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On April 10 2012 19:39 Uracil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 19:10 naastyOne wrote:On April 10 2012 18:59 Uracil wrote:The problem may be not the IPL itself, but the fact that there is a lack of the local/non-korean tournaments, (while there are very plenty of korean dominated tournaments) and IPL was looking like the missing part, but it was just pretty much ended up as MLG, so largely failed to provide something different and unique. We have them. Like ONOG had no Koreans Shoutcraft had no Koreans. So if you want more of those go and support them.Tell others how great they are and that they should watch them. How did you came up with the idea that i don`t? And why so much hate? Didn't want to target you. But it is a bit funny if people complain about to many koreans at IPL when on the same weekend there are 2 other tournaments with only foreigners attending. Also IEM uses a continental qualifier system. I think its a good system but if you go to IEM thread you will often see complains about the lack of Korean talent. Also one point. The reason for the amount of Koreans on this IPL is probably the GSTL Finals and that IPL paid for the teams. I don't think we would see the same amount of Koreans if the had to pay like the western teams.
Well, you probably noted i didn`t complain about a lot of Koreans, i mostly complained about the abundance of Terran, and a little bit lack of terran creativeness,( well okay MarineKingPrime`s 3*reactored factory was way better than usual MMM, still only one game,) in IPL a lot, pretty much not at all, just said it was not the type of event a lot of people in NA anticipated, after all it is in Las-Vegas.
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If the future for the Western SC2 scene is to have tournaments of Koreans competing exclusively against each other then the Western SC2 scene has no future. There needs to be a stronger foreign presence during the latter stages of tournaments or the game will die.
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On April 10 2012 20:06 cuppatea wrote:
If the future for the Western SC2 scene is to have tournaments of Koreans competing exclusively against each other then the Western SC2 scene has no future. There needs to be a stronger foreign presence during the latter stages of tournaments or the game will die.
Well, at the pace SC2 is going in Korea, it'll probably go the way of WC3 where all the Koreans either quit or leave Korea, leaving only the foreigner scene.
At least I think that's how it went.
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Remember McLovin...i am once in the future going to be the best Sc 2 player...like Flash was in Brood war, just that i am a foreigner, a german guy. i am going to dominate the Sc 2 scene in a few years, i have enough time to get better!
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On April 10 2012 20:02 naastyOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 19:39 Uracil wrote:On April 10 2012 19:10 naastyOne wrote:On April 10 2012 18:59 Uracil wrote:The problem may be not the IPL itself, but the fact that there is a lack of the local/non-korean tournaments, (while there are very plenty of korean dominated tournaments) and IPL was looking like the missing part, but it was just pretty much ended up as MLG, so largely failed to provide something different and unique. We have them. Like ONOG had no Koreans Shoutcraft had no Koreans. So if you want more of those go and support them.Tell others how great they are and that they should watch them. How did you came up with the idea that i don`t? And why so much hate? Didn't want to target you. But it is a bit funny if people complain about to many koreans at IPL when on the same weekend there are 2 other tournaments with only foreigners attending. Also IEM uses a continental qualifier system. I think its a good system but if you go to IEM thread you will often see complains about the lack of Korean talent. Also one point. The reason for the amount of Koreans on this IPL is probably the GSTL Finals and that IPL paid for the teams. I don't think we would see the same amount of Koreans if the had to pay like the western teams. Well, you probably noted i didn`t complain about a lot of Koreans, i mostly complained about the abundance of Terran, and a little bit lack of terran creativeness,( well okay MarineKingPrime`s 3*reactored factory was way better than usual MMM, still only one game,) in IPL a lot, pretty much not at all, just said it was not the type of event a lot of people in NA anticipated, after all it is in Las-Vegas.
Well you can't plan exititing matches and storylines. Sometimes you just have luck like in IPL 3 and you see a new player rise like Stephano and sometimes not. That just the game. I also enjoyed IPL 3 more because of their casting duos. DJWheat and Apollo were so great. But IPL 4 had the worst casting duos of all the major tournaments. But thats just me all lot of people seem to have enjoyed the casting.
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But IPL 4 had the worst casting duos of all the major tournaments.
If only every single tournament game was casted by Tasteless and Artosis :d
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On April 10 2012 20:11 illumn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 20:06 cuppatea wrote:
If the future for the Western SC2 scene is to have tournaments of Koreans competing exclusively against each other then the Western SC2 scene has no future. There needs to be a stronger foreign presence during the latter stages of tournaments or the game will die. Well, at the pace SC2 is going in Korea, it'll probably go the way of WC3 where all the Koreans either quit or leave Korea, leaving only the foreigner scene. At least I think that's how it went.
Yes, pretty much, although it seems fairly certain now that KeSPA/OGN are going to be picking up SC2, so I don't see the Korean dominance subsiding any time soon.
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Hey OP did you know that IEM banned korean players ? There is still hope for foreigners.
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It's quite simple, there are way more koreans playing, sc2, like way more compared to any other country and also a WAY higher percentage of them take the game seriously as an actual sport.
This has nothing to do with koreans being simply better at the game, but because they have a very different mindset of the game and it has grown more popular.
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I like watching high level play. If this means watch koreans only, then so be it. I don't really care about mid tier foreigners doing well in tournaments just because koreans were banned or because they got some sort of seed in the later stages of the tournament.
Foreigners should just start practicing more and stop complaining about balance every time they lose
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On April 10 2012 19:56 Fueled wrote:
Have teams (not just players) go over to Korea and study the Korean playing enviroment/routine. Take that work ethic for Starcraft 2 and bring it back to NA/Europe/wherever the team house is and make a carbon copy of it. Foreign players need to get better and getting better is putting in more practice and practice against GOOD players.
Remember when MC got knocked down to Code B and everyone was in a panic? He dropped down because he walked away from practice to participate in all the foreign tournaments, got back to Korea to find that he was leagues behind. '
My point is though that foreigners just need to get better. Send teams/team managers over to Korea and have them study these Korean teams that have some of the best players in the world. Write a handbook on how to have a succesful and dominate team/team house and go from there. If teams can do this, the foreign scene will start to look a hell of a lot stronger.
And practice makes perfect. If you think you've practiced enough, practice a little more. And practice against someone with equal to more experience than you. You'll learn a lot. Though teams have been taking a small step forward in doing this by signing Korean players to their team.
You hit the nail, the infrastrucure made Korean players scary, SC2 foreign mentality/training environment is still at the level of BW's dark times, where players cared only for each other, its true that its a solo competition but just like in sports there is a whole team behind each athlete.
When Idra went to Korea and started to practice in house couch told him what to do, and Idra was reluctant to change his habits etc. But in the end it payed off, Idra was one of few really good mechanical foreigners in Korea back in bw.
I dont actually believe many players in SC2 including Korean players have good guiding. When i see fOrGG doing stupid hotkeying and losing macro cycles because he doesnt find hotkeying his 3rd/4th and so on CC attractive and banking 10 mules and later hindering his multitasking(because he is clicking all them manually -_-). It shouldnt work like that, yes there are personal preferences but when something starts to hinder your performance it stops being preference it becomes a flaw. Because im kinda fixated on mechanical aspect of Starcraft, i see maaaany mistakes from all players Koreans and foreigners, and just wonder where the fuck is the coach to tell them all of this.
Bw teams seem to be way more rigoristic, and people refer to it negatively but in fact thats the best way to train, in any sport, athletes of all levels tend to vision their performance as a matter of "now" but they need coaches to inject the aspect of "future" in them. I perfetcly understand how painfull is to change habits that grew over MANY years, but good coach will envision the player a possibility of siginificant improvement. And thats only a mechanical aspect, now lets say strategies, metagame, psychological preparedness its all vital in any high level sport, and those players are not doing their hobbies, some of them are winning fucking loads of money or competeing for it, why not make it easier? AFAIK Bw teams are doing all of these.
Foreigners need to copy it, its investment in future, it won't work from day 1 but it will work in half a year, without this SC2 will be second BW (but less popular in the end).
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every serverpool should foster its own scene, but any kind of league or tournament and even the smallest cup must be accessible by anyone meeting the requirements.
if you want a more homegrown scene, make requirements like "must reside in EU" etc... but if koreans pay a visit to play, you better let them, anything else would be racism.
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[/QUOTE]
How about you stop living you life and work 10hours/day? follow your own advices? Oh, WAIT you won`t have time to complain about whinking "foreiners" on the forum :lol:
What is wrong with people willing to see more different players participate tournaments? What is this, rasism towards non-Korean perhaps?
Why do you hate Blizzard balancing, they nerfed you favourite race, and you`re too busy training too even think about switching over?
Why would Korean skill be affected anyhow by any tournament in which they do not participate, and it is outside Korea?
Aren`t they training as much as physically possible already and travelling and stress deprives them from the ability to practice,..
In general please less rasism and fanboyinsm please, and at least try to think your argument somewhat, okay?
[QUOTE][B]
Wow, Y U SO MAD? Truth hurts or what? Fanboyism? which fanboyism? I never mentioned any players. I was talking about the overall skill level of the tournament under the OP proposed rules, not the koreans' skill level. But you couldn't see that cuz you were too busy raging for no reason. I won't follow my own "advice" cause I'm not a progamer. It wasn't even an advice, just a personal opinion. And whether you like it or not, a FACT in many foreign players' cases. Your arguments are really retarded you know. You sustain an idea that would limit the number of players from Korea just because they are Korean and call ME, the guy who opposes it, racist? Talk about hypocrisy, LOL! You should take a few minutes to calm down before you reply. Your post made no sense and your arguments are dumb
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I don`t see why we have to limit them because they are korean. I mean really, they are simply better because they practice more. So should we ban players who practice more? Why turn this into a korean only thing...are you admitting the are genetically superior? Silly idea imo.
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I agree with the OP. The lack of foreign players made IPL4 a boring version of GSL to me.
Koreans are awesome at Starcraft 2, true. But I'd rather watch players who I feel emotionally attached to, than just watch players with high APM.
Take fotball for an example: I'd rather watch Sweden v Norway than Brazil v Spain.
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Foreigners don't like hard work, that's the diference betwen foreigners and koreans.
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Right now there exist two groups of people to generalize a bit:
Group 1: People who like to watch the highest possible gameplay, the best competition and who get hyped if 14 Koreans are in the top 16.
Group 2: People who like to watch Koreans as well, but are less interested in total Korean domination. They care most about watching players they can identify with and thus prefere top foreigners over most Koreans.
Right now Group 1 neglects the validity of Group 2's interests in respect of big tournaments.
If this continues we lose a lot of viewers from Group 2 which would be sad.
There has to be a compromise, not too many Koreans should be invited or able to qualify for a paid ticked via online qualification + foreign teams shouldnt pick up too many Koreans. The ratio of Liquid is fine, the ratio of SK is very bad.
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To be honest I think a lot of the western scene gets ignored anyways even by it's own fans. The gathering had far less pages in it's single lr thread that was used for all 3 days than IPL4 had in it's thread for just the last day. Most people probably don't remember that the winner of that lost embaressingly to drg at dreamhack valencia last year. Also there'e already continental segragation of the western scene, many casual NA fans couldn't tell you the nationality or team of any EU pros beyond those on Mouz, dignitas and possibly empire. I almost never hear anything about the latin american, sea or chinese scenes unless I specifically go looking for something about them. There really isn't a well promoted united western scene to rally around and just picking " whatever foreigner is left" to cheer for is kinda weird.
If the only foreign player left in a tournament is idk slivko or xigua who I know nothing about then I'm probably going to end up rooting for a korean player I've been watching closely in the gsl, gstl, ksl, esv weekly etc. I'm not always going to be more attached to the concept of a western player winning because I may have less attachment to that specific player than whoever is left for them to face.
Who people want to cheer for has more factors than just nationality. Canada has a depressingly small amount of top level pro players. I don't speak swedish and I don't know anything about that culture but I do enjoy watching Thorzain, Naniwa, Sjow and Sase play. They all have unique playstyles that are fun to watch and it makes me cheer for them even over fellow canadians like Drewbie.
My wife is your more typical casual watcher and tends to stop paying attention as soon as everyone on EG goes out. To her the team she likes means more than nationality. Hell be honest guys if the finals of a tournament was liquidTaeja vs EGJYP it would be just as interesting as if it was say kiwikaki vs heart.
To grow the scene and retain casual watcher's interest tournaments don't have to limit the amount of players any one region can send. Instead teams need to work on making players (regardless of nationality) more interesting. Tell me who somone is, where they came from in life and show me why I should start to care about them. People don't like MKP just becuase he's good, they like him because he's emotional, and funny and easy to empathise with. He has a storyline worth following and being emotionally invested in. Most players probably have some key story or trait that could become what they are known for other than just their spectacular play, teams and journalists should be working harder to let fans get to know players better.
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I still really don't understand the whole "Foreigners are easier to relate to!" bullshit. Is it just because they're white? Lots of Koreans display plenty of personality.
If you want to see more foreigners competing in events then how about the foreigners get good.
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On April 10 2012 07:05 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
is there seriously a thread about this? Why not just ban Korea all together... No, the only thing that we can do is get better and dominate Korea, not restrict the amount of players they can send off to compete in our tournaments. this is just stupid...
Exactly. Being a 'white dude' I'd really love it if we could compete with the koreans, but looks like atm we cant. Kinda boring for me when watching big international tourney (IPL 4 for eg most recently) when we all drop out - I dont follow the GSL/korea scene much so its hard for me to root for players I dont know.
We just gotta gotta gotta get better!
Im looking at you Stephano! And white-ra, cmon dude win more shit i *hearts* you
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EPT
