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On May 04 2012 23:29 Sorkoas wrote:
I love everything they imply with this post by Blizzard.
- Terran has better harassment tools than Protoss
- Terran has stronger pressure tools than Protoss
- Terran has significantly stronger midgame than Protoss
- Terran doesn't have to invest too much to use these tools (i.e. become "all-in")
Thank you Blizzard for sharing your view on the matter. Now please read what the community think about this being balanced.
TvP is balanced, but it's not dynamic at all. It goes like this: T<P first 0-7 minutes because of cannon rush, 4gate, 3gate void, etc.
T>P 8-12 minutes because of 1-1-1, marine/marauder/medivac timing, and capitalizing on any advantage Terran got from earlier on against pressure.
T<P from 13 minutes until Terran gets enough vikings to nullify Colossus and enough Ghosts to nullify Templar and EMP the crap out of everything Protoss, at which point, T>P simply because of the amount of stuff Terran can abuse to his advantage such as nukes, PF's, and macro orbitals.
This has some holes in it such as 2 barracks pressure which puts you in a much differnet spot, as well as extremely fast barracks and hellion rushes, but this is a general idea of what goes on in TvP.
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On May 04 2012 23:21 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 23:20 Fencer710 wrote:On May 04 2012 23:14 owlofhell wrote:
This game isn't balanced around low leagues. If it were, the Baneling would have been nerfed against the Marine.
So, i was right. Feels good to see that your opponent admitted defeat ;D On a sidenote, a good small nerf for P will be to restrict amount of units that you are available to warp in off one pylon to X (arou 4-6 i think) for 20-30 seconds (less that warp cycle). That way it won't hinder any early agression from P, while forcing P to warp lategame reinforcments (infamous 20 zealots) somewhere in other place. Of course, just more proxies could be thrown, but that means more targets for T. Because really, when P warps 20 zealots, i make 20 marines, 5 marauders and maybe few ghosts in late-game (yes i have >15 rax usually). Problem is, zealots are RIGHT THERE, together, why my reinforcmetns slowly making their way to battlefiled. Tho why im saying that, noone cares about it anyway. Oh well, better go play some more PvT, even if it demands more skill from me, i WILL beat it! I think that giving Pylons a small amount of Energy is a much more elegant solution, and have a pylon spend between 1 and 10 energy to warp in a single unit, and spawn with about 25 energy. They'll just build 2/3+ pylons next to each other. It's not like you're starving for minerals, generally, late game.
Yes, but if the energy is deducted at the end of the warp-in and the warpin is canceled if there isn't enough energy, a single EMP could cancel a warp-in.
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On May 04 2012 23:37 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 23:29 Sorkoas wrote:
I love everything they imply with this post by Blizzard.
- Terran has better harassment tools than Protoss
- Terran has stronger pressure tools than Protoss
- Terran has significantly stronger midgame than Protoss
- Terran doesn't have to invest too much to use these tools (i.e. become "all-in")
Thank you Blizzard for sharing your view on the matter. Now please read what the community think about this being balanced. TvP is balanced, but it's not dynamic at all. It goes like this: T<P first 0-7 minutes because of cannon rush, 4gate, 3gate void, etc. T>P 8-12 minutes because of 1-1-1, marine/marauder/medivac timing, and capitalizing on any advantage Terran got from earlier on against pressure. T<P from 13 minutes until Terran gets enough vikings to nullify Colossus and enough Ghosts to nullify Templar and EMP the crap out of everything Protoss, at which point, T>P simply because of the amount of stuff Terran can abuse to his advantage such as nukes, PF's, and macro orbitals. This has some holes in it such as 2 barracks pressure which puts you in a much differnet spot, as well as extremely fast barracks and hellion rushes, but this is a general idea of what goes on in TvP.
I bolded the part where you immediately became completely unqualified to comment on TvP/PvT balance.
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On May 04 2012 23:26 AdmrlAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +This is actually a good thing for us as spectators, because it encourages Terran to be more active in the mid-game so that they enter the late game on more even footing. Dont you think its way harder to be active on map, risking your army while keeping up on macro and upgrades, just to stay even? (And still maybe lose everything to a storm?!)
Honestly not really. Yes, lategame Protoss comps are strong, but Terran is capable of fielding a strong army significantly earlier. This means it's extremely easy to be active on the map and try to deny expansions/tech/units. Killing Templar or Archons or Colossi at this stage of the game is actually pretty big, since in the transition from 2 to 3 bases, Protoss can't always afford spares.
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On May 04 2012 23:39 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 23:37 Fencer710 wrote:On May 04 2012 23:29 Sorkoas wrote:
I love everything they imply with this post by Blizzard.
- Terran has better harassment tools than Protoss
- Terran has stronger pressure tools than Protoss
- Terran has significantly stronger midgame than Protoss
- Terran doesn't have to invest too much to use these tools (i.e. become "all-in")
Thank you Blizzard for sharing your view on the matter. Now please read what the community think about this being balanced. TvP is balanced, but it's not dynamic at all. It goes like this: T<P first 0-7 minutes because of cannon rush, 4gate, 3gate void, etc. T>P 8-12 minutes because of 1-1-1, marine/marauder/medivac timing, and capitalizing on any advantage Terran got from earlier on against pressure. T<P from 13 minutes until Terran gets enough vikings to nullify Colossus and enough Ghosts to nullify Templar and EMP the crap out of everything Protoss, at which point, T>P simply because of the amount of stuff Terran can abuse to his advantage such as nukes, PF's, and macro orbitals.This has some holes in it such as 2 barracks pressure which puts you in a much differnet spot, as well as extremely fast barracks and hellion rushes, but this is a general idea of what goes on in TvP. I bolded the part where you immediately became completely unqualified to comment on TvP/PvT balance.
Yeah.. and if you read on, you get the even more ridiculous "T>P simply because of the amount of stuff Terran can abuse to his advantage such as nukes, PF's, and macro orbitals."
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On May 04 2012 23:39 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 23:37 Fencer710 wrote:On May 04 2012 23:29 Sorkoas wrote:
I love everything they imply with this post by Blizzard.
- Terran has better harassment tools than Protoss
- Terran has stronger pressure tools than Protoss
- Terran has significantly stronger midgame than Protoss
- Terran doesn't have to invest too much to use these tools (i.e. become "all-in")
Thank you Blizzard for sharing your view on the matter. Now please read what the community think about this being balanced. TvP is balanced, but it's not dynamic at all. It goes like this: T<P first 0-7 minutes because of cannon rush, 4gate, 3gate void, etc. T>P 8-12 minutes because of 1-1-1, marine/marauder/medivac timing, and capitalizing on any advantage Terran got from earlier on against pressure. T<P from 13 minutes until Terran gets enough vikings to nullify Colossus and enough Ghosts to nullify Templar and EMP the crap out of everything Protoss, at which point, T>P simply because of the amount of stuff Terran can abuse to his advantage such as nukes, PF's, and macro orbitals. This has some holes in it such as 2 barracks pressure which puts you in a much differnet spot, as well as extremely fast barracks and hellion rushes, but this is a general idea of what goes on in TvP. I bolded the part where you immediately became completely unqualified to comment on TvP/PvT balance.
Didn't you see the latest funday monday part 3?
There's a protoss in GM who only cannon rushes.
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On May 04 2012 23:42 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 23:26 AdmrlAwesome wrote:This is actually a good thing for us as spectators, because it encourages Terran to be more active in the mid-game so that they enter the late game on more even footing. Dont you think its way harder to be active on map, risking your army while keeping up on macro and upgrades, just to stay even? (And still maybe lose everything to a storm?!) Honestly not really. Yes, lategame Protoss comps are strong, but Terran is capable of fielding a strong army significantly earlier. This means it's extremely easy to be active on the map and try to deny expansions/tech/units. Killing Templar or Archons or Colossi at this stage of the game is actually pretty big, since in the transition from 2 to 3 bases, Protoss can't always afford spares.
You skill should be very high since you siad "his means it's extremely easy to be active on the map and try to deny expansions/tech/units" i want to see your replay once.
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On May 04 2012 23:43 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 23:39 VirgilSC2 wrote:On May 04 2012 23:37 Fencer710 wrote:On May 04 2012 23:29 Sorkoas wrote:
I love everything they imply with this post by Blizzard.
- Terran has better harassment tools than Protoss
- Terran has stronger pressure tools than Protoss
- Terran has significantly stronger midgame than Protoss
- Terran doesn't have to invest too much to use these tools (i.e. become "all-in")
Thank you Blizzard for sharing your view on the matter. Now please read what the community think about this being balanced. TvP is balanced, but it's not dynamic at all. It goes like this: T<P first 0-7 minutes because of cannon rush, 4gate, 3gate void, etc. T>P 8-12 minutes because of 1-1-1, marine/marauder/medivac timing, and capitalizing on any advantage Terran got from earlier on against pressure. T<P from 13 minutes until Terran gets enough vikings to nullify Colossus and enough Ghosts to nullify Templar and EMP the crap out of everything Protoss, at which point, T>P simply because of the amount of stuff Terran can abuse to his advantage such as nukes, PF's, and macro orbitals.This has some holes in it such as 2 barracks pressure which puts you in a much differnet spot, as well as extremely fast barracks and hellion rushes, but this is a general idea of what goes on in TvP. I bolded the part where you immediately became completely unqualified to comment on TvP/PvT balance. Yeah.. and if you read on, you get the even more ridiculous "T>P simply because of the amount of stuff Terran can abuse to his advantage such as nukes, PF's, and macro orbitals."
That is after the danger period of when you are vulnerable to something like a 4 colossus storm push while you don't have many ghosts or vikings and he has an upgrade advantage.
You have to actually do that, though. It's like going against bl/infestor with Marine/Tank and not adding any thors or vikings.
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On May 04 2012 23:47 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 23:43 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 04 2012 23:39 VirgilSC2 wrote:On May 04 2012 23:37 Fencer710 wrote:On May 04 2012 23:29 Sorkoas wrote:
I love everything they imply with this post by Blizzard.
- Terran has better harassment tools than Protoss
- Terran has stronger pressure tools than Protoss
- Terran has significantly stronger midgame than Protoss
- Terran doesn't have to invest too much to use these tools (i.e. become "all-in")
Thank you Blizzard for sharing your view on the matter. Now please read what the community think about this being balanced. TvP is balanced, but it's not dynamic at all. It goes like this: T<P first 0-7 minutes because of cannon rush, 4gate, 3gate void, etc. T>P 8-12 minutes because of 1-1-1, marine/marauder/medivac timing, and capitalizing on any advantage Terran got from earlier on against pressure. T<P from 13 minutes until Terran gets enough vikings to nullify Colossus and enough Ghosts to nullify Templar and EMP the crap out of everything Protoss, at which point, T>P simply because of the amount of stuff Terran can abuse to his advantage such as nukes, PF's, and macro orbitals.This has some holes in it such as 2 barracks pressure which puts you in a much differnet spot, as well as extremely fast barracks and hellion rushes, but this is a general idea of what goes on in TvP. I bolded the part where you immediately became completely unqualified to comment on TvP/PvT balance. Yeah.. and if you read on, you get the even more ridiculous "T>P simply because of the amount of stuff Terran can abuse to his advantage such as nukes, PF's, and macro orbitals." That is after the danger period of when you are vulnerable to something like a 4 colossus storm push while you don't have many ghosts or vikings and he has an upgrade advantage.
There is no period where you are NOT vulnerable to a protoss army with 3+ collossus, storm and ton of 3/3 gateway units. That is the point.
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On May 04 2012 23:46 nOondn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 23:42 Shiori wrote:On May 04 2012 23:26 AdmrlAwesome wrote:This is actually a good thing for us as spectators, because it encourages Terran to be more active in the mid-game so that they enter the late game on more even footing. Dont you think its way harder to be active on map, risking your army while keeping up on macro and upgrades, just to stay even? (And still maybe lose everything to a storm?!) Honestly not really. Yes, lategame Protoss comps are strong, but Terran is capable of fielding a strong army significantly earlier. This means it's extremely easy to be active on the map and try to deny expansions/tech/units. Killing Templar or Archons or Colossi at this stage of the game is actually pretty big, since in the transition from 2 to 3 bases, Protoss can't always afford spares. You skill should be very high since you siad "his means it's extremely easy to be active on the map and try to deny expansions/tech/units" i want to see your replay once.
Isn't that what all terrans try to do? By harassing and doing a good job, you force him to make units instead of teching and upgrading. Even if you are hardly killing anything, the fact that he keeps making gateway units is an advantage for you. If it gets to the endgame and he has only stalkers zealots and a couple collosi, you can easily crush his 200/200 army with a good compositon. However if you just sit back and do nothing, his 200/200 army will be HT, Archons, Collosi, and whatever he feels like filling in the rest of the supply with.
Day9 even adressed this topic in one of his dailies (albeit about ZvP). Zergs often got stuck on midgame army compositions, roach + hydra, and wouldn't get up to hive tech in time. This is the situation you want to put a Protoss in as Terran, and you achieve it through pressure.
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I kind of see terran struggling versus protoss as karma for the race. We struggled against them a while ago and now it's their turn 
Right now I would tend to agree that protoss has an advantage when it gets to 4 base+ but I also feel that terran has the advantage in early and mid game. The all-ins terran can field against protoss just make it so that it's difficult to get to late game if they decide to do something like that (1-1-1 and all it's variants, anybody?). Still at the same time something will hopefully change so that the game becomes more interesting, even if it's just so that the forums are cleared of all the balance whining for a while. HOTS will probably be that change.
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I think we just need to realize that - as far as tvp goes - Wings of Liberty is a sinking ship. There's really nothing that can be done about it. Blizzard needs to do massive changes the various parts of the tvp game to even it out.
My suggestions are remove the marauder, remove the medivac and find some way to make a straight up dropship more interesting. Switch out the colossus with a less a-move focused unit (revamp the Reaver, bascially) Add medics, buff tanks vs protoss shields. And since the marauder is gone, let the new mini-thor be ok vs Ultras. On top of that, add more new funky stuff like the Oracle or whatever... oh, and remove warpgates.. yeah, like that's going to happen -.-
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On May 04 2012 23:51 Najda wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 23:46 nOondn wrote:On May 04 2012 23:42 Shiori wrote:On May 04 2012 23:26 AdmrlAwesome wrote:This is actually a good thing for us as spectators, because it encourages Terran to be more active in the mid-game so that they enter the late game on more even footing. Dont you think its way harder to be active on map, risking your army while keeping up on macro and upgrades, just to stay even? (And still maybe lose everything to a storm?!) Honestly not really. Yes, lategame Protoss comps are strong, but Terran is capable of fielding a strong army significantly earlier. This means it's extremely easy to be active on the map and try to deny expansions/tech/units. Killing Templar or Archons or Colossi at this stage of the game is actually pretty big, since in the transition from 2 to 3 bases, Protoss can't always afford spares. You skill should be very high since you siad "his means it's extremely easy to be active on the map and try to deny expansions/tech/units" i want to see your replay once. Isn't that what all terrans try to do? By harassing and doing a good job, you force him to make units instead of teching and upgrading. Even if you are hardly killing anything, the fact that he keeps making gateway units is an advantage for you. If it gets to the endgame and he has only stalkers zealots and a couple collosi, you can easily crush his 200/200 army with a good compositon. However if you just sit back and do nothing, his 200/200 army will be HT, Archons, Collosi, and whatever he feels like filling in the rest of the supply with. Day9 even adressed this topic in one of his dailies (albeit about ZvP). Zergs often got stuck on midgame army compositions, roach + hydra, and wouldn't get up to hive tech in time. This is the situation you want to put a Protoss in as Terran, and you achieve it through pressure.
Yeah. Even a little bit is good, because every four stalkers he makes is one less colossus and one less zealot that he has in the late-game.
There used to be a way to actually not have to punish it so hard through the triple orbital build, but the recent 2base 3 colossus push from Squirtle screws it.
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On May 04 2012 23:54 Quotidian wrote:
I think we just need to realize that - as far as tvp goes - Wings of Liberty is a sinking ship. There's really nothing that can be done about it. Blizzard needs to do massive changes the various parts of the tvp game to even it out.
My suggestions are remove the marauder, remove the medivac and find some way to make a straight up dropship more interesting. Switch out the colossus with a less a-move focused unit (revamp the Reaver, bascially) Add medics, buff tanks vs protoss shields. And since the marauder is gone, let the new mini-thor be ok vs Ultras. On top of that, add more new funky stuff like the Oracle or whatever... oh, and remove warpgates.. yeah, like that's going to happen -.-
I think that either nerfing warpgate directly and or buffing gates directly could work in conjunction with reworking the Colossus to something like a Reaver, and generally making units have a higher skill cap.
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On May 04 2012 23:54 Quotidian wrote:
I think we just need to realize that - as far as tvp goes - Wings of Liberty is a sinking ship. There's really nothing that can be done about it. Blizzard needs to do massive changes the various parts of the tvp game to even it out.
My suggestions are remove the marauder, remove the medivac and find some way to make a straight up dropship more interesting. Switch out the colossus with a less a-move focused unit (revamp the Reaver, bascially) Add medics, buff tanks vs protoss shields. And since the marauder is gone, let the new mini-thor be ok vs Ultras. On top of that, add more new funky stuff like the Oracle or whatever... oh, and remove warpgates.. yeah, like that's going to happen -.-
I've never heard anyone with a problem with the medivac. It's the best addition to the Starcraft universe, and enables/rewards multitasking.
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On May 04 2012 23:51 Najda wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 23:46 nOondn wrote:On May 04 2012 23:42 Shiori wrote:On May 04 2012 23:26 AdmrlAwesome wrote:This is actually a good thing for us as spectators, because it encourages Terran to be more active in the mid-game so that they enter the late game on more even footing. Dont you think its way harder to be active on map, risking your army while keeping up on macro and upgrades, just to stay even? (And still maybe lose everything to a storm?!) Honestly not really. Yes, lategame Protoss comps are strong, but Terran is capable of fielding a strong army significantly earlier. This means it's extremely easy to be active on the map and try to deny expansions/tech/units. Killing Templar or Archons or Colossi at this stage of the game is actually pretty big, since in the transition from 2 to 3 bases, Protoss can't always afford spares. You skill should be very high since you siad "his means it's extremely easy to be active on the map and try to deny expansions/tech/units" i want to see your replay once. Isn't that what all terrans try to do? By harassing and doing a good job, you force him to make units instead of teching and upgrading. Even if you are hardly killing anything, the fact that he keeps making gateway units is an advantage for you. If it gets to the endgame and he has only stalkers zealots and a couple collosi, you can easily crush his 200/200 army with a good compositon. However if you just sit back and do nothing, his 200/200 army will be HT, Archons, Collosi, and whatever he feels like filling in the rest of the supply with. Day9 even adressed this topic in one of his dailies (albeit about ZvP). Zergs often got stuck on midgame army compositions, roach + hydra, and wouldn't get up to hive tech in time. This is the situation you want to put a Protoss in as Terran, and you achieve it through pressure.
Yes ,That what terran doing nowadays but you need to know that current map pool it hard to do that thing (Drop,Multi prong attack etc.), So it hard to do much damage to take advantage into lategame -_- .
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To this day, I don't understand why Terrans don't go after forges. Hell, build 1 Viking and fly across their base to find the forges+other potential weak spots.
You have no idea how frustrating it is trying to get to late game when Marauders with ridiculous DPS snipe a forge and some pylons.
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On May 04 2012 13:48 Talack wrote:
They are basically saying that they expect you to kill the protoss before late game.
No, that is absolutely not what Blizzard said.
Blizzard said that if there is few to no losses, Protoss usually enters the late game with an advantage. However since Blizzard gave Terran the tools to harass Protoss and causes losses, then it is indeed up to the Terran player to use the advantages Blizzard gave them in order to gain an advantage going into the late game.
What is wrong with that? Terran players having to use the advantages Blizzard gave them in order to gain an advantage over their opponent? Is that not what we should expect from all the races?
Terran players need to understand how incredibly effective their forms of harassment are especially compared to the forms of harassment Protoss have. Regardless of late game balance, that alone is huge advantage Terran has, and for the game to be balanced then, Protoss would have be in the situation they are now. In other words Protoss harrassment isn't very good, but Terran is, thus Protoss needs to make up the advantage somewhere else.
Where would Terran players prefer Protoss made up the advantage? As Blizzard said, the matchup is balanced in terms of winrates, and last time I checked Terran is still ahead in terms of winrates for professional games internationally (http://imgur.com/a/TC9DB). Thus, if you nerf late game Protoss, then Blizzard has to nerf mid-game Terran. Simple as that.
On May 04 2012 23:51 Thrombozyt wrote:
There is no period where you are NOT vulnerable to a protoss army with 3+ collossus, storm and ton of 3/3 gateway units. That is the point.
Except for the first 18 minutes of the game?
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Canada13405 Posts
EMP timings and emps wrecked protoss for quite a while.
Then protoss went double forge.
Then there were still difficulties and emp radius was nerfed a but.
People thought double forge was OMG SUPER LATE GAME UNBEATABLE!
Then Terrans started going 3 cc into 2 engi bays with drops to pressure and it was all even again.
Now protoss is using HTs and splitting our units well.
Terran just needs to learn where and when to push their advantage so that protoss can't just get 200/200 3-3-3 collossus and 8 to 10 gas for nothing but HTs and all minerals into chargelots.
The same way protoss needs to explore how to get a decent advantage or do some damage so that zerg doesn't have a maxed roach army at the 11-12 minute mark.
IF there are serious issues, blizzard will look into it but since terran still beats protoss in late game from time to time even at the highest of levels then no one should be complaining.
I know GSL has a lot of protoss in the top 8/top4. But lets think about it this way: most of the matches were PvT and PvP.
A lot of the protoss players are really really strong and some of the strongest terran players got knocked out early by the strongest Protoss players.
of the 3 protoss left, two are on StarTale and one of them is Parting. ST protosses have some of the best PvT at the moment and when parting played MKP in the group stages, that could have been in the finals but parting decided he wanted to try and knock out MKP early and he succeeded with the help of others.
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seems to me blizzard completely missed the point of the TvP QQ.
not a big surprise.
i guess the point of their statement is that Protoss wont be getting nerfs, meh
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EPT
