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4713 Posts
On May 04 2012 20:10 ngri wrote:
Quite strange that in like October 2011 Terran was a superdominant race but now they have problems against Protoss, the only major changes were to the Ghosts I guess since then ..
I guess they could just buff Ghosts again..
The map pool has also changed a lot since then, bigger and more macro oriented maps have been made and popularized, maps that also have very good defensive features and also features that make dropping and air play weaker.
Its disturbing that Toss can be so unstable as a race, struggles on more aggressive orientated maps but nearly dominates on macro oriented maps.
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On May 04 2012 20:10 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 19:55 Rachnar wrote:On May 04 2012 19:53 Plansix wrote:On May 04 2012 19:48 Rachnar wrote:On May 04 2012 19:45 Plansix wrote:On May 04 2012 19:37 Ace1123 wrote:
Drops are especially hard to do vs toss, They Always leave HT to feedback and just warp in a few chargelots and there the drop will be nullified I am going to tell you as a protoss player, I do not always have HTs or chargelots. You should try dropping when we do not have those units, which could be the first 12-15 minutes of the game. no, then you have colossi or stargate tech, and if you don't by 15 mn, and are still on full gate units, you should have ended the game for a long time because that's pretty all in (but only protoss can all in, not do damage and go back to macro np) Sounds like you have a really poor understanding of TvP and when protoss is vulnerable to drops. You should study up on the match up, rather than claim that stargate tech prevents you from dropping a protoss. stargate techs does stop drops, unless you have 0 map vision, and with phoenix, that's not the sort of thing you're lacking (but that btw, wasn't even what my post was talkign about) You can have a phoenix or voidray out well in time for a drop off a standard 12 rax/13 gas 1-1-1. It's not like the zomg counter to drop builds, it still requires the toss to intercept your drop. But the timing is not wrong, AFAIK.
You might have two vikings with your drop then if you suggest something as silly as phoenix/voidray defending a drop.
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funny how this thread went.
let me tell you something:
- I decided to switch to toss, cause it's just SOOOOO much easier to play. (although I still play TvZ)
I get the balance discussion, and on the highest level (although seeing recent results I'm not sure about this anymore) it seems like T is pretty damn good. The problem that exists for lower tier players (which means everyone xcept GM and top master) is, that you need to have 300+ apm and the most amazing micro + multitask to beat a decent toss.
Now that I switched, from a toss perspective against terran it looks something like this:
1. scout early to be safe against allins, then get an expo
2. defend against drops until you have the necessary tech to get a third (or scout well and take third with terran)
3. kill terran
after a certain point in the game protoss is always the acting race and terran has to react.
toss can techswitch between templar/collossi/archons.... terran has to always have the right composition and a perfect engagement to at least stay in the game.
the difference in skill needed on a certain level is just no fun anymore.
I win so much more and I have so much more fun pl aying toss than terran. And I feel this trend is going to continue until there's going to be 80% of PvP on the ladder.
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On May 04 2012 20:14 sCuMBaG wrote:
funny how this thread went.
let me tell you something:
- I decided to switch to toss, cause it's just SOOOOO much easier to play. (although I still play TvZ)
I get the balance discussion, and on the highest level (although seeing recent results I'm not sure about this anymore) it seems like T is pretty damn good. The problem that exists for lower tier players (which means everyone xcept GM and top master) is, that you need to have 300+ apm and the most amazing micro + multitask to beat a decent toss.
Now that I switched from a toss perspective it looks like this:
1. scout early to be safe against allins, then get an expo
2. defend against drops until you have the necessary tech to get a third (or scout well and take third with terran)
3. kill terran
the difference in skill needed on a certain level is just no fun anymore.
I win so much more and I have so much more fun pl aying toss than terran. And I feel this trend is going to continue until there's going to be 80% of PvP on the ladder.
completly agree, when i'm in tourneys and fall against better TERRAN players then me, i take protoss, and have about 50% winrate against really better players then me (i don't even play toss on ladder, only terran, and don't train as toss either at all)
just so much easier/more powerfull then terran
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On May 04 2012 19:56 Killmouse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 19:53 Plansix wrote:
Sounds like you have a really poor understanding of TvP and when protoss is vulnerable to drops. You should study up on the match up, rather than claim that stargate tech prevents you from dropping a protoss. 12-15 there are already templars ingame when u try to drop before 12-15 min marks there are most of the time 4-6 stalkers in their main base to deny drops
This exactly, I was watching some toss school on Yegwen's channel and it was one of the first tip that was handed out: keep your stalkers in the main, rest of forces in the nat. You see T army coming - FF'em out and take down the drop.
And this is what even semi-decent tosses do on the ladder (plat level). So there goes your drop play...
And I can't really tell how come toss has such a big disadvantage early / mid game with builds like 3-gate robo, 4gate, 6/7 gate (+ optional warp prism) etc. They do have all these options, still they don't have to take the risk since turtle + tech brings a higher level of certainty.
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On May 04 2012 20:12 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:10 ngri wrote:
Quite strange that in like October 2011 Terran was a superdominant race but now they have problems against Protoss, the only major changes were to the Ghosts I guess since then ..
I guess they could just buff Ghosts again.. The map pool has also changed a lot since then, bigger and more macro oriented maps have been made and popularized, maps that also have very good defensive features and also features that make dropping and air play weaker. Its disturbing that Toss can be so unstable as a race, struggles on more aggressive orientated maps but nearly dominates on macro oriented maps.
That's very true.. You're completely right, that seems to have the biggest impact on the flow of the game at the moment.
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On May 04 2012 20:12 Killmouse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:10 ngri wrote:
Quite strange that in like October 2011 Terran was a superdominant race but now they have problems against Protoss, the only major changes were to the Ghosts I guess since then ..
I guess they could just buff Ghosts again.. ghost nerf, upgrade buff, immortal range, cheaper obs
Dont forget to add that the ghost was actually nerfed twice and that the observer is soon to be buffed AGAIN if their new idea of "balance" goes through after the antiga test map
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On May 04 2012 20:12 nOondn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:08 Ushi wrote:On May 04 2012 19:56 nOondn wrote:On May 04 2012 19:44 Ushi wrote:On May 04 2012 19:25 IshinShishi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2012 18:50 nOondn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:45 Ushi wrote:
I believe there is so many things wrong with this mob mentality about late game TvP. Sorry if this comes off as a flame in anyway but this is just how I see it.
1) TvP late game is a little harder for the Terran but not impossible
2) The refusal to innovate and simply play better is what separates Koreans from non-Koreans
3) StarCraft is a complex game and stop pretending you have it all figured it out
I guess I should try to explain some of my points. Terrans can hold their own in the late game. I bet its hard when terrible players just rush mmm+viking+ghost and think they've done everything possible to hold off a death ball in the middle of an open map. This is not the only way to play TvP late game despite how many people expect. You can actually perform drops and force the Protoss to split their army which is a common solution. Rather than focusing on the strengths of a Protoss army, Terrans should simply find the weaknesses. Mobility and positioning come into mind.
People refuse to believe mech has any place in the matchup which is insane. It is off the table for 90% of players because all the strategies they've seen and tried failed miserably. This really just means that no one really figured out how to use mech in tvp yet and it is not the same as mech is impossible don't bother. MVP and I believe MKP have opted for some very unique tank play and holding strategic ramps. People may argue these were just parts of mid-game pushes and completely ignore that tanks were pretty good at holding positions on the maps like small chokes. (shocker)
The biggest thing that bothers me and makes me believe most people don't know what they are really talking about is when they talk about the late-game in a bubble. The late-game is a progression from the early and mid-game. In an entire game of opportunities people simply assume, each player macroed perfectly and never really made any outcome-altering moves during the early to mid-game then a protoss player should beat a terran player. This is completely ignoring all the positioning, map balance, map control, etc that a player has at the time. Is it entirely possible a Terran that has map control before a protoss's death push has an advantage because they can control where to drop and flank? What about choosing to engage protoss only at narrow chokes and choosing only to flank from multiple sides? Maybe we should just assume a collosus is melting terran from all 4 angles while storms are perfectly laid and no chances of dodging is available.
I really think Blizzard's response is correct because HotS in on the horizon and they shouldn't bother fixing what really isn't broken. There were periods in Brood War when Zerg found it impossible to play competitively against high level terrans until the brilliance of some bonjwa came and showed an ailing race "how its done." I would believe there was a problem if I never saw a late-game Terran beat a late-game Toss convincingly. I really think it really comes down to something 90+% of the whiners don't quite understand. Execution matters. i want to see replay or it become only theory craft .... And bad theory craft at that, as drops are actually bad in the current metagame, protoss players know that all they have to do is defend through the mid game, so they've learnt how to defend against drops to the point where those are extremely cost inefficient, ergo you should only drop when you are ahead, or when the protoss has to actually split his army to defend, i.e after a big engagement which left very few units standing(assuming terran won), they DO NOT have to split anything in the late game, because every semi-decent protoss will have templars ready to feedback/storm and a zealot warp-in will crush whatever is left of the drop since they won't be supported by medivacs (no energy in the ones that didn't die), not that mention that dropping just leaves your main army and base vulnerable to a counter attack(which happens to kill a lot of terrans, frequently), and is easier to defend than it's to manage, because you have to stutter step way from simply warped-in zealots(Supernova died vs Hero in Metropolis mainly because of this, he tried to micro multiple drops at the same time which means he had to watch them, while HerO hit his weakened main army whilst feedbacking and warping-in zealots vs the drops, which takes a lot less screen time than dropping).Also, this "terran is stronger in the early game" bullshit has gotten way out of hand, especially in the current map pool where the rush distances are getting bigger and bigger, which btw, do not affect 6-7-8 gate all-ins and 3 gate pressures, now who again is stronger in the early game?Because I don't see working 2 rax pressures anymore, at least, their success is not even slightly close to that of the 3 gate. Regarding mech : Siege tanks die very fast and don't kill anything protoss related in due time, starting by their most basic unit, the zealot.Anyways, "The biggest thing that bothers me and makes me believe most people don't know what they are really talking about", okay, Mr.Irony. I definitely see your point that drops are nullified by good defense but not many protoss can play so perfectly. This idea that hey we can't drop anymore because any "semi-decent protoss" just counters with x,y, and z seems insane. It is the Terran's burden to find holes in a protoss's play and exploit it. This is like Zerg in BW where sitting back while a terran macros means death. Especially if the Terran went mech in BW. I guess if we assume a protoss has perfect map awareness and can utilize HT's perfectly then it might feel like an impossible uphill battle for a Terran. It is entirely possible this is a glaring imbalance that will only grow over time until a change is forced by Blizzard. I don't feel it has come to this point yet because there is maybe 1 or 2 protosses out there that can really pull perfect play off. An impenetrable turtle defense into a death push. Sounds like you're playing against Flash haha. People need to really change their mindset when playing if they want the metagame to evolve. I still honestly feel at the highest levels of play, the better player wins. This notion of TvP lategame imbalance is grossly exaggerated though I will concede its not perfect atm. Sound like you're not playing in the high level ? becuase it not hard to defend from drop or multiprong attack at all. I am not claiming to be a high level player. I just know the responses from watching a TON of pros play and following BW closely for a bit. I still feel it comes down to execution. If multi-prong drops are so easy to deal with then why do Koreans still do it. Because it works sometimes. Sometimes it is downright brutal how effective they are. Maybe I am relying too much on a protoss's mistake but this is what happens in real games. StarCraft is a game of tempo where you can force your opponent to make mistakes. This is true skill in my opinion when you can make a protoss player uncomfortable even in the late game. The threat of backstabs, a well executed flank, counter-attacks, strong turtle position to buy time, good viking maneuvering, strong ghost control. These are all options that terrans have with a mobile MMMVG army. If you feel a your terran army is unthreatening to a protoss death ball, you're probably doing it wrong. So we need to rely on "Luck" to hope that The opponent is bad and can't keep up with drop ? Show nested quote +don't necessarily agree that dropping is needed to win against protoss. I tend to drop only in those rare occasions where it's almost 100% guaranteed damage. A lot of the times it's just a gamble. Of course if you react fast and move away once you see units you will most likely not lose anything, so that is fine as well. But sometimes you lose because you have 2 medivacs out on the map while he attacks your main army and defends with warp ins + cannonsIn TvT and TvZ you have a bigger defender's advantage because of tanks so it's safer when it comes to counterattacks. Also, they might have upgraded blink, or in rare cases have phoenix, whereas you just lose a chunk of your army and a snowball effect takes place. It can be very hard to know sometimes. And this quote if from "Thorzain"
I think luck is a weird word at the highest level of play. Every strategy is a gamble. You really don't know how your opponent will react. The only thing you have on your side is the ability to pressure and hope for the best. All pro-gamers probably know it instinctively when they attack. There is always an opening. You can argue that luck is the reason pro-gamer A beat pro-gamer B but it really comes down to psychology and mind games. It is absolutely amazing how razor thin winning actually is at the highest level of BW play and Terrans need to take a page from before complaining. It may not be what 90%+ of Terrans want to hear but I think there needs to be more time before there really is a skill imbalance and not a gameplay imbalance at the current time.
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls2/vod/67126
Although MVP's game vs Naniwa got into the late game, there were no drops but a lot of things happened. MVP forced control of parts of the map due to the architecture with tanks. He controlled the tempo of the game and really made it so Naniwa had no choice but to turtle. Forcing a protoss to turtle into the late game is much different than letting a protoss turtle. Its just all a dynamic shift between who can make the other player sweat. I am sure people will say Naniwa did x,y,z, wrong and thats why he lost but thats what makes StarCraft so interesting. No player is perfect. Flash hasn't jumped ship yet.
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On May 04 2012 13:41 larse wrote:
Terran unit design is another problem. The terran mech and tier 3 units are not so effective against protoss (that's why everyone goes MMM). If you play the HOTS unit tester map, you know that battlehellion and warhound do solve this problem. But HOTS is at least one year away. So, the situation is now a little tricky.
The beta is coming up in June, so it's much sooner than "at least one year away".
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4713 Posts
One last thing I want to add on maps and balance. It seems the extent of the nerfs/buffs was made worst with the fact that both Blizzard and the community tried to balance SC2 at the same time.
The map making community, as it always does, tried to make newer and more interesting macro oriented map, with some features that indirectly help toss or don't directly help terran. At the same time Blizzard decided to patch things up.
This is why I believe and advise caution in regards to map making. In this case we don't know exactly if the nerfs from Blizzard where too much, the maps are too toss friendly, or how much of a contribution both really had.
Perhaps with the old map pool TvP could actually have been balanced, as is however we know there is a disturbance somewhere but can't truly accurately pinpoint it.
This is also the reason why I notice TvP to be more even in the international scene, foreign tournaments still use older maps like, Shakuras, TDA, Metal (or at least they used), while GSL mainly used the newer macro oriented maps.
This is yet another reason why you can't trust the international graphs, not only is the skill range wildly different, but the map pool is also different.
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IMO an isolated TvP battle late-game is better for the Terran, but Protoss has the advantage because it can replenish its army before the Terran can. This means that Protoss wins by attrition while Terran would win head-to-head. Doesn't this automatically force each race to play differently in the late-game itself? Terran needs to negate Protoss' strenghts in a different way that Protoss negates Terran's weaknesses. Why should it be different in the mid-game?
Then again my opinion isn't worth very much.
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On May 04 2012 20:25 Ushi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:12 nOondn wrote:On May 04 2012 20:08 Ushi wrote:On May 04 2012 19:56 nOondn wrote:On May 04 2012 19:44 Ushi wrote:On May 04 2012 19:25 IshinShishi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2012 18:50 nOondn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:45 Ushi wrote:
I believe there is so many things wrong with this mob mentality about late game TvP. Sorry if this comes off as a flame in anyway but this is just how I see it.
1) TvP late game is a little harder for the Terran but not impossible
2) The refusal to innovate and simply play better is what separates Koreans from non-Koreans
3) StarCraft is a complex game and stop pretending you have it all figured it out
I guess I should try to explain some of my points. Terrans can hold their own in the late game. I bet its hard when terrible players just rush mmm+viking+ghost and think they've done everything possible to hold off a death ball in the middle of an open map. This is not the only way to play TvP late game despite how many people expect. You can actually perform drops and force the Protoss to split their army which is a common solution. Rather than focusing on the strengths of a Protoss army, Terrans should simply find the weaknesses. Mobility and positioning come into mind.
People refuse to believe mech has any place in the matchup which is insane. It is off the table for 90% of players because all the strategies they've seen and tried failed miserably. This really just means that no one really figured out how to use mech in tvp yet and it is not the same as mech is impossible don't bother. MVP and I believe MKP have opted for some very unique tank play and holding strategic ramps. People may argue these were just parts of mid-game pushes and completely ignore that tanks were pretty good at holding positions on the maps like small chokes. (shocker)
The biggest thing that bothers me and makes me believe most people don't know what they are really talking about is when they talk about the late-game in a bubble. The late-game is a progression from the early and mid-game. In an entire game of opportunities people simply assume, each player macroed perfectly and never really made any outcome-altering moves during the early to mid-game then a protoss player should beat a terran player. This is completely ignoring all the positioning, map balance, map control, etc that a player has at the time. Is it entirely possible a Terran that has map control before a protoss's death push has an advantage because they can control where to drop and flank? What about choosing to engage protoss only at narrow chokes and choosing only to flank from multiple sides? Maybe we should just assume a collosus is melting terran from all 4 angles while storms are perfectly laid and no chances of dodging is available.
I really think Blizzard's response is correct because HotS in on the horizon and they shouldn't bother fixing what really isn't broken. There were periods in Brood War when Zerg found it impossible to play competitively against high level terrans until the brilliance of some bonjwa came and showed an ailing race "how its done." I would believe there was a problem if I never saw a late-game Terran beat a late-game Toss convincingly. I really think it really comes down to something 90+% of the whiners don't quite understand. Execution matters. i want to see replay or it become only theory craft .... And bad theory craft at that, as drops are actually bad in the current metagame, protoss players know that all they have to do is defend through the mid game, so they've learnt how to defend against drops to the point where those are extremely cost inefficient, ergo you should only drop when you are ahead, or when the protoss has to actually split his army to defend, i.e after a big engagement which left very few units standing(assuming terran won), they DO NOT have to split anything in the late game, because every semi-decent protoss will have templars ready to feedback/storm and a zealot warp-in will crush whatever is left of the drop since they won't be supported by medivacs (no energy in the ones that didn't die), not that mention that dropping just leaves your main army and base vulnerable to a counter attack(which happens to kill a lot of terrans, frequently), and is easier to defend than it's to manage, because you have to stutter step way from simply warped-in zealots(Supernova died vs Hero in Metropolis mainly because of this, he tried to micro multiple drops at the same time which means he had to watch them, while HerO hit his weakened main army whilst feedbacking and warping-in zealots vs the drops, which takes a lot less screen time than dropping).Also, this "terran is stronger in the early game" bullshit has gotten way out of hand, especially in the current map pool where the rush distances are getting bigger and bigger, which btw, do not affect 6-7-8 gate all-ins and 3 gate pressures, now who again is stronger in the early game?Because I don't see working 2 rax pressures anymore, at least, their success is not even slightly close to that of the 3 gate. Regarding mech : Siege tanks die very fast and don't kill anything protoss related in due time, starting by their most basic unit, the zealot.Anyways, "The biggest thing that bothers me and makes me believe most people don't know what they are really talking about", okay, Mr.Irony. I definitely see your point that drops are nullified by good defense but not many protoss can play so perfectly. This idea that hey we can't drop anymore because any "semi-decent protoss" just counters with x,y, and z seems insane. It is the Terran's burden to find holes in a protoss's play and exploit it. This is like Zerg in BW where sitting back while a terran macros means death. Especially if the Terran went mech in BW. I guess if we assume a protoss has perfect map awareness and can utilize HT's perfectly then it might feel like an impossible uphill battle for a Terran. It is entirely possible this is a glaring imbalance that will only grow over time until a change is forced by Blizzard. I don't feel it has come to this point yet because there is maybe 1 or 2 protosses out there that can really pull perfect play off. An impenetrable turtle defense into a death push. Sounds like you're playing against Flash haha. People need to really change their mindset when playing if they want the metagame to evolve. I still honestly feel at the highest levels of play, the better player wins. This notion of TvP lategame imbalance is grossly exaggerated though I will concede its not perfect atm. Sound like you're not playing in the high level ? becuase it not hard to defend from drop or multiprong attack at all. I am not claiming to be a high level player. I just know the responses from watching a TON of pros play and following BW closely for a bit. I still feel it comes down to execution. If multi-prong drops are so easy to deal with then why do Koreans still do it. Because it works sometimes. Sometimes it is downright brutal how effective they are. Maybe I am relying too much on a protoss's mistake but this is what happens in real games. StarCraft is a game of tempo where you can force your opponent to make mistakes. This is true skill in my opinion when you can make a protoss player uncomfortable even in the late game. The threat of backstabs, a well executed flank, counter-attacks, strong turtle position to buy time, good viking maneuvering, strong ghost control. These are all options that terrans have with a mobile MMMVG army. If you feel a your terran army is unthreatening to a protoss death ball, you're probably doing it wrong. So we need to rely on "Luck" to hope that The opponent is bad and can't keep up with drop ? don't necessarily agree that dropping is needed to win against protoss. I tend to drop only in those rare occasions where it's almost 100% guaranteed damage. A lot of the times it's just a gamble. Of course if you react fast and move away once you see units you will most likely not lose anything, so that is fine as well. But sometimes you lose because you have 2 medivacs out on the map while he attacks your main army and defends with warp ins + cannonsIn TvT and TvZ you have a bigger defender's advantage because of tanks so it's safer when it comes to counterattacks. Also, they might have upgraded blink, or in rare cases have phoenix, whereas you just lose a chunk of your army and a snowball effect takes place. It can be very hard to know sometimes. And this quote if from "Thorzain" I think luck is a weird word at the highest level of play. Every strategy is a gamble. You really don't know how your opponent will react. The only thing you have on your side is the ability to pressure and hope for the best. All pro-gamers probably know it instinctively when they attack. There is always an opening. You can argue that luck is the reason pro-gamer A beat pro-gamer B but it really comes down to psychology and mind games. It is absolutely amazing how razor thin winning actually is at the highest level of BW play and Terrans need to take a page from before complaining. It may not be what 90%+ of Terrans want to hear but I think there needs to be more time before there really is a skill imbalance and not a gameplay imbalance at the current time. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls2/vod/67126Although MVP's game vs Naniwa got into the late game, there were no drops but a lot of things happened. MVP forced control of parts of the map due to the architecture with tanks. He controlled the tempo of the game and really made it so Naniwa had no choice but to turtle. Forcing a protoss to turtle into the late game is much different than letting a protoss turtle. Its just all a dynamic shift between who can make the other player sweat. I am sure people will say Naniwa did x,y,z, wrong and thats why he lost but thats what makes StarCraft so interesting. No player is perfect. Flash hasn't jumped ship yet.
i thought we are discuss about "drop play" and you show me the game where MVP doing 2 base all in ?? what ?
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4713 Posts
On May 04 2012 20:32 howLiN wrote:
IMO an isolated TvP battle late-game is better for the Terran, but Protoss has the advantage because it can replenish its army before the Terran can. This means that Protoss wins by attrition while Terran would win head-to-head. Doesn't this automatically force each race to play differently in the late-game itself? Terran needs to negate Protoss' strenghts in a different way that Protoss negates Terran's weaknesses. Why should it be different in the mid-game?
Then again my opinion isn't worth very much.
That's is in no way accurate. Protoss has two types of strong aoe, colossus and storm, and in combination they destroy bio, the only viable composition in that match up. And while Colossus can be sniped it seems now that it is much, much harder to eliminate all the HT before a fight occurs, if the protoss is smart and splits them in 3-4 groups of 2 each they can come in at different times of the battle and storm the life out of a terran. It only takes 2-3 well placed storms to turn the tide of a fight, and the toss can afford and tank some damage from zealots, the terran has no such luxury of tanking damage while ghosts try to kill HT.
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Ahahah they're just trolling us. "Asymmetric balance". AHAHHAHAHA
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If Terran were to be buffed in the late-game (against Protoss), they'd need corresponding nerfs in the early game, where Blizzard currently states they have an advantage. Blizzard seems to feel that the Terran early-mid game is better than Protoss, and thus Terran is expected to emerge with some form of an advantage in the late-game, where Toss's superiority then comes into play over whether that advantage was large enough and who (in the end) wins.
- Zerg player.
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People are really whining a lot.
I like what blizzard said here. Yes, if you as a terran allow a toss to freely turtle, you're probably gonna get smashed, and I think that is alright. It's pretty much the same if you allow a zerg to drone as much as he wants without pressuring at all.
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MKP is sparring with MC on his stream. Hope its good.
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On May 04 2012 20:50 Testuser wrote:
People are really whining a lot.
I like what blizzard said here. Yes, if you as a terran allow a toss to freely turtle, you're probably gonna get smashed, and I think that is alright. It's pretty much the same if you allow a zerg to drone as much as he wants without pressuring at all.
The problem is that the only thing that seems to work against a turtling toss is a one or two-base all-in. And this is what keeps the matchup balanced in terms of winrates. Also it keeps the matchup dull to watch (in 9/10 games) and dull to play.
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Saying that you have to all-in or kill the protoss in the early to midgame is absurd. You have to cripple him, to do damage, which frankly isn't very hard for a terran to do early on. So, just like you're saying that it's bad design that Terrans has to cripple him early to win, is the same thing as saying Protoss has to defend vs this pressure to win. It is the matchup, get over it.
-Over and Out
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On May 04 2012 19:45 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 19:42 mcc wrote:On May 04 2012 18:32 Jarree wrote:On May 04 2012 18:18 mcc wrote:On May 04 2012 18:11 Jarree wrote:On May 04 2012 18:05 mcc wrote:On May 04 2012 18:04 Jarree wrote:On May 04 2012 17:50 furo wrote:
The metagame right now favours P in lategame, but that has nothing to do with balance. P's are techning and upgrading very fast in the midgame right now, this obv leaves them vulnerable in the midgame and strong in the lategame.
It has absolutely nothing to do with metagame. Give both T and P 3-3 upgrades, 200 supply, 2k bank and 5 bases. P is heavily favored. And that is the balance problem why ? Did I say it was? I thought i said it has nothing to do with metagame. If you were not complaining about balance then second part of your post has no relation to what he said. And it actually easily can be metagame issue exactly because what you said. He said protoss late game is stronger because they rush upgrades and tech, meaning they get them faster than terran ie. because of metagame. I proposed a situation where both players have equal max tech and upgrades and claimed P is stronger. What part do you not get? You can disagree P is not stronger in that situation, that is a fair opinion of course. Because your argument does not in any way show it is not a metagame issue. You pick random lategame situation with equal bases and equal resources. Why ? What if terran has a way to make sure that never happens and can actually be ahead on both. Then your point actually reinforces that current TvP late game problems are metagame based. Your argument did not show in any way that it is not a metagame issue, that is why I assumed you are making a balance complaint. I am sure 'What ifs' make for stronger arguments.
He is the one making strong general statement that he has to support. His argument does not support his statement. I on the other hand make no general statement I just pointed out his argument has holes. My "what if" is a valid critique of his argument as he assumed things without evidence.
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EPT
