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On April 10 2012 18:04 naastyOne wrote:
Hello everyone,
While I do understand that TL webforum is quite a "certain type of people" community, there is so ridiculous amound of not called upon fail i just wanted to get in.
First of all, sport is about the SHOW, not determining who has the longest dick. While skill is an integral part of the Show, more skill doesn`t necessary means better show. When about half of matches are predictably Korean terran MMM&drops, you might as well not watch half of the tournament. Simple as that, pick the "best"(the highest in position or whatever criterium) don`t waste time on the else. Obviously this is an example, but you get the drill.
Secondly 95% to 99% will not see the difference between the "code A" and "code S" doing same BO and style of play, while they can very vell notice different styles of play and different BOs. What does it means? Basically that there is no need for 90% of tournament to be super mega pro skilled players for it to be entertaining, on contray, such tournament is less predictable, and thurs more interesting.
That is the thing that is widely seen world-wide. The lesser leagues, i mean every friging european country has 2-3 leagues of football. Strangely, they have enough fans and money to live their life, despite the fact that uniting them into one "mega" league would result in overall "higher skill".
Could continue with other sports, but pretty much all sports have their lowest competitions at inter schools or inter-university levels, with kids/students playing in free of study time, so the argument holds perfectly.
Now, Look at SC2 itself. How many of the "skilled" players praise HD/day9/whoever, and dislike Husky(H to the usky husky). Guesswhat, Husky pretty much has larger auditory than all other english casters brought together. Ever thought why? Well, he manages to do the "show" part better, while casting same replays as others.
Ever wondered why the for example Football World Cup is much more noticeable and attended event than European Cup, despite the fact that Europeans dominate football, and a part from Argentina and Brazil, pretty much no national team can stand up? Despite the fact that a lot of European underdogs are probably better than some/most of teams from other than Europe/SA region.
So what does this means? It means in an order to survive and develop any sport needs a balance of local and international events, local and international teams, and most importantly content for broad spectre of dedication, and international events should be international, it should be serving to promote and advertise the sport apon broad community.
The problem may be not the IPL itself, but the fact that there is a lack of the local/non-korean tournaments, (while there are very plenty of korean dominated tournaments) and IPL was looking like the missing part, but it was just pretty much ended up as MLG, so largely failed to provide something different and unique.
Lastly, the ones about "they need to get better" got it upside down. When korea has community, which generates enough revenue to pay large enough number of pro-gamers for a living, In NA/EU, it does not exists, so foreign players can not really dedicate themselves to SC2, because they also have education and work which is not connected to SC2 and takes time from it.
Which again brings down the question of how to build up the international community, and "international tournaments"(coupled with local ones) are a great thing to do, bot only if the "domination of one nation" is impossible, otherwise the entire event serves only as another local competition for that country.
And the words of IPL4 manager pretty much confirms it, IPL4 failed on it`s purpose of an international tournament. Still interesting event, but largely irrelevant.
I agree. While some may argue that Nationalistic pride should not play a role in the support of E-Sports and that support should be gained on merit. Not based on where your born or what race you are.
But I honestly just lose interest as soon as there are no foreigners left in a tournament. I just turn it off. For example, when Stephano got knocked out of IPL 4, I lost interest immediately. Turned off the stream and never looked back.
Personally, not even I completely understand why this is the case. But if I were to guess it would be that I find it hard to relate to Koreans, the language barrier makes it difficult to fully appreciate their back-stories (except for the prominent figures MC, Nesta, MMA etc) thus some form of alienation occurs because to me that's one of the fundamental entertainment factors of E-sports. Also I can never really understand Korean demeanour/body language/facial expressions. Obviously this is because they grew up in a different culture on the other side of the planet, so it's just lack of knowledge on my part. But I hate the feeling of "lost in translation" I get just trying to read their faces and movements and not being able to discern all the information I usually can with people of similar cultural conditioning to me.
This might be considered inappropriate to say considering how politically correct the world is becoming with people dismissing Nationalistic values as unnecessary and irrelevant in today's globalist world. But the tournaments I have enjoyed the most are the ones in which Swedish people win. I just LIKE knowing that Thorzain for example walked the same soil, speaks the same language went through similar cultural experiences etc. Because it confirms to me that we Swedish people (people from my area of residence, thus same race) are not inferior. We can compete with the best of the best and there is a certain level of comfort in that knowledge. Not to mention Pride, which surely also comes into play. Shamefully, for I know the "Us vs Them" mentality is doing nothing but damage the planet and human race as a whole.
"The old appeals to racial, sexual and religious chauvinism and to rabid nationalism are beginning not to work. A new consciousness is developing which sees the earth as a single organism and recognizes that an organism at war with itself is doomed. We are one planet." - Carl Sagan
whoah really went off on a tangent here. But I reckon it's relevant at the really core levels of what the OP is saying.
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Actually all my favourite players to watch, besides Huk & White-Ra, are koreans. I hated them initially, i thought 'they're all cocky, thinking they are better just because they're asians, i'll sooner die then cheer for them'...but after some time i grow up and realized the level of skill they posses, the true passion and dedication for the game they represent which most foreigners seem to lack...
They just don't whine about balance. If they lose, they never say 'this game is shit'. They just practice harder.
I am not surprised at all that koreans mostly dominate. Only foreigners with a dedication close to theirs can consistently take matches from them, like Huk, which as far as i remember never complained about balance. Players like Idra, who as far as i remember never claimed the game to be balanced, is 0-4 in almost all tournaments he takes part in. That's only an example, but it shows You the differencee between a korean mindset (Huk) and foreign's one.
And regarding to the OP - Koreans do the SHOW. The most exciting games You can see are those from Korean players, solely because the level of skill they have. How do You want the international tournaments to be exciting, when sometimes foreigners get killed by koreans so badly that it's just sad to watch? How do You want foreigners-only tournaments to be exciting, when after watching koreans play, foreigner's games seem to be played in slow-motion?
It's only foreigners fault. Dividing the scene because of their lack of dedication/passion will lead to the same as Brood War. Korea will be the only place where real starcraft is played, foreigners will be like bronze players, nobody will care. So, they need to step the f*** up and stop complaining once and forever.
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The problem may be not the IPL itself, but the fact that there is a lack of the local/non-korean tournaments, (while there are very plenty of korean dominated tournaments) and IPL was looking like the missing part, but it was just pretty much ended up as MLG, so largely failed to provide something different and unique.
We have them. Like ONOG had no Koreans Shoutcraft had no Koreans. So if you want more of those go and support them.Tell others how great they are and that they should watch them.
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The gamers need to play harder.
The fans need to not reward mediocre players by watching their streams, supporting their sponsors, and hyping their events. The best players are not the highest paid players, not even close. There is not enough incentive to become the best, being entertaining is far more rewarding.
The current expasion of ESPORTS is a bubble.
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On April 10 2012 18:33 blackone wrote:
The best way to deal with this is stopping to be a racist and start rooting for players based on their personalities or skill or looks instead of their race.
Okay, how many of the Korean players even bothered opening their personality to outsiders?
On April 10 2012 18:36 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 18:04 naastyOne wrote:
Now, Look at SC2 itself. How many of the "skilled" players praise HD/day9/whoever, and dislike Husky(H to the usky husky). Guesswhat, Husky pretty much has larger auditory than all other english casters brought together. Ever thought why? Well, he manages to do the "show" part better, while casting same replays as others.
This part really made me laugh... i think almost noone praises HD anymore since beta while a ton of people (including high level) like Husky :p
Well i saw something some were on TL website pretty resent, or i don`t know, but you are right that i`m not that much into the "pro" opinions about casters.
On April 10 2012 18:36 Morfildur wrote:
On the rest of your post... You look like you haven't followed the SC2 scene very closely. Most casual people (like me) can discern the skill of people like Stephano,Polt,MMA or MKP from people like CoCa,Top,Bomber or Clide. While the first are awesome to watch in their games due to their incredible skill, the Code A people are just not that interesting to watch because all games look basically the same.
(I know i put Stephano into the Code S group eventhough he is not - but he should be :p)
Yes, the Show is important, that is why so many people love MC eventhough he doesn't always show the best results, but the best show comes from seeing exciting games (for example Stephano vs Polt at LSC and MLG was a great show _because_ both players have incredible skill).
As for the football world cup having more viewers than EU football cup... well, thats mostly a matter of advertising.
Well i follow it up pretty closely for ~5 months.
What i generally mean is that the game doesn`t necesery have to have 2 top players in the world to be interesting, just 2 persons with decent skill and fairly even play.
Again skill is not personality for me, there is skill, and play style, for example White-Ra has awsome play-style but his skill is not the best in the world. Or Spanishuwa, and his no gas for a while zerg, or, if both players play MMM&drops their play style is same , while skill(micro, macro, map awerenes, ex) may differ. Again the game has to be exiting, and skill is not the only factor, actually may be the least important factor in determining how exiting the game is. It is about emotions, "strange" moves, and special tactics, unpredictability, and so on, not the how well you micro your bio ball(ofc bio-ball is just an example, but Korean-terran, well you probably get why i put it in)
Even if Football WC has more viewers due to advertisement only, which i don`t believe, it still kinda proves that the "skill" is not the only deciding factor.
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On April 10 2012 18:59 Uracil wrote:Show nested quote +The problem may be not the IPL itself, but the fact that there is a lack of the local/non-korean tournaments, (while there are very plenty of korean dominated tournaments) and IPL was looking like the missing part, but it was just pretty much ended up as MLG, so largely failed to provide something different and unique. We have them. Like ONOG had no Koreans Shoutcraft had no Koreans. So if you want more of those go and support them.Tell others how great they are and that they should watch them.
How did you came up with the idea that i don`t?
And why so much hate?
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On April 10 2012 17:06 windsupernova wrote:
I´d probably agree in that national talent needs breathing room to develop if not for the silly notion of grouping every non Korea country as ¨foreigner¨.
I know it comes from BW where outside of Korea the community was small. But as far as ¨ helping new talent¨ it doesn´t make difference to an American having all the money taken by Europeans than by Koreans.
How about people.... you know do like SEA server did and do national tournies?
As far of who is more entertaining I couldn't care less about nationality.
SEA server runs a lot of SEA-only leagues because our events are so small we'd hardly attract the attention of KR/NA players. Except for pure online events, which we do allow on occasion (the SEASL2 NA qualifiers, Dox cup 2 and presumably 3 and the occasional match against Taiwan) although not all the time because KR would demolish us if we did.
There's nothing wrong with national tournies or a strong focus on a more insular e-sports focus as long as that region can support itself. Look at Taiwan, they have a really strong scene and they only ever (Sen)d one player around and have no players come into their leagues and they're fine. Europe also seems to manage quite well with their mostly Euro focus. I'm curious if the same can be said of North America though, not really sure.
Oh, and as to why Koreans are better then everyone else, they practice smarter and harder and overall better then everyone else. Their team house and coach infrastructure kicks the shit out of everyone else, and tons of these players came from strong Broodwar backgrounds so their mechanics are sharper then foreigners.
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On April 10 2012 19:04 Daitakk wrote:
The gamers need to play harder.
The fans need to not reward mediocre players by watching their streams, supporting their sponsors, and hyping their events. The best players are not the highest paid players, not even close. There is not enough incentive to become the best, being entertaining is far more rewarding.
People pay for entertaining them.
ALL sport is either for self-perfection &/or earning money.
Processional sport is entertaiment industry no less than movies or music.
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Foreigners get rolled all the time because they suck balls in comparison to koreans. How 'bout they stop the partying, drinking, etc and they begin practicing 10 hours a day? Oh, wait.. better restrict koreans from tourneys and lower the skill level so foreign players can do better with the same low ass skill. Your logic would fit nicely into Blizzard's game balance team 
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On April 10 2012 18:56 Kiichol wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 18:04 naastyOne wrote:
Hello everyone,
While I do understand that TL webforum is quite a "certain type of people" community, there is so ridiculous amound of not called upon fail i just wanted to get in.
First of all, sport is about the SHOW, not determining who has the longest dick. While skill is an integral part of the Show, more skill doesn`t necessary means better show. When about half of matches are predictably Korean terran MMM&drops, you might as well not watch half of the tournament. Simple as that, pick the "best"(the highest in position or whatever criterium) don`t waste time on the else. Obviously this is an example, but you get the drill.
Secondly 95% to 99% will not see the difference between the "code A" and "code S" doing same BO and style of play, while they can very vell notice different styles of play and different BOs. What does it means? Basically that there is no need for 90% of tournament to be super mega pro skilled players for it to be entertaining, on contray, such tournament is less predictable, and thurs more interesting.
That is the thing that is widely seen world-wide. The lesser leagues, i mean every friging european country has 2-3 leagues of football. Strangely, they have enough fans and money to live their life, despite the fact that uniting them into one "mega" league would result in overall "higher skill".
Could continue with other sports, but pretty much all sports have their lowest competitions at inter schools or inter-university levels, with kids/students playing in free of study time, so the argument holds perfectly.
Now, Look at SC2 itself. How many of the "skilled" players praise HD/day9/whoever, and dislike Husky(H to the usky husky). Guesswhat, Husky pretty much has larger auditory than all other english casters brought together. Ever thought why? Well, he manages to do the "show" part better, while casting same replays as others.
Ever wondered why the for example Football World Cup is much more noticeable and attended event than European Cup, despite the fact that Europeans dominate football, and a part from Argentina and Brazil, pretty much no national team can stand up? Despite the fact that a lot of European underdogs are probably better than some/most of teams from other than Europe/SA region.
So what does this means? It means in an order to survive and develop any sport needs a balance of local and international events, local and international teams, and most importantly content for broad spectre of dedication, and international events should be international, it should be serving to promote and advertise the sport apon broad community.
The problem may be not the IPL itself, but the fact that there is a lack of the local/non-korean tournaments, (while there are very plenty of korean dominated tournaments) and IPL was looking like the missing part, but it was just pretty much ended up as MLG, so largely failed to provide something different and unique.
Lastly, the ones about "they need to get better" got it upside down. When korea has community, which generates enough revenue to pay large enough number of pro-gamers for a living, In NA/EU, it does not exists, so foreign players can not really dedicate themselves to SC2, because they also have education and work which is not connected to SC2 and takes time from it.
Which again brings down the question of how to build up the international community, and "international tournaments"(coupled with local ones) are a great thing to do, bot only if the "domination of one nation" is impossible, otherwise the entire event serves only as another local competition for that country.
And the words of IPL4 manager pretty much confirms it, IPL4 failed on it`s purpose of an international tournament. Still interesting event, but largely irrelevant. I agree. While some may argue that Nationalistic pride should not play a role in the support of E-Sports and that support should be gained on merit. Not based on where your born or what race you are. But I honestly just lose interest as soon as there are no foreigners left in a tournament. I just turn it off. For example, when Stephano got knocked out of IPL 4, I lost interest immediately. Turned off the stream and never looked back. Personally, not even I completely understand why this is the case. But if I were to guess it would be that I find it hard to relate to Koreans, the language barrier makes it difficult to fully appreciate their back-stories (except for the prominent figures MC, Nesta, MMA etc) thus some form of alienation occurs because to me that's one of the fundamental entertainment factors of E-sports. Also I can never really understand Korean demeanour/body language/facial expressions. Obviously this is because they grew up in a different culture on the other side of the planet, so it's just lack of knowledge on my part. But I hate the feeling of "lost in translation" I get just trying to read their faces and movements and not being able to discern all the information I usually can with people of similar cultural conditioning to me. This might be considered inappropriate to say considering how politically correct the world is becoming with people dismissing Nationalistic values as unnecessary and irrelevant in today's globalist world. But the tournaments I have enjoyed the most are the ones in which Swedish people win. I just LIKE knowing that Thorzain for example walked the same soil, speaks the same language went through similar cultural experiences etc. Because it confirms to me that we Swedish people (people from my area of residence, thus same race) are not inferior. We can compete with the best of the best and there is a certain level of comfort in that knowledge. Not to mention Pride, which surely also comes into play. Shamefully, for I know the "Us vs Them" mentality is doing nothing but damage the planet and human race as a whole. "The old appeals to racial, sexual and religious chauvinism and to rabid nationalism are beginning not to work. A new consciousness is developing which sees the earth as a single organism and recognizes that an organism at war with itself is doomed. We are one planet." - Carl Sagan whoah really went off on a tangent here. But I reckon it's relevant at the really core levels of what the OP is saying.
But you can't argue that your attitude of "turning off the TV" when the last foreigner hope didn't make it, is a bit selfish and maybe slightly controversial which I won't be accusing you of. You know what I'm referring to, I'm not gonna say it.
People like you are not appreciating the fact that the Koreans and foreigners have been working together - to mix Korean and Foreigners together - look at Nada, Ganzi, MC...the list just keeps going on and on. These guys left their Korean teams to merge with a Foreigner team. In fact they represent the team. Do you get it?
Your attitude I've even see happen with this other guy on one State of the Game. I don't remember his name, but he too completely lost interest in one of the MLG's when the last foreigner was knocked out. He admitted it himself "...no, I didn't bother watching the rest.." that was immensely, seriously dissapointing to me to see that a guy like that would only be interested as long as Koreans didn't win.
This is no longer nationalistic pride. It smells of something a lot darker and uglier.
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On April 10 2012 19:33 D_K_night wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 18:56 Kiichol wrote:On April 10 2012 18:04 naastyOne wrote:
Hello everyone,
While I do understand that TL webforum is quite a "certain type of people" community, there is so ridiculous amound of not called upon fail i just wanted to get in.
First of all, sport is about the SHOW, not determining who has the longest dick. While skill is an integral part of the Show, more skill doesn`t necessary means better show. When about half of matches are predictably Korean terran MMM&drops, you might as well not watch half of the tournament. Simple as that, pick the "best"(the highest in position or whatever criterium) don`t waste time on the else. Obviously this is an example, but you get the drill.
Secondly 95% to 99% will not see the difference between the "code A" and "code S" doing same BO and style of play, while they can very vell notice different styles of play and different BOs. What does it means? Basically that there is no need for 90% of tournament to be super mega pro skilled players for it to be entertaining, on contray, such tournament is less predictable, and thurs more interesting.
That is the thing that is widely seen world-wide. The lesser leagues, i mean every friging european country has 2-3 leagues of football. Strangely, they have enough fans and money to live their life, despite the fact that uniting them into one "mega" league would result in overall "higher skill".
Could continue with other sports, but pretty much all sports have their lowest competitions at inter schools or inter-university levels, with kids/students playing in free of study time, so the argument holds perfectly.
Now, Look at SC2 itself. How many of the "skilled" players praise HD/day9/whoever, and dislike Husky(H to the usky husky). Guesswhat, Husky pretty much has larger auditory than all other english casters brought together. Ever thought why? Well, he manages to do the "show" part better, while casting same replays as others.
Ever wondered why the for example Football World Cup is much more noticeable and attended event than European Cup, despite the fact that Europeans dominate football, and a part from Argentina and Brazil, pretty much no national team can stand up? Despite the fact that a lot of European underdogs are probably better than some/most of teams from other than Europe/SA region.
So what does this means? It means in an order to survive and develop any sport needs a balance of local and international events, local and international teams, and most importantly content for broad spectre of dedication, and international events should be international, it should be serving to promote and advertise the sport apon broad community.
The problem may be not the IPL itself, but the fact that there is a lack of the local/non-korean tournaments, (while there are very plenty of korean dominated tournaments) and IPL was looking like the missing part, but it was just pretty much ended up as MLG, so largely failed to provide something different and unique.
Lastly, the ones about "they need to get better" got it upside down. When korea has community, which generates enough revenue to pay large enough number of pro-gamers for a living, In NA/EU, it does not exists, so foreign players can not really dedicate themselves to SC2, because they also have education and work which is not connected to SC2 and takes time from it.
Which again brings down the question of how to build up the international community, and "international tournaments"(coupled with local ones) are a great thing to do, bot only if the "domination of one nation" is impossible, otherwise the entire event serves only as another local competition for that country.
And the words of IPL4 manager pretty much confirms it, IPL4 failed on it`s purpose of an international tournament. Still interesting event, but largely irrelevant. I agree. While some may argue that Nationalistic pride should not play a role in the support of E-Sports and that support should be gained on merit. Not based on where your born or what race you are. But I honestly just lose interest as soon as there are no foreigners left in a tournament. I just turn it off. For example, when Stephano got knocked out of IPL 4, I lost interest immediately. Turned off the stream and never looked back. Personally, not even I completely understand why this is the case. But if I were to guess it would be that I find it hard to relate to Koreans, the language barrier makes it difficult to fully appreciate their back-stories (except for the prominent figures MC, Nesta, MMA etc) thus some form of alienation occurs because to me that's one of the fundamental entertainment factors of E-sports. Also I can never really understand Korean demeanour/body language/facial expressions. Obviously this is because they grew up in a different culture on the other side of the planet, so it's just lack of knowledge on my part. But I hate the feeling of "lost in translation" I get just trying to read their faces and movements and not being able to discern all the information I usually can with people of similar cultural conditioning to me. This might be considered inappropriate to say considering how politically correct the world is becoming with people dismissing Nationalistic values as unnecessary and irrelevant in today's globalist world. But the tournaments I have enjoyed the most are the ones in which Swedish people win. I just LIKE knowing that Thorzain for example walked the same soil, speaks the same language went through similar cultural experiences etc. Because it confirms to me that we Swedish people (people from my area of residence, thus same race) are not inferior. We can compete with the best of the best and there is a certain level of comfort in that knowledge. Not to mention Pride, which surely also comes into play. Shamefully, for I know the "Us vs Them" mentality is doing nothing but damage the planet and human race as a whole. "The old appeals to racial, sexual and religious chauvinism and to rabid nationalism are beginning not to work. A new consciousness is developing which sees the earth as a single organism and recognizes that an organism at war with itself is doomed. We are one planet." - Carl Sagan whoah really went off on a tangent here. But I reckon it's relevant at the really core levels of what the OP is saying. But you can't argue that your attitude of "turning off the TV" when the last foreigner hope didn't make it, is a bit selfish and maybe slightly controversial which I won't be accusing you of. You know what I'm referring to, I'm not gonna say it. People like you are not appreciating the fact that the Koreans and foreigners have been working together - to mix Korean and Foreigners together - look at Nada, Ganzi, MC...the list just keeps going on and on. These guys left their Korean teams to merge with a Foreigner team. In fact they represent the team. Do you get it? Your attitude I've even see happen with this other guy on one State of the Game. I don't remember his name, but he too completely lost interest in one of the MLG's when the last foreigner was knocked out. He admitted it himself "...no, I didn't bother watching the rest.." that was immensely, seriously dissapointing to me to see that a guy like that would only be interested as long as Koreans didn't win. This is no longer nationalistic pride. It smells of something a lot darker and uglier.
It smells of people rooting for underdogs... how dare they!
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On April 10 2012 19:10 naastyOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 18:59 Uracil wrote:The problem may be not the IPL itself, but the fact that there is a lack of the local/non-korean tournaments, (while there are very plenty of korean dominated tournaments) and IPL was looking like the missing part, but it was just pretty much ended up as MLG, so largely failed to provide something different and unique. We have them. Like ONOG had no Koreans Shoutcraft had no Koreans. So if you want more of those go and support them.Tell others how great they are and that they should watch them. How did you came up with the idea that i don`t? And why so much hate?
Didn't want to target you. But it is a bit funny if people complain about to many koreans at IPL when on the same weekend there are 2 other tournaments with only foreigners attending.
Also IEM uses a continental qualifier system. I think its a good system but if you go to IEM thread you will often see complains about the lack of Korean talent.
Also one point. The reason for the amount of Koreans on this IPL is probably the GSTL Finals and that IPL paid for the teams.
I don't think we would see the same amount of Koreans if the had to pay like the western teams.
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I tink the problem is the skill-entertainment rate, which optimally should be 50-50 or 60-40 in favor of skill. MC, Huk, Naniwa, Stephano, Marineking are almost equally skilled and entertaining. They're successful as fuck. Nestea and MVP are less entertaining but they are(were) insanely skilled, that was enough to be loved by the masses.
There are tons of koreans, like alive who are not entertaining at all. They go in the booth, win their games and leave and being socially awkward in between. This isn't good either. They don't even attempt to please the crowd (of course not, they think being a progamer in SC2 means, you have to play good, but in the foreign world, that's not enough nowadays).
On the other side there are the foreigners like incontrol, TLO who are good entertainers, but bad players (yes, they're bad compared to the above mentioned). This is good for some foreigners, because they love them, but bad for koreans, and to the ones who love to see competition.
And then there are the ones who are bad players and have absolutely no character, but let's forget about them for now.
In conclusion, koreans should thrive to maintain their skill but become more known among the foreigners by interacting with them (like Dragon did), but other than that, they generally have the necessary skill to be a successful progamer.
Most of the foreigners should try to become better and if they're relatively unknown, they should try to gain fame somehow.
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On April 10 2012 07:06 yawnoC wrote:
Foreigners just need to work harder and stop making excuses. End of story.
So much this, it has been that way since forever, I'm actually surprised it took so long. If you would pick the 200 best koreans and 200 best foreigners the top 200 would probably be atleast 2/3 korean, probably a lot more.
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On April 10 2012 19:33 D_K_night wrote:
This is no longer nationalistic pride. It smells of something a lot darker and uglier.
I'm recognising it as a problem though. So I don't really appreciate your ominous conclusion.
I was merely trying to express my opinion in the hopes of gaining positive feedback so as to aid in increasing my level of understanding beyond it's current narrow confines. So that I can continue to enjoy E-sports even when it is majorly dominated by Koreans (unless the current trend reverses).
Surely this is a positive way to go about it?
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Er. Excepting clear cases of superiority (which are rare) there's not actually that big a difference. In the few representative tournaments where foreigners have been seeded ahead of Koreans (without fighting through the absurdly unlimited open brackets) said foreigners have produced pretty convincing victories.
However all this talk of Korean dominance when MLG has around a 60-70% Korean attendance and multiple S class players are placed in the open bracket (while half of the top foreigners are playing in Europe at the time) for whom half of their games are against BYOC ladder heroes... It's not exactly convincing, especially in single elimination brackets.
There are also certain foreigners who at their best are capable of utterly dominating even the best Koreans but whose skill level fluctuates rabidly (Naniwa, Thorzain, I'm looking at you).
So no. The skill gap isn't particularly big. There are very few games I've seen between top Koreans and top foreigners (note, not crowd favourites, I mean the genuine top teir players like Thorzain) where it has been completely one sided.
For the record, however, I love skilled players winning and am happy as long as the best player wins. MKP is fantastic to watch, but I just think that the foreign community is largely self defeating on how it approaches the so called "skill gap". It's certainly not appreciable enough that I can name more than maybe 10 or 15 Koreans that can guarantee (yes, guarantee) a win against ALL of the top foreigners in every single matchup.
10 players is not a lot.
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On April 10 2012 19:28 Kabras wrote:Foreigners get rolled all the time because they suck balls in comparison to koreans. How 'bout they stop the partying, drinking, etc and they begin practicing 10 hours a day? Oh, wait.. better restrict koreans from tourneys and lower the skill level so foreign players can do better with the same low ass skill. Your logic would fit nicely into Blizzard's game balance team
How about you stop living you life and work 10hours/day? follow your own advices? Oh, WAIT you won`t have time to complain about whinking "foreiners" on the forum :lol:
What is wrong with people willing to see more different players participate tournaments? What is this, rasism towards non-Korean perhaps?
Why do you hate Blizzard balancing, they nerfed you favourite race, and you`re too busy training too even think about switching over?
Why would Korean skill be affected anyhow by any tournament in which they do not participate, and it is outside Korea?
Aren`t they training as much as physically possible already and travelling and stress deprives them from the ability to practice,..
In general please less rasism and fanboyinsm please, and at least try to think your argument somewhat, okay?
On April 10 2012 18:56 Kiichol wrote:
I agree. While some may argue that Nationalistic pride should not play a role in the support of E-Sports and that support should be gained on merit. Not based on where your born or what race you are.
But I honestly just lose interest as soon as there are no foreigners left in a tournament. I just turn it off. For example, when Stephano got knocked out of IPL 4, I lost interest immediately. Turned off the stream and never looked back.
Well National culture is always part of the person, no meter what BS people say.
I`m Ukrainian who studies in Taiwan for 3 years, no race problems here, and i have some chinese friends,..
But, It is much easier to be conected to somebody that is speaking language you understand in interwieve/streams(english)
has same voice every time.
Korean Players, on the other hand do not speak english in intervievs in general, they love the freaking abreviation nicknames, MMA, MKP, MC, blah, blah, and our acces to their play is generally thrugh casters anyway, so...
And this problem woldn`t be bad if there was few Koreans, say Sqirtle, MKP and Nestea, so each differen race and style, woldbn be easy to keep track, but a croud of random Koreans doesn`t have a lot of personality, so unless you`re invested in one of them yourself, you just get the Korean #idonotcarewhy won the tournament. Kinda simple, and sad.
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I don't see this as a problem at all. My favorite player is Foxer, so I always cheer for him, even vs all foreigners.
I also like a number of other korean pros, so for me a tournament such as IPL was extremely interesting. I couldn't care less about foreigners who stand no chance vs koreans. The only entertainment in watching that is laughing at how the Koreans can win by doing almost anything they want. (Foxer vs WhiteRa triple reactor hellion build anyone?)
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Have teams (not just players) go over to Korea and study the Korean playing enviroment/routine. Take that work ethic for Starcraft 2 and bring it back to NA/Europe/wherever the team house is and make a carbon copy of it. Foreign players need to get better and getting better is putting in more practice and practice against GOOD players.
Remember when MC got knocked down to Code B and everyone was in a panic? He dropped down because he walked away from practice to participate in all the foreign tournaments, got back to Korea to find that he was leagues behind. '
My point is though that foreigners just need to get better. Send teams/team managers over to Korea and have them study these Korean teams that have some of the best players in the world. Write a handbook on how to have a successful and dominate team/team house and go from there. If teams can do this, the foreign scene will start to look a hell of a lot stronger.
And practice makes perfect. If you think you've practiced enough, practice a little more. And practice against someone with equal to more experience than you. You'll learn a lot. Though teams have been taking a small step forward in doing this by signing Korean players to their team.
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On April 10 2012 19:53 naastyOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 19:28 Kabras wrote:Foreigners get rolled all the time because they suck balls in comparison to koreans. How 'bout they stop the partying, drinking, etc and they begin practicing 10 hours a day? Oh, wait.. better restrict koreans from tourneys and lower the skill level so foreign players can do better with the same low ass skill. Your logic would fit nicely into Blizzard's game balance team How about you stop living you life and work 10hours/day? follow your own advices? Oh, WAIT you won`t have time to complain about whinking "foreiners" on the forum :lol: What is wrong with people willing to see more different players participate tournaments? What is this, rasism towards non-Korean perhaps? Why do you hate Blizzard balancing, they nerfed you favourite race, and you`re too busy training too even think about switching over? Why would Korean skill be affected anyhow by any tournament in which they do not participate, and it is outside Korea? Aren`t they training as much as physically possible already and travelling and stress deprives them from the ability to practice,.. In general please less rasism and fanboyinsm please, and at least try to think your argument somewhat, okay? Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 18:56 Kiichol wrote:
I agree. While some may argue that Nationalistic pride should not play a role in the support of E-Sports and that support should be gained on merit. Not based on where your born or what race you are.
But I honestly just lose interest as soon as there are no foreigners left in a tournament. I just turn it off. For example, when Stephano got knocked out of IPL 4, I lost interest immediately. Turned off the stream and never looked back.
Well National culture is always part of the person, no meter what BS people say. I`m Ukrainian who studies in Taiwan for 3 years, no race problems here, and i have some chinese friends,.. But, It is much easier to be conected to somebody that is speaking language you understand in interwieve/streams(english) has same voice every time. Korean Players, on the other hand do not speak english in intervievs in general, they love the freaking abreviation nicknames, MMA, MKP, MC, blah, blah, and our acces to their play is generally thrugh casters anyway, so... And this problem woldn`t be bad if there was few Koreans, say Sqirtle, MKP and Nestea, so each differen race and style, woldbn be easy to keep track, but a croud of random Koreans doesn`t have a lot of personality, so unless you`re invested in one of them yourself, you just get the Korean #idonotcarewhy won the tournament. Kinda simple, and sad.
Funny, I feel the same way in most foreigner only tournaments, except the generic Koreans are now replaced with generic Europeans.
To add a bit more content to this post, it seems like you just follow the European scene more closely and as such know the players better. I mean you list names like MMA, MKP, MC as if anyone didn't know who they are because of abbreviations?
What I mean is I have a few favourite players. Some of them are Koreans and some aren't. Aside from these guys, most of the other players are all pretty generic to me, Korean or not. I would imagine most people feel the same way.
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EPT
