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TvP Lategame comment from Blizzard - Page 22

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Mayd
Profile Joined August 2011
Finland251 Posts
May 04 2012 12:38 GMT
#421
Once all the protoss start mastering the Parting style I think pvt win ratio is going to be near 100 %.
유리 | 티파니 | 리지
A-p-p-l-e-s
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada314 Posts
May 04 2012 12:39 GMT
#422
Protoss does require a lot of micro too. What a lot of people here are saying is that terran has to micro and protoss just A attacks but in reality both races need to micro to win. You have to storm, move collusus back zealots to the front etc.
xsnac
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Barbados1365 Posts
May 04 2012 12:42 GMT
#423
On May 04 2012 13:48 Icekommander wrote:
I don't see the issue. The races are different, at a fight happens at any given point at time during a game between two equally skilled players, one will win more often than the other. The races actually can't be equally balanced at every point in the game due to how unit interactions work. You might as well complain that it isn't fair or right that in a TvT a meching Terran has an advantage in the late game over a bio terran. Your bio ball didn't do enough harassment, or you didn't take over the map properly. If you feel that Mech is better or suits your style better you should switch - same thing with Terran and Protoss. The races are different, and it is something you have to live with.



this .

pvt was always hard for last 2 years for all protoss around the world , suddenly 1 gsl season protoss start wining and all terrans say game is imba , are you kidding me ? then how 2 years we always lost ?
1/4 \pi \epsilon_0
Destructicon
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
4713 Posts
May 04 2012 12:43 GMT
#424
On May 04 2012 21:21 mcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 04 2012 21:03 Destructicon wrote:
On May 04 2012 20:55 Nightmarez wrote:
Saying that you have to all-in or kill the protoss in the early to midgame is absurd. You have to cripple him, to do damage, which frankly isn't very hard for a terran to do early on. So, just like you're saying that it's bad design that Terrans has to cripple him early to win, is the same thing as saying Protoss has to defend vs this pressure to win. It is the matchup, get over it.

-Over and Out


That's stupid, simplistic and single minded. I haven't seen a game where the terran crippled the protoss if the protoss was in a defensive posture or if the protoss hadn't commited some horrific and idiotic mistake till then.

Quite frankly the MU is already dull given the fact that most protosses prefer in some way or another to turtle up until the point they feel they have an advantage, then press it.

The game should be equally back and forth, the terran should have an option to turtle till he gets a strong comp and the protoss should feel the need to stop him somehow or have the choice to tech up as well.

At the moment some of those options don't exist, and it makes the MU predictable, the question boils down to how will the terran try to cheese the protoss? Will it be a early game timing, a mid game timing, or an economic cheese? And for the protoss it boils down to, can he survive long enough to make use of his late game advantage?

Just because the MU is the way it is now doesn't mean we can and should accept it, deal with it.

There is no economic cheese, it is called being greedy. Timings are also not cheese. And the rest is your opinions. Why should the game be back and forth equally, did you notice it is not a mirror matchup ? Matchup being dull has nothing to do with the supposedly too strong protoss lategame. It being dull has nothing to do with balance which is what Blizzard was talking about.


Making terran making 2 early CCs, sometimes an hidden one, you call it greed, I call it economic cheese, its basically the same thing, agreed timings aren't cheese, just trying to make the point that terran either tries to cut corners if possible or just tries to do damage.

And it being dull has everything to do with balance.
Notice how TvT is one of the most well liked of match ups. Yes it is a mirror match up, but it has a very wide array of possible strategies, one base play, or one base into two base play, macro games, different viable compositions, bio, bio-mech or mech, tons of different ways to harass, strong positional elements and very cool late game.

Balance has everything to do with TvP also being dull, I'll say it again for the last time. If one race is forced into attacking or greed in the early and mid game to eek out an advantage and one race is forced in the defensive for the same duration so it can almost certainly win in the late game, then the game becomes dull and predictable.

It becomes a question of "what cheese will the terran use, or what corner will he cut?", while for the protoss it becomes "how well can he deal with his greed/cheese to be able to survive relatively intact till the late game?".

If you can't see the benefit and beauty of both players having near equal choices in both attack and defense in all stages of the game then you are hopeless.

This has everything to do with balance, because balance, at any time of the game, dictates of people will play, and weather that play is fun or not.
WriterNever give up, never surrender! https://www.youtube.com/user/DestructiconSC
Aeroplaneoverthesea
Profile Joined April 2012
United Kingdom1977 Posts
May 04 2012 12:43 GMT
#425
On May 04 2012 21:38 Mayd wrote:
Once all the protoss start mastering the Parting style I think pvt win ratio is going to be near 100 %.


What a ridiculous prediction.
pOnarreT
Profile Joined March 2012
155 Posts
May 04 2012 12:45 GMT
#426
Ugh... all this Terran whining is disgusting... why not just have Terrans what they want so they would shut up? Im all for the challenge anyway, even if I keep losing, i'll figure something out or practice what I need to do to win, as the pros do, and not have an attitude of "whine about it even though i haven't achieved the highest possible level of play play meaning there are things that I could improve which might make me win instead of blaming the other races"
Destructicon
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
4713 Posts
May 04 2012 12:45 GMT
#427
On May 04 2012 21:42 xsnac wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 04 2012 13:48 Icekommander wrote:
I don't see the issue. The races are different, at a fight happens at any given point at time during a game between two equally skilled players, one will win more often than the other. The races actually can't be equally balanced at every point in the game due to how unit interactions work. You might as well complain that it isn't fair or right that in a TvT a meching Terran has an advantage in the late game over a bio terran. Your bio ball didn't do enough harassment, or you didn't take over the map properly. If you feel that Mech is better or suits your style better you should switch - same thing with Terran and Protoss. The races are different, and it is something you have to live with.



this .

pvt was always hard for last 2 years for all protoss around the world , suddenly 1 gsl season protoss start wining and all terrans say game is imba , are you kidding me ? then how 2 years we always lost ?


TvP hasn't always had the same balance for 2 years. Both races where changed over the course of time, and lastly the maps where made to favor protoss more. Its rather easy to explain and understand.
WriterNever give up, never surrender! https://www.youtube.com/user/DestructiconSC
scypio
Profile Joined December 2011
Poland2127 Posts
May 04 2012 12:45 GMT
#428
On May 04 2012 21:35 tar wrote:
never said that, just stating that this is a very effective way of applying early pressure to P even though FFs are available(which in this thread seems to be a major issue: defensive FFs ), without risking to lose too much.
Also, at the 2 medvac timing at the ramp u have to do the following: stimm run up the ramp, wait for FFs then

a) bad FFs: go do a lot of damage
b) elevate ur units out of there

at this point in time u do not have to stutter step since u r attacking, so focuse ur APM on something that is important at that particular time.


Ok, that seems reasonable. But I would assume good forcefields so... you lift your bio, run away and do no damege apart from eating up some sentry energy. And this is what toss wants you to do.

Hopefully the toss still has stalkers in the main, cause if you can't spot and kill the obs you might loose medivacs during that little ninja poke too.

So I don't think it is all that much different from the "please dear toss turtle badly in the midgame" approach.
I play random | I like Hots | INnoVation | sOs | Tefel TOP1!
M7Jagger
Profile Joined March 2012
Sweden237 Posts
May 04 2012 12:46 GMT
#429
I think they need to nerf storm, storm is way to powerful imo. Or maybe we have come to that point where the metagame has to change, where MMM/G/V wont do it anymore.
Brace your're selves. Grammar, nazis are Coming
Bodzilla
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia472 Posts
May 04 2012 12:48 GMT
#430
i'd be content to have terran go into the late game stronger if they agree to give up 90% of their mid game and opening options.

but people wont agree to that, they'll just bitch and moan about the small percentage of play we're they're behind, rather then admit theres areas in the game where they have a significant advantage.
when life gives you lemons, make banelings
tomatriedes
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
New Zealand5356 Posts
May 04 2012 12:49 GMT
#431
On May 04 2012 21:38 Mayd wrote:
Once all the protoss start mastering the Parting style I think pvt win ratio is going to be near 100 %.


Yes because all protoss are capable of playing as well as Parting. And, for your information Parting doesn't do exactly the same build every game either.
tar
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany991 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-04 12:52:15
May 04 2012 12:50 GMT
#432
On May 04 2012 21:45 scypio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 04 2012 21:35 tar wrote:
never said that, just stating that this is a very effective way of applying early pressure to P even though FFs are available(which in this thread seems to be a major issue: defensive FFs ), without risking to lose too much.
Also, at the 2 medvac timing at the ramp u have to do the following: stimm run up the ramp, wait for FFs then

a) bad FFs: go do a lot of damage
b) elevate ur units out of there

at this point in time u do not have to stutter step since u r attacking, so focuse ur APM on something that is important at that particular time.


Ok, that seems reasonable. But I would assume good forcefields so... you lift your bio, run away and do no damege apart from eating up some sentry energy. And this is what toss wants you to do.

Hopefully the toss still has stalkers in the main, cause if you can't spot and kill the obs you might loose medivacs during that little ninja poke too.

So I don't think it is all that much different from the "please dear toss turtle badly in the midgame" approach.




as stated above: I just wanted to give an example on how to improve and what has actually begun to change.
In diamond I almost exclusively see ppl just leaving their units behind FFs to die while retreating with the rest of the army when good FFs were placed. Sure u can approach it that way but then u r not playinbg efficiently: as grubby puts it: "Every unit counts"
whoever I pick for my anti team turns gosu
league
Profile Joined January 2012
Peru58 Posts
May 04 2012 12:51 GMT
#433
On May 04 2012 21:45 pOnarreT wrote:
Ugh... all this Terran whining is disgusting... why not just have Terrans what they want so they would shut up? Im all for the challenge anyway, even if I keep losing, i'll figure something out or practice what I need to do to win, as the pros do, and not have an attitude of "whine about it even though i haven't achieved the highest possible level of play play meaning there are things that I could improve which might make me win instead of blaming the other races"



I concur
Soulforged
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Latvia918 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-04 12:53:23
May 04 2012 12:51 GMT
#434
I'll take TvP lategame in SC2 in a 5base vs 3 situation(P heavy on ups, colossi/HT), over PvT lategame in BW in a 5base vs 3 situation(heavy ups, good vessel control, gay map); any day.
There has been plenty pro games in BW on 2 player maps, where terran takes 4 bases, protoss takes 5(with 5th faster than terrans 4th), and is unable to attack anywhere(the last free expansion on the map is too close to terran line, and there is too much turrets/vessels to try any carrier or arbiter play). Inefficient trading also not a solution, as there's nowhere to expand further. I mean some games on Match Point and HBR.
At least in SC2 your initial army is guaranteed to kill a decent amount of stuff after first engagement + sac'ing workers for more supply is much more viable thanks to OCs. That, and ghosts are actually really good, even post-nerf.

The mid-game advantage that terran gets doesn't have to come in form of damage dealt...it can be an economy lead. Even if the opponent grabs his 3rd with the least units possible, while playing defensive - you still can abuse it by being greedy.
Match gets harder if the map allows for a very easy 3rd base; but that's not often the case + there are map features that favor terran, too.
blackberry_
Profile Joined September 2011
114 Posts
May 04 2012 12:52 GMT
#435
I've always had a ridiculously difficult time playing against late-game toss... I guess it is now "mandatory" to cripple them before entering the late game... or we die... or something like that.

Speaks poorly of game design :/

But that's okay. I mean, I'm going to keep playing SC2...

Time for early game shenanigans... The age of refined Terran queso is upon us!
Live your life.
pOnarreT
Profile Joined March 2012
155 Posts
May 04 2012 12:52 GMT
#436
On May 04 2012 21:43 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 04 2012 21:38 Mayd wrote:
Once all the protoss start mastering the Parting style I think pvt win ratio is going to be near 100 %.


What a ridiculous prediction.



It's not ridiculous, it's idiotic
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
May 04 2012 12:52 GMT
#437
On May 04 2012 21:17 Ccx55 wrote:
Well, here we go again with another stupid opinion from Blizzard based off of nothing.
They're saying that they intentionally want the terran to concentrate on mid-game and protoss on late-game.

So what if the protoss wants to push mid-game? Or what if the terran wants to go mass expand? They can go f*ck themselves, then? Is that your opinion on the matter, Blizzard?

Sorry for my language, I'm just really frustrated about how Blizzard is steering this game. I say this as a Zerg player, too.

And your opinion is based on something ? And what if terrans want to build broodlords, stupid Blizzard preventing them from that ?
cosimorondo
Profile Joined November 2010
United States78 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-04 12:53:25
May 04 2012 12:52 GMT
#438
I really LOVE blizzard's stance on this. It's just the way things are and it's just the way things should be, otherwise, as they very clearly state in the response, the game would just be one BIG mirror match. PEOPLE please stop with the knee jerk complaints about anything blizzard says.
vthree
Profile Joined November 2011
Hong Kong8039 Posts
May 04 2012 12:53 GMT
#439
It depend what is meant by proper 'controls'. First of all, no one controls perfectly. Not MKP, not Flash, not JD...Although they can come close in certain situation. But as game moves to late game, this becomes harder and harder due to the number of units and having to macro. Because if someone HAD perfect control, mass speedlings would kill tank marine. Or one upgraded pheonix can kill a muta ball by kiting... So we can't just say well, if the Terran does these 1,2,3,4,5 things, they would win. We have to look at what their opponents have to do to counter. And when the effort from 2 sides are similar. I am not saying they have to be equal at all times since that is impossible. But don't make it so that one race requires 100 more apm.

What if we made it so charge wasn't automatic and needed to be activated. And if no units in range or blocked, it would still go off and be on cool down. Make it so Protoss need to charge with the front line zealots. And if he presses charge on whole army, they all charge but only the front ones hit marines and all the others would need to wait for cool down before charging again? Would make mech slightly more viable as well...
Alexstrasas
Profile Joined August 2010
302 Posts
May 04 2012 12:55 GMT
#440
On May 04 2012 21:39 A-p-p-l-e-s wrote:
Protoss does require a lot of micro too. What a lot of people here are saying is that terran has to micro and protoss just A attacks but in reality both races need to micro to win. You have to storm, move collusus back zealots to the front etc.


You have to storm, move collusus back and zealots to the front? You serious bro?

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