EPTOr when Parting gets a fast 3rd and drops 8 gateways and rolls over anything Terran has who has the mid game advantage then?
TvP Lategame comment from Blizzard - Page 7
| Forum Index > Closed |
|
xrapture
United States1644 Posts
Or when Parting gets a fast 3rd and drops 8 gateways and rolls over anything Terran has who has the mid game advantage then? | ||
|
avilo
United States4100 Posts
From this post they've made, it is clear they are not going to continue to balance TvP lategame and that they actually in fact acknowledge that if protoss defends your harrass into lategame, they 100% have the advantage. The problem of course is that nowadays, Protoss will virtually always be able to defend your 2 base pressure into the lategame, meaning of course, Blizzard has just acknowledged that protoss has the advantage. It's getting very old. Something can be done to balance TvP late game and allow Terran to fight on even footing but this post they have just put up makes it clear they are completely unwilling to do anything to balance the game out. I would suggest other pro players/personalities that are Terran and otherwise, speak up as much as they can about it and get blizzard to do something. The game simply is not fun for spectators/players/anyone when every game the Protoss player is at an advantage due to simply surviving past the 15 minute mark. I sincerely hope that David Kim/Blizzard will just give in and start to balance the game again for Terran lategame in particular. People are actually starting to quit playing Terran because they are fed up with being at a clear disadvantage in long games where Zerg/Protoss opponents simply defend all the "mid-game aggression" into 30 warpgates or broodlord/infestor. Speak up guys, they will do something if enough people get it across to them that it's not right the game is still like this. p.s. Protoss is not even weak in the mid-game anymore, there are plenty of warpgate all-ins/immortal/collosus all-ins that are difficult to scout from Protoss that can straight up kill Terran with forcefields, etc. I would recommend getting input from Jinro and other vocal Terrans about it if you are doubtful as to what i'm saying. | ||
|
gronnelg
Norway354 Posts
Terran is forced to do midgame damage to protoss. Ok. But is that so bad? It forces the terrans hand, sure. But it makes for more dynamic games, instead of "dual camping til deathball" syndrome. And what about the win/loss ratio? It's pretty balance. So why is it so bad? | ||
|
Resistentialism
Canada688 Posts
On May 04 2012 15:10 sieksdekciw wrote: Agreed. Currently there is little to no incentive for the terran to get more ahead and progress the game capitalizing on a god engagement and containing the toss. All terran thinks nowadays is, gee I sure hope he doesnt get a third. Once toss gets a third it doesnt matter if terran is on 5 or 20 bases, toss just a moves, storms here and there and it is up to the teran to have godlike micro to even not straight up lose. Here are the problems in pvt. Toss can be passive, the terran, however, cant use his map control, but has to attack, otherwise he would be at a disadvantage. Of course, defending is far easier than attacking so it is up to the terran not to mess up. Engagements. Toss generally a moves, terran should be the one to micro if he hopes to win. Againit is up to the terran to actually do something. So, in conclusion, we have toss that is being rewarded for passive play and a moving, we have terran that has to be active and actually to control his army during engagements, while being against the clock. How do you not see a problem on that? In just about any reasonably complex game you'd want to play, there's a difference between relying on a mistake and being able to force mistakes. Hyperbole, etc. | ||
|
Drake
Germany6146 Posts
they say t need to do some midgame stuff they are made for and then the advantage for p in late is nullified ... dont see ANY imbalance in that you just take some sentences out of the context On May 04 2012 15:13 xrapture wrote: The T mid game advantage is a myth. Of the 6-0 stomping toss gave Terran yesterday, how many of those actually were won by toss in the late game? Or when Parting gets a fast 3rd and drops 8 gateways and rolls over anything Terran has who has the mid game advantage then? the p players was way better 1 day earlier you could say the same that mvp rolled over the protoss player and naming parting the BEST pvt gamer in the world,,,, sure he have an easy time pvt cause thats why he is the best ... its like you say "ronaldo dream team can win so easy vs my soccerclub from my village ... plz balance it" | ||
|
necrimanci
70 Posts
go play simcity :f | ||
|
[RS]Fuchs
76 Posts
On May 04 2012 15:05 USvBleakill wrote:In short words: My plan works great because the current metagame tell the toss "stay defending at your base until you are maxed out and have a huge bank. Don´t take any riskes because if you don´t loss a lot in early/midgame you will win." The problem as i saw it on various occasions is that if the protoss decides to push out with a smaller army in the early mid to mid game Terran can load 2 MediVacs with 16 Marines and do a LOT of damage before the Protoss is back in his base to defend it. Leaving some units in the base weakens the push and is rather useless because the bio force is quite hard to stop with few units. If he decides to attack Terran is usually still easily able to hold it with some bunkers and medivacs. The problem for Terran starts if he doesn't drop and or uses the flying DTs to denie 3rd/4th bases for Protoss and or kills some probes in the main natural. Protoss is then able to muster up their heavy tech deathball with massive AOE-damage which is obviously quite deadly for Terrans  => People who complain about Protoss late game don't understand their own strengths. gogo T  | ||
|
SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
| ||
|
larse
1611 Posts
| ||
|
xrapture
United States1644 Posts
On May 04 2012 15:15 CoR wrote: cant se your point, you say blizzard the imbalance but they dont and i see neither they say t need to do some midgame stuff they are made for and then the advantage for p in late is nullified ... dont see ANY imbalance in that you just take some sentences out of the context the p players was way better 1 day earlier you could say the same that mvp rolled over the protoss player and naming parting the BEST pvt gamer in the world,,,, sure he have an easy time pvt cause thats why he is the best ... its like you say "ronaldo dream team can win so easy vs my soccerclub from my village ... plz balance it" Hero is way better than supernova? He was 13-30 and stuck in Code B before the protoss patches, terran nerfs, and all this tvp late game discussion started. Yet, Supernova has been in Code A, Code S for the past year. Please don't insult Supernova. | ||
|
xelnaga_empire
627 Posts
On May 04 2012 15:13 gronnelg wrote: People seem so angry about this. I dont really get it... Terran is forced to do midgame damage to protoss. Ok. But is that so bad? It forces the terrans hand, sure. But it makes for more dynamic games, instead of "dual camping til deathball" syndrome. And what about the win/loss ratio? It's pretty balance. So why is it so bad? It is bad game design. If you don't know why it's bad game design, unfortunately, there is no further point discussing this with you. | ||
|
Kergy
Peru2011 Posts
There will always be periods of dominance of one race until the other 2 adapt to it and the cycle goes on, Blizz can't force a solution every time this happens. | ||
|
dronefarm
United States260 Posts
On May 04 2012 15:13 avilo wrote: p.s. Protoss is not even weak in the mid-game anymore, there are plenty of warpgate all-ins/immortal/collosus all-ins that are difficult to scout from Protoss that can straight up kill Terran with forcefields, etc. I would recommend getting input from Jinro and other vocal Terrans about it if you are doubtful as to what i'm saying. Lol, told you, Avilo is the TvP is fucked up president, man. But this is a good point. Protoss' mid game is actually really strong right now. Blizzard can say that Terran needs to make stuff happen in the midgame, but protoss can deflect that midgame aggression if they're good (obviously it's not as easy as defend then win, I think a lot of people percieve the public opinion as this, but it's not true). I think it's reasonable that Terran should have to do something in the midgame, but the terran should be able to force something to happen in the midgame, and I don't think that's the case. Watch MKP vs Parting from the GSTL (the DC game). Templar make drop play very manageable for protoss when you add in warpgates, even against someone who is sick good at that play like MKP. Obviously he could have played that game better, but Parting has shown us that Protoss can defend that kind of aggression while teching really hard and getting a super fast third. Like I said, WG makes it so protoss doesn't get punished very hard for being out of position if they dump a templar at a base, and I think that's a bad thing. Also, there are a lot of aggressive protoss timings that are really good for protoss. I think the time where we claim Terran is so strong in midgame it makes up for protoss lategame is past us now. | ||
|
Danyl
Canada90 Posts
On May 04 2012 15:23 xrapture wrote: As far as I'm aware, next season will make it 8 straight Code S seasons for Supernova. He is an extremely solid underrated player. Taeja is also a very strong player who's been on a tear lately. I'm not saying the Hero and Squirtle didn't deserve their wins, but when 3 tosses just stomp their Ro8 oppenents (all very strong opponents) 3-0 it just feels a little off. The only terran to win was MVP, the former god of terran, against a foreigner protoss not known for very strong PvT, and that was on the back of two Marine/SCV all ins and one terrible colossus all-in by Naniwa.Hero is way better than supernova? He was 13-30 and stuck in Code B before the protoss patches, terran nerfs, and all this tvp late game discussion started. Yet, Supernova has been in Code A, Code S for the past year. Please don't insult Supernova. Those are korean Terrans, too. Foreign pro terrans have never really done well on any level, and they certainly aren't now. | ||
|
Wrongspeedy
United States1655 Posts
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GOMTV_Global_Starcraft_II_League Medals won by Race 1st 2nd 3rd Total Terran 6 / 8 / 17 / 31 Zerg 5 / 3 / 2 / 10 Protoss 2 / 2 / 7 / 11 | ||
|
avilo
United States4100 Posts
Lategame TvZ: -Tweak raven energy to 75 for HSM, remove the energy upgrade. This gives Terran a unit against broodlord/infestor, as well as a lategame splash unit in general. It would be as "imbalanced" as broodlord+infestor+corruptor currently is, aka just like brood war. They need to start taking this stance in their balance design - make things powerful, instead of nerf, nerf, nerf. Broodlord infestor is powerful as fuck lategame, but giving Terran something equally as powerful to use such as a 75 nrg HSM means not only does Terran get lategame power just like Zerg does in this situation, but both players have incredibly strong things that can actually counteract the other. In Brood war, irradiate and defilers were both "IMBALANCED" but the game ended up being very dynamic and excellent regardless. People have really lost touch with this because they don't remember just how damn good brood war is. Do people realize that defilers literally made all of their zerg ground units INVINCIBLE against 99% of Terran's units? Do people realize the science vessel actually could have enough energy for two irradiates that would kill every single Zerg unit and do splash to units around those? (ok it didn't kill the ultra, but it took out half it's health!) The keys to making this game "good" are all there, it's just it seems the design team does not want to take anything from Starcraft 1 in concept/idea/design to get SC2 to where the balance needs to be. It's a bit disappointing, considering 99% of us are playing SC2 because of how awesome BW is. Lategame PvT: -Make BCS more viable/change price/something BCS are Terran's tier3, there is potential there to make that a transition unit for Terrans. It actually can be in the current game, but it requires 45 min+ stalemate situations (believe me, I probably have the most experience of any Terrans in 45 min+ games). -Nerf the warpgate for the purpose of nerfing protoss's mid-game all-in strength across the board in all three match-ups. Protoss was never meant to have an expoitable assortment of 2 base all-ins vs Z/T. The warp prism was supposed to provide this function of allowing itself to be a mobile warp generator. To fix a lot of issues for PvT lategame, and Protoss all-ins in general (including retarded 1 base all-ins PvP) simply make it so you can only warp in units AROUND GATEWAYS. What this ends up doing is it makes Protoss as a race harder, because all-ins in the manner they are done nowadays will only be accessible through a warp prism. It also means that in lategame TvP if Terran has outplayed the Protoss the Terran is actually given an opportunity via time and travel distance to punish Protoss's expansions/bases. Yes, protoss can still build gateways at far away bases, but that becomes an investment/risk and obviously make the warp-in radius not gigantic so a Protoss player now also has to consider base layout as well. It removes the entire advantage protoss has of simply avoiding travel distance, which is one of the fundamental problems right now with SC2 protoss, and then makes Protoss a less "easy" race to play, which is good. -Late game chargelots They require no micro, and are bad for the game in general. Do something that makes the protoss player actually have to watch them/micro them instead of simply warp in and go afk. -Mech vs Protoss - FIX IT! Terran mech is brood war, just because it's brood war does not mean it's bad *I'm looking at Dustin Browder right now*. In beta, you could go full ghost mech against protoss, and play long macro games even on ridiculously large maps, because siege tanks always were cost effective with their brood war damage, meaning if you were already pre-sieged, and protoss engaged like a caveman, you would always, always get your money's worth. But Browder/Kim seem to have something against anything that is like "brood war" and they nerfed the siege tank, buffed the chargelot, and that was the nail in the coffin for mech tvp. A lot of people do not even remember this change if they did not play the beta, but this is why mech has become a "relic of the past" because of pre-emptive changes to make the game less like broodwar, and encourage Terrans to use the 1A marauder instead. Mech can be made viable TvP, blizzard can do it, let's hope they will instead of side skirting around the issue. They can cheapen armory prices/mech/sky upgrade prices, remove thor energy, things of this nature, along with looking at the zealot armor type and making it so tanks can actually kill chargelots in siege mode lategame... There's a lot that can be done to make Terran viable in lategame, that blizzard simply is not doing right now, whether out of fear that the game will be like brood war with "lots of siege tanks" or for whatever other reasons or because of the fear that Terran will be "imba" like it was ORIGINALLY in beta...but they really need to realize there is a balance problem right now and simply ignoring it and saying "Protoss has the advantage when they defend all your harass" is not the way to go about it. No Terran, no pro terran, not even any Terran in lower leagues is going to be happy that blizzard has no acknowledged they are at a disadvantage when the game goes long. IT's just wrong. | ||
|
nt-rAven
Canada405 Posts
| ||
|
sOvrn
United States678 Posts
| ||
|
Shmantalope
United States6 Posts
On May 04 2012 15:18 necrimanci wrote: reading some posts here makes me think that people would rather watch 2 players max out for 16 minutes and then clash their armies in 1 battle. No pushes, no timings, no harassment go play simcity :f The problem is that this post is implying, as many Terrans have felt, that they MUST do damage midgame or the Protoss will have the advantage. Yet shouldn't all timing attacks and cheeses be defendable if the Protoss prepares properly? Otherwise the attack/cheese would be an uncounterable and imbalanced attack and Terrans would only do it. Thus, as Blizzard states in their other recent balance post update, "Call to Action: Balance Testing (live custom map)", "Protoss players at the pro level currently have all the tools they need to counter various early- to mid-game threats. However, in order to see them utilize the correct tools in various scenarios, we’re decreasing the build time of observers." Thus if Terran needs to do damage, but Protoss can defend it playing a standard, defensive macro style what is the Terran supposed to do? In TvZ there are plenty of macro styles, even though people are acting like its the same situation when its clearly not; hell, practically half the TvZ games at pro level are fast 3 CC builds that lead to sick back and forth macro games where the first push is generally near max. My problem is why can't TvP have back and forth macro game with both players making attacks and counter-attacks, with neither side being afraid to enter the lategame, instead of the Terran being forced into doing 1-2 base all-ins to kill or cripple the Protoss before they reach the lategame and basically 100% deciding the game on the outcome of this attack. Cheese/all-ins/timings should be to exploit weaknesses in your opponents play and punish them for playing too greedy, not your only option to enter the lategame on even footing. | ||
|
AlexanderDebois
Kyrgyzstan38 Posts
On May 04 2012 13:52 Kharnage wrote: What would you have them do? Terran uses the same units in lategame as early game. how can they buff or change those units without making the mid/early game a steamroll in terrans favour? You answered your own question. Allow terrans to actually use different units in the lategame, make our factory tech actually viable against toss. | ||
| ||
