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From the observer change in the test map:
Protoss players at the pro level currently have all the tools they need to counter various early- to mid-game threats. However, in order to see them utilize the correct tools in various scenarios, we’re decreasing the build time of observers. This will give protoss slightly earlier scouting, as well as less time spent tying up the Robotics Facility while building observers. we feel this small change will result in protoss players utilizing their other units a bit more efficiently.
Simultaneously terran is strong mid-game and has to push an advantage there and protoss has the tools to counter early/midgame threats. I agree terran is strong once they get tech up but I found this bit funny.
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I absolutely HATE this response by Blizzard. If anything, it only makes me lose faith in their capabilities to balance. I generally don't like the way they move with things, even since the start. Really bummed out.
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On May 04 2012 14:30 Tump wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 14:20 windsupernova wrote:On May 04 2012 14:05 larse wrote:
Now I start to feel the statement is utterly stupid.
Every race should have equal power in the late-game. Why? Because Late-game is not a relative term in SC2. What Late-game means is a 200 vs 200 standoff or clash. If one race has a disadvantage in this max-out situation, it's simply unfair. Guess what people would do then? They will not let the game go into this 200 vs 200 situation. They will try to win the game before max-out. There is no other way out. I simply don't think this is a good design philosophy. Again, they didn't say that. They say that since T is playing TvP with fragile, but mobile units they need to get a midgame advantage against the more immobile but much more sturdier P. There is no ticking time bomb, there is a burden for the Terran to be the attacker and P to be the defender. If T is successfuly the attacker he will gain a lategame advantage(ie more resources, P is relatively crippled etc...) If P is successful defending and takes no losses he will have the lategame advantage. Races are different and no, a race with 5 bases at 200\200 is not the same as a race at 200\200 on 2 bases. Basically T can't let the P macro up peacefully or T must take more of the map than the P. As many have said its similar to BW TvP. T was the defender most of the game trying to Macro up a powerful army while P either had to cripple the T or take the map and throw bodies at the problem. One thing I do think its causing this perceived "imbalance" is the newer maps where its retardedly easy to take and defend 3 bases which limits T harrass. This new maps are not really harass friendly tbqh. Although in BW lategame PvT, you had the option of using Carriers and Arbiters to deal with the Terran mech deathball. Terran had tactics designed to stop those units. It came down to who was better, because there were options available on both sides. Not just relying on doing x damage by a certain point.
Carriers were super map dependent though. And Ts in SC2 do have options to dealing with HTs and Colossus its Vikings and Ghosts. Its up to the T to get themselves in a position where they can afford a good number of those.Options are available on both sides too.
And again they did not say T had to do X or Y damage by a certain point, they said T had to put themselves in a good position by using agression.
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I'm upset that they still base balance off the ladder. I get fucking planetary fortress rushed on the ladder from time to time; people aren't taking that super serious. That being said, I think there still needs to be some experimentation with mech play from terrans. I think that if the metagame continues to be MMMG comps, protoss by and large are going to win more games because storm, speed zeals and archons are just really powerful and can be replenished way faster, not to mention the unprecedented mobility of WG makes templar based armies very hard to attack into or harass (feedback+warped in zeals are very potent) and protoss can be pretty greedy fairly safely.
I think that the problem with TvP is the WG. I think it might be possible to beat a protoss as good as you with mech play when both players are versed the those styles (you can mention Goody, but noone plays versus mech, really, unless you're playing goody), but WG and the WP make it so hard to play a slow army versus protoss (as we see in ZvP right now). Also, the problem with playing mech is that you're just not going to be able to keep protoss in check with harass because the protoss can warp in right there and deal with your stuff (it's not like in BW where you can really pound apart a 4th with good vulture harass or a tank in a dropship).
I think they're right to delay judgement, but for the wrong reasons. Protoss seems so strong in all the MUs right now, it really seems like something might need to be done, but I think it's OK to wait.
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i dont think the problem is that protoss is even to strong for terran late game, its just the ease of protoss army control im comparison. a move + storms mean while terran has to emp snipe, stutterstep back make sure vikings are focusing colossus, and stim. its jut to much for a normal or even really good player to do.
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How is this any different from TvZ tbh. You have to pressure the zerg or at least play greedy to go toe to toe with a zerg in a macro game. You don't automatically lose lategame TvP, atleast not if you have the advantage going in to it.
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I remember when I started playing sc2 pvz was rough lategame like tvp is today...can't let them macro up. Then we figured out how good the mothership+vortex+archons are. Terrans will figure something out to sway the meta in their favour.
Quit complaining about balance and think about a new late game tactic to counter toss late game. 
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On May 04 2012 13:55 WeaponX.7 wrote:
Here's the problem, damage done in the early doesnt matter once both sides hit 200/200 and in that late game. So basically blizzard just told terrans that they must win before the late game. If a terran drops and kills probes and snnipes a couple tech structures but cant finish the protoss off, what difference does that play if the protoss survives and maxes out? It means nothing.
...yeah, it doesn't matter if you do damage and get ahead...and then allow your opponent to apparently both catch up in supply AND economy.
On May 04 2012 14:40 Panzerfaust7 wrote:
i dont think the problem is that protoss is even to strong for terran late game, its just the ease of protoss army control im comparison. a move + storms mean while terran has to emp snipe, stutterstep back make sure vikings are focusing colossus, and stim. its jut to much for a normal or even really good player to do.
Its pretty insulting to the best Protoss' in the world who have fleshed out the current Protoss dominant meta-game after years of struggling, analyzing and revising strategies, that their success isn't at all attributed to their understanding of the match-up as it currently stands, but infact, that they only have 50 apm and can only conjure up the dexterity to amove a single control group.
Even if it was taken for granted that you were correct, do you think it makes a world of a difference to balance with professional players clocking 300+ APM compared to non-GM players at <120?
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Their explanation seemed to make a lot of sense to me. Different races have different strengths at different times just like it was in Brood War. They don't mean you have to all-in but since Terran has strength in the mid-game they can take an advantage without necessarily having to go all-in on it.
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Well then, if Blizzard says terran is the early/mid game race, then I'll just embrace that. I guess I'll just do 1-1-1 timings off 1 or 2 base every game now if that's what Blizzard says I should be doing.
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I feel the strong need to come in here, tell everyone to calm the fuck down, and defend what is one of the pillars of Starcraft's amazing balance. Not Starcraft 2's balance, but Starcraft's balance. Both I and II. This is one of the most amazing things about the entire franchise.
I'm going to use a Starcraft 1 example because I am not as familiar with Starcraft 2. Keep in mind my memory is rusty as I have not played in a long time, but my understanding of what you are all arguing about is there.
TvZ:
At the beginning of the game, zerg has an advantage with zerglings/speedlings.
When terran gets academy/firebats/medics/stim, terran has and advantage over zerg.
When zerg gets lurkers, zerg has an advantage.
When terran gets siege tanks and spider mines, terran has an advantage.
When mutas are out, zerg has an advantage.
When irradiate is out, terran has an advantage.
When defilers are out, zerg has an advantage.
When science vessel count gets bigger and multiple dropships are out, terran has an advantage.
When ultralisk/defiler/crackling/scourge is out, zerg has an advantage.
When terran has 4+ groups (48) of 3/3 marine/medic/firebat, 2 groups (24) of 3/0 siege tanks, 12+ science vessels, what is zerg's answer to that army?
Answer: There is no answer.
Keep in mind that every advantage is strong enough that the game could end then and there. As players move down the list during the course of a game, they cry of imbalance. Then they get better. Then they realize they can beat it. Then they get to the next imbalanced advantage and cry again. Then zerg gets to the end and realizes he can throw whatever he wants at that terran army and get crushed. So what does a zerg player do? You bend and twist your play around that advantage as zerg to win. You adapt. You change the other parts of the game. Have any of you ever experienced a swarm push into your natural in TvZ in SC1? NOTHING in SC2 even comes CLOSE to swarm of SC1. Mitigates damage? Gives plus armor? How about a spell that gives INVULNERABILITY to units when attacked by ranged units when your entire race is centered around ranged unit? You want to call that imbalanced? Adapt, play smarter, and move on.
These temporary advantages and disadvantage are is necessary result of an exciting game with asymmetrical races. Three different colored races with "a artillery unit, a cavalry unit, a foot soldier" is boring and devolves to nothingness in time. When each unit is unique, this is what results. Do not cry imbalance or fear it because there is beauty in what many call madness. These advantages are what gives rise to one of the greatest attributes of the Starcraft franchise: TIMINGS. Sharp, dangerous, exciting, precise timings. Every single game you watch is made up of timings one after the other, stacked and snowballed on top of each other. That's what makes Starcraft's balance special.
So, no Blizzard is not wrong. They can keep tweaking and changing SC2's TvP to make it better and or even completely different. However, the concept is perfectly fine.
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Wow two weeks go by where protoss isnt getting raped by everything and now everyone screaming protoss imba. Can we have another month before you nerf the shit out of us? lolol
Good on blizz for not bowing to pressure.
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This is pretty depressing to read. This is also a poor PR move this guy's part. I don't even...They honestly think releasing this statement of admitted imbalance (for both sides) is going to sit well with the players....
Asymmetrical balance should be each race's unique abilities, units, and mechanics. That's it. Not Blizz's half baked concoction on whom should win at x amount of time.
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On May 04 2012 13:48 Gamegene wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 13:42 MattBarry wrote:
You know, I'm no expert on BW. I played it for a decade casually with no knowledge of a pro-scene. But from what I've read, isn't there a ticking time bomb where Terran has to do damage before Hive in TvZ. What exactly is the difference? the AoE overkill that can make army values drop horizontally. it's isn't really that difficult/positional either, it's point and click. "terrible terrible damage."
wtf is dropping horizontally
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It's not protoss tech that needs to be countered, it's zealots. T responses to P tech are largely very viable and sufficiently strong.
The problem is that responding to the P tech reduces the strength of your ground army against zeals, which are largely more efficient than bio in many positions, excluding an all marine army.
If T got gasheavy firebats, then I think almost all the issues with the matchup would be solved instantly. It still might be a slightly stale matchup, without viable mech style.
The problem is that battlehellions don't share upgrades with bio, come from a different building, can't kite, and are mechanical. I'm not convinced the battlehellions are what's needed against P. Though, I imagine they will be quite good mech TvZ.
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On May 04 2012 14:45 Gliche wrote:
I feel the strong need to come in here, tell everyone to calm the fuck down, and defend what is one of the pillars of Starcraft's amazing balance. Not Starcraft 2's balance, but Starcraft's balance. Both I and II. This is one of the most amazing things about the entire franchise.
I'm going to use a Starcraft 1 example because I am not as familiar with Starcraft 2. Keep in mind my memory is rusty as I have not played in a long time, but my understanding of what you are all arguing about is there.
TvZ:
At the beginning of the game, zerg has an advantage with zerglings/speedlings.
When terran gets academy/firebats/medics/stim, terran has and advantage over zerg.
When zerg gets lurkers, zerg has an advantage.
When terran gets siege tanks and spider mines, terran has an advantage.
When mutas are out, zerg has an advantage.
When irradiate is out, terran has an advantage.
When defilers are out, zerg has an advantage.
When science vessel count gets bigger and multiple dropships are out, terran has an advantage.
When ultralisk/defiler/crackling/scourge is out, zerg has an advantage.
When terran has 4+ groups (48) of 3/3 marine/medic/firebat, 2 groups (24) of 3/0 siege tanks, 12+ science vessels, what is zerg's answer to that army?
Answer: There is no answer.
Keep in mind that every advantage is strong enough that the game could end then and there. As players move down the list during the course of a game, they cry of imbalance. Then they get better. Then they realize they can beat it. Then they get to the next imbalanced advantage and cry again. Then zerg gets to the end and realizes he can throw whatever he wants at that terran army and get crushed. So what does a zerg player do? You bend and twist your play around that advantage as zerg to win. You adapt. You change the other parts of the game. Have any of you ever experienced a swarm push into your natural in TvZ in SC1? NOTHING in SC2 even comes CLOSE to swarm of SC1. Mitigates damage? Gives plus armor? How about a spell that gives INVULNERABILITY to units when attacked by ranged units when your entire race is centered around ranged unit? You want to call that imbalanced? Adapt, play smarter, and move on.
These temporary advantages and disadvantage are is necessary result of an exciting game with asymmetrical races. Three different colored races with "a artillery unit, a cavalry unit, a foot soldier" is boring and devolves to nothingness in time. When each unit is unique, this is what results. Do not cry imbalance or fear it because there is beauty in what many call madness. These advantages are what gives rise to one of the greatest attributes of the Starcraft franchise: TIMINGS. Sharp, dangerous, exciting, precise timings. Every single game you watch is made up of timings one after the other, stacked and snowballed on top of each other. That's what makes Starcraft's balance special.
So, no Blizzard is not wrong. They can keep tweaking and changing SC2's TvP to make it better and or even completely different. However, the concept is perfectly fine.
Z's answer is having way more mobility, having more bases and econ than the T.
It would make sense if TvP had T as Z's role, but there is no advantage that T gains from more bases.
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This is terrible game design. There should not be "harass race" and a "turtle race" and a "greedy econ race" the way that T, P, and Z currently are. You should be able to play all three styles with any of the races and have within reason an equal chance to win. In other words, you shouldn't be pigeonholed into a race because you like to play RTS a certain way.
I'm a master's Terran (Not saying I'm good, but I like to think I am okay at the game). Now, I hate Protoss players who turtle and 1-a to victory as much as the next Terran, but at the end of the day you cannot blame those players. If I was as proficient with Protoss as I am Terran, I would do the same thing (and also not play Terran). But, Blizzard needs to receive more hate about the TvP matchup from players of both races. Terran's hate Protoss because they 1-a in late-game while Protoss hate Terran for t-1-a in the mid-game. Both sides have valid points and we are only going to see more 1-2 base all-in vs defense-mode toss until HOTS at least. The matchup sucks. Noobs know it. Decent players know it. Pros know it.
TL;DR
Keep hating on the TvP, PvT matchup. Keep hating on the "Gotta win with this BS all-in" vs "Gotta hold this BS all-in" game that Blizzard is sitting on their ass and neglecting to fix.
I really hope HOTS makes mech viable so that we don't have to watch this crap anymore. Bring on D3 please. >.>
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2012 14:45 Gliche wrote:
I feel the strong need to come in here, tell everyone to calm the fuck down, and defend what is one of the pillars of Starcraft's amazing balance. Not Starcraft 2's balance, but Starcraft's balance. Both I and II. This is one of the most amazing things about the entire franchise.
I'm going to use a Starcraft 1 example because I am not as familiar with Starcraft 2. Keep in mind my memory is rusty as I have not played in a long time, but my understanding of what you are all arguing about is there.
TvZ:
At the beginning of the game, zerg has an advantage with zerglings/speedlings.
When terran gets academy/firebats/medics/stim, terran has and advantage over zerg.
When zerg gets lurkers, zerg has an advantage.
When terran gets siege tanks and spider mines, terran has an advantage.
When mutas are out, zerg has an advantage.
When irradiate is out, terran has an advantage.
When defilers are out, zerg has an advantage.
When science vessel count gets bigger and multiple dropships are out, terran has an advantage.
When ultralisk/defiler/crackling/scourge is out, zerg has an advantage.
When terran has 4+ groups (48) of 3/3 marine/medic/firebat, 2 groups (24) of 3/0 siege tanks, 12+ science vessels, what is zerg's answer to that army?
Answer: There is no answer.
Keep in mind that every advantage is strong enough that the game could end then and there. As players move down the list during the course of a game, they cry of imbalance. Then they get better. Then they realize they can beat it. Then they get to the next imbalanced advantage and cry again. Then zerg gets to the end and realizes he can throw whatever he wants at that terran army and get crushed. So what does a zerg player do? You bend and twist your play around that advantage as zerg to win. You adapt. You change the other parts of the game. Have any of you ever experienced a swarm push into your natural in TvZ in SC1? NOTHING in SC2 even comes CLOSE to swarm of SC1. Mitigates damage? Gives plus armor? How about a spell that gives INVULNERABILITY to units when attacked by ranged units when your entire race is centered around ranged unit? You want to call that imbalanced? Adapt, play smarter, and move on.
These temporary advantages and disadvantage are is necessary result of an exciting game with asymmetrical races. Three different colored races with "a artillery unit, a cavalry unit, a foot soldier" is boring and devolves to nothingness in time. When each unit is unique, this is what results. Do not cry imbalance or fear it because there is beauty in what many call madness. These advantages are what gives rise to one of the greatest attributes of the Starcraft franchise: TIMINGS. Sharp, dangerous, exciting, precise timings. Every single game you watch is made up of timings one after the other, stacked and snowballed on top of each other. That's what makes Starcraft's balance special.
So, no Blizzard is not wrong. They can keep tweaking and changing SC2's TvP to make it better and or even completely different. However, the concept is perfectly fine.
Well said. Really great post and it would be a shame if it is ignored.
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I think all the races should be equal in all stages of the game. You can have asymettric design in the races, and achieve this balance.
Ex., Terran might be good harrassers in early game, but Zerg should in response be balanced to have good defenses to balances it out. Those two races have different roles in the early game, but there's no advantage to each.
The balance in the end game should be especially important, because that's where the Kodak moments are; the big specatcle of great gaming and champions where everybody appreciates the skill, not imbalance.
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On May 04 2012 14:49 architecture wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 14:45 Gliche wrote:
I feel the strong need to come in here, tell everyone to calm the fuck down, and defend what is one of the pillars of Starcraft's amazing balance. Not Starcraft 2's balance, but Starcraft's balance. Both I and II. This is one of the most amazing things about the entire franchise.
I'm going to use a Starcraft 1 example because I am not as familiar with Starcraft 2. Keep in mind my memory is rusty as I have not played in a long time, but my understanding of what you are all arguing about is there.
TvZ:
At the beginning of the game, zerg has an advantage with zerglings/speedlings.
When terran gets academy/firebats/medics/stim, terran has and advantage over zerg.
When zerg gets lurkers, zerg has an advantage.
When terran gets siege tanks and spider mines, terran has an advantage.
When mutas are out, zerg has an advantage.
When irradiate is out, terran has an advantage.
When defilers are out, zerg has an advantage.
When science vessel count gets bigger and multiple dropships are out, terran has an advantage.
When ultralisk/defiler/crackling/scourge is out, zerg has an advantage.
When terran has 4+ groups (48) of 3/3 marine/medic/firebat, 2 groups (24) of 3/0 siege tanks, 12+ science vessels, what is zerg's answer to that army?
Answer: There is no answer.
Keep in mind that every advantage is strong enough that the game could end then and there. As players move down the list during the course of a game, they cry of imbalance. Then they get better. Then they realize they can beat it. Then they get to the next imbalanced advantage and cry again. Then zerg gets to the end and realizes he can throw whatever he wants at that terran army and get crushed. So what does a zerg player do? You bend and twist your play around that advantage as zerg to win. You adapt. You change the other parts of the game. Have any of you ever experienced a swarm push into your natural in TvZ in SC1? NOTHING in SC2 even comes CLOSE to swarm of SC1. Mitigates damage? Gives plus armor? How about a spell that gives INVULNERABILITY to units when attacked by ranged units when your entire race is centered around ranged unit? You want to call that imbalanced? Adapt, play smarter, and move on.
These temporary advantages and disadvantage are is necessary result of an exciting game with asymmetrical races. Three different colored races with "a artillery unit, a cavalry unit, a foot soldier" is boring and devolves to nothingness in time. When each unit is unique, this is what results. Do not cry imbalance or fear it because there is beauty in what many call madness. These advantages are what gives rise to one of the greatest attributes of the Starcraft franchise: TIMINGS. Sharp, dangerous, exciting, precise timings. Every single game you watch is made up of timings one after the other, stacked and snowballed on top of each other. That's what makes Starcraft's balance special.
So, no Blizzard is not wrong. They can keep tweaking and changing SC2's TvP to make it better and or even completely different. However, the concept is perfectly fine. Z's answer is having way more mobility, having more bases and econ than the T. It would make sense if TvP had T as Z's role, but there is no advantage that T gains from more bases.
Are you implying a 5 base Terran on 30+ rax against a 3 base protoss has no advantage? I guess the Terran just leaves his units in his natural and waits.
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EPT
