players their chance to evolve. I also want to witness the evolution of the game. That is part of what separates Starcraft from every other game! Its continuous evolution! Only a game with the potential of SC could be enjoyed for over a decade, I don't care what country it is. Its the games ability to evolve that makes it so fucking amazing. While I'm loving this era of Protoss dominance, it absolutely WILL NOT LAST. It cannot! As Protoss players we need to already start getting ready for the time when Terrans start having all the answers and win everything in sight again. Them or the bugs, we need to stay vigilant here people! Just because what we're currently doing is working, it won't always be so and if it is, then Blizzard is fully within their rights to make the appropriate fundamental changes. Until then, lets sit back and let things evolve a bit more shall we? haha, yeah both thors and ghosts were nerfed into useless based on few games and in a rush. Blizzard is practising exactly the opposite of what you want. Troll harder. | ||
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frontline-
Bulgaria281 Posts
On May 04 2012 16:02 Azzur wrote: Interesting that this statement is coming from a protoss player... I like how you ignore alot of evidence and even the conclusions drawn by (the conservative) Blizzard. People like you should learn first how to make a Raven and than complain. Later you can start learning on how to use the potential of the race your playing and stop expecting to beat Protoss tier 3 in late game with your Terran tier 1 units. Also you can learn to micro. | ||
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Naphal
Germany2099 Posts
i still think they should raise the skill ceiling of the protoss race so we won't have a-move-laddertoss and people who argue for balance at the highest level defend the same things... | ||
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Osteriet
Denmark149 Posts
On May 04 2012 16:07 chestnutcc wrote: Blizzard doing the right thing here. Strategic choices make imbalance not. 1. This exact same situation is present in PvZ, toss has several aggressive options in the mid game, but has a hellish time against infestor brood lord without stellar unit control. This is not to mention that the mid game in PvZ actually ends at 12 minutes when the zerg maxes, which is a tiny window from 8 minutes onwards. PvZ is hardly imba though, and is v reflective of either player's skill level. 2. Terrans need to tech faster like toss has to in the early to mid games. Whereas toss teching does not actually net them a stronger mid game, terran tech magnifies their mid game strength tremendously. Tech here mostly means fast upgrades and multiple OC's, maybe with slightly delayed medvacs. The sort of build that MKP premiered with super fast double e bays so that the terran is at 3/3 at 15 minutes is an absolute nightmare for toss. This kind of build takes away from the strength of the 10:30 medvac timing, which is mainly to discourage greedy thirds rather than kill the toss, but no one should be relying to win the game with that. 3. Terrans are the least capable caster users of the three races. They also have the strongest caster unit (unit, not abilities per se since emp is no where as good as fungal in TvZ, but is devastating in PvT). Players like parting or stephano use their casters brilliantly, devising their entire game styles around these units, but there are hardly any terrans who do the same. Rarely do you see ghosts being scattered about in the same way hts are or constantly making sneak attacks and scouting compositions the way infestors do. Thorzain is pretty much the only one to heavily incorporate them into his games. 4. Upgraded vikings are really good. 5. Terran armies have to be larger than their toss counter part by 30-40 supply, perhaps much earlier than is standard now 6. Sensor towers and scans mean that the terran army should never really be caught out of position on defenders turf. Calling ghosts stronger than HT or infestor.. Man I dont even know where to begin. Keep thinking what you do, and then actually TRY terran.. come back to me in 4-5 months, well grab a beer and look at this post with equal laughter and sad. | ||
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4of8
Germany256 Posts
On May 04 2012 15:38 DaemonX wrote: I couldn't get past the first page without responding to all the stupidity and fail being posted. I can't believe the number of teamliquid posters who just cannot comprehend what they are reading - including the OP. Blizzard didn't say that Terran can't win lategame. They didn't say this. Nor did their statement even entail that Terran had to all-in before 3-base. They said that if you do NO damage and are completely passive, you will reach a point where you can't beat their army as terran. This is not a fucking revelation. It's self evident to anyone above Gold league. This is the same as TvZ! The eco ramp of the other races faster than than terran...we have always known this. Chrono boost and queen injects make workers faster than CCs, No duh. This is not news. This is not even noteworthy. What Blizzard's statement means is simply "if you know how to play terran you can win as terran". As a terran I think that's pretty fair enough. Playing terran well doesn't mean bubbling your opponent out for 18 minutes then attacking with tier 3. This works for protoss. I would fucking HATE if it worked for terran - then we would be back to season 1-2 fultech deathball all-ins after 15 minutes of NOTHING every BLOODY game, except now 4 base instead of 2. Fuck that, I say. I'm happy to call Blizzard out when they are retarded, but this is not one of those times. Exactly my thoughts. There is no mention of you have to all-in in the first 15 Minutes as a T or you lose. It is more like if you are ahead in the midgame get more ahead by using this advantage. | ||
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
On May 04 2012 14:15 Penecks wrote: While I'll agree that Terran is quite strong in the mid game once medivacs and bio upgrades are out, I'm not sure why this is generally extended to the early game as well: a number of 1base Protoss allins are still very viable even at the pro level, including (proxy) stargates, and blink builds. I mean when's the last time a 3rax has killed anyone. I guess 111 can be argued to be an "early game" attack, but considering counters to it generally involve a Toss FE, that's pretty debatable. What else? Fast cloaked banshee I guess? Which is quite predictable at this point if you are actually doing it. So if we assume the early game (0-7mins~?) is even, the midgame (8-14ish~) is T dominated, and anything after is P dominated, you basically have a several minute window where you better kill an assload of workers, snipe a nexus, some tech, or do some major cost effective trading, or enter the P dominated endgame which doesn't have an upper limit: you are simply at a further disadvantage until you lose. Of course, if either you or the protoss do nothing (as I imagine happens pretty often in lower leagues) he immediately gains an advantage. Yep. But I guess every protoss interprets the terrans sitting in their natural with 3+ bunkers as a position of terran strenght - probably because they cannot break them in this early phase of the game. | ||
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GTPGlitch
5061 Posts
On May 04 2012 15:40 dragonchaser wrote: I think what Blizzard is saying is quite simple people: THEY WANT TO SEE THE PLAY EVOLVE A BIT BEFORE THEY START MAKING BALANCE CHANGES!!! Making profound and deep changes to the very fundamental structure of the game are not something to be taken lightly. What is it with this new culture of people wanting everything now, NOW, NOW GODDAMIT! Shit, NOW isn't even soon enough anymore people want it even sooner. Blizzard is doing the right thing here people. They are keeping their eye on the situation. I know people are all butt hurt because there aren't a million Terrans in this latest GSL but the non-sense being derived because of it seriously needs to be curtailed. Honestly, in spite of how well Toss is doing I fear for what the future holds for us Toss players. Just as has happened with us and Terran, the game WILL evolve and soon we'll hear the all too familiar cries of TERRAN IMBA!!! WHaaaa!!! Until then, lets sit back and let things evolve a bit more shall we? Yes, i'm sure the fact that TvP has remained exactly the same and has had no new revolutionary builds/styles that aren't 1-1-1 variations come from korea forever is fine, and we just need to wait a bit more for people to start using tanks that do awful damage against chargelots in the lategame... And, of course, the fact that almost all T3 is directly countered by tech that toss will already have (templars) helps as well-innovate more ways for templars to do damage to the terran army! I like how blizzard let play evolve a bit before nerfing thors too, Thorzain's one series sure was a lot of time. As a terran player, it's very frustrating to see Zerg and Toss get all these lovely little fixes while we just kind of sit here. Blizzard gets right on giving toss 10 second quicker observer build time to help against.... something.... and of course give queens more potential to shut down hellion play, but the deficient Terran lategame is practically ignored because it might take more effort than changing one number and hoping it works. Blizzard is quick to nerf terran (of which some were deserved, some which seemed as though they were jumping the gun, and some of which were just silly) and quick to help out P/Z whenever they have difficulty vs Terran. Mothership play, Infestor/hive play, Muta/ling play, super fast double forge play, and double expand into gateway pressure have all become more popular in recent times, and it's awesome to see this innovation from P/Z because its exciting to see the different styles of play. But TvP is very stale because the sheer gas requirements for T3 will either cut into ghost count and allow HT to do their magic on the multitude of energy-using units that Terran has, or getting a decent number of ghosts+T3 will take up enough food that you don't have a large enough army to supplement the units. People always argue that Terran should try using stuff like Ravens and Banshees and Battlecruisers, but the counters are already on the field for P or VERY easy to access due to CB and front-loaded production. | ||
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Lunareste
United States3596 Posts
On May 04 2012 15:13 xrapture wrote: Or when Parting gets a fast 3rd and drops 8 gateways and rolls over anything Terran has who has the mid game advantage then? This is what I'm trying to figure out, too. It seems odd to me that the meta game has shifted so much in the last two months that Protoss go from slightly underrepresented to half of the ro16. I love to watch HerO and Squirtle as much as the next person, but given their past records as perennial Code A-Code B players I think that it's valid to question how they are now in the ro4 of Code S. It's not like they've always been mainstay top tier players of the scene, and prior to this season I would have definitely said that Taeja and especially Supernova were the better players. Regardless of their past results, and mistakes made, their ro8 matches were not even close and the Protoss players absolutely dominated both of their opponents, who have historically been better players, 3-0. Regarding what Blizzard says...it's like they believe that the Protoss has no options and instead are only capable of building up for a lategame deathball army. 6-8 gate, 2 base pressure and all ins are very viable and hard to stop and they're not particularly easy to scout without a money scan by the Terran. Even then I think given the restrictions of how slowly a midgame Terran builds army comparitively, it's hard to stop even when scouted unless you've specifically prepared for it at the cost of some tech. And the thing is that this scenario is just one of the many options a mid game Protoss has. | ||
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Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
On May 04 2012 16:11 OutOfMyMind_pro wrote: People like you should learn first how to make a Raven and than complain. Later you can start learning on how to use the potential of the race your playing and stop expecting to beat Protoss tier 3 in late game with your Terran tier 1 units. Also you can learn to micro. except that raven, thors, bc's and ghost - all late game T units - are all easily countered by a freshly warped HT. And good luck trying to micro slow units like thors and bc's versus blink stalkers and chargelots. | ||
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Sekijitsu
United States47 Posts
CYCLICAL NATURE OF THE GAME PEOPLE. | ||
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willll
United States73 Posts
On May 04 2012 15:33 avilo wrote: Btw, myself and many other Terran's have suggested plenty of things that they could actually do to start balancing out lategame, and I have no idea if blizzard has considered any but: Lategame TvZ: -Tweak raven energy to 75 for HSM, remove the energy upgrade. This gives Terran a unit against broodlord/infestor, as well as a lategame splash unit in general. It would be as "imbalanced" as broodlord+infestor+corruptor currently is, aka just like brood war. They need to start taking this stance in their balance design - make things powerful, instead of nerf, nerf, nerf. Broodlord infestor is powerful as fuck lategame, but giving Terran something equally as powerful to use such as a 75 nrg HSM means not only does Terran get lategame power just like Zerg does in this situation, but both players have incredibly strong things that can actually counteract the other. In Brood war, irradiate and defilers were both "IMBALANCED" but the game ended up being very dynamic and excellent regardless. People have really lost touch with this because they don't remember just how damn good brood war is. Do people realize that defilers literally made all of their zerg ground units INVINCIBLE against 99% of Terran's units? Do people realize the science vessel actually could have enough energy for two irradiates that would kill every single Zerg unit and do splash to units around those? (ok it didn't kill the ultra, but it took out half it's health!) The keys to making this game "good" are all there, it's just it seems the design team does not want to take anything from Starcraft 1 in concept/idea/design to get SC2 to where the balance needs to be. It's a bit disappointing, considering 99% of us are playing SC2 because of how awesome BW is. Lategame PvT: -Make BCS more viable/change price/something BCS are Terran's tier3, there is potential there to make that a transition unit for Terrans. It actually can be in the current game, but it requires 45 min+ stalemate situations (believe me, I probably have the most experience of any Terrans in 45 min+ games). -Nerf the warpgate for the purpose of nerfing protoss's mid-game all-in strength across the board in all three match-ups. Protoss was never meant to have an expoitable assortment of 2 base all-ins vs Z/T. The warp prism was supposed to provide this function of allowing itself to be a mobile warp generator. To fix a lot of issues for PvT lategame, and Protoss all-ins in general (including retarded 1 base all-ins PvP) simply make it so you can only warp in units AROUND GATEWAYS. What this ends up doing is it makes Protoss as a race harder, because all-ins in the manner they are done nowadays will only be accessible through a warp prism. It also means that in lategame TvP if Terran has outplayed the Protoss the Terran is actually given an opportunity via time and travel distance to punish Protoss's expansions/bases. Yes, protoss can still build gateways at far away bases, but that becomes an investment/risk and obviously make the warp-in radius not gigantic so a Protoss player now also has to consider base layout as well. It removes the entire advantage protoss has of simply avoiding travel distance, which is one of the fundamental problems right now with SC2 protoss, and then makes Protoss a less "easy" race to play, which is good. -Late game chargelots They require no micro, and are bad for the game in general. Do something that makes the protoss player actually have to watch them/micro them instead of simply warp in and go afk. -Mech vs Protoss - FIX IT! Terran mech is brood war, just because it's brood war does not mean it's bad *I'm looking at Dustin Browder right now*. In beta, you could go full ghost mech against protoss, and play long macro games even on ridiculously large maps, because siege tanks always were cost effective with their brood war damage, meaning if you were already pre-sieged, and protoss engaged like a caveman, you would always, always get your money's worth. But Browder/Kim seem to have something against anything that is like "brood war" and they nerfed the siege tank, buffed the chargelot, and that was the nail in the coffin for mech tvp. A lot of people do not even remember this change if they did not play the beta, but this is why mech has become a "relic of the past" because of pre-emptive changes to make the game less like broodwar, and encourage Terrans to use the 1A marauder instead. Mech can be made viable TvP, blizzard can do it, let's hope they will instead of side skirting around the issue. They can cheapen armory prices/mech/sky upgrade prices, remove thor energy, things of this nature, along with looking at the zealot armor type and making it so tanks can actually kill chargelots in siege mode lategame... There's a lot that can be done to make Terran viable in lategame, that blizzard simply is not doing right now, whether out of fear that the game will be like brood war with "lots of siege tanks" or for whatever other reasons or because of the fear that Terran will be "imba" like it was ORIGINALLY in beta...but they really need to realize there is a balance problem right now and simply ignoring it and saying "Protoss has the advantage when they defend all your harass" is not the way to go about it. No Terran, no pro terran, not even any Terran in lower leagues is going to be happy that blizzard has no acknowledged they are at a disadvantage when the game goes long. IT's just wrong. If we agree with Blizz assertions that TvP favors T in the early game and P if game continues with little damage, then any downgrade of lategame P has to be met with an upgrade to early game P or a downgrade to early game T. What do you suggest? | ||
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give.ViviD
Sweden235 Posts
Terran: attack mid-game or lose. Protoss: defend mid-game and win | ||
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frontline-
Bulgaria281 Posts
On May 04 2012 16:16 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: except that raven, thors, bc's and ghost - all late game T units - are all easily countered by a freshly warped HT. And good luck trying to micro slow units like thors and bc's versus blink stalkers and chargelots. Thank god you have ghosts for late game than. You know 1 EMP can kill the energy on 5 templars at once and stuff? Also snipe is pretty good. And Im pretty sure you can counter mass chargelots if you scout the protoss composition on time and just build the proper units to counter. Terran isnt really the race that lacks proper units.. | ||
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Fubi
2228 Posts
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architecture
United States643 Posts
Look at win-rate on Cloud Kingdom, PvT win: 70% On that map, most T 1 base is not viable, so P can basically assume expand build. But you remove that threat of 3raxgasless,2rax,111 then P can greed ahead so hard of T builds. | ||
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Kreb
4834 Posts
Nerf stim/medievac combo? Huge change, will affect TvZ. Buff gateway units? Could severly affect PvZ. Allow easier/faster access to "high tier" units (archon, colossus, storm)? Will definitely affect PvZ. In fact, most changes will affect multiple matchups in the midgame since you're fiddling with the "core" units which are alwyas being used. Problem is, once medievacs and stim are done, Ts core units tear through Ps. | ||
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