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On January 12 2012 00:00 Detwiler wrote:
Everybody's like read the case. Well I did. Sounds like oh I dont know every freakin school fight ever. Its the 12 wounds that does it in for me. If they fought kid got scared stabbed him and he happened to bleed to death before paramedics got there. Okay self defense he gets a pass. 12 times though? Naw dude thats murder sorry. Its like if some body breaks into my house and I shoot them. They go down and bleed to death before police get there. Self defense. But if he breaks in I shoot him and as he lays there bleeding i walk over and put another in his head thats murder.
Someone who understands, thank god.
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because i refuse to believe that a normal bully would continue to fight a crazy kid who brandished a knife. if that unlikely case turns out to be true, of course it would impact my stance.
This is your problem, you generalize every bully and believe they are all exactly alike, you aren't looking at the facts from this particular case. Read the police report, it states that he continued to receive punches even after he started stabbing.
Someone who understands, thank god.
Read previous 2 pages of comments. Both you and him don't understand what happened.
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On January 11 2012 23:30 KryptoStorm wrote:Incredibly un-educated LOL.
Uneducated is a single word by itself.
Nice try though bro.
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On January 12 2012 00:20 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:@above two, read: Show nested quote +Seriously, everyone defending the bully hasn't read the police report or hasn't even thoroughly read the news reports, please, if you're going to cry "it was unjustified", read up on the actual case before making yourself look like a total and complete idiot by making constant "assumptions" - what you think happened means jack shit, and how you feel about what you think happened means even less. If you're not going to do research or read up on the case, don't bother replying, please. You're seriously clogging this thread with trash replies.
The kid that tried his extreme best to avoid the fight was disoriented from repeated punches to the back of his head; his vision was blurred and he could not make out what was happening properly, he took out his knife because he thought he was being attacked by multiple people as he heard the bully and his friends constantly yelling, he blindly stabbed in front of him while the bully, who was completely concious, made no effort to get away, he was still beating up on the kid.
Anyone that has ever been in a fight knows that if you're loaded up with adrenaline you have little control over your actions, pair that with completely blurred vision and disorientation and multiple people yelling around him and blaming the kid for this is, at best, retarded.
Anyone that knows anything about fights and human violence as well, know that humans are very fragile and fights can escalate to extremely dangerous levels very quickly. Even professional people trained for combat make mistakes and judgements in the heat of the moment, much less a 14 year old kid.
A remotely innocent fight between two kids can get lethal within seconds if the bully decides he wants to bash the victims head against the pavement. And anyone suggesting it's better for you to just put yourself in the mercy of the aggressors than to defend yourself when you have the option to is just being plain ridiculous. This wasn't a "standard school fight" either, they fought on a street, there were no adults nearby to break up the fight in case it got out of hand, he did not call the police and had no one to help him if it got out of control. He was completely on his own against the bully and his friends, all of which were multiple times his size. He could either defend himself in a fight he did everything to avoid, or he could let himself be beaten up and lay at the mercy of a bunch of people that have proven to be extremely violent. Why would you judge him for choosing the former? It's absolutely retarded, you're making huge assumptions about the situation, "oh they statistically probably wouldn't have killed him, so it was unjustified". Do you really think that kid had time to think about that in the fight? Do you really think it matters at all? Please, get out of your fantasy world.
*sigh* he wasn't alone he was with his 'friends'...
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On January 12 2012 00:39 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:Show nested quote +because i refuse to believe that a normal bully would continue to fight a crazy kid who brandished a knife. if that unlikely case turns out to be true, of course it would impact my stance. This is your problem, you generalize every bully and believe they are all exactly alike, you aren't looking at the facts from this particular case. Read the police report, it states that he continued to receive punches even after he started stabbing. Read previous 2 pages of comments. Both you and him don't understand what happened.
We understand two kids had a fight, one stabbed the other to death. HE TOOK HIS LIFE AWAY FROM HIM PERMANENTLY.
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*sigh* he wasn't alone he was with his 'friends'...
He had a single friend present, still, doesn't change shit.
We understand two kids had a fight, one stabbed the other to death. HE TOOK HIS LIFE AWAY FROM HIM PERMANENTLY.
You still don't understand how it happened if you think it was unjustified, please, read again. He took out his knife to defend himself from the bully, who continued to pound on him even after he started stabbing. That is the exact definition of self defense. Seriously, I'm getting tired of explaining this _again_ and _again_. Can you just go read up on it instead of making stupid assumptions?
All you're doing is wasting my time and making yourself look like a total idiot. If they had agreed to the fight, this would have been murder. If the bully tried to escape and he still stabbed him, this would have been murder. What happened now, however, is not murder, it was self defense.
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On January 12 2012 00:43 KryptoStorm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 00:39 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:because i refuse to believe that a normal bully would continue to fight a crazy kid who brandished a knife. if that unlikely case turns out to be true, of course it would impact my stance. This is your problem, you generalize every bully and believe they are all exactly alike, you aren't looking at the facts from this particular case. Read the police report, it states that he continued to receive punches even after he started stabbing. Someone who understands, thank god. Read previous 2 pages of comments. Both you and him don't understand what happened. We understand two kids had a fight, one stabbed the other to death. HE TOOK HIS LIFE AWAY FROM HIM PERMANENTLY.
I like how you say two kids had a fight as if it was a mutual decision. This is clearly assault and battery and one of the kids DEFENDED himself from the one that attacked him.
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On January 12 2012 00:34 Myles wrote:
I'm going to paraphrase a bit here, but this is part of the report that has been posted numerous times.
"Jorge got off the bus and was walking to his friends house when Dylan approached from behind and punched Jorge in the back of the head. Jorge kept walking to avoid the confrontation and Dylan started throwing more punches to the back of the head. At this time Jorge heard Dylan's friends shouting to 'Hit him again' and 'Hit him harder'. Their voices were getting louder and closer and Jorge was reportedly starting to feel light headed. Jorge felt his life was threatened and thought the other boys might jump in since there were so many people around. This is when he reached for his pocket knife, bent forward, and stabbed Dylan with his knife as the punches continued. Evem after that, he heard Dylan telling his friends 'Go get him'.
Keep in mind, this is after he already tried to get off the bus early to avoid the fight.
that sounds like a very unlikely and one-sided plee.
although if that is a 100% accurate statement then i guess he didn't have much of a choice.
however, i still think he should be punished for using deadly force. it's unfortunate, but in my opinion the world would be a more f**ked up and scary place if people were simply allowed to kill anyone who initiated an old fashioned fight with them.
i have friends who are nice, but they get into a lot of 'nothing' fights when they're drunk. if you go to drink in a bar, this sort of thing is normal. it would scare the hell out of me if i found out that it was legal for some guy to turn around and stick a broken bottle into my friend's throat... that's a f***ed up world.
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If someone has the intention to seriously injure me. In this case I mean having the risk of a permanent serious physical or psychological trauma comparable to being tortured like waterboarding. Then yes I will use a knife to defend myself if there is no other option. This has the risk of fataly wounding the attacker. Your mindset can slip into a red rage or a stab or slash intended to only wound can land wrong in the scuffle. Tenacious packs of bullies can ruin peoples lives and when cornered and seriously threathened harm this is a proportional defence to wound but it can get out of control.
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On January 12 2012 00:49 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 00:34 Myles wrote:
I'm going to paraphrase a bit here, but this is part of the report that has been posted numerous times.
"Jorge got off the bus and was walking to his friends house when Dylan approached from behind and punched Jorge in the back of the head. Jorge kept walking to avoid the confrontation and Dylan started throwing more punches to the back of the head. At this time Jorge heard Dylan's friends shouting to 'Hit him again' and 'Hit him harder'. Their voices were getting louder and closer and Jorge was reportedly starting to feel light headed. Jorge felt his life was threatened and thought the other boys might jump in since there were so many people around. This is when he reached for his pocket knife, bent forward, and stabbed Dylan with his knife as the punches continued. Evem after that, he heard Dylan telling his friends 'Go get him'.
Keep in mind, this is after he already tried to get off the bus early to avoid the fight.
that sounds like a very unlikely and one-sided plee. although if that is a 100% accurate statement then i guess he didn't have much of a choice. however, i still think he should be punished for using deadly force. it's unfortunate, but in my opinion the world would be a more f**ked up and scary place if people were simply allowed to kill anyone who initiated an old fashioned fight with them. i have friends who are nice, but they get into a lot of 'nothing' fights when they're drunk. if you go to drink in a bar, this sort of thing is normal. it would scare the hell out of me if i found out that it was legal for some guy to turn around and stick a broken bottle into my friend's throat... that's a f***ed up world.
Perhaps your friends should stop starting "nothing" fights when they're drunk. Just because they like to fight, doesn't mean the people they attack want to fight.
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United States5162 Posts
On January 12 2012 00:49 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 00:34 Myles wrote:
I'm going to paraphrase a bit here, but this is part of the report that has been posted numerous times.
"Jorge got off the bus and was walking to his friends house when Dylan approached from behind and punched Jorge in the back of the head. Jorge kept walking to avoid the confrontation and Dylan started throwing more punches to the back of the head. At this time Jorge heard Dylan's friends shouting to 'Hit him again' and 'Hit him harder'. Their voices were getting louder and closer and Jorge was reportedly starting to feel light headed. Jorge felt his life was threatened and thought the other boys might jump in since there were so many people around. This is when he reached for his pocket knife, bent forward, and stabbed Dylan with his knife as the punches continued. Evem after that, he heard Dylan telling his friends 'Go get him'.
Keep in mind, this is after he already tried to get off the bus early to avoid the fight.
that sounds like a very unlikely and one-sided plee. although if that is a 100% accurate statement then i guess he didn't have much of a choice. however, i still think he should be punished for using deadly force. it's unfortunate, but in my opinion the world would be a more f**ked up and scary place if people were simply allowed to kill anyone who initiated an old fashioned fight with them. i have friends who are nice, but they get into a lot of 'nothing' fights when they're drunk. if you go to drink in a bar, this sort of thing is normal. it would scare the hell out of me if i found out that it was legal for some guy to turn around and stick a broken bottle into my friend's throat... that's a f***ed up world.
I think it's more fucked up that you think it's ok for people to start fights and put the responsibility on the victim to not hurt their attacker.
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On January 12 2012 00:45 hinnolinn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 00:43 KryptoStorm wrote:On January 12 2012 00:39 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:because i refuse to believe that a normal bully would continue to fight a crazy kid who brandished a knife. if that unlikely case turns out to be true, of course it would impact my stance. This is your problem, you generalize every bully and believe they are all exactly alike, you aren't looking at the facts from this particular case. Read the police report, it states that he continued to receive punches even after he started stabbing. Someone who understands, thank god. Read previous 2 pages of comments. Both you and him don't understand what happened. We understand two kids had a fight, one stabbed the other to death. HE TOOK HIS LIFE AWAY FROM HIM PERMANENTLY. I like how you say two kids had a fight as if it was a mutual decision. This is clearly assault and battery and one of the kids DEFENDED himself from the one that attacked him.
He was 14 when he murdered the other kid.
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On January 12 2012 00:50 hinnolinn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 00:49 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:34 Myles wrote:
I'm going to paraphrase a bit here, but this is part of the report that has been posted numerous times.
"Jorge got off the bus and was walking to his friends house when Dylan approached from behind and punched Jorge in the back of the head. Jorge kept walking to avoid the confrontation and Dylan started throwing more punches to the back of the head. At this time Jorge heard Dylan's friends shouting to 'Hit him again' and 'Hit him harder'. Their voices were getting louder and closer and Jorge was reportedly starting to feel light headed. Jorge felt his life was threatened and thought the other boys might jump in since there were so many people around. This is when he reached for his pocket knife, bent forward, and stabbed Dylan with his knife as the punches continued. Evem after that, he heard Dylan telling his friends 'Go get him'.
Keep in mind, this is after he already tried to get off the bus early to avoid the fight.
that sounds like a very unlikely and one-sided plee. although if that is a 100% accurate statement then i guess he didn't have much of a choice. however, i still think he should be punished for using deadly force. it's unfortunate, but in my opinion the world would be a more f**ked up and scary place if people were simply allowed to kill anyone who initiated an old fashioned fight with them. i have friends who are nice, but they get into a lot of 'nothing' fights when they're drunk. if you go to drink in a bar, this sort of thing is normal. it would scare the hell out of me if i found out that it was legal for some guy to turn around and stick a broken bottle into my friend's throat... that's a f***ed up world. Perhaps your friends should stop starting "nothing" fights when they're drunk. Just because they like to fight, doesn't mean the people they attack want to fight.
maybe when zidane headbutted materazzi... materazzi was then legally supported to snap zidanes neck like a mossad operative?
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On January 12 2012 00:51 KryptoStorm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 00:45 hinnolinn wrote:On January 12 2012 00:43 KryptoStorm wrote:On January 12 2012 00:39 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:because i refuse to believe that a normal bully would continue to fight a crazy kid who brandished a knife. if that unlikely case turns out to be true, of course it would impact my stance. This is your problem, you generalize every bully and believe they are all exactly alike, you aren't looking at the facts from this particular case. Read the police report, it states that he continued to receive punches even after he started stabbing. Someone who understands, thank god. Read previous 2 pages of comments. Both you and him don't understand what happened. We understand two kids had a fight, one stabbed the other to death. HE TOOK HIS LIFE AWAY FROM HIM PERMANENTLY. I like how you say two kids had a fight as if it was a mutual decision. This is clearly assault and battery and one of the kids DEFENDED himself from the one that attacked him. He was 14 when he murdered the other kid.
And the one that attacked him was 16, I'm not sure what your point is.
edit: I guess I should once against emphasize that this wasn't murder, but self-defense.
On January 12 2012 00:54 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 00:50 hinnolinn wrote:On January 12 2012 00:49 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:34 Myles wrote:
I'm going to paraphrase a bit here, but this is part of the report that has been posted numerous times.
"Jorge got off the bus and was walking to his friends house when Dylan approached from behind and punched Jorge in the back of the head. Jorge kept walking to avoid the confrontation and Dylan started throwing more punches to the back of the head. At this time Jorge heard Dylan's friends shouting to 'Hit him again' and 'Hit him harder'. Their voices were getting louder and closer and Jorge was reportedly starting to feel light headed. Jorge felt his life was threatened and thought the other boys might jump in since there were so many people around. This is when he reached for his pocket knife, bent forward, and stabbed Dylan with his knife as the punches continued. Evem after that, he heard Dylan telling his friends 'Go get him'.
Keep in mind, this is after he already tried to get off the bus early to avoid the fight.
that sounds like a very unlikely and one-sided plee. although if that is a 100% accurate statement then i guess he didn't have much of a choice. however, i still think he should be punished for using deadly force. it's unfortunate, but in my opinion the world would be a more f**ked up and scary place if people were simply allowed to kill anyone who initiated an old fashioned fight with them. i have friends who are nice, but they get into a lot of 'nothing' fights when they're drunk. if you go to drink in a bar, this sort of thing is normal. it would scare the hell out of me if i found out that it was legal for some guy to turn around and stick a broken bottle into my friend's throat... that's a f***ed up world. Perhaps your friends should stop starting "nothing" fights when they're drunk. Just because they like to fight, doesn't mean the people they attack want to fight. maybe when zidane headbutted materazzi... materazzi was then legally supported to snap zidanes neck like a mossad operative?
If Materazzi had a reasonable fear that zidane would continue to attack him to the point of bodily harm or death, then yes. The fact that zidane walked away after that one headbutt pretty much takes that away.
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On January 12 2012 00:54 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 00:50 hinnolinn wrote:On January 12 2012 00:49 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:34 Myles wrote:
I'm going to paraphrase a bit here, but this is part of the report that has been posted numerous times.
"Jorge got off the bus and was walking to his friends house when Dylan approached from behind and punched Jorge in the back of the head. Jorge kept walking to avoid the confrontation and Dylan started throwing more punches to the back of the head. At this time Jorge heard Dylan's friends shouting to 'Hit him again' and 'Hit him harder'. Their voices were getting louder and closer and Jorge was reportedly starting to feel light headed. Jorge felt his life was threatened and thought the other boys might jump in since there were so many people around. This is when he reached for his pocket knife, bent forward, and stabbed Dylan with his knife as the punches continued. Evem after that, he heard Dylan telling his friends 'Go get him'.
Keep in mind, this is after he already tried to get off the bus early to avoid the fight.
that sounds like a very unlikely and one-sided plee. although if that is a 100% accurate statement then i guess he didn't have much of a choice. however, i still think he should be punished for using deadly force. it's unfortunate, but in my opinion the world would be a more f**ked up and scary place if people were simply allowed to kill anyone who initiated an old fashioned fight with them. i have friends who are nice, but they get into a lot of 'nothing' fights when they're drunk. if you go to drink in a bar, this sort of thing is normal. it would scare the hell out of me if i found out that it was legal for some guy to turn around and stick a broken bottle into my friend's throat... that's a f***ed up world. Perhaps your friends should stop starting "nothing" fights when they're drunk. Just because they like to fight, doesn't mean the people they attack want to fight. maybe when zidane headbutted materazzi... materazzi was then legally supported to snap zidanes neck like a mossad operative?
If they were in America, yes.
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I like how you say two kids had a fight as if it was a mutual decision. This is clearly assault and battery and one of the kids DEFENDED himself from the one that attacked him.
Thank you. I can't even believe this is being discussed, it is such clear-cut self defense that no attorney in their right mind would attempt to prosecute.
The fact that one died, or the low number of stab wounds, is irrelevant (in knife murder cases, it isn't rare to see 50+ wounds on a victim). It certainly doesn't appear that the defender became aggressor at any point- there's no mutilation, no sadistic or intentional cutting of major arteries, etc. A person can take quite a few stab wounds before they actually go down and are subdued, even mortal ones, since there isn't much blunt-force in a knife. A few stabs does not instantly incapacitate someone the way a gunshot or baseball bat might. The bully could have been stabbed and continued fighting, which is probably what happened, until he lost too much blood.
It is kind of sad that anyone even disagrees, but they probably have never been the victim of a violent attack, or even been involved in a fight.
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On January 12 2012 00:56 hinnolinn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 00:51 KryptoStorm wrote:On January 12 2012 00:45 hinnolinn wrote:On January 12 2012 00:43 KryptoStorm wrote:On January 12 2012 00:39 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:because i refuse to believe that a normal bully would continue to fight a crazy kid who brandished a knife. if that unlikely case turns out to be true, of course it would impact my stance. This is your problem, you generalize every bully and believe they are all exactly alike, you aren't looking at the facts from this particular case. Read the police report, it states that he continued to receive punches even after he started stabbing. Someone who understands, thank god. Read previous 2 pages of comments. Both you and him don't understand what happened. We understand two kids had a fight, one stabbed the other to death. HE TOOK HIS LIFE AWAY FROM HIM PERMANENTLY. I like how you say two kids had a fight as if it was a mutual decision. This is clearly assault and battery and one of the kids DEFENDED himself from the one that attacked him. He was 14 when he murdered the other kid. And the one that attacked him was 16, I'm not sure what your point is. edit: I guess I should once against emphasize that this wasn't murder, but self-defense.
He stabbed someone, not unintentionally (Meaning not manslaughter), to death, that is murder.
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On January 12 2012 00:51 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 00:49 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:34 Myles wrote:
I'm going to paraphrase a bit here, but this is part of the report that has been posted numerous times.
"Jorge got off the bus and was walking to his friends house when Dylan approached from behind and punched Jorge in the back of the head. Jorge kept walking to avoid the confrontation and Dylan started throwing more punches to the back of the head. At this time Jorge heard Dylan's friends shouting to 'Hit him again' and 'Hit him harder'. Their voices were getting louder and closer and Jorge was reportedly starting to feel light headed. Jorge felt his life was threatened and thought the other boys might jump in since there were so many people around. This is when he reached for his pocket knife, bent forward, and stabbed Dylan with his knife as the punches continued. Evem after that, he heard Dylan telling his friends 'Go get him'.
Keep in mind, this is after he already tried to get off the bus early to avoid the fight.
that sounds like a very unlikely and one-sided plee. although if that is a 100% accurate statement then i guess he didn't have much of a choice. however, i still think he should be punished for using deadly force. it's unfortunate, but in my opinion the world would be a more f**ked up and scary place if people were simply allowed to kill anyone who initiated an old fashioned fight with them. i have friends who are nice, but they get into a lot of 'nothing' fights when they're drunk. if you go to drink in a bar, this sort of thing is normal. it would scare the hell out of me if i found out that it was legal for some guy to turn around and stick a broken bottle into my friend's throat... that's a f***ed up world. I think it's more fucked up that you think it's ok for people to start fights and put the responsibility on the victim to not hurt their attacker.
there's a pretty big gap between hitting someone and KILLING them... surely we can agree on that.
it's a slipperly slope. if you can retaliate a straight-forward punch with a stab wound to the heart, how long before you're allowed to kill someone for farting in an elevator?
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On January 12 2012 00:51 KryptoStorm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 00:45 hinnolinn wrote:On January 12 2012 00:43 KryptoStorm wrote:On January 12 2012 00:39 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:because i refuse to believe that a normal bully would continue to fight a crazy kid who brandished a knife. if that unlikely case turns out to be true, of course it would impact my stance. This is your problem, you generalize every bully and believe they are all exactly alike, you aren't looking at the facts from this particular case. Read the police report, it states that he continued to receive punches even after he started stabbing. Someone who understands, thank god. Read previous 2 pages of comments. Both you and him don't understand what happened. We understand two kids had a fight, one stabbed the other to death. HE TOOK HIS LIFE AWAY FROM HIM PERMANENTLY. I like how you say two kids had a fight as if it was a mutual decision. This is clearly assault and battery and one of the kids DEFENDED himself from the one that attacked him. He was 14 when he murdered the other kid.
He didn't murder anyone. He was 14 when he killed an older child in self-defense. His actions were judged to not be murder.
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United States5162 Posts
On January 12 2012 00:57 KryptoStorm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 00:54 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:50 hinnolinn wrote:On January 12 2012 00:49 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:34 Myles wrote:
I'm going to paraphrase a bit here, but this is part of the report that has been posted numerous times.
"Jorge got off the bus and was walking to his friends house when Dylan approached from behind and punched Jorge in the back of the head. Jorge kept walking to avoid the confrontation and Dylan started throwing more punches to the back of the head. At this time Jorge heard Dylan's friends shouting to 'Hit him again' and 'Hit him harder'. Their voices were getting louder and closer and Jorge was reportedly starting to feel light headed. Jorge felt his life was threatened and thought the other boys might jump in since there were so many people around. This is when he reached for his pocket knife, bent forward, and stabbed Dylan with his knife as the punches continued. Evem after that, he heard Dylan telling his friends 'Go get him'.
Keep in mind, this is after he already tried to get off the bus early to avoid the fight.
that sounds like a very unlikely and one-sided plee. although if that is a 100% accurate statement then i guess he didn't have much of a choice. however, i still think he should be punished for using deadly force. it's unfortunate, but in my opinion the world would be a more f**ked up and scary place if people were simply allowed to kill anyone who initiated an old fashioned fight with them. i have friends who are nice, but they get into a lot of 'nothing' fights when they're drunk. if you go to drink in a bar, this sort of thing is normal. it would scare the hell out of me if i found out that it was legal for some guy to turn around and stick a broken bottle into my friend's throat... that's a f***ed up world. Perhaps your friends should stop starting "nothing" fights when they're drunk. Just because they like to fight, doesn't mean the people they attack want to fight. maybe when zidane headbutted materazzi... materazzi was then legally supported to snap zidanes neck like a mossad operative? If they were in America, yes.
Actually, no. There has to be threatening intent. Walking up to someone, punching them, and walking away would not allow the other person to come up to from behind and stab you. The attacker has to be a PRESENT danger in that he is still attempting to hurt you.
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