On January 12 2012 04:27 BlackJack wrote: Since people seem to be misinterpreting my post, allow me to clarify: I am not saying the kid's life was in danger so he doesn't have a right to stab the other kid. I am saying that the kid's life wasn't in danger but he STILL had the right to stab the other kid, imo.
True. Reading this thread you would think that no one was a ever a kid before. You can't get a bully to back off by fighting back. Fighting back results in an escalation of violence, which results in the victim getting even more severely beaten to an inch of his life. Not to mention the presence of the bully's friends guarantees it won't be a fair fight regardless.
Your life doesn't need to be in danger to justify killing someone in self defense or the defense of others. If someone breaks into your house and attempts to rape your daughter, you have license to kill. I'm sure even the most left-wing bleeding-heart liberal can agree with this.
Overall, the student was not charged due to feeling the threat of bodily harm if not life. Hence he has the right if required to defend himself both as a person and in a court of law.
Is it wrong for men/women to carry guns with them on the street? No it is not. It absolutely legal to do so as long as you hold a concealed weapon permit. Did this child? Most likely he did not have that permit. With that, he could face charges of concealment of a deadly weapon without permit.
Did this child report to the school and its officials that he was being bullied, felt that he was in bodily harm if not loss of life? If he did and the school didn't investigate or look into the matters, then we have a separate case against the school system and its administration for negligence.
Overall, the child who lived should end up on probation with fines for the concealment of a deadly weapon.
If the prosecution really wanted to go after it, they could have gone after premeditated murder since he was carrying a weapon without a permit, but then the defense could turn that around and state the same as I did for individuals carrying weapons every day with and without permits for protection.
He started feeling light headed and he had to escape somehow but he couldn't. He tried to avoid a confrontation, but nope. There have been instances in which people have been beaten to death. He was being struck in the head repeatedly... It would have been either he dies or the hostile dies at that point.
On January 12 2012 04:27 BlackJack wrote: Since people seem to be misinterpreting my post, allow me to clarify: I am not saying the kid's life was in danger so he doesn't have a right to stab the other kid. I am saying that the kid's life wasn't in danger but he STILL had the right to stab the other kid, imo.
That's exactly the right viewpoint to have
On January 12 2012 05:47 FT.aCt)Sony wrote: Overall, the student was not charged due to feeling the threat of bodily harm if not life. Hence he has the right if required to defend himself both as a person and in a court of law.
Is it wrong for men/women to carry guns with them on the street? No it is not. It absolutely legal to do so as long as you hold a concealed weapon permit. Did this child? Most likely he did not have that permit. With that, he could face charges of concealment of a deadly weapon without permit.
Did this child report to the school and its officials that he was being bullied, felt that he was in bodily harm if not loss of life? If he did and the school didn't investigate or look into the matters, then we have a separate case against the school system and its administration for negligence.
Overall, the child who lived should end up on probation with fines for the concealment of a deadly weapon.
If the prosecution really wanted to go after it, they could have gone after premeditated murder since he was carrying a weapon without a permit, but then the defense could turn that around and state the same as I did for individuals carrying weapons every day with and without permits for protection.
I've done the whole logical argument thing in this thread, and my desire for that has been satisfied. (bro hugs to Gobalt)
However I feel the need to say one more thing, disregarding whether this was self-defense in a life threating situation or not. How can anyone believe that the 16 year old kid being killed was the correct outcome? The kid was a jerk. He was a bully and picked on someone that was smaller than he was. That doesn't deserve the punishment of death. I can understand people saying, based on the situation, his death was justified and be glad that the victim wasn't punished. Can anyone really say that the loss of a minor's life in a bullying situation was really the best outcome? Is anyone truely happy that a "bully" young kid had his life taken from him?
On January 12 2012 07:16 Kangbao wrote: I've done the whole logical argument thing in this thread, and my desire for that has been satisfied. (bro hugs to Gobalt)
However I feel the need to say one more thing, disregarding whether this was self-defense in a life threating situation or not. How can anyone believe that the 16 year old kid being killed was the correct outcome? The kid was a jerk. He was a bully and picked on someone that was smaller than he was. That doesn't deserve the punishment of death. I can understand people saying, based on the situation, his death was justified and be glad that the victim wasn't punished. Can anyone really say that the loss of a minor's life in a bullying situation was really the best outcome? Is anyone truely happy that a "bully" young kid had his life taken from him?
No,I'm not too familiar with what actually happened but it seems like once someone pulls a knife and you are with a group of people you could get away without dying.
On January 12 2012 07:16 Kangbao wrote: I've done the whole logical argument thing in this thread, and my desire for that has been satisfied. (bro hugs to Gobalt)
However I feel the need to say one more thing, disregarding whether this was self-defense in a life threating situation or not. How can anyone believe that the 16 year old kid being killed was the correct outcome? The kid was a jerk. He was a bully and picked on someone that was smaller than he was. That doesn't deserve the punishment of death. I can understand people saying, based on the situation, his death was justified and be glad that the victim wasn't punished. Can anyone really say that the loss of a minor's life in a bullying situation was really the best outcome? Is anyone truely happy that a "bully" young kid had his life taken from him?
No,I'm not too familiar with what actually happened but it seems like once someone pulls a knife and you are with a group of people you could get away without dying.
Of course the guy could have gotten away. I'm trying to gauge how many of these comments are knee jerk reactions versus actual feelings. Many of the comments are along the lines of glee at the guy's death. Many of them are good ridience, the bully deserved death.
I'm not asking was it the only outcome, just are people really happy with the kid's death.
Some people really are happy when a bully dies. I feel bad that anyone died, because there are few things a 16 year old can do that deserve death. From what I read, he was a huge asshole, and I know the type well, but I wouldn't really want them dead. Some people just don't really think about what they're saying before they say it, and it come off like that.
On January 12 2012 07:16 Kangbao wrote: I've done the whole logical argument thing in this thread, and my desire for that has been satisfied. (bro hugs to Gobalt)
However I feel the need to say one more thing, disregarding whether this was self-defense in a life threating situation or not. How can anyone believe that the 16 year old kid being killed was the correct outcome? The kid was a jerk. He was a bully and picked on someone that was smaller than he was. That doesn't deserve the punishment of death. I can understand people saying, based on the situation, his death was justified and be glad that the victim wasn't punished. Can anyone really say that the loss of a minor's life in a bullying situation was really the best outcome? Is anyone truely happy that a "bully" young kid had his life taken from him?
No,I'm not too familiar with what actually happened but it seems like once someone pulls a knife and you are with a group of people you could get away without dying.
Of course the guy could have gotten away. I'm trying to gauge how many of these comments are knee jerk reactions versus actual feelings. Many of the comments are along the lines of glee at the guy's death. Many of them are good ridience, the bully deserved death.
I'm not asking was it the only outcome, just are people really happy with the kid's death.
I'm not okay with the kid dying, but i'm okay with the logic of "when you have been bullying someone for a full year and they pull a knife on you when you say you are going to beat them up, and instead of leaving you still try to fight them, and you get stabbed and die"
I don't agree with what the bullied kid did to his aggressor. I don't think he should be punished though (at least not by the law) What he did was stupid and if I had to guess, in the future, he will regret what he did.
I did something like this in 6th grade and got off scott free. Not killed but almost bully needed many staples and long hospital stay. Funny no one ever messed with me ever after that. I used a peice of glass not a knife.
On January 12 2012 07:16 Kangbao wrote: I've done the whole logical argument thing in this thread, and my desire for that has been satisfied. (bro hugs to Gobalt)
However I feel the need to say one more thing, disregarding whether this was self-defense in a life threating situation or not. How can anyone believe that the 16 year old kid being killed was the correct outcome? The kid was a jerk. He was a bully and picked on someone that was smaller than he was. That doesn't deserve the punishment of death. I can understand people saying, based on the situation, his death was justified and be glad that the victim wasn't punished. Can anyone really say that the loss of a minor's life in a bullying situation was really the best outcome? Is anyone truely happy that a "bully" young kid had his life taken from him?
No,I'm not too familiar with what actually happened but it seems like once someone pulls a knife and you are with a group of people you could get away without dying.
Of course the guy could have gotten away. I'm trying to gauge how many of these comments are knee jerk reactions versus actual feelings. Many of the comments are along the lines of glee at the guy's death. Many of them are good ridience, the bully deserved death.
I'm not asking was it the only outcome, just are people really happy with the kid's death.
Death is a known risk when you lay hands on someone. You can kill them easy and should expect reciprocity. All it takes is kid to fall backwards and bust his head on the curb and one can die in a blink of an eye. Are you saying taking this risk shoulnt be met with extreme response/defense in kind? Your life may depend on you or him. Deserve has nothing to do with it but rather survival no?
On January 12 2012 07:16 Kangbao wrote: I've done the whole logical argument thing in this thread, and my desire for that has been satisfied. (bro hugs to Gobalt)
However I feel the need to say one more thing, disregarding whether this was self-defense in a life threating situation or not. How can anyone believe that the 16 year old kid being killed was the correct outcome? The kid was a jerk. He was a bully and picked on someone that was smaller than he was. That doesn't deserve the punishment of death. I can understand people saying, based on the situation, his death was justified and be glad that the victim wasn't punished. Can anyone really say that the loss of a minor's life in a bullying situation was really the best outcome? Is anyone truely happy that a "bully" young kid had his life taken from him?
No,I'm not too familiar with what actually happened but it seems like once someone pulls a knife and you are with a group of people you could get away without dying.
Of course the guy could have gotten away. I'm trying to gauge how many of these comments are knee jerk reactions versus actual feelings. Many of the comments are along the lines of glee at the guy's death. Many of them are good ridience, the bully deserved death.
I'm not asking was it the only outcome, just are people really happy with the kid's death.
I don't know about "deserve" but it's a known risk when you lay hands on someone. You can kill them easy and should expect reciprocity. All it takes is kid to fall backwards and bust his head on the curb and one can die in a blink of an eye. Are you saying taking this risk shoulnt be met with extreme response/defense in kind? Your life may depend on you or him. Deserve has nothing to do with it but rather survival no?
It is a risk you assume, but that's not what i'm talking about. I'm not asking whether or not the kid reacted in the right way. If you look back through pages, many people say things like,
"if your a bully you deserve it imo."
"One less piece of shit on this planet, good job."
Things like that. People seem to be expressing joy at the death of this kid. I'm asking if anyone is actually happy that he is dead or if those comments were just knee jerks.
I liken street fighting to playing Russian Roulette. Does a guy who shoots himself playing Russian Roulette deserve to die? That may help you understand "deserve" in this context maybe.
As far as people expressing joy - well that's cause we are taught to hate from little perfect kids on. Not thier fault.
On January 12 2012 07:16 Kangbao wrote: I've done the whole logical argument thing in this thread, and my desire for that has been satisfied. (bro hugs to Gobalt)
However I feel the need to say one more thing, disregarding whether this was self-defense in a life threating situation or not. How can anyone believe that the 16 year old kid being killed was the correct outcome? The kid was a jerk. He was a bully and picked on someone that was smaller than he was. That doesn't deserve the punishment of death. I can understand people saying, based on the situation, his death was justified and be glad that the victim wasn't punished. Can anyone really say that the loss of a minor's life in a bullying situation was really the best outcome? Is anyone truely happy that a "bully" young kid had his life taken from him?
No,I'm not too familiar with what actually happened but it seems like once someone pulls a knife and you are with a group of people you could get away without dying.
Of course the guy could have gotten away. I'm trying to gauge how many of these comments are knee jerk reactions versus actual feelings. Many of the comments are along the lines of glee at the guy's death. Many of them are good ridience, the bully deserved death.
I'm not asking was it the only outcome, just are people really happy with the kid's death.
I don't know about "deserve" but it's a known risk when you lay hands on someone. You can kill them easy and should expect reciprocity. All it takes is kid to fall backwards and bust his head on the curb and one can die in a blink of an eye. Are you saying taking this risk shoulnt be met with extreme response/defense in kind? Your life may depend on you or him. Deserve has nothing to do with it but rather survival no?
It is a risk you assume, but that's not what i'm talking about. I'm not asking whether or not the kid reacted in the right way. If you look back through pages, many people say things like,
"if your a bully you deserve it imo."
"One less piece of shit on this planet, good job."
Things like that. People seem to be expressing joy at the death of this kid. I'm asking if anyone is actually happy that he is dead or if those comments were just knee jerks.
I used to be a bully but then I took an arrow to the knee. That's a joke.
But when people say "he deserved it" it's only natural being happy about his death. Why not be happy about death of someone who was violent ]
On January 12 2012 07:16 Kangbao wrote: I've done the whole logical argument thing in this thread, and my desire for that has been satisfied. (bro hugs to Gobalt)
However I feel the need to say one more thing, disregarding whether this was self-defense in a life threating situation or not. How can anyone believe that the 16 year old kid being killed was the correct outcome? The kid was a jerk. He was a bully and picked on someone that was smaller than he was. That doesn't deserve the punishment of death. I can understand people saying, based on the situation, his death was justified and be glad that the victim wasn't punished. Can anyone really say that the loss of a minor's life in a bullying situation was really the best outcome? Is anyone truely happy that a "bully" young kid had his life taken from him?
No,I'm not too familiar with what actually happened but it seems like once someone pulls a knife and you are with a group of people you could get away without dying.
Of course the guy could have gotten away. I'm trying to gauge how many of these comments are knee jerk reactions versus actual feelings. Many of the comments are along the lines of glee at the guy's death. Many of them are good ridience, the bully deserved death.
I'm not asking was it the only outcome, just are people really happy with the kid's death.
I don't know about "deserve" but it's a known risk when you lay hands on someone. You can kill them easy and should expect reciprocity. All it takes is kid to fall backwards and bust his head on the curb and one can die in a blink of an eye. Are you saying taking this risk shoulnt be met with extreme response/defense in kind? Your life may depend on you or him. Deserve has nothing to do with it but rather survival no?
It is a risk you assume, but that's not what i'm talking about. I'm not asking whether or not the kid reacted in the right way. If you look back through pages, many people say things like,
"if your a bully you deserve it imo."
"One less piece of shit on this planet, good job."
Things like that. People seem to be expressing joy at the death of this kid. I'm asking if anyone is actually happy that he is dead or if those comments were just knee jerks.
I can appreciate that people who were bullied intensely find joy that someone like their own bullies finally got serious repercussions. Usually bullies get away clear for most things because its not taken seriously. Fact is bullying can cause serious emotional and if its taken to the physical level of course physical damage too. Say youre raped and your rapist gets away without punishment (either because you didnt work up the nerve to report it to the police or hes not convicted for lack of proof, or whatever else). Do you find it hard to understand that you would want a person like that to suffer for what theyve done?
On January 12 2012 07:16 Kangbao wrote: I've done the whole logical argument thing in this thread, and my desire for that has been satisfied. (bro hugs to Gobalt)
However I feel the need to say one more thing, disregarding whether this was self-defense in a life threating situation or not. How can anyone believe that the 16 year old kid being killed was the correct outcome? The kid was a jerk. He was a bully and picked on someone that was smaller than he was. That doesn't deserve the punishment of death. I can understand people saying, based on the situation, his death was justified and be glad that the victim wasn't punished. Can anyone really say that the loss of a minor's life in a bullying situation was really the best outcome? Is anyone truely happy that a "bully" young kid had his life taken from him?
No,I'm not too familiar with what actually happened but it seems like once someone pulls a knife and you are with a group of people you could get away without dying.
Of course the guy could have gotten away. I'm trying to gauge how many of these comments are knee jerk reactions versus actual feelings. Many of the comments are along the lines of glee at the guy's death. Many of them are good ridience, the bully deserved death.
I'm not asking was it the only outcome, just are people really happy with the kid's death.
My sentiments exactly.
A lot of posters in this thread are dealing exclusively in absolutes, and it’s not helpful. I think that it’s perfectly reasonable to feel regret that Dylan Nuno was killed without feeling like Jorge Saavedra is a heartless murderer. To express dismay over the one student’s death is not to pass judgment on the second student’s self defense.
Several individuals in this thread, however, think that it is. They want to frame Dylan Nuno as some diabolical monster who deserved to die for his crimes. How someone can conclude that about a teenager whom they have never met is beyond me. (I think they are putting far too much stock in a news article. What adult netizen in the world today doesn’t approach the news critically, with a healthy dose of skepticism? But that’s tangential to my actual point.) The point that I think needs to be made (and made again and again as long as comments like “lol one less douche in the world!” continue) is that, at best, this was an terrible tragedy and an avoidable loss of young life. It was not a glorious triumph of good versus evil. It was a desperate act by a student who probably thought that he had no other options and it cost another student his life. It was horrific all around.
It’s my opinion, based on the different sources and accounts that I have read concerning this case, that Saavedra did his absolute best to avoid fighting Nuno, which is commendable. It is also my opinion that his choice to employ a deadly weapon was not a good choice but that it was nevertheless an understandable choice given his circumstances. I do not applaud how Saavedra ended the confrontation, but I would not consider him a premeditating murderer by any stretch. He did not want his encounter to Nuno to begin, much less to end how it did. Saavedra himself is not at all why I find this thread so infuriating.
My anger in this thread is reserved for three groups:
1) The school and home community that allowed this to happen, up to and including the bus driver, who I have a hard time believing was unaware of what was happening when half of the bus piled out at a random stop.
2) The judge who accepted the motion that Saavedra be immune to prosecution based on the god awful “Stand Your Ground” law. I think a trial by his peers would have communicated the seriousness of Saavedra’s actions, even if he was completely acquitted. I also think it would have brought more scrutiny to the case, raised the issues involved into public consciousness, and cleared up a lot of uncertainties about what happened on and leading up to that day—not to mention it seems like it would have provided far more closure to the family of Dylan Nuno. Instead, the case was dismissed because the NRA found a state that would vote for its pet law to greatly expand citizen’s rights to lawfully kill one another.
3) All you assholes in this thread who are glad the bully is dead. I am aware that bullying is a real problem. Brutally killing high-schooler bullies is not a real solution. I have no idea what would possess an adult to rejoice in the death of a child, even if—gasp, shock!—that child was acting like a genuine douchebag. No idea.
I understand wanting your tormentor to suffer. Not the transference of that hate to all people classified as bullies. Even then, he was 16, everyone is stupid at 16. I find I cannot even fathom being glad at the death of a kid.
On January 12 2012 07:16 Kangbao wrote: I've done the whole logical argument thing in this thread, and my desire for that has been satisfied. (bro hugs to Gobalt)
However I feel the need to say one more thing, disregarding whether this was self-defense in a life threating situation or not. How can anyone believe that the 16 year old kid being killed was the correct outcome? The kid was a jerk. He was a bully and picked on someone that was smaller than he was. That doesn't deserve the punishment of death. I can understand people saying, based on the situation, his death was justified and be glad that the victim wasn't punished. Can anyone really say that the loss of a minor's life in a bullying situation was really the best outcome? Is anyone truely happy that a "bully" young kid had his life taken from him?
No,I'm not too familiar with what actually happened but it seems like once someone pulls a knife and you are with a group of people you could get away without dying.
Of course the guy could have gotten away. I'm trying to gauge how many of these comments are knee jerk reactions versus actual feelings. Many of the comments are along the lines of glee at the guy's death. Many of them are good ridience, the bully deserved death.
I'm not asking was it the only outcome, just are people really happy with the kid's death.
I don't know about "deserve" but it's a known risk when you lay hands on someone. You can kill them easy and should expect reciprocity. All it takes is kid to fall backwards and bust his head on the curb and one can die in a blink of an eye. Are you saying taking this risk shoulnt be met with extreme response/defense in kind? Your life may depend on you or him. Deserve has nothing to do with it but rather survival no?
It is a risk you assume, but that's not what i'm talking about. I'm not asking whether or not the kid reacted in the right way. If you look back through pages, many people say things like,
"if your a bully you deserve it imo."
"One less piece of shit on this planet, good job."
Things like that. People seem to be expressing joy at the death of this kid. I'm asking if anyone is actually happy that he is dead or if those comments were just knee jerks.
I can appreciate that people who were bullied intensely find joy that someone like their own bullies finally got serious repercussions. Usually bullies get away clear for most things because its not taken seriously. Fact is bullying can cause serious emotional and if its taken to the physical level of course physical damage too. Say youre raped and your rapist gets away without punishment (either because you didnt work up the nerve to report it to the police or hes not convicted for lack of proof, or whatever else). Do you find it hard to understand that you would want a person like that to suffer for what theyve done?
Sure, I can imagine a type of person who enjoyed the story of Nuno's death because he or she was bullied as a child. Their joy is still unacceptable. Rejoicing in violence toward a person because that person belongs to a category of human being that you despise is unacceptable, it's low, and it has no place in any conversation about justice, much less any justice system.
EPT
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