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On May 04 2012 21:19 vthree wrote:
Just saying that terrans have to micro a LOT more than P late game is already a problem in itself. One race shouldn't HAVE to micro a lot more to stay even... Sure, some units are more micro intensive but it should not be that drastic... Maybe blizzard needs to have an auto stutter step upgrade for bio so terrans can actually try to micro their ghosts and medivacs. Make it so it is not as good as MKP's perfect stutter but at least terrans can trade decently vs chargelots. Then we can see whether PartinG's HT control is really that good or because terrans have an innate handicap due to HAVING to stutter step to be effective
Oh no please do not make the game easier. I dont mind imbalance comapred to how boring playing toss is.
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On May 04 2012 21:03 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:55 Nightmarez wrote:
Saying that you have to all-in or kill the protoss in the early to midgame is absurd. You have to cripple him, to do damage, which frankly isn't very hard for a terran to do early on. So, just like you're saying that it's bad design that Terrans has to cripple him early to win, is the same thing as saying Protoss has to defend vs this pressure to win. It is the matchup, get over it.
-Over and Out That's stupid, simplistic and single minded. I haven't seen a game where the terran crippled the protoss if the protoss was in a defensive posture or if the protoss hadn't commited some horrific and idiotic mistake till then. Quite frankly the MU is already dull given the fact that most protosses prefer in some way or another to turtle up until the point they feel they have an advantage, then press it. The game should be equally back and forth, the terran should have an option to turtle till he gets a strong comp and the protoss should feel the need to stop him somehow or have the choice to tech up as well. At the moment some of those options don't exist, and it makes the MU predictable, the question boils down to how will the terran try to cheese the protoss? Will it be a early game timing, a mid game timing, or an economic cheese? And for the protoss it boils down to, can he survive long enough to make use of his late game advantage? Just because the MU is the way it is now doesn't mean we can and should accept it, deal with it.
There is no economic cheese, it is called being greedy. Timings are also not cheese. And the rest is your opinions. Why should the game be back and forth equally, did you notice it is not a mirror matchup ? Matchup being dull has nothing to do with the supposedly too strong protoss lategame. It being dull has nothing to do with balance which is what Blizzard was talking about.
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All this whining - let the metagame evolve and see What comes up. When the sad zealots were sniffing all around the world, it was up to ONE guy called  Creator to show P a way of having a strong army without the dire need for super fast aoe-tech and changed the entire match up (and at that,even before the toss upgrades got buffed).
Terran players have almost exclusively used the same strats (all ins not counting) when it came to macro games. Is it a surprise that Toss players eventually adopted or better: perfected their play against that coz of learning it the hard way (i.e. getting beatn up by it for almost a year).
Terran needs to evolve in it's game styles - and that includes learning to spice up one's micro: Koreans ( MKP started with that I believe) have begun to minimize losses and force FF energy via elevating units over FFs with their first 2 med vacs. I'm not saying that this is the solution to TvP but u gotta start searching for a solution instead of crying all over the place because ppl figuered out how to take ur year-old cake away...
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Well i feel that one of the difficulties for terran is nowadays is because drops are becoming less and less effective because they are leaving stalkers in their main and chronoing out more obs so if agression is utterly denied, the chances of winning for the terran player are drastically decreased. All protoss has to do is turtle on 3 base defensively and shut down agressive moves.
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On May 04 2012 21:19 vthree wrote:
Just saying that terrans have to micro a LOT more than P late game is already a problem in itself. One race shouldn't HAVE to micro a lot more to stay even... Sure, some units are more micro intensive but it should not be that drastic... Maybe blizzard needs to have an auto stutter step upgrade for bio so terrans can actually try to micro their ghosts and medivacs. Make it so it is not as good as MKP's perfect stutter but at least terrans can trade decently vs chargelots. Then we can see whether PartinG's HT control is really that good or because terrans have an innate handicap due to HAVING to stutter step to be effective
Not sure if you're serious but i agree, with the oposite of this. Make the P death ball harder to control to increse skill cap.
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On May 04 2012 21:20 Douillos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 21:19 vthree wrote:
Just saying that terrans have to micro a LOT more than P late game is already a problem in itself. One race shouldn't HAVE to micro a lot more to stay even... Sure, some units are more micro intensive but it should not be that drastic... Maybe blizzard needs to have an auto stutter step upgrade for bio so terrans can actually try to micro their ghosts and medivacs. Make it so it is not as good as MKP's perfect stutter but at least terrans can trade decently vs chargelots. Then we can see whether PartinG's HT control is really that good or because terrans have an innate handicap due to HAVING to stutter step to be effective Oh no please do not make the game easier. I dont mind imbalance comapred to how boring playing toss is.
Agreed, I mean the solution is to make the other races have to micro the same as the terran, so micro potential is greater which results in the better player being able to outmicro his opponent. The first unit that needs to be looked at is the chargelot which is just a move(which is kind of funny, since that upgrade for the most part removes micro from the unupgraded zlot, which atleast in ZvP is microed a lot).
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On May 04 2012 21:03 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:55 Nightmarez wrote:
Saying that you have to all-in or kill the protoss in the early to midgame is absurd. You have to cripple him, to do damage, which frankly isn't very hard for a terran to do early on. So, just like you're saying that it's bad design that Terrans has to cripple him early to win, is the same thing as saying Protoss has to defend vs this pressure to win. It is the matchup, get over it.
-Over and Out That's stupid, simplistic and single minded. I haven't seen a game where the terran crippled the protoss if the protoss was in a defensive posture or if the protoss hadn't commited some horrific and idiotic mistake till then. Quite frankly the MU is already dull given the fact that most protosses prefer in some way or another to turtle up until the point they feel they have an advantage, then press it.
The game should be equally back and forth, the terran should have an option to turtle till he gets a strong comp and the protoss should feel the need to stop him somehow or have the choice to tech up as well. At the moment some of those options don't exist, and it makes the MU predictable, the question boils down to how will the terran try to cheese the protoss? Will it be a early game timing, a mid game timing, or an economic cheese? And for the protoss it boils down to, can he survive long enough to make use of his late game advantage? Just because the MU is the way it is now doesn't mean we can and should accept it, deal with it.
Try playing toss and see how easy it is to compete on the minimap with an equal supply terran army with stim/medivacs before you have major splash out. Even if you manage to win an engagement with some sort of incredible FFs you are running the risk of getting doom dropped by moving out at all. Toss don't turtle out of choice but because the match up demands it because toss armies without enough splash get ROFLstomped by equal suppy terran armies unless you have MC level FFs. Is it really so difficult to believe that players like Parting, Squirtle and Hero actually have some skills are aren't just winning because their race is OP?
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On May 04 2012 21:23 tar wrote:All this whining - let the metagame evolve and see What comes up. When the sad zealots were sniffing all around the world, it was up to ONE guy called Creator to show P a way of having a strong army without the dire need for super fast aoe-tech and changed the entire match up (and at that,even before the toss upgrades got buffed). Terran players have almost exclusively used the same strats (all ins not counting) when it came to macro games. Is it a surprise that Toss players eventually adopted or better: perfected their play against that coz of learning it the hard way (i.e. getting beatn up by it for almost a year). Terran needs to evolve in it's game styles - and that includes learning to spice up one's micro: Koreans ( MKP started with that I believe) have begun to minimize losses and force FF energy via elevating units over FFs with their first 2 med vacs. I'm not saying that this is the solution to TvP but u gotta start searching for a solution instead of crying all over the place because ppl figuered out how to take ur year-old cake away...
Well the medivac elevation of bio units from FF has been happening for ages....just saying.
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Well, in my opinion TvP so called "problem" is much more complex then just "buff Terran". I guess the general understanding for most of people is: T = Z, Z > P and P > T, at least from what I can see here. But I can't find any logic in this, even more - there is no real way of dealing with it without hurting other matchups.
Everyone say that Terran needs to be buffed, but I haven't seen a single idea how should it look.
Everyone say that Protoss just a-moves Terran to death, but does anyone wonder "well, maybe I engage Protoss in a wrong way" or "maybe my unit composition isn't good enough".
From what I saw it is pretty simple - if Terran does a micro mistake, he dies. Same goes with Protoss. Yes, he has one million gateways and can warp zelots, but there is no way for gateway army to deal with MMMG. Even quick reinforcements won't help, because without AoE damage it is impossible to stop Terran army.
I have a lot of respect for Last Shadow, I believe he is one of the strongest foreign Terran players and has incredible understanding and knowledge of this game. I recommend watching his TvP vlogs and then deciding if matchup is imbalanced. What he says is that with proper control and unit composition Terran army will never lose to Protoss.
How can Terran army lose is Ghost's spells have bigger range then HT's? How can Terran army lose if obs gets scanned and killed, which allowes Ghosts to do whatever they want? Why Terrans keep making so many Marauders if they are pretty much only a meatshield for T army with much lower DPS then Marines?
Also I haven't seen anyone wonder what if the reason for this "problem" with TvP. Has there been any patches recently that changed this matchup significantly? Or maybe just Protoss players got better with fighting Terrans and it requires proper in-game reponse, not balance patch?
BTW "early and mid-game pressure" is not even close to using one or 2 base allins. It is delaying and forcing P to do stuff he does not really want to do.
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On May 04 2012 21:23 tar wrote:Terran needs to evolve in it's game styles - and that includes learning to spice up one's micro: Koreans ( MKP started with that I believe) have begun to minimize losses and force FF energy via elevating units over FFs with their first 2 med vacs. I'm not saying that this is the solution to TvP but u gotta start searching for a solution instead of crying all over the place because ppl figuered out how to take ur year-old cake away...
Great tip, stutter step requires about 100 constant APM, you only need add another 40 or so to do the split / lift / drop micro at the same time too! That's a perfectly viable solution for all leagues I guess!
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4713 Posts
On May 04 2012 21:05 howLiN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 21:03 Destructicon wrote:On May 04 2012 20:55 Nightmarez wrote:
Saying that you have to all-in or kill the protoss in the early to midgame is absurd. You have to cripple him, to do damage, which frankly isn't very hard for a terran to do early on. So, just like you're saying that it's bad design that Terrans has to cripple him early to win, is the same thing as saying Protoss has to defend vs this pressure to win. It is the matchup, get over it.
-Over and Out That's stupid, simplistic and single minded. I haven't seen a game where the terran crippled the protoss if the protoss was in a defensive posture or if the protoss hadn't commited some horrific and idiotic mistake till then. More simplistic than saying that Terran has to kill Protoss in the mid-game before the Protoss kilss the Terran in the late-game?
That is a fact of life, a reality, it may be simplified but it is accurate.
The only time I see the roles reversed is when the toss notices a opening in the terran's build order, and his own build order allows for something like an immortal bust with 3 immortals and 8-10 sentries, the rest zealots and stalkers. And this is only an option for protoss, they don't necessarily need to do it because they can equally well sit back and turtle till late game. For terran, cutting some kind of a corner or doing some damage over the course of the game is pivotal to their success and so far from optional.
@LF9
While you write a good post in theory, it doesn't really stand up in real life circumstances.
Protoss is just as strong as terran in the early or mid games right now thanks to maps. Maybe not as strong on the offensive, but definitely on the defensive, I don't think you would need to nerf terran early and mid game to buff the late game given those circumstances, unless the map pool changes significantly.
I also don't believe you can have much success if you attack the protoss over and over again, unless the protoss is an inferior player. Setting aside what I said earlier about static defenses and HT in all bases, (which by the way all protosses should do), terran executing a 2 or 3 pronged attack and microing each component of the attack is insanely hard.
All things being equal, for bio to be effective it needs to stutter step away from the protoss, otherwise it won't last long enough to do substantial damage. Stutter step controling 3 groups of units at 3 different locations is insanely hard to do. For protoss it's much simpler, he can storm, feedback and warp in units and do it faster and without having to dedicate his entire concentration to it. The terran needs to dedicate his entire focus on the drops and his main army to succeed, the protoss does not. The protoss just need to learn how to position their units in such a way as to deny drops better, the Koreans have already figured it out.
After you take out of the equation 2 and 3 pronged attacks, what is left is constant pressure. MKP duked it out with PartinG on entombed valley in the final of the GSTL, and PartinG showed the world that a protoss that is on top of his game can't be broken by even this kind of pressure, despite MKP's best efforts to dodge and split, and despite the fact that he was rallying units for 10 minutes straight he couldn't break PartinG.
You try to make a good argument, admirable, but it just doesn't stand in the face of reality, of what we are seeing in the GSL and GSTL.
Terran may be good in the early and late game, but now so is Protoss.
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I think that Terran should have another option other than MMM, that's one of the biggest problems in TvP I feel, that MMM is the ONLY composition you'll ever see because every other comp dies without a big lead in another area.
I hate watching TvP the most, the only exception is Marineking TvP, but when he loses it always feels a lot more sour, because he's been microing like a boss and still can't beat a-move zealots. In the current balance, Protoss is equal to Terran early-mid game and WAY better late-game, that is not balanced at all, because to fight early-mid game, Terran has to sacrifice a lot of economy.
More viable T3 units and a nerf to marauder would be a good patch to Terran for TvP IMO, and Zealots need some kind of nerf in TvP, as Protoss can just spawn 10+ zealots after an equal trade and win because the Terran has no splash.
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On May 04 2012 21:29 InoyouS2 wrote:
I think that Terran should have another option other than MMM, that's one of the biggest problems in TvP I feel, that MMM is the ONLY composition you'll ever see because every other comp dies without a big lead in another area.
I hate watching TvP the most, the only exception is Marineking TvP, but when he loses it always feels a lot more sour, because he's been microing like a boss and still can't beat a-move zealots. In the current balance, Protoss is equal to Terran early-mid game and WAY better late-game, that is not balanced at all, because to fight early-mid game, Terran has to sacrifice a lot of economy.
More viable T3 units and a nerf to marauder would be a good patch to Terran for TvP IMO, and Zealots need some kind of nerf in TvP, as Protoss can just spawn 10+ zealots after an equal trade and win because the Terran has no splash.
Look at BW TvP. At pro level mech is pretty much the only option- bio is just used for all-ins very occasionally yet nobody says it is a bad match up.
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If a Terran gets rolled by 10 Zealots that is a bad Terran, get up a few Marauders and Marine and kill the zealots, studdersteppin' aint that hard.
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I don't know about you guys but from reading the original post, it seems like Blizzard is basically saying "L2P noobs" to all the Terrans LOL.
They offered nothing informative, nothing we don't already know.... basically don't get to the late game against Protoss.
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On May 04 2012 21:32 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 21:29 InoyouS2 wrote:
I think that Terran should have another option other than MMM, that's one of the biggest problems in TvP I feel, that MMM is the ONLY composition you'll ever see because every other comp dies without a big lead in another area.
I hate watching TvP the most, the only exception is Marineking TvP, but when he loses it always feels a lot more sour, because he's been microing like a boss and still can't beat a-move zealots. In the current balance, Protoss is equal to Terran early-mid game and WAY better late-game, that is not balanced at all, because to fight early-mid game, Terran has to sacrifice a lot of economy.
More viable T3 units and a nerf to marauder would be a good patch to Terran for TvP IMO, and Zealots need some kind of nerf in TvP, as Protoss can just spawn 10+ zealots after an equal trade and win because the Terran has no splash. Look at BW TvP. At pro level mech is pretty much the only option- bio is just used for all-ins very occasionally yet nobody says it is a bad match up.
It's startling how much the marauder changed the matchup.
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On May 04 2012 19:12 THM wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 13:55 WeaponX.7 wrote:
Here's the problem, damage done in the early doesnt matter once both sides hit 200/200 and in that late game. So basically blizzard just told terrans that they must win before the late game. If a terran drops and kills probes and snnipes a couple tech structures but cant finish the protoss off, what difference does that play if the protoss survives and maxes out? It means nothing. I completely agree with this post. I've been 1/2base allining every game vs toss on ladder since some months now, but being told by blizzard that that is what I actually have to do to win is rather disturbing.
It means you should keep forcing engagements so P does not reach that 200/200. Maybe your style is just like what the Protoss wants, turtle to max. Then you should blame play style.
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On May 04 2012 21:28 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 21:23 tar wrote:Terran needs to evolve in it's game styles - and that includes learning to spice up one's micro: Koreans ( MKP started with that I believe) have begun to minimize losses and force FF energy via elevating units over FFs with their first 2 med vacs. I'm not saying that this is the solution to TvP but u gotta start searching for a solution instead of crying all over the place because ppl figuered out how to take ur year-old cake away... Great tip, stutter step requires about 100 constant APM, you only need add another 40 or so to do the split / lift / drop micro at the same time too! That's a perfectly viable solution for all leagues I guess!
never said that, just stating that this is a very effective way of applying early pressure to P even though FFs are available(which in this thread seems to be a major issue: defensive FFs ), without risking to lose too much.
Also, at the 2 medvac timing at the ramp u have to do the following: stimm run up the ramp, wait for FFs then
a) bad FFs: go do a lot of damage
b) elevate ur units out of there
at this point in time u do not have to stutter step since u r attacking, so focuse ur APM on something that is important at that particular time.
edit: in addition, i never meant to "solve" the match up just wanted to give an example
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What they said applies to every race I don't see why people continue to bitch and complain about this -.-. Every race needs to push and harass early/mid game or the other will clearly decimate them. Let zerg sit by for 20 minutes guess what you're up against 4+ bases w/ 20 or so broodlords have fun killing that off. Leave Terran for the same amount of time and guess what you'll get demolished by something like marine tank which is super strong (and only 2 units yet you don't hear Terran whining about that -.-). It's simple do what you're supposed to early and mid game and your opponent won't be this super "op" ball of death that mops the floor with you it applies FOR ALL RACES! -.-
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On May 04 2012 13:42 MattBarry wrote:
You know, I'm no expert on BW. I played it for a decade casually with no knowledge of a pro-scene. But from what I've read, isn't there a ticking time bomb where Terran has to do damage before Hive in TvZ. What exactly is the difference?
Not exactly as you put it. Terran has to delay the zerg's third gas or at a minimum make zerg expend a good amount of resources defending the third. In BW if terran sits back and only does macro and the zerg does the same it puts the terran in a very difficult position.
The state of TvP in SC2 is similar to BW's TvZ. Mind you, despite the match hinging upon both player's performance in the crucial 3rd gas battle, TvZ in BW is by and large considered the greatest matchup ever.
Basically a completely standard 1 rax expand vs 3 hatch muta game goes this way (note 3rd hatch is in main or at an easily defended mineral only expo, not at another gas expo):
Opening
Terran pushes out with a small mnm force to force zerg to put up sunkens at natural.
Terran retreats, puts up turrets, decides to either go for a 4-5 rax heavy mm play OR goes 2 rax tech.
In either situation zerg takes a 3rd gas expansion and begins rushing for lurkers to defend it.
Terran pushes the 3rd expansion.
If Terran takes down the 3rd, it's more or less game over for zerg.
If Zerg handily dispatches the terran push, it's more or less game over for terran.
If Terran and Zerg trade forces while the terran gets ready to take a 3rd of his own, game is more or less even.
From there the "typical tvz" diverges far to much for me to even pretend that I could describe it.
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