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On May 04 2012 22:25 Shiori wrote:
A lot of people here are misunderstanding what Blizzard is saying. They're not saying that Protoss has an advantage as games go longer. They're saying that if you started up Sc2 and loaded up a game where both players just start maxed out on their best comps on 5 bases, Protoss has an advantage. These two things are very different. Why? Because in a real game you can't just blindly pursue your lategame composition; you need to deal with the other two thirds of the game. It's like discussing whether 200/200 Void Ray is overpowered. Who cares? It's inconceivable that anyone would ever get it. Similarly, I have yet to see a PvT where a Protoss is maxed on Archon/Colossus/Templar/Stalker with a complement of Chargelots and the Terran has actually made even the slightest effort to do anything all game.
For comparison's sake, look at PvZ and TvZ: in both cases, Zerg is stronger in the lategame. But guess what? If you gave Terrans and Protoss's their "true" lategame composition (i.e. Void Ray/Carrier/Archon/Colossus/Stalker or something ridiculous) then there wouldn't be a problem at all walking over BL/Infestor. The fact is, though, that you simply can't do this in a real game because teching in Sc2 is all about teching safely, and there's no way to safely tech to Carriers until it's too late.
The reason Terran players are losing in the lategame is twofold: first, it's because the average mid-Masters Terran thinks he's MKP, whines about Protoss being too easy to micro, and sucks at micro himself. Unless you are top GM or a professional player, you are not some god of micro who's only losing games because of Protoss. Stutter stepping is not difficult or indicative of one's ability to micro. Splitting Marines can be, but it depends on the context. I see so many Terran players suiciding Ghosts on the ladder, or completely failing to macro because they're trying to be cute with Vikings. Until you stop doing things like this, stop complaining that Protoss doesn't have to micro enough, because you're nowhere near the ceiling for micro with your own race.
Second, Terran players on ladder (in my experience in NA Masters) don't macro well. They try to do a Medivac timing (which is fine) but they overcommit and get behind without even realizing it. From there, they can stay in the game just by producing well and trying to drop, but for the love of God: when it's 20 minutes in, you need to have more than 12 Barracks. This baffles me to no end. You complain that Protoss can warp in 25 Chargelots, but you refuse to make more than half that number of Raxes? Sorry, that's not going to cut it, especially when you live or die based on how fast you can reinforce.
The best style of TvP is to 1rax FE into a Medivac timing which doesn't over-commit or sacrifice upgrades. From there, you should be aiming for a high Ghost count lategame so that if you trade well, you'll have 5-6 EMPs left after the battle, enabling your reinforcements to easily mop up the Chargelot/Archon warpin.
i bet you begin to play on korean ladder and see what happend ...... ,i would say eventhough you macro well enough but in the end you will lose in late game situation.
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I think TvP is a match up for where the terran wants to do as much damage as possible in the early-mid so they can have a chance in the late game. A 3 base toss with 12 warpgates is soo hard to beat
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its much easier for terran than for protoss to go into the lategame with an advantage, thats what blizzard means. if both players just do nothing and it gets to lategame Protoss has the edge.
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On May 04 2012 22:41 nOondn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 22:25 Shiori wrote:
A lot of people here are misunderstanding what Blizzard is saying. They're not saying that Protoss has an advantage as games go longer. They're saying that if you started up Sc2 and loaded up a game where both players just start maxed out on their best comps on 5 bases, Protoss has an advantage. These two things are very different. Why? Because in a real game you can't just blindly pursue your lategame composition; you need to deal with the other two thirds of the game. It's like discussing whether 200/200 Void Ray is overpowered. Who cares? It's inconceivable that anyone would ever get it. Similarly, I have yet to see a PvT where a Protoss is maxed on Archon/Colossus/Templar/Stalker with a complement of Chargelots and the Terran has actually made even the slightest effort to do anything all game.
For comparison's sake, look at PvZ and TvZ: in both cases, Zerg is stronger in the lategame. But guess what? If you gave Terrans and Protoss's their "true" lategame composition (i.e. Void Ray/Carrier/Archon/Colossus/Stalker or something ridiculous) then there wouldn't be a problem at all walking over BL/Infestor. The fact is, though, that you simply can't do this in a real game because teching in Sc2 is all about teching safely, and there's no way to safely tech to Carriers until it's too late.
The reason Terran players are losing in the lategame is twofold: first, it's because the average mid-Masters Terran thinks he's MKP, whines about Protoss being too easy to micro, and sucks at micro himself. Unless you are top GM or a professional player, you are not some god of micro who's only losing games because of Protoss. Stutter stepping is not difficult or indicative of one's ability to micro. Splitting Marines can be, but it depends on the context. I see so many Terran players suiciding Ghosts on the ladder, or completely failing to macro because they're trying to be cute with Vikings. Until you stop doing things like this, stop complaining that Protoss doesn't have to micro enough, because you're nowhere near the ceiling for micro with your own race.
Second, Terran players on ladder (in my experience in NA Masters) don't macro well. They try to do a Medivac timing (which is fine) but they overcommit and get behind without even realizing it. From there, they can stay in the game just by producing well and trying to drop, but for the love of God: when it's 20 minutes in, you need to have more than 12 Barracks. This baffles me to no end. You complain that Protoss can warp in 25 Chargelots, but you refuse to make more than half that number of Raxes? Sorry, that's not going to cut it, especially when you live or die based on how fast you can reinforce.
The best style of TvP is to 1rax FE into a Medivac timing which doesn't over-commit or sacrifice upgrades. From there, you should be aiming for a high Ghost count lategame so that if you trade well, you'll have 5-6 EMPs left after the battle, enabling your reinforcements to easily mop up the Chargelot/Archon warpin.
i bet you begin to play on lorean ladder and see what happend ...... ,i would say eventhough you macro well enough but in the end you will lose in late game situation.
Sure, I probably would. I don't claim to be a pro player. When I lose games, it's because I played worse than my opponent. I'm sick of ladder Terrans (i.e. most of this forum) complaining about how they lost to some "terrible" Protoss on ladder. That's the root of all this QQ and everyone knows it. If one looks at the professional scene, there's anything but a tradition of Protoss dominance against Terran. Seriously, aside from this season of the GSL, where is Protoss destroying Terran? I mean, the last buff to Protoss was awhile ago, so I'm curious as to why one season of GSL suddenly means Toss is imbalanced, despite Terrans collecting wins fairly well at other tournaments.
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On May 04 2012 22:43 Kaitokid wrote:
its much easier for terran than for protoss to go into the lategame with an advantage, thats what blizzard means. if both players just do nothing and it gets to lategame Protoss has the edge.
Which is exactly the same way that PvZ and TvZ work, except Terran against Protoss has a better ability to harass than Protoss against Zerg, and in the midgame Zerg has significantly better map control than Terran.
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Asymmetric design, I really like this principle.
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On May 04 2012 22:43 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 22:41 nOondn wrote:On May 04 2012 22:25 Shiori wrote:
A lot of people here are misunderstanding what Blizzard is saying. They're not saying that Protoss has an advantage as games go longer. They're saying that if you started up Sc2 and loaded up a game where both players just start maxed out on their best comps on 5 bases, Protoss has an advantage. These two things are very different. Why? Because in a real game you can't just blindly pursue your lategame composition; you need to deal with the other two thirds of the game. It's like discussing whether 200/200 Void Ray is overpowered. Who cares? It's inconceivable that anyone would ever get it. Similarly, I have yet to see a PvT where a Protoss is maxed on Archon/Colossus/Templar/Stalker with a complement of Chargelots and the Terran has actually made even the slightest effort to do anything all game.
For comparison's sake, look at PvZ and TvZ: in both cases, Zerg is stronger in the lategame. But guess what? If you gave Terrans and Protoss's their "true" lategame composition (i.e. Void Ray/Carrier/Archon/Colossus/Stalker or something ridiculous) then there wouldn't be a problem at all walking over BL/Infestor. The fact is, though, that you simply can't do this in a real game because teching in Sc2 is all about teching safely, and there's no way to safely tech to Carriers until it's too late.
The reason Terran players are losing in the lategame is twofold: first, it's because the average mid-Masters Terran thinks he's MKP, whines about Protoss being too easy to micro, and sucks at micro himself. Unless you are top GM or a professional player, you are not some god of micro who's only losing games because of Protoss. Stutter stepping is not difficult or indicative of one's ability to micro. Splitting Marines can be, but it depends on the context. I see so many Terran players suiciding Ghosts on the ladder, or completely failing to macro because they're trying to be cute with Vikings. Until you stop doing things like this, stop complaining that Protoss doesn't have to micro enough, because you're nowhere near the ceiling for micro with your own race.
Second, Terran players on ladder (in my experience in NA Masters) don't macro well. They try to do a Medivac timing (which is fine) but they overcommit and get behind without even realizing it. From there, they can stay in the game just by producing well and trying to drop, but for the love of God: when it's 20 minutes in, you need to have more than 12 Barracks. This baffles me to no end. You complain that Protoss can warp in 25 Chargelots, but you refuse to make more than half that number of Raxes? Sorry, that's not going to cut it, especially when you live or die based on how fast you can reinforce.
The best style of TvP is to 1rax FE into a Medivac timing which doesn't over-commit or sacrifice upgrades. From there, you should be aiming for a high Ghost count lategame so that if you trade well, you'll have 5-6 EMPs left after the battle, enabling your reinforcements to easily mop up the Chargelot/Archon warpin.
i bet you begin to play on lorean ladder and see what happend ...... ,i would say eventhough you macro well enough but in the end you will lose in late game situation. Sure, I probably would. I don't claim to be a pro player. When I lose games, it's because I played worse than my opponent. I'm sick of ladder Terrans (i.e. most of this forum) complaining about how they lost to some "terrible" Protoss on ladder. That's the root of all this QQ and everyone knows it. If one looks at the professional scene, there's anything but a tradition of Protoss dominance against Terran. Seriously, aside from this season of the GSL, where is Protoss destroying Terran? I mean, the last buff to Protoss was awhile ago, so I'm curious as to why one season of GSL suddenly means Toss is imbalanced, despite Terrans collecting wins fairly well at other tournaments.
Well you didn't understand about "Map pool"
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On May 04 2012 22:39 ntssauce wrote:
you can't harras as terran if protoss uses an all in stratagy like 7 gate, because every part of your army is important. you can't send any part out on the map , without the fear to die.
You do not need to harass if he is doing 7-gate. You just need to defend well and be ahead without harassment.
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If you're going to try to nerf protoss lategame, you damn well better nerf terran midgame and harass too. Or is all the complaining from Terrans who let the game progress to lategame, and are sad because they lose after their own inept playing?
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My point is "play better." At the top pro level, Terrans beat Protoss quite consistently. On ladder, Terrans (in this thread and others) have complained that they're microing their hearts out and the Protoss is just a-moving. This is false and shouldn't be perpetuated anymore.
Well, for instance here is my winrate percentages from March out of 30 respective matches:
TvZ: 53%
TvT: 67%
TvP: 23%
So you are saying that my macro and micro sucks, even tho i am able to win zerg and terran in the lategame?
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On May 04 2012 22:51 owlofhell wrote:Show nested quote +My point is "play better." At the top pro level, Terrans beat Protoss quite consistently. On ladder, Terrans (in this thread and others) have complained that they're microing their hearts out and the Protoss is just a-moving. This is false and shouldn't be perpetuated anymore. Well, for instance here is my winrate percentages from March out of 30 respective matches: TvZ: 53% TvT: 67% TvP: 23% So you are saying that my macro and micro sucks, even tho i am able to win zerg and terran in the lategame?
You suck at the matchup, yes. I don't see why this is so difficult to accept. Tonnes of (even pro) players are notoriously awful at particular matchups despite being very good at others. In March I had something like a 30% winrate in PvZ, but now it's a contender for my best matchup. It has little to do with balance. You're just doing something wrong.
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bad design = bad problems later
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Blizzard is so fucking stupid. The mere fact that they are looking at "global ladder results" to try and determine balance is ridiculous. The only way to properly balance the game is to look at the very top level and the very top level alone. For example, if everyone played lategame TvP the style PartinG plays it Blizzard's "global ladder results" would be a LOT different. Jesus, it's almost like Blizzard doesn't give a fuck about e-sports...
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Guess it'S time to play like blizzard intents you to: All in like a mofo on 2 bases every game. Fun times...
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mmm is it really a problem that you have to turtle in your base till your siege tank is out because otherwise goons will just stomp you, but afterwards your tanks and spidermines will dominate the map, until the toss is able to reach the lategame, shifting the advantage once again. Ooops wrong game.
Don't really see a problem in tvp, its actually quiet fun to play, even though i would prefer to have a t3 option as terran. This is denied though by the fact, that i have to do midgame aggression.
Wonder though why midgame aggression means 2 base allin, normally i go 90 workers 4 base to survive the lategame against toss and don't have all ghosts on 1 group in the front and have them roasted by storms and colossus and think afterwards, why did i lose this.
Lately tosses are the ones that do the aggression though, since they found out the immortal range buff is pretty nice to rush terran.
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I'm once again legitimately embarrassed for the quality of posts in this thread. It's rife with low-level theorycrafting and intense word-twisting of Blizzard's post to fit their terrible low-level theorycraft. I apologize to anyone hoping for a legitimate discussion and having to deal with this trash.
Blizzard said midgame strength fine as long as it can't be easily countered by an obvious strategy, like turtling to weather a midgame push. This one sentence shits all over 99% of the posts in this thread that repeat each other and circlejerk so hard they're threatening to rip each other's dicks off.
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If terran players press that mid-game advantage, then protoss can’t necessarily get into the late game at their full potential, which can nullify any advantage they might have had.
Everyone, please read that 2 or 3 times.
If protoss even has to devote resources to defending in the midgame (regardless of if aggression comes or not) that don't go into the deathball, T comes out even with P. T doesn't have to allin before 15 min at all, they just have to force toss to slow down.
Also, please consider this:
To put it another way, mirror matches already show us what StarCraft II looks like when both opposing forces have identical strengths at each stage of the game.
watching tvp when both races are too similar will be infinitely more boring than watching 1 or 2 base allins.
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A said in several older Threads: Terran profit grandly from good micro, but referring to TopGSL-micro as standard leaves back all the suffering Terrans in lower leagues behind, that dont manage to move every marine singulary for dodging a storm.
Ghosts are the designed counterpart to Hitemps, but with the major diffrence that on near same investments ghosts just dont deal any damage. As Protoss you get hit by several EMPs, you pull back losing some gateunits in the progress, which are instantly replenished. As terran you get hit by 2-3 storms and your whole army is gone. Imo a simple buff of radius or damage of storms would be a great benefit for lategame TvP.
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You suck at the matchup, yes. I don't see why this is so difficult to accept. Tonnes of (even pro) players are notoriously awful at particular matchups despite being very good at others. In March I had something like a 30% winrate in PvZ, but now it's a contender for my best matchup. It has little to do with balance. You're just doing something wrong.
Me and half of the other terrans...
Not so long ago i recall a poll on teamliquid "whats your worst matchup?". What do you know, even tho it was to all people, it ended up a huge whine-fest between terran and protoss, because 70% of terrans chose TvP as their wealest match-up. Well, its obviously a huge troll, all terrans decided vote for TvP just for kicks, to stir things up.
Really, why people keep thinking that they now exactly the reason why things are wrong, despite having suffisent knowledge about the problem?
P.S. I recently tried out protoss, just for kicks (got my hands on a guest past). I'm plat terran, never played protoss before, literally. After 4 hours of play + some research, i got to plat and growing higer and faster than my terran acc. Well, its obviously cause my hands are better suited to plat protoss.
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On May 04 2012 22:58 OmegaKnetus wrote:
Guess it'S time to play like blizzard intents you to: All in like a mofo on 2 bases every game. Fun times...
or go back to a better game like you know....BW?
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EPT
