EPTOn May 04 2012 22:11 pOnarreT wrote:
You guys must not have yet heard of the 1/1/1
You guys must not have yet heard of the 1/1/1
You must have missed the huge map pool changes.
TvP Lategame comment from Blizzard - Page 24
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
You must have missed the huge map pool changes. | ||
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aNaZnBabO
United States59 Posts
On May 04 2012 22:17 See.Blue wrote: Oh man, somebody gets it. This is exactly it, and its totally OK. Honestly I think terran metagame has stagnated, and why should it have kept developing when they were so dominant for so long. Similar to how when the huge WG nerf hit, protoss had to go and reinvent their race's gameplay, terran may have some soul searching to do. That said, there are enough great terran pros I have faith. ill only have faith if smaller maps return with bigger chokes and ramps. blink stalkers + forcefield ramps man.... that crap screws up any mid game aggression ur going for unless the toss just rushes for colossi with a quick 3rd. | ||
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Ccx55
Sweden62 Posts
On May 04 2012 21:52 mcc wrote: And your opinion is based on something ? And what if terrans want to build broodlords, stupid Blizzard preventing them from that ? ??? Sorry, did you just get off elementary school? What you've just said is completely irrelevant. I said that Blizzard intentionally gave terran the late-game disadvantage. How the hell is that, in ANY way, me asking for Blizzard to give terran brood lords? Your logic is completely flawed. And my opinion is based on Blizzard's slow and incompetent problem-"solving". | ||
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
On May 04 2012 22:05 SarcasmMonster wrote: So mirror matches all day and everyday? Brood war somehow manages to make it interesting for every race late game. Why can't SC2? Is it fun to know that if the game goes on past 15 minutes, you can basically turn off the stream and go do something else? Is that good for esports? | ||
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
On May 04 2012 22:14 TMOUllrich wrote: This the problem with people reading blizzards statement about terran being stronger midgame and weaker lategame ... suddenly everyone makes up values in their head ... oh look they say it's ok to have a 20% winrate ! I think everyone agrees that 20% would be the most retarded percentage to aim for ... something like 48-49% against 51%-52% with the roles reversed in the midgame is perfectly fine. But damn no, because I play terran it must be 20% ! not 49%, yup definetly 20%, that's totally what blizzard just said ... no question ... Too bad Blizzard doesn't give winrates based on game length. Or player skill. So their statistic is just as meaningless as mine. | ||
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Alexstrasas
302 Posts
Dont strain yourself | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
For comparison's sake, look at PvZ and TvZ: in both cases, Zerg is stronger in the lategame. But guess what? If you gave Terrans and Protoss's their "true" lategame composition (i.e. Void Ray/Carrier/Archon/Colossus/Stalker or something ridiculous) then there wouldn't be a problem at all walking over BL/Infestor. The fact is, though, that you simply can't do this in a real game because teching in Sc2 is all about teching safely, and there's no way to safely tech to Carriers until it's too late. The reason Terran players are losing in the lategame is twofold: first, it's because the average mid-Masters Terran thinks he's MKP, whines about Protoss being too easy to micro, and sucks at micro himself. Unless you are top GM or a professional player, you are not some god of micro who's only losing games because of Protoss. Stutter stepping is not difficult or indicative of one's ability to micro. Splitting Marines can be, but it depends on the context. I see so many Terran players suiciding Ghosts on the ladder, or completely failing to macro because they're trying to be cute with Vikings. Until you stop doing things like this, stop complaining that Protoss doesn't have to micro enough, because you're nowhere near the ceiling for micro with your own race. Second, Terran players on ladder (in my experience in NA Masters) don't macro well. They try to do a Medivac timing (which is fine) but they overcommit and get behind without even realizing it. From there, they can stay in the game just by producing well and trying to drop, but for the love of God: when it's 20 minutes in, you need to have more than 12 Barracks. This baffles me to no end. You complain that Protoss can warp in 25 Chargelots, but you refuse to make more than half that number of Raxes? Sorry, that's not going to cut it, especially when you live or die based on how fast you can reinforce. The best style of TvP is to 1rax FE into a Medivac timing which doesn't over-commit or sacrifice upgrades. From there, you should be aiming for a high Ghost count lategame so that if you trade well, you'll have 5-6 EMPs left after the battle, enabling your reinforcements to easily mop up the Chargelot/Archon warpin. | ||
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Garmer
1286 Posts
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CyDe
United States1010 Posts
 But then there hits this point where I just feel SO powerless. I feel like I might as well just leave the game if my first two pushes fail. I feel like there is no way I can possibly win a game with my kind of micro. It just sucks, and really isn't fun. I would be fine if I had to go ahead and play HARDER after a certain point, but I just feel like no matter hard I play it won't make a difference. I'm sure there are protoss who feel the same about early/ midgame against terran. I am not asking to be equal with protoss in late game. I'm just asking to be able to see a light at the end of the tunnel. Because really in "late game" terran, there is nothing to work towards. No great T3 unit. Just upgrades for your MMMVG. Yay, how fun  | ||
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SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
On May 04 2012 22:22 Sadistx wrote: Brood war somehow manages to make it interesting for every race late game. Why can't SC2? Is it fun to know that if the game goes on past 15 minutes, you can basically turn off the stream and go do something else? Is that good for esports? It's funny you bring up Broodwar since it was also asymmetric. For example, what's early game TvP like in Broodwar? Well, Protoss has enormous advantage because Zealot + Dragoons are going to kill your Marines, no problem. So you are forced to turtle on 2 bases behind bunkers and wait till your first siege tank with siege mode comes out to shoo off the Dragoons away from your front door. Terran can't do shit against Protoss early game. The asymmetry makes the races in Broodwar interesting and definitely not "retarded". That said, TvP in SC2 is currently bad but don't blame it on asymmetry. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On May 04 2012 22:22 Ccx55 wrote: ??? Sorry, did you just get off elementary school? What you've just said is completely irrelevant. I said that Blizzard intentionally gave terran the late-game disadvantage. How the hell is that, in ANY way, me asking for Blizzard to give terran brood lords? Your logic is completely flawed. And my opinion is based on Blizzard's slow and incompetent problem-"solving". Nice of you in your righteous anger to miss the point. You said : "So what if the protoss wants to push mid-game? Or what if the terran wants to go mass expand?". This implies that you want nothing to constraint what the races can do and I took it to the absurd, but logical conclusion. The point is that there are things Blizzard decided that races should not be able to do, otherwise there is no point of having 3 races. The races should not just be different in the units they can build, but also how you are playing them in different phases of the game. They are also not saying that they gave terran lategame disadvantage. They said that if terrans do not play correctly in the midgame they will have disadvantage in the lategame. That is completely different from what you are attributing them. | ||
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pOnarreT
155 Posts
On May 04 2012 22:19 scypio wrote: You must have missed the huge map pool changes. You must have missed that only 3 new maps were added which in anyway, have seen VODs of pro in ladder games still use 1/1/1 to success | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
We do agree that if both sides take few to no losses going into the late game, protoss can have an advantage. That said, we also know that terran players have a lot of offensive capability and harassment options at their fingertips in the mid-game. If terran players press that mid-game advantage, then protoss can’t necessarily get into the late game at their full potential, which can nullify any advantage they might have had. So, pressing that mid-game advantage is important (just as it would be important for protoss players to mitigate mid-game damage so they can to move into the late game in the strongest possible position). Ultimately, each game plays out differently, and depending on how the two races enter the late game, each side has a fair chance to win. OP: I think many people here regardless of race can agree with an ideal scenario of every race being balanced at every point in the game, and no race should have to do midgame allins and be on a timer. Did you even read? Like all-ins are the only option. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On May 04 2012 22:22 Sadistx wrote: Brood war somehow manages to make it interesting for every race late game. Why can't SC2? Is it fun to know that if the game goes on past 15 minutes, you can basically turn off the stream and go do something else? Is that good for esports? Where did you get that statement from ? Are you saying that after 15 minutes terrans are in a disadvantage ? Even if you could argue that (which I doubt) the best you could do is argue that terrans on equal bases and equal bank are at disadvantage. Why should we assume that terrans are supposed to be on equal bases ? Or are you arguing that matchup is not as interesting as its BW counterpart ? I would agree with that, but that has not much to do with balance and Blizzard's post really. | ||
Destructicon
4713 Posts
On May 04 2012 22:25 Shiori wrote: Similarly, I have yet to see a PvT where a Protoss is maxed on Archon/Colossus/Templar/Stalker with a complement of Chargelots and the Terran has actually made even the slightest effort to do anything all game. You should really watch more of the GSL/GSTL and maybe some more international tournaments, because I see those compositions quite often now a days. And no one is discussing his ladder experiences, I am not because they are irrelevant. What I am discussing, and hopefuly the other posters too, is what they notice happening at the highest level of play, in the GSL, GSTL and in international tournaments that involve lots of Koreans. I think you have some catching up to do on the scene. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On May 04 2012 22:35 Destructicon wrote: You should really watch more of the GSL/GSTL and maybe some more international tournaments, because I see those compositions quite often now a days. And no one is discussing his ladder experiences, I am not because they are irrelevant. What I am discussing, and hopefuly the other posters too, is what they notice happening at the highest level of play, in the GSL, GSTL and in international tournaments that involve lots of Koreans. I think you have some catching up to do on the scene. Very few GSL level Terrans play a turtl-ey style, so no, I don't think there are many games like that at all. I mean really, just go watch MKP play against Protoss. He wins often enough for the matchup to seem balanced for me. The only Protoss that can regularly contest him is Parting, and Parting is a god, so... | ||
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owlofhell
17 Posts
The reason Terran players are losing in the lategame is twofold: first, it's because the average mid-Masters Terran thinks he's MKP, whines about Protoss being too easy to micro, and sucks at micro himself. Unless you are top GM or a professional player, you are not some god of micro who's only losing games because of Protoss. Stutter stepping is not difficult or indicative of one's ability to micro. Splitting Marines can be, but it depends on the context. I see so many Terran players suiciding Ghosts on the ladder, or completely failing to macro because they're trying to be cute with Vikings. Until you stop doing things like this, stop complaining that Protoss doesn't have to micro enough, because you're nowhere near the ceiling for micro with your own race. Second, Terran players on ladder (in my experience in NA Masters) don't macro well. They try to do a Medivac timing (which is fine) but they overcommit and get behind without even realizing it. From there, they can stay in the game just by producing well and trying to drop, but for the love of God: when it's 20 minutes in, you need to have more than 12 Barracks. This baffles me to no end. You complain that Protoss can warp in 25 Chargelots, but you refuse to make more than half that number of Raxes? Sorry, that's not going to cut it, especially when you live or die based on how fast you can reinforce. What are you trying to say here? I seriously can't understand whats your point is. | ||
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ntssauce
Germany750 Posts
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On May 04 2012 22:38 owlofhell wrote: What are you trying to say here? I seriously can't understand whats your point is. My point is "play better." At the top pro level, Terrans beat Protoss quite consistently. On ladder, Terrans (in this thread and others) have complained that they're microing their hearts out and the Protoss is just a-moving. This is false and shouldn't be perpetuated anymore. | ||
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DerFreemind
Germany45 Posts
On May 04 2012 22:08 Destructicon wrote: True, but only partially. Protoss does require micro, but the amount requires for the terran is greater. Lets take a typical engagement with the standard composition for both race. Zealots need to be in front, stalkers at the back, colossus at around the middle and HT scattered towards the mid flanks and back. For terran, marauders more towards the front with marines mixed in, vikings hovering overhead, near cliffs or chasms and poking at colossus, ghosts near the front ready to cloak and EMP. That is pre battle positional micro it should take some juggling of the control groups, both need to do this equally so no problem here, the real issue is in battle micro. Terran has to constantly stutter step back, if they don't stutter step the army gets destroyed by zealots, and they take the full force of colossus and storm damage. Zealots charge in then you forget about them, charge is auto-cast, once its done you don't need to insert additional micro for it to be successful. If you mess it up by having stalkers in front you can blink the stalkers back. Protoss FF, and forgets about them. After protoss FF he doesn't need to do anything else with them, they are fire and forget, the terran on the other hand has to use some of his micro, while kiting to save his units, or sacrifice them. Protoss uses Guardian shield. No additional input required, the spell is again fire and forget, it helps units around it and if you are chasing the opponents army your units will always be under it, not applicable for late game though. Protoss storms and morphs HT into an archon. Storm is again fire and forget in some cases a single one can change the tide of a battle. After a storm lands however the terran must use more of his APM to also split or dodge, while he was already stutter stepping, managing ghosts, vikings and trying to save units from FF. Terran EMPs. Not as big a problem as you might imagine, shields without upgrades actually don't give a lot of survivability, apart from the stalker and archon the other protoss units have a HP to Shield ratio of 2/3 to 1/3. So EMP has an effective limit, while storm deals damage directly to the HP and there is no limit to the terran eating storms one after another (don't stack on top of each other, but they do back to back). While terran is EMPing he is also stutter stepping, splitting and moving vikings. The crucial things EMP needs to hit are sentries and/or HT. Sentries should be in limited number in late game armies because FF at that point just messes zealots up more then it helps. So HT are the prio. From what I've seen if the toss splits his HT in 3-4 groups, comes in and storms after he engages, it becomes nearly impossible to prevent at least one storm from going off. Terran uses vikings to snipe colossus, protoss responds by moving colossus back and focus firing with stalkers. This considering what little else the protoss has to do since most of his units or spells are fire and forget, then this shouldn't be too hard to do. Don't forget during this time the terran is still kiting, stutter stepping, splitting, trying to EMP and also manage his vikings. Yes I agree protoss has things they need to do, but given how many fire and forget units/ abilities they have and given how APM intensive terran is during battles I hope you really don't believe they are equal. dont forget while that all is happening, you should macro! Yeah of course terran can queue up the units, but in reality 200vs.200 "dance" as a terran player you are on the "edge". One misclick or bad engagement and you are dead! So what happens, as you fight is starting, allyou focus is going into the fight. If you do it all right, after the battle you realise that there are no reinforcments, but 30 fresh warped in charge 3/3 zealots. So toss doesent have to macro as the fight is happening, the terran has to or he is dead. | ||
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