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On January 12 2012 00:39 KryptoStorm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 00:00 Detwiler wrote:
Everybody's like read the case. Well I did. Sounds like oh I dont know every freakin school fight ever. Its the 12 wounds that does it in for me. If they fought kid got scared stabbed him and he happened to bleed to death before paramedics got there. Okay self defense he gets a pass. 12 times though? Naw dude thats murder sorry. Its like if some body breaks into my house and I shoot them. They go down and bleed to death before police get there. Self defense. But if he breaks in I shoot him and as he lays there bleeding i walk over and put another in his head thats murder. Someone who understands, thank god.
Understands what..? That a 15 year-old felt so scared that he was forced to bring a knife, and then when he used it he obviously couldn't "handle" it like a trained assassin and stop after 1 stab? You have no idea what kind of fear he felt, what kind of insane amount of endorphins were plunging through the veins of someone who clearly was experiencing the highest form of terror for his own safety to even be in the situation to begin with.
Honestly even if he was much older... there is a reason somethign like 33%~ of U.S. war vets experience post-traumatic stress disorder. Killing/extreme violence is not something you can do sensibly, rationally, or casually with no consequence unless you're a sociopath. You can't predict what will come out, how it will come out, the lasting-effects, what (if much) was going on through his mind other than survival instincts and a cocktail of fear, adrenaline, and rage.
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On January 12 2012 01:12 Dizmaul wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 00:59 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:51 Myles wrote:On January 12 2012 00:49 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:34 Myles wrote:
I'm going to paraphrase a bit here, but this is part of the report that has been posted numerous times.
"Jorge got off the bus and was walking to his friends house when Dylan approached from behind and punched Jorge in the back of the head. Jorge kept walking to avoid the confrontation and Dylan started throwing more punches to the back of the head. At this time Jorge heard Dylan's friends shouting to 'Hit him again' and 'Hit him harder'. Their voices were getting louder and closer and Jorge was reportedly starting to feel light headed. Jorge felt his life was threatened and thought the other boys might jump in since there were so many people around. This is when he reached for his pocket knife, bent forward, and stabbed Dylan with his knife as the punches continued. Evem after that, he heard Dylan telling his friends 'Go get him'.
Keep in mind, this is after he already tried to get off the bus early to avoid the fight.
that sounds like a very unlikely and one-sided plee. although if that is a 100% accurate statement then i guess he didn't have much of a choice. however, i still think he should be punished for using deadly force. it's unfortunate, but in my opinion the world would be a more f**ked up and scary place if people were simply allowed to kill anyone who initiated an old fashioned fight with them. i have friends who are nice, but they get into a lot of 'nothing' fights when they're drunk. if you go to drink in a bar, this sort of thing is normal. it would scare the hell out of me if i found out that it was legal for some guy to turn around and stick a broken bottle into my friend's throat... that's a f***ed up world. I think it's more fucked up that you think it's ok for people to start fights and put the responsibility on the victim to not hurt their attacker. there's a pretty big gap between hitting someone and KILLING them... surely we can agree on that. it's a slipperly slope. if you can retaliate a straight-forward punch with a stab wound to the heart, how long before you're allowed to kill someone for farting in an elevator? You are clearly trolling now. You cant still believe that this kid was just in a good ole fashion fist fight. He was gang beat on after running for his life. I know your guys in the UK think bully's are guys who give wedgies and wet willy's and shit. That's not how it is over here in the US shit escalates fast. We has way less respect for life and there are no lines to cross. You guys can cry all you want about how it should be, but that's just how it is. Ive been witness to many intense fights that never stopped at just fist's. It always escalated to getting bat's, knife's, pipe's, anything you can hit people with. Ive seen a kid brutally smash in another kids face with a pool ball when I was 15. Life is a precious thing and we are taught to protect our own life by any means necessary. And almost never can you do that with your words and feeling because for some reason most people only respond to violence. The Attacker of the kids in this article didn't even stop attacking while getting stabbed. Just shows how far people are willing to go over here.
Where the fuck do you live that you witnessed so many fights like this between kids that escalates into massive damage being done to people?
And to the person who brought up the soccer player analogy Lol like comparing two grown men in an official match that have plenty of people to intervene if it ever gets out of hand to a kid who is alone vs a bully and whatever lackeys he has around to watch.
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On January 12 2012 01:30 Dizmaul wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 01:22 HULKAMANIA wrote:On January 12 2012 01:12 Dizmaul wrote:On January 12 2012 00:59 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:51 Myles wrote:On January 12 2012 00:49 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:34 Myles wrote:
I'm going to paraphrase a bit here, but this is part of the report that has been posted numerous times.
"Jorge got off the bus and was walking to his friends house when Dylan approached from behind and punched Jorge in the back of the head. Jorge kept walking to avoid the confrontation and Dylan started throwing more punches to the back of the head. At this time Jorge heard Dylan's friends shouting to 'Hit him again' and 'Hit him harder'. Their voices were getting louder and closer and Jorge was reportedly starting to feel light headed. Jorge felt his life was threatened and thought the other boys might jump in since there were so many people around. This is when he reached for his pocket knife, bent forward, and stabbed Dylan with his knife as the punches continued. Evem after that, he heard Dylan telling his friends 'Go get him'.
Keep in mind, this is after he already tried to get off the bus early to avoid the fight.
that sounds like a very unlikely and one-sided plee. although if that is a 100% accurate statement then i guess he didn't have much of a choice. however, i still think he should be punished for using deadly force. it's unfortunate, but in my opinion the world would be a more f**ked up and scary place if people were simply allowed to kill anyone who initiated an old fashioned fight with them. i have friends who are nice, but they get into a lot of 'nothing' fights when they're drunk. if you go to drink in a bar, this sort of thing is normal. it would scare the hell out of me if i found out that it was legal for some guy to turn around and stick a broken bottle into my friend's throat... that's a f***ed up world. I think it's more fucked up that you think it's ok for people to start fights and put the responsibility on the victim to not hurt their attacker. there's a pretty big gap between hitting someone and KILLING them... surely we can agree on that. it's a slipperly slope. if you can retaliate a straight-forward punch with a stab wound to the heart, how long before you're allowed to kill someone for farting in an elevator? You are clearly trolling now. You cant still believe that this kid was just in a good ole fashion fist fight. He was gang beat on after running for his life. I know your guys in the UK think bully's are guys who give wedgies and wet willy's and shit. That's not how it is over here in the US shit escalates fast. We has way less respect for life and there are no lines to cross. You guys can cry all you want about how it should be, but that's just how it is. Ive been witness to many intense fights that never stopped at just fist's. It always escalated to getting bat's knife's pipe's, anything you can hit people with. Ive seen a kid brutally smash in another kids face with a pool ball when I was 15. Life is a precious thing and we are taught to protect our own life by any means necessary. And almost never can you do that with your words and feeling because for some reason most people only respond to violence. The Attacker of the kids in this article didn't even stop attacking while getting stabbed. Just shows how far people are willing to go over here. The only person to ever touch Saavedra in their encounter was Nuno. Furthermore, Saavedra was never surrounded. source.Another point to clarify: Saavedra was not acquitted on normal self-defense laws. He was acquitted in accordance to the "Stand Your Ground" law, which is a law that the National Rifle Association was "heavily involved" in writing and lobbying through the Florida State Congress under Jeb Bush. It is a law that greatly expands the right of a gun-owner (or a knife-wielder in this case) to kill people, even unarmed people, who threaten him or her. In a state without this law, Saavedra would certainly have been charged—not necessarily convicted. But he would have been charged. Fortunately for him he received unintentional legal assistance from a bunch of Republicans who don't want to go to jail when they shoot the minorities who are out to trespass on their sacred rights to private property. source. Sorry i didn't think the original article had typo's In his testimony at the trial, Saavedra testified that Nuno told him, "Today's the day" — meaning they were going to fight — when he got on the bus. Nuno then followed him off the bus and a group of students circled the two, egging them on, according to reports. Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/florida-teen-jorge-saavedra-won-t-charged-murder-bus-stop-stabbing-article-1.1001277#ixzz1jATCVH8H
So from the sentence: "Nuno then followed him off the bus and a group of students circled the two, egging them on" you concluded that Saavedra was "gang beat on after running for his life."
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On January 12 2012 01:35 Slaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 01:12 Dizmaul wrote:On January 12 2012 00:59 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:51 Myles wrote:On January 12 2012 00:49 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:34 Myles wrote:
I'm going to paraphrase a bit here, but this is part of the report that has been posted numerous times.
"Jorge got off the bus and was walking to his friends house when Dylan approached from behind and punched Jorge in the back of the head. Jorge kept walking to avoid the confrontation and Dylan started throwing more punches to the back of the head. At this time Jorge heard Dylan's friends shouting to 'Hit him again' and 'Hit him harder'. Their voices were getting louder and closer and Jorge was reportedly starting to feel light headed. Jorge felt his life was threatened and thought the other boys might jump in since there were so many people around. This is when he reached for his pocket knife, bent forward, and stabbed Dylan with his knife as the punches continued. Evem after that, he heard Dylan telling his friends 'Go get him'.
Keep in mind, this is after he already tried to get off the bus early to avoid the fight.
that sounds like a very unlikely and one-sided plee. although if that is a 100% accurate statement then i guess he didn't have much of a choice. however, i still think he should be punished for using deadly force. it's unfortunate, but in my opinion the world would be a more f**ked up and scary place if people were simply allowed to kill anyone who initiated an old fashioned fight with them. i have friends who are nice, but they get into a lot of 'nothing' fights when they're drunk. if you go to drink in a bar, this sort of thing is normal. it would scare the hell out of me if i found out that it was legal for some guy to turn around and stick a broken bottle into my friend's throat... that's a f***ed up world. I think it's more fucked up that you think it's ok for people to start fights and put the responsibility on the victim to not hurt their attacker. there's a pretty big gap between hitting someone and KILLING them... surely we can agree on that. it's a slipperly slope. if you can retaliate a straight-forward punch with a stab wound to the heart, how long before you're allowed to kill someone for farting in an elevator? You are clearly trolling now. You cant still believe that this kid was just in a good ole fashion fist fight. He was gang beat on after running for his life. I know your guys in the UK think bully's are guys who give wedgies and wet willy's and shit. That's not how it is over here in the US shit escalates fast. We has way less respect for life and there are no lines to cross. You guys can cry all you want about how it should be, but that's just how it is. Ive been witness to many intense fights that never stopped at just fist's. It always escalated to getting bat's, knife's, pipe's, anything you can hit people with. Ive seen a kid brutally smash in another kids face with a pool ball when I was 15. Life is a precious thing and we are taught to protect our own life by any means necessary. And almost never can you do that with your words and feeling because for some reason most people only respond to violence. The Attacker of the kids in this article didn't even stop attacking while getting stabbed. Just shows how far people are willing to go over here. Where the fuck do you live that you witnessed so many fights like this between kids that escalates into massive damage being done to people? And to the person who brought up the soccer player analogy Lol like comparing two grown men in an official match that have plenty of people to intervene if it ever gets out of hand to a kid who is alone vs a bully and whatever lackeys he has around to watch.
NYC, and those incidents really are just a small percent of what i've seen people do. I realize the rest of the country might not have the same amount of violence but its here and its real. My best friends brother is in jail for life because he was with 2 others guys who robbed a taxi driver. One of the guys had a gun to the drivers head and the gun went off by mistake. The bullet went through the guy into the shooters arm. They had to take there friend to the hospital or he would of died. Which if how they got caught.
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On January 12 2012 01:36 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 01:30 Dizmaul wrote:On January 12 2012 01:22 HULKAMANIA wrote:On January 12 2012 01:12 Dizmaul wrote:On January 12 2012 00:59 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:51 Myles wrote:On January 12 2012 00:49 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:34 Myles wrote:
I'm going to paraphrase a bit here, but this is part of the report that has been posted numerous times.
"Jorge got off the bus and was walking to his friends house when Dylan approached from behind and punched Jorge in the back of the head. Jorge kept walking to avoid the confrontation and Dylan started throwing more punches to the back of the head. At this time Jorge heard Dylan's friends shouting to 'Hit him again' and 'Hit him harder'. Their voices were getting louder and closer and Jorge was reportedly starting to feel light headed. Jorge felt his life was threatened and thought the other boys might jump in since there were so many people around. This is when he reached for his pocket knife, bent forward, and stabbed Dylan with his knife as the punches continued. Evem after that, he heard Dylan telling his friends 'Go get him'.
Keep in mind, this is after he already tried to get off the bus early to avoid the fight.
that sounds like a very unlikely and one-sided plee. although if that is a 100% accurate statement then i guess he didn't have much of a choice. however, i still think he should be punished for using deadly force. it's unfortunate, but in my opinion the world would be a more f**ked up and scary place if people were simply allowed to kill anyone who initiated an old fashioned fight with them. i have friends who are nice, but they get into a lot of 'nothing' fights when they're drunk. if you go to drink in a bar, this sort of thing is normal. it would scare the hell out of me if i found out that it was legal for some guy to turn around and stick a broken bottle into my friend's throat... that's a f***ed up world. I think it's more fucked up that you think it's ok for people to start fights and put the responsibility on the victim to not hurt their attacker. there's a pretty big gap between hitting someone and KILLING them... surely we can agree on that. it's a slipperly slope. if you can retaliate a straight-forward punch with a stab wound to the heart, how long before you're allowed to kill someone for farting in an elevator? You are clearly trolling now. You cant still believe that this kid was just in a good ole fashion fist fight. He was gang beat on after running for his life. I know your guys in the UK think bully's are guys who give wedgies and wet willy's and shit. That's not how it is over here in the US shit escalates fast. We has way less respect for life and there are no lines to cross. You guys can cry all you want about how it should be, but that's just how it is. Ive been witness to many intense fights that never stopped at just fist's. It always escalated to getting bat's knife's pipe's, anything you can hit people with. Ive seen a kid brutally smash in another kids face with a pool ball when I was 15. Life is a precious thing and we are taught to protect our own life by any means necessary. And almost never can you do that with your words and feeling because for some reason most people only respond to violence. The Attacker of the kids in this article didn't even stop attacking while getting stabbed. Just shows how far people are willing to go over here. The only person to ever touch Saavedra in their encounter was Nuno. Furthermore, Saavedra was never surrounded. source.Another point to clarify: Saavedra was not acquitted on normal self-defense laws. He was acquitted in accordance to the "Stand Your Ground" law, which is a law that the National Rifle Association was "heavily involved" in writing and lobbying through the Florida State Congress under Jeb Bush. It is a law that greatly expands the right of a gun-owner (or a knife-wielder in this case) to kill people, even unarmed people, who threaten him or her. In a state without this law, Saavedra would certainly have been charged—not necessarily convicted. But he would have been charged. Fortunately for him he received unintentional legal assistance from a bunch of Republicans who don't want to go to jail when they shoot the minorities who are out to trespass on their sacred rights to private property. source. Sorry i didn't think the original article had typo's In his testimony at the trial, Saavedra testified that Nuno told him, "Today's the day" — meaning they were going to fight — when he got on the bus. Nuno then followed him off the bus and a group of students circled the two, egging them on, according to reports. Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/florida-teen-jorge-saavedra-won-t-charged-murder-bus-stop-stabbing-article-1.1001277#ixzz1jATCVH8H So from the sentence: "Nuno then followed him off the bus and a group of students circled the two, egging them on" you concluded that Saavedra was "gang beat on after running for his life."
He was getting beat and there was a gang of kids. How did you get he was never surrounded from "Nuno then followed him off the bus and a group of students circled the two, egging them on."
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
shizna
Words do not describe your complete lack of rational thinking ability.
where the bully retaliates to the knife, by overpowering the kid and siezing the knife, then stabbing the kid.
that would be perfectly legal... it's a f***ed up law man...
And no, it would not be legal if the bully took the knife and killed the kid. He's the aggressor and initiated, no US state law protects an aggressor that takes the weapon from the victim to kill the victim. Are you really this dense?
You're entire argument is grasping at straws with no solid point.
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On January 12 2012 01:42 Dizmaul wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 01:36 HULKAMANIA wrote:On January 12 2012 01:30 Dizmaul wrote:On January 12 2012 01:22 HULKAMANIA wrote:On January 12 2012 01:12 Dizmaul wrote:On January 12 2012 00:59 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:51 Myles wrote:On January 12 2012 00:49 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:34 Myles wrote:
I'm going to paraphrase a bit here, but this is part of the report that has been posted numerous times.
"Jorge got off the bus and was walking to his friends house when Dylan approached from behind and punched Jorge in the back of the head. Jorge kept walking to avoid the confrontation and Dylan started throwing more punches to the back of the head. At this time Jorge heard Dylan's friends shouting to 'Hit him again' and 'Hit him harder'. Their voices were getting louder and closer and Jorge was reportedly starting to feel light headed. Jorge felt his life was threatened and thought the other boys might jump in since there were so many people around. This is when he reached for his pocket knife, bent forward, and stabbed Dylan with his knife as the punches continued. Evem after that, he heard Dylan telling his friends 'Go get him'.
Keep in mind, this is after he already tried to get off the bus early to avoid the fight.
that sounds like a very unlikely and one-sided plee. although if that is a 100% accurate statement then i guess he didn't have much of a choice. however, i still think he should be punished for using deadly force. it's unfortunate, but in my opinion the world would be a more f**ked up and scary place if people were simply allowed to kill anyone who initiated an old fashioned fight with them. i have friends who are nice, but they get into a lot of 'nothing' fights when they're drunk. if you go to drink in a bar, this sort of thing is normal. it would scare the hell out of me if i found out that it was legal for some guy to turn around and stick a broken bottle into my friend's throat... that's a f***ed up world. I think it's more fucked up that you think it's ok for people to start fights and put the responsibility on the victim to not hurt their attacker. there's a pretty big gap between hitting someone and KILLING them... surely we can agree on that. it's a slipperly slope. if you can retaliate a straight-forward punch with a stab wound to the heart, how long before you're allowed to kill someone for farting in an elevator? You are clearly trolling now. You cant still believe that this kid was just in a good ole fashion fist fight. He was gang beat on after running for his life. I know your guys in the UK think bully's are guys who give wedgies and wet willy's and shit. That's not how it is over here in the US shit escalates fast. We has way less respect for life and there are no lines to cross. You guys can cry all you want about how it should be, but that's just how it is. Ive been witness to many intense fights that never stopped at just fist's. It always escalated to getting bat's knife's pipe's, anything you can hit people with. Ive seen a kid brutally smash in another kids face with a pool ball when I was 15. Life is a precious thing and we are taught to protect our own life by any means necessary. And almost never can you do that with your words and feeling because for some reason most people only respond to violence. The Attacker of the kids in this article didn't even stop attacking while getting stabbed. Just shows how far people are willing to go over here. The only person to ever touch Saavedra in their encounter was Nuno. Furthermore, Saavedra was never surrounded. source.Another point to clarify: Saavedra was not acquitted on normal self-defense laws. He was acquitted in accordance to the "Stand Your Ground" law, which is a law that the National Rifle Association was "heavily involved" in writing and lobbying through the Florida State Congress under Jeb Bush. It is a law that greatly expands the right of a gun-owner (or a knife-wielder in this case) to kill people, even unarmed people, who threaten him or her. In a state without this law, Saavedra would certainly have been charged—not necessarily convicted. But he would have been charged. Fortunately for him he received unintentional legal assistance from a bunch of Republicans who don't want to go to jail when they shoot the minorities who are out to trespass on their sacred rights to private property. source. Sorry i didn't think the original article had typo's In his testimony at the trial, Saavedra testified that Nuno told him, "Today's the day" — meaning they were going to fight — when he got on the bus. Nuno then followed him off the bus and a group of students circled the two, egging them on, according to reports. Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/florida-teen-jorge-saavedra-won-t-charged-murder-bus-stop-stabbing-article-1.1001277#ixzz1jATCVH8H So from the sentence: "Nuno then followed him off the bus and a group of students circled the two, egging them on" you concluded that Saavedra was "gang beat on after running for his life." He was getting beat and there was a gang of kids. How did you get he was never surrounded from "Nuno then followed him off the bus and a group of students circled the two, egging them on."
What I did was (and this might seem a little crazy!) poke around on the internet and read accounts of the incident from as many different sources as possible in attempt to get an understanding of what had happened. I also read up on the law itself and the judge involved, as well as other cases where "Stand Your Ground" has been controversially invoked. Not as glamorous, I know, as reading one short news article on the story and then assuming that I had sufficient knowledge about the case to form a decisive opinion but, hey, different strokes for different folks.
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On January 12 2012 01:49 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 01:42 Dizmaul wrote:On January 12 2012 01:36 HULKAMANIA wrote:On January 12 2012 01:30 Dizmaul wrote:On January 12 2012 01:22 HULKAMANIA wrote:On January 12 2012 01:12 Dizmaul wrote:On January 12 2012 00:59 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:51 Myles wrote:On January 12 2012 00:49 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:34 Myles wrote:
I'm going to paraphrase a bit here, but this is part of the report that has been posted numerous times.
"Jorge got off the bus and was walking to his friends house when Dylan approached from behind and punched Jorge in the back of the head. Jorge kept walking to avoid the confrontation and Dylan started throwing more punches to the back of the head. At this time Jorge heard Dylan's friends shouting to 'Hit him again' and 'Hit him harder'. Their voices were getting louder and closer and Jorge was reportedly starting to feel light headed. Jorge felt his life was threatened and thought the other boys might jump in since there were so many people around. This is when he reached for his pocket knife, bent forward, and stabbed Dylan with his knife as the punches continued. Evem after that, he heard Dylan telling his friends 'Go get him'.
Keep in mind, this is after he already tried to get off the bus early to avoid the fight.
that sounds like a very unlikely and one-sided plee. although if that is a 100% accurate statement then i guess he didn't have much of a choice. however, i still think he should be punished for using deadly force. it's unfortunate, but in my opinion the world would be a more f**ked up and scary place if people were simply allowed to kill anyone who initiated an old fashioned fight with them. i have friends who are nice, but they get into a lot of 'nothing' fights when they're drunk. if you go to drink in a bar, this sort of thing is normal. it would scare the hell out of me if i found out that it was legal for some guy to turn around and stick a broken bottle into my friend's throat... that's a f***ed up world. I think it's more fucked up that you think it's ok for people to start fights and put the responsibility on the victim to not hurt their attacker. there's a pretty big gap between hitting someone and KILLING them... surely we can agree on that. it's a slipperly slope. if you can retaliate a straight-forward punch with a stab wound to the heart, how long before you're allowed to kill someone for farting in an elevator? You are clearly trolling now. You cant still believe that this kid was just in a good ole fashion fist fight. He was gang beat on after running for his life. I know your guys in the UK think bully's are guys who give wedgies and wet willy's and shit. That's not how it is over here in the US shit escalates fast. We has way less respect for life and there are no lines to cross. You guys can cry all you want about how it should be, but that's just how it is. Ive been witness to many intense fights that never stopped at just fist's. It always escalated to getting bat's knife's pipe's, anything you can hit people with. Ive seen a kid brutally smash in another kids face with a pool ball when I was 15. Life is a precious thing and we are taught to protect our own life by any means necessary. And almost never can you do that with your words and feeling because for some reason most people only respond to violence. The Attacker of the kids in this article didn't even stop attacking while getting stabbed. Just shows how far people are willing to go over here. The only person to ever touch Saavedra in their encounter was Nuno. Furthermore, Saavedra was never surrounded. source.Another point to clarify: Saavedra was not acquitted on normal self-defense laws. He was acquitted in accordance to the "Stand Your Ground" law, which is a law that the National Rifle Association was "heavily involved" in writing and lobbying through the Florida State Congress under Jeb Bush. It is a law that greatly expands the right of a gun-owner (or a knife-wielder in this case) to kill people, even unarmed people, who threaten him or her. In a state without this law, Saavedra would certainly have been charged—not necessarily convicted. But he would have been charged. Fortunately for him he received unintentional legal assistance from a bunch of Republicans who don't want to go to jail when they shoot the minorities who are out to trespass on their sacred rights to private property. source. Sorry i didn't think the original article had typo's In his testimony at the trial, Saavedra testified that Nuno told him, "Today's the day" — meaning they were going to fight — when he got on the bus. Nuno then followed him off the bus and a group of students circled the two, egging them on, according to reports. Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/florida-teen-jorge-saavedra-won-t-charged-murder-bus-stop-stabbing-article-1.1001277#ixzz1jATCVH8H So from the sentence: "Nuno then followed him off the bus and a group of students circled the two, egging them on" you concluded that Saavedra was "gang beat on after running for his life." He was getting beat and there was a gang of kids. How did you get he was never surrounded from "Nuno then followed him off the bus and a group of students circled the two, egging them on." What I did was (and this might seem a little crazy!) poke around on the internet and read accounts of the incident from as many different sources as possible in attempt to get an understanding of what had happened. I also read up on the law itself and the judge involved, as well as other cases where "Stand Your Ground" has been controversially invoked. Not as glamorous, I know, as reading one short news article on the story and then assuming that I had sufficient knowledge about the case to form a decisive opinion but, hey, different strokes for different folks.
Pretty sure I said sorry. That I was going off that article and was not aware the info was incorrect. Which is why I quoted it, as to show I just didn't make it up. Also I'm not going off one short news article. What i did was (and this might seem a little crazy!) use my real life experience being in situation's like this. I know using the inter-web to get all your experience seems like its the same.
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On January 12 2012 01:34 Vei wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 00:39 KryptoStorm wrote:On January 12 2012 00:00 Detwiler wrote:
Everybody's like read the case. Well I did. Sounds like oh I dont know every freakin school fight ever. Its the 12 wounds that does it in for me. If they fought kid got scared stabbed him and he happened to bleed to death before paramedics got there. Okay self defense he gets a pass. 12 times though? Naw dude thats murder sorry. Its like if some body breaks into my house and I shoot them. They go down and bleed to death before police get there. Self defense. But if he breaks in I shoot him and as he lays there bleeding i walk over and put another in his head thats murder. Someone who understands, thank god. Understands what..? That a 15 year-old felt so scared that he was forced to bring a knife, and then when he used it he obviously couldn't "handle" it like a trained assassin and stop after 1 stab? You have no idea what kind of fear he felt, what kind of insane amount of endorphins were plunging through the veins of someone who clearly was experiencing the highest form of terror for his own safety to even be in the situation to begin with. Honestly even if he was much older... there is a reason somethign like 33%~ of U.S. war vets experience post-traumatic stress disorder. Killing/extreme violence is not something you can do sensibly, rationally, or casually with no consequence unless you're a sociopath. You can't predict what will come out, how it will come out, the lasting-effects, what (if much) was going on through his mind other than survival instincts and a cocktail of fear, adrenaline, and rage.
Lol. Detwiler is still in this thread....3 days later. Seriously man, don't you get bored? How can you have the same argument with consecutive different groups of people?
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On January 12 2012 01:52 Dizmaul wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 01:49 HULKAMANIA wrote:On January 12 2012 01:42 Dizmaul wrote:On January 12 2012 01:36 HULKAMANIA wrote:On January 12 2012 01:30 Dizmaul wrote:On January 12 2012 01:22 HULKAMANIA wrote:On January 12 2012 01:12 Dizmaul wrote:On January 12 2012 00:59 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:51 Myles wrote:On January 12 2012 00:49 shizna wrote:
[quote]
that sounds like a very unlikely and one-sided plee.
although if that is a 100% accurate statement then i guess he didn't have much of a choice.
however, i still think he should be punished for using deadly force. it's unfortunate, but in my opinion the world would be a more f**ked up and scary place if people were simply allowed to kill anyone who initiated an old fashioned fight with them.
i have friends who are nice, but they get into a lot of 'nothing' fights when they're drunk. if you go to drink in a bar, this sort of thing is normal. it would scare the hell out of me if i found out that it was legal for some guy to turn around and stick a broken bottle into my friend's throat... that's a f***ed up world. I think it's more fucked up that you think it's ok for people to start fights and put the responsibility on the victim to not hurt their attacker. there's a pretty big gap between hitting someone and KILLING them... surely we can agree on that. it's a slipperly slope. if you can retaliate a straight-forward punch with a stab wound to the heart, how long before you're allowed to kill someone for farting in an elevator? You are clearly trolling now. You cant still believe that this kid was just in a good ole fashion fist fight. He was gang beat on after running for his life. I know your guys in the UK think bully's are guys who give wedgies and wet willy's and shit. That's not how it is over here in the US shit escalates fast. We has way less respect for life and there are no lines to cross. You guys can cry all you want about how it should be, but that's just how it is. Ive been witness to many intense fights that never stopped at just fist's. It always escalated to getting bat's knife's pipe's, anything you can hit people with. Ive seen a kid brutally smash in another kids face with a pool ball when I was 15. Life is a precious thing and we are taught to protect our own life by any means necessary. And almost never can you do that with your words and feeling because for some reason most people only respond to violence. The Attacker of the kids in this article didn't even stop attacking while getting stabbed. Just shows how far people are willing to go over here. The only person to ever touch Saavedra in their encounter was Nuno. Furthermore, Saavedra was never surrounded. source.Another point to clarify: Saavedra was not acquitted on normal self-defense laws. He was acquitted in accordance to the "Stand Your Ground" law, which is a law that the National Rifle Association was "heavily involved" in writing and lobbying through the Florida State Congress under Jeb Bush. It is a law that greatly expands the right of a gun-owner (or a knife-wielder in this case) to kill people, even unarmed people, who threaten him or her. In a state without this law, Saavedra would certainly have been charged—not necessarily convicted. But he would have been charged. Fortunately for him he received unintentional legal assistance from a bunch of Republicans who don't want to go to jail when they shoot the minorities who are out to trespass on their sacred rights to private property. source. Sorry i didn't think the original article had typo's In his testimony at the trial, Saavedra testified that Nuno told him, "Today's the day" — meaning they were going to fight — when he got on the bus. Nuno then followed him off the bus and a group of students circled the two, egging them on, according to reports. Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/florida-teen-jorge-saavedra-won-t-charged-murder-bus-stop-stabbing-article-1.1001277#ixzz1jATCVH8H So from the sentence: "Nuno then followed him off the bus and a group of students circled the two, egging them on" you concluded that Saavedra was "gang beat on after running for his life." He was getting beat and there was a gang of kids. How did you get he was never surrounded from "Nuno then followed him off the bus and a group of students circled the two, egging them on." What I did was (and this might seem a little crazy!) poke around on the internet and read accounts of the incident from as many different sources as possible in attempt to get an understanding of what had happened. I also read up on the law itself and the judge involved, as well as other cases where "Stand Your Ground" has been controversially invoked. Not as glamorous, I know, as reading one short news article on the story and then assuming that I had sufficient knowledge about the case to form a decisive opinion but, hey, different strokes for different folks. Pretty sure I said sorry. That I was going off that article and was not aware the info was incorrect. Which is why I quoted it, as to show I just didn't make it up.
Fair enough.
Just to be clear, though, my last post was an answer (in an asshole way, admittedly) to your question of how I concluded that he was never surrounded.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
Hulkamania
He was "surrounded".
When the fight happened the bully was with 2 bigger friends, this to me is enough to assume "surrounded"
So Saavandra is not allowed to assume that the 2 bigger friends would possibly help gang beat him? How can you be absolutely 100% sure the 2 bigger friends would not join in on the fight?
What kind of pink and roses world do you live in?
Do you think fights happen like a Sherlock Holmes movie where the entire outcome is dictated before the fight happens and Savaandra has the luxury of assuming all the worse things that could happen to him would not?
Doesn't work that way in real life.
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
It's frightening the number of people here who don't understand what 'murder' means.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
Apparently killing someone while defending yourself qualifies as murder to many individuals here.
I'm glad they don't write the laws.
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Mixed feelings, like most of the comments I have read.
On the hand, you feel that the boy only defended himself against a bully that has been terrorizing him for the last year. You cannot disagree with this fact, given that a serious courtcase has been brought upon this and no charges were filled. On top of that, the law clearly stataes that one may take all means necesarry to defend himself.
On the other hand, you do not want parents giving weaponry to their children every time if they fear he might be bullied. It is clear that a violent response is not the correct response towards bullying.
I personally feel that a two multi-edged way is needed in a case of bullying:
A) A serious talk with the bullying boy to found out wheter he suffers from problems himself (eg at home, loss of close relative,...). Say what you want but most bullies aren't born different from 'normal' people.
B)Raise awareness in the class group and make sure that there is an anomous way to report serious issues of bullying. Other classmates often know what is going on but do not react for several reasons. Eg (fear, think the victim copes with it just fine)
C) Someone who previously had experience with bullying should sit down with the victim and tell him that there is a life after school. Highschool isn't your entire life. This may seem 'unhelpful' or 'long-term approached'. However, desperate actions come from desperate situations. Also help him raise his selfconfidence. This is something a lot of victims lack and is one of the main reasons why they are being bullied on in the first place. This is not ment to make the victim 'responsible' or the 'creator' of his bullying but to make them more resilient towards new potential bullies.
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The average level of education in this thread is depressing.
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On January 12 2012 01:55 Tien wrote:
Hulkamania
He was "surrounded".
When the fight happened the bully was with 2 bigger friends, this to me is enough to assume "surrounded"
So Saavandra is not allowed to assume that the 2 bigger friends would possibly help gang beat him? How can you be absolutely 100% sure the 2 bigger friends would not join in on the fight?
What kind of pink and roses world do you live in?
Do you think fights happen like a Sherlock Holmes movie where the entire outcome is dictated before the fight happens and Savaandra has the luxury of assuming all the worse things that could happen to him would not?
Doesn't work that way in real life.
I don't know what "surrounded" means. I know what surrounded means, though, and he was not surrounded according to the motion for statutory immunity filed on his behalf.
You're kind of a boring person to discuss this with, though, as you automatically assume that people who disagree with you are delusional. Not to mention you're already recycling your "pink and rosy" ad hom from last night, so I can't even expect creative and varied verbal abuse... just more of the same.
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On January 12 2012 01:34 Vei wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 00:39 KryptoStorm wrote:On January 12 2012 00:00 Detwiler wrote:
Everybody's like read the case. Well I did. Sounds like oh I dont know every freakin school fight ever. Its the 12 wounds that does it in for me. If they fought kid got scared stabbed him and he happened to bleed to death before paramedics got there. Okay self defense he gets a pass. 12 times though? Naw dude thats murder sorry. Its like if some body breaks into my house and I shoot them. They go down and bleed to death before police get there. Self defense. But if he breaks in I shoot him and as he lays there bleeding i walk over and put another in his head thats murder. Someone who understands, thank god. Understands what..? That a 15 year-old felt so scared that he was forced to bring a knife, and then when he used it he obviously couldn't "handle" it like a trained assassin and stop after 1 stab? You have no idea what kind of fear he felt, what kind of insane amount of endorphins were plunging through the veins of someone who clearly was experiencing the highest form of terror for his own safety to even be in the situation to begin with. Honestly even if he was much older... there is a reason somethign like 33%~ of U.S. war vets experience post-traumatic stress disorder. Killing/extreme violence is not something you can do sensibly, rationally, or casually with no consequence unless you're a sociopath. You can't predict what will come out, how it will come out, the lasting-effects, what (if much) was going on through his mind other than survival instincts and a cocktail of fear, adrenaline, and rage.
oh god everyone is a pansy here. "Highest form of terror for his own safety." LOL COME ON MAN. OP said that one dude wanted to be badass and the other kids circled around going "fight! fight!" No, i highly doubt 8 kids were trying to gang rape him. This is like a mix between self defense and columbine.
Too many people detached from reality. Its like people expect American history X type of curb stomping would have went on if he didnt stab the shit out of the bully.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
Same.
You like to ignore facts that are relevant to the case to suit your bias.
I read the his PDF defense. He was dazed and confused from the repeated punches to the back of his head and heard voices from the bigger kids getting louder and closer. Apparently to you this isn't a big deal? The victim had no reason to believe his life is threatened? I guess that's the rhetoric you're desperately trying to hold true in your own head.
But that rhetoric is irrelevant. We don't know what went on inside the victim's head except the fact that he was legitimately scared and afraid and tried to protect himself.
I'm not even sure what your point is, and I don't think you have any point considering you don't even disagree with the judge. You're just emotionally frustrated that someone got killed with a knife.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
On January 12 2012 02:11 gameguard wrote:
Too many people detached from reality. Its like people expect American history X type of curb stomping would have went on if he didnt stab the shit out of the bully.
And you're one of them.
You can sit there and tell me with 100% truthful clarity that Savaandra would not have been harmed at all?
Savaandra doesn't have that foresight while being punched on.
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On January 12 2012 01:32 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 01:25 Dizmaul wrote:On January 12 2012 01:19 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 01:03 Myles wrote:On January 12 2012 00:59 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:51 Myles wrote:On January 12 2012 00:49 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:34 Myles wrote:
I'm going to paraphrase a bit here, but this is part of the report that has been posted numerous times.
"Jorge got off the bus and was walking to his friends house when Dylan approached from behind and punched Jorge in the back of the head. Jorge kept walking to avoid the confrontation and Dylan started throwing more punches to the back of the head. At this time Jorge heard Dylan's friends shouting to 'Hit him again' and 'Hit him harder'. Their voices were getting louder and closer and Jorge was reportedly starting to feel light headed. Jorge felt his life was threatened and thought the other boys might jump in since there were so many people around. This is when he reached for his pocket knife, bent forward, and stabbed Dylan with his knife as the punches continued. Evem after that, he heard Dylan telling his friends 'Go get him'.
Keep in mind, this is after he already tried to get off the bus early to avoid the fight.
that sounds like a very unlikely and one-sided plee. although if that is a 100% accurate statement then i guess he didn't have much of a choice. however, i still think he should be punished for using deadly force. it's unfortunate, but in my opinion the world would be a more f**ked up and scary place if people were simply allowed to kill anyone who initiated an old fashioned fight with them. i have friends who are nice, but they get into a lot of 'nothing' fights when they're drunk. if you go to drink in a bar, this sort of thing is normal. it would scare the hell out of me if i found out that it was legal for some guy to turn around and stick a broken bottle into my friend's throat... that's a f***ed up world. I think it's more fucked up that you think it's ok for people to start fights and put the responsibility on the victim to not hurt their attacker. there's a pretty big gap between hitting someone and KILLING them... surely we can agree on that. it's a slipperly slope. if you can retaliate a straight-forward punch with a stab wound to the heart, how long before you're allowed to kill someone for farting in an elevator? When farting in an elevator is considered potentially life threatening action. Trying to argue slippery slope here is pretty weak. There's a very clear line between being under attack or not under attack. The only thing anyone can argue about is using deadly force against someone who hasn't attack you yet, but you legitimately feel they're about to. And while generally getting punched doesn't lead to death, beating someone up can be considered attempted murder. life threatening situation obviously varies from person to person... specifically the state of mental health of the person in question. but i think the point is more that in the case of bullying or your run-of-the-mill violent outbursts, you're likely to later regret your actions. you were stupid, made a mistake and/or lost your temper. but you can still apologise, or at least know there is no long lasting or permanent damage done. essentially the 'stand your ground' law means that if someone makes a single stupid mistake, they can legally be murdered. that is permanent damage which will usually cause tragedy for all people involved. A single stupid mistake??? Yah harassing someone for a year then telling them tomorrow is the day. That's 356 days of stupid mistakes. How hard is it for your to keep your hands off people. You think that kid was laying there bleeding out thinking "man wtf I was just kidding". If he was then he really is just a stupid motherfucker, and ill chalk this up as natural selection. by your definition, after he got stabbed in the chest, he had every right to stand his ground and kill the kid. the law dictates that if you feel threatened, you should not have to flee - you should be allowed to defend yourself with force. so it could have been a much worse situation... where the bully retaliates to the knife, by overpowering the kid and siezing the knife, then stabbing the kid. that would be perfectly legal... it's a f***ed up law man...
No Nuno wouldnt have the right to defend himself with lethal force in that situation unless the other kid came after him with his knife to continue to stab him. Nuno is the one that initiated the fight and if he wasnt only 16 years old this would probably get classified as assault/battery in pretty much every country. Also if I'm not mistaken (please correct me if I am) Nuno continued to punch the kid AFTER he started unsing his knife to defend himself. What else is he supposed to do but continue stabbing until the assault was over? Also: maybe you know from TV for example how a cornered animal reacts when its being attacked. Most go absolutely berserk to get out of the situation. At least here where humans are involved the kid stopped once he saw that Nuno was no longer a threat to him. I've been in 'life and death' situations a few times with my bullies and every single time it was like I went into a blackout mode. I wasnt in control of my actions (that being said I didnt attack back, they gestured to push me in front of cars or buses several times, one time he pushed me in front of a bus and the only reason I got out of there unharmed is that i didnt stumble and could cross the lane shortly before the bus wouldve hit me). Point is: you cant always control your actions when you fear for your life. Being beaten up by someone that is 3 years older and has backup makes you feel like youre in a situation its impossible to come out unscathed. Sure he couldve just taken the beating 'like a man' but isnt a certain level of dignity a human right just like the right to live? Seeing how Nuno was the one to initiate the assault I would argue that his right to live is in this situation not worth as much as the right to be unharmed and live with dignity. Then again this is just theorycrafting on my side since I dont actually know if there is a legal way to determine which 'human right' has more value.
TL;DR: If you were never in what you would percieve as a 'life or death' situation you are not qualified to determine the possible reasons he had to continue to stab Nuno to death.
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EPT
