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On January 12 2012 01:00 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 00:57 KryptoStorm wrote:On January 12 2012 00:54 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:50 hinnolinn wrote:On January 12 2012 00:49 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:34 Myles wrote:
I'm going to paraphrase a bit here, but this is part of the report that has been posted numerous times.
"Jorge got off the bus and was walking to his friends house when Dylan approached from behind and punched Jorge in the back of the head. Jorge kept walking to avoid the confrontation and Dylan started throwing more punches to the back of the head. At this time Jorge heard Dylan's friends shouting to 'Hit him again' and 'Hit him harder'. Their voices were getting louder and closer and Jorge was reportedly starting to feel light headed. Jorge felt his life was threatened and thought the other boys might jump in since there were so many people around. This is when he reached for his pocket knife, bent forward, and stabbed Dylan with his knife as the punches continued. Evem after that, he heard Dylan telling his friends 'Go get him'.
Keep in mind, this is after he already tried to get off the bus early to avoid the fight.
that sounds like a very unlikely and one-sided plee. although if that is a 100% accurate statement then i guess he didn't have much of a choice. however, i still think he should be punished for using deadly force. it's unfortunate, but in my opinion the world would be a more f**ked up and scary place if people were simply allowed to kill anyone who initiated an old fashioned fight with them. i have friends who are nice, but they get into a lot of 'nothing' fights when they're drunk. if you go to drink in a bar, this sort of thing is normal. it would scare the hell out of me if i found out that it was legal for some guy to turn around and stick a broken bottle into my friend's throat... that's a f***ed up world. Perhaps your friends should stop starting "nothing" fights when they're drunk. Just because they like to fight, doesn't mean the people they attack want to fight. maybe when zidane headbutted materazzi... materazzi was then legally supported to snap zidanes neck like a mossad operative? If they were in America, yes. Actually, no. There has to be threatening intent. Walking up to someone, punching them, and walking away would not allow the other person to come up to from behind and stab you. The attacker has to be a PRESENT danger in that he is still attempting to hurt you.
But how did materazzi know that after Zidanne head-butted him that he wasn't going to punch him to death once he got up? He didn't! Therefore he could have felt threatened and snapped his neck!
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On January 12 2012 00:58 KryptoStorm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 00:56 hinnolinn wrote:On January 12 2012 00:51 KryptoStorm wrote:On January 12 2012 00:45 hinnolinn wrote:On January 12 2012 00:43 KryptoStorm wrote:On January 12 2012 00:39 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:because i refuse to believe that a normal bully would continue to fight a crazy kid who brandished a knife. if that unlikely case turns out to be true, of course it would impact my stance. This is your problem, you generalize every bully and believe they are all exactly alike, you aren't looking at the facts from this particular case. Read the police report, it states that he continued to receive punches even after he started stabbing. Someone who understands, thank god. Read previous 2 pages of comments. Both you and him don't understand what happened. We understand two kids had a fight, one stabbed the other to death. HE TOOK HIS LIFE AWAY FROM HIM PERMANENTLY. I like how you say two kids had a fight as if it was a mutual decision. This is clearly assault and battery and one of the kids DEFENDED himself from the one that attacked him. He was 14 when he murdered the other kid. And the one that attacked him was 16, I'm not sure what your point is. edit: I guess I should once against emphasize that this wasn't murder, but self-defense. He stabbed someone, not unintentionally (Meaning not manslaughter), to death, that is murder.
Murder: The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
His actions were judged to be lawful self-defense.
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On January 12 2012 00:58 KryptoStorm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 00:56 hinnolinn wrote:On January 12 2012 00:51 KryptoStorm wrote:On January 12 2012 00:45 hinnolinn wrote:On January 12 2012 00:43 KryptoStorm wrote:On January 12 2012 00:39 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:because i refuse to believe that a normal bully would continue to fight a crazy kid who brandished a knife. if that unlikely case turns out to be true, of course it would impact my stance. This is your problem, you generalize every bully and believe they are all exactly alike, you aren't looking at the facts from this particular case. Read the police report, it states that he continued to receive punches even after he started stabbing. Someone who understands, thank god. Read previous 2 pages of comments. Both you and him don't understand what happened. We understand two kids had a fight, one stabbed the other to death. HE TOOK HIS LIFE AWAY FROM HIM PERMANENTLY. I like how you say two kids had a fight as if it was a mutual decision. This is clearly assault and battery and one of the kids DEFENDED himself from the one that attacked him. He was 14 when he murdered the other kid. And the one that attacked him was 16, I'm not sure what your point is. edit: I guess I should once against emphasize that this wasn't murder, but self-defense. He stabbed someone, not unintentionally (Meaning not manslaughter), to death, that is murder.
I'm not sure you understand what murder is. I'm pretty sure there has to be mens rea for murder. And the repeated attempts by the victim to escape the situation pretty much means there was not an intent to kill. Therefore not murder.
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United States5162 Posts
On January 12 2012 00:59 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 00:51 Myles wrote:On January 12 2012 00:49 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:34 Myles wrote:
I'm going to paraphrase a bit here, but this is part of the report that has been posted numerous times.
"Jorge got off the bus and was walking to his friends house when Dylan approached from behind and punched Jorge in the back of the head. Jorge kept walking to avoid the confrontation and Dylan started throwing more punches to the back of the head. At this time Jorge heard Dylan's friends shouting to 'Hit him again' and 'Hit him harder'. Their voices were getting louder and closer and Jorge was reportedly starting to feel light headed. Jorge felt his life was threatened and thought the other boys might jump in since there were so many people around. This is when he reached for his pocket knife, bent forward, and stabbed Dylan with his knife as the punches continued. Evem after that, he heard Dylan telling his friends 'Go get him'.
Keep in mind, this is after he already tried to get off the bus early to avoid the fight.
that sounds like a very unlikely and one-sided plee. although if that is a 100% accurate statement then i guess he didn't have much of a choice. however, i still think he should be punished for using deadly force. it's unfortunate, but in my opinion the world would be a more f**ked up and scary place if people were simply allowed to kill anyone who initiated an old fashioned fight with them. i have friends who are nice, but they get into a lot of 'nothing' fights when they're drunk. if you go to drink in a bar, this sort of thing is normal. it would scare the hell out of me if i found out that it was legal for some guy to turn around and stick a broken bottle into my friend's throat... that's a f***ed up world. I think it's more fucked up that you think it's ok for people to start fights and put the responsibility on the victim to not hurt their attacker. there's a pretty big gap between hitting someone and KILLING them... surely we can agree on that. it's a slipperly slope. if you can retaliate a straight-forward punch with a stab wound to the heart, how long before you're allowed to kill someone for farting in an elevator?
When farting in an elevator is considered potentially life threatening action. Trying to argue slippery slope here is pretty weak. There's a very clear line between being under attack or not under attack. The only thing anyone can argue about is using deadly force against someone who hasn't attack you yet, but you legitimately feel they're about to.
And while generally getting punched doesn't lead to death, beating someone up can be considered attempted murder.
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On January 12 2012 00:54 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 00:50 hinnolinn wrote:On January 12 2012 00:49 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:34 Myles wrote:
I'm going to paraphrase a bit here, but this is part of the report that has been posted numerous times.
"Jorge got off the bus and was walking to his friends house when Dylan approached from behind and punched Jorge in the back of the head. Jorge kept walking to avoid the confrontation and Dylan started throwing more punches to the back of the head. At this time Jorge heard Dylan's friends shouting to 'Hit him again' and 'Hit him harder'. Their voices were getting louder and closer and Jorge was reportedly starting to feel light headed. Jorge felt his life was threatened and thought the other boys might jump in since there were so many people around. This is when he reached for his pocket knife, bent forward, and stabbed Dylan with his knife as the punches continued. Evem after that, he heard Dylan telling his friends 'Go get him'.
Keep in mind, this is after he already tried to get off the bus early to avoid the fight.
that sounds like a very unlikely and one-sided plee. although if that is a 100% accurate statement then i guess he didn't have much of a choice. however, i still think he should be punished for using deadly force. it's unfortunate, but in my opinion the world would be a more f**ked up and scary place if people were simply allowed to kill anyone who initiated an old fashioned fight with them. i have friends who are nice, but they get into a lot of 'nothing' fights when they're drunk. if you go to drink in a bar, this sort of thing is normal. it would scare the hell out of me if i found out that it was legal for some guy to turn around and stick a broken bottle into my friend's throat... that's a f***ed up world. Perhaps your friends should stop starting "nothing" fights when they're drunk. Just because they like to fight, doesn't mean the people they attack want to fight. maybe when zidane headbutted materazzi... materazzi was then legally supported to snap zidanes neck like a mossad operative?
Here's another analogy. You are a black person and gets sourrounded by a bunch of skinheads that starts hitting/kicking you. You fear for your life and pull out a knife and stabs one of them that dies later. You get punished for it?
On January 12 2012 00:58 KryptoStorm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 00:56 hinnolinn wrote:On January 12 2012 00:51 KryptoStorm wrote:On January 12 2012 00:45 hinnolinn wrote:On January 12 2012 00:43 KryptoStorm wrote:On January 12 2012 00:39 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:because i refuse to believe that a normal bully would continue to fight a crazy kid who brandished a knife. if that unlikely case turns out to be true, of course it would impact my stance. This is your problem, you generalize every bully and believe they are all exactly alike, you aren't looking at the facts from this particular case. Read the police report, it states that he continued to receive punches even after he started stabbing. Someone who understands, thank god. Read previous 2 pages of comments. Both you and him don't understand what happened. We understand two kids had a fight, one stabbed the other to death. HE TOOK HIS LIFE AWAY FROM HIM PERMANENTLY. I like how you say two kids had a fight as if it was a mutual decision. This is clearly assault and battery and one of the kids DEFENDED himself from the one that attacked him. He was 14 when he murdered the other kid. And the one that attacked him was 16, I'm not sure what your point is. edit: I guess I should once against emphasize that this wasn't murder, but self-defense. He stabbed someone, not unintentionally (Meaning not manslaughter), to death, that is murder.
Then you have no idea what murder means...
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United States5162 Posts
On January 12 2012 01:01 KryptoStorm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 01:00 Myles wrote:On January 12 2012 00:57 KryptoStorm wrote:On January 12 2012 00:54 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:50 hinnolinn wrote:On January 12 2012 00:49 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:34 Myles wrote:
I'm going to paraphrase a bit here, but this is part of the report that has been posted numerous times.
"Jorge got off the bus and was walking to his friends house when Dylan approached from behind and punched Jorge in the back of the head. Jorge kept walking to avoid the confrontation and Dylan started throwing more punches to the back of the head. At this time Jorge heard Dylan's friends shouting to 'Hit him again' and 'Hit him harder'. Their voices were getting louder and closer and Jorge was reportedly starting to feel light headed. Jorge felt his life was threatened and thought the other boys might jump in since there were so many people around. This is when he reached for his pocket knife, bent forward, and stabbed Dylan with his knife as the punches continued. Evem after that, he heard Dylan telling his friends 'Go get him'.
Keep in mind, this is after he already tried to get off the bus early to avoid the fight.
that sounds like a very unlikely and one-sided plee. although if that is a 100% accurate statement then i guess he didn't have much of a choice. however, i still think he should be punished for using deadly force. it's unfortunate, but in my opinion the world would be a more f**ked up and scary place if people were simply allowed to kill anyone who initiated an old fashioned fight with them. i have friends who are nice, but they get into a lot of 'nothing' fights when they're drunk. if you go to drink in a bar, this sort of thing is normal. it would scare the hell out of me if i found out that it was legal for some guy to turn around and stick a broken bottle into my friend's throat... that's a f***ed up world. Perhaps your friends should stop starting "nothing" fights when they're drunk. Just because they like to fight, doesn't mean the people they attack want to fight. maybe when zidane headbutted materazzi... materazzi was then legally supported to snap zidanes neck like a mossad operative? If they were in America, yes. Actually, no. There has to be threatening intent. Walking up to someone, punching them, and walking away would not allow the other person to come up to from behind and stab you. The attacker has to be a PRESENT danger in that he is still attempting to hurt you. But how did materazzi know that after Zidanne head-butted him that he wasn't going to punch him to death once he got up? He didn't! Therefore he could have felt threatened and snapped his neck!
He doesn't for sure, but the fact that he wasn't attacked while on the ground shows a lack of intent to do so.
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Perhaps think I got an interesting story: A friend of me got bullied in school pretty often because he got so good marks. One day he punshed back once and broke the bullys nose. Since my friend never did anything bad and the bully was known for his crime in school, the directors said: "You only hit once?"
Nothing happend to my friend.
I gess it was an similar situation.
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On January 12 2012 01:04 nihlon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 00:54 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:50 hinnolinn wrote:On January 12 2012 00:49 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:34 Myles wrote:
I'm going to paraphrase a bit here, but this is part of the report that has been posted numerous times.
"Jorge got off the bus and was walking to his friends house when Dylan approached from behind and punched Jorge in the back of the head. Jorge kept walking to avoid the confrontation and Dylan started throwing more punches to the back of the head. At this time Jorge heard Dylan's friends shouting to 'Hit him again' and 'Hit him harder'. Their voices were getting louder and closer and Jorge was reportedly starting to feel light headed. Jorge felt his life was threatened and thought the other boys might jump in since there were so many people around. This is when he reached for his pocket knife, bent forward, and stabbed Dylan with his knife as the punches continued. Evem after that, he heard Dylan telling his friends 'Go get him'.
Keep in mind, this is after he already tried to get off the bus early to avoid the fight.
that sounds like a very unlikely and one-sided plee. although if that is a 100% accurate statement then i guess he didn't have much of a choice. however, i still think he should be punished for using deadly force. it's unfortunate, but in my opinion the world would be a more f**ked up and scary place if people were simply allowed to kill anyone who initiated an old fashioned fight with them. i have friends who are nice, but they get into a lot of 'nothing' fights when they're drunk. if you go to drink in a bar, this sort of thing is normal. it would scare the hell out of me if i found out that it was legal for some guy to turn around and stick a broken bottle into my friend's throat... that's a f***ed up world. Perhaps your friends should stop starting "nothing" fights when they're drunk. Just because they like to fight, doesn't mean the people they attack want to fight. maybe when zidane headbutted materazzi... materazzi was then legally supported to snap zidanes neck like a mossad operative? Here's another analogy. You are a black person and gets sourrounded by a bunch of skinheads that starts hitting/kicking you. You fear for your life and pull out a knife and stabs one of them that dies later. You get punished for it?
A bunch of people hitting/kicking you is different, there is a higher chance of you being killed, one person, not so much..
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On January 12 2012 00:59 shizna wrote:
there's a pretty big gap between hitting someone and KILLING them... surely we can agree on that.
One hit can kill, either directly or through interaction with the terrain (if a person is knocked down they can be fatally injured by the fall, especially if near stairs). Obviously, if you can't just walk away you should respond with the minimum amount of force with which you feel confident that you can establich your safety. The less combat training you have the greater that amount is likely to be and the greater your chance of error.
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Well, it seems we're not going to reach a meeting of the minds in this thread. Luckily for the victim here, the law in Florida is such that his self-defense was correctly judged. And luckily for other people in this thread they weren't put in this situation in a place where this would be judged harshly.
edit: I'd say stop trying to change their minds because I don't think it will happen, and you're only going to get yourself frustrated.
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On January 12 2012 01:01 KryptoStorm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 01:00 Myles wrote:On January 12 2012 00:57 KryptoStorm wrote:On January 12 2012 00:54 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:50 hinnolinn wrote:On January 12 2012 00:49 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:34 Myles wrote:
I'm going to paraphrase a bit here, but this is part of the report that has been posted numerous times.
"Jorge got off the bus and was walking to his friends house when Dylan approached from behind and punched Jorge in the back of the head. Jorge kept walking to avoid the confrontation and Dylan started throwing more punches to the back of the head. At this time Jorge heard Dylan's friends shouting to 'Hit him again' and 'Hit him harder'. Their voices were getting louder and closer and Jorge was reportedly starting to feel light headed. Jorge felt his life was threatened and thought the other boys might jump in since there were so many people around. This is when he reached for his pocket knife, bent forward, and stabbed Dylan with his knife as the punches continued. Evem after that, he heard Dylan telling his friends 'Go get him'.
Keep in mind, this is after he already tried to get off the bus early to avoid the fight.
that sounds like a very unlikely and one-sided plee. although if that is a 100% accurate statement then i guess he didn't have much of a choice. however, i still think he should be punished for using deadly force. it's unfortunate, but in my opinion the world would be a more f**ked up and scary place if people were simply allowed to kill anyone who initiated an old fashioned fight with them. i have friends who are nice, but they get into a lot of 'nothing' fights when they're drunk. if you go to drink in a bar, this sort of thing is normal. it would scare the hell out of me if i found out that it was legal for some guy to turn around and stick a broken bottle into my friend's throat... that's a f***ed up world. Perhaps your friends should stop starting "nothing" fights when they're drunk. Just because they like to fight, doesn't mean the people they attack want to fight. maybe when zidane headbutted materazzi... materazzi was then legally supported to snap zidanes neck like a mossad operative? If they were in America, yes. Actually, no. There has to be threatening intent. Walking up to someone, punching them, and walking away would not allow the other person to come up to from behind and stab you. The attacker has to be a PRESENT danger in that he is still attempting to hurt you. But how did materazzi know that after Zidanne head-butted him that he wasn't going to punch him to death once he got up? He didn't! Therefore he could have felt threatened and snapped his neck!
Apples and oranges. Those two situations are so completely different.
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On January 12 2012 00:59 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 00:51 Myles wrote:On January 12 2012 00:49 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:34 Myles wrote:
I'm going to paraphrase a bit here, but this is part of the report that has been posted numerous times.
"Jorge got off the bus and was walking to his friends house when Dylan approached from behind and punched Jorge in the back of the head. Jorge kept walking to avoid the confrontation and Dylan started throwing more punches to the back of the head. At this time Jorge heard Dylan's friends shouting to 'Hit him again' and 'Hit him harder'. Their voices were getting louder and closer and Jorge was reportedly starting to feel light headed. Jorge felt his life was threatened and thought the other boys might jump in since there were so many people around. This is when he reached for his pocket knife, bent forward, and stabbed Dylan with his knife as the punches continued. Evem after that, he heard Dylan telling his friends 'Go get him'.
Keep in mind, this is after he already tried to get off the bus early to avoid the fight.
that sounds like a very unlikely and one-sided plee. although if that is a 100% accurate statement then i guess he didn't have much of a choice. however, i still think he should be punished for using deadly force. it's unfortunate, but in my opinion the world would be a more f**ked up and scary place if people were simply allowed to kill anyone who initiated an old fashioned fight with them. i have friends who are nice, but they get into a lot of 'nothing' fights when they're drunk. if you go to drink in a bar, this sort of thing is normal. it would scare the hell out of me if i found out that it was legal for some guy to turn around and stick a broken bottle into my friend's throat... that's a f***ed up world. I think it's more fucked up that you think it's ok for people to start fights and put the responsibility on the victim to not hurt their attacker. there's a pretty big gap between hitting someone and KILLING them... surely we can agree on that. it's a slipperly slope. if you can retaliate a straight-forward punch with a stab wound to the heart, how long before you're allowed to kill someone for farting in an elevator?
You are clearly trolling now. You cant still believe that this kid was just in a good ole fashion fist fight. He was gang beat on after running for his life. I know your guys in the UK think bully's are guys who give wedgies and wet willy's and shit. That's not how it is over here in the US shit escalates fast. We has way less respect for life and there are no lines to cross. You guys can cry all you want about how it should be, but that's just how it is. Ive been witness to many intense fights that never stopped at just fist's. It always escalated to getting bat's, knife's, pipe's, anything you can hit people with. Ive seen a kid brutally smash in another kids face with a pool ball when I was 15. Life is a precious thing and we are taught to protect our own life by any means necessary. And almost never can you do that with your words and feeling because for some reason most people only respond to violence. The Attacker of the kids in this article didn't even stop attacking while getting stabbed. Just shows how far people are willing to go over here.
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wow, 63 pages of comments? All i wanted to say is that i agree with the judge, but apparently some ppl dont
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On January 12 2012 01:05 Big-t wrote:
Perhaps think I got an interesting story: A friend of me got bullied in school pretty often because he got so good marks. One day he punshed back once and broke the bullys nose. Since my friend never did anything bad and the bully was known for his crime in school, the directors said: "You only hit once?"
Nothing happend to my friend.
I gess it was an similar situation.
If the bully had fallen backwards, hit his head and died, or his broken nose was infected and he died because of it, then yeah, it would have been an similar situation.
Shit happens when you defend yourself, be it with fists or with a knife and the chance of something unexpected happening (someone dying) is always present (and larger the more inexperienced the defender is). Self defense laws, though, are necessary in society, even if sometimes an aggressor is killer.
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On January 12 2012 01:03 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 00:59 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:51 Myles wrote:On January 12 2012 00:49 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:34 Myles wrote:
I'm going to paraphrase a bit here, but this is part of the report that has been posted numerous times.
"Jorge got off the bus and was walking to his friends house when Dylan approached from behind and punched Jorge in the back of the head. Jorge kept walking to avoid the confrontation and Dylan started throwing more punches to the back of the head. At this time Jorge heard Dylan's friends shouting to 'Hit him again' and 'Hit him harder'. Their voices were getting louder and closer and Jorge was reportedly starting to feel light headed. Jorge felt his life was threatened and thought the other boys might jump in since there were so many people around. This is when he reached for his pocket knife, bent forward, and stabbed Dylan with his knife as the punches continued. Evem after that, he heard Dylan telling his friends 'Go get him'.
Keep in mind, this is after he already tried to get off the bus early to avoid the fight.
that sounds like a very unlikely and one-sided plee. although if that is a 100% accurate statement then i guess he didn't have much of a choice. however, i still think he should be punished for using deadly force. it's unfortunate, but in my opinion the world would be a more f**ked up and scary place if people were simply allowed to kill anyone who initiated an old fashioned fight with them. i have friends who are nice, but they get into a lot of 'nothing' fights when they're drunk. if you go to drink in a bar, this sort of thing is normal. it would scare the hell out of me if i found out that it was legal for some guy to turn around and stick a broken bottle into my friend's throat... that's a f***ed up world. I think it's more fucked up that you think it's ok for people to start fights and put the responsibility on the victim to not hurt their attacker. there's a pretty big gap between hitting someone and KILLING them... surely we can agree on that. it's a slipperly slope. if you can retaliate a straight-forward punch with a stab wound to the heart, how long before you're allowed to kill someone for farting in an elevator? When farting in an elevator is considered potentially life threatening action. Trying to argue slippery slope here is pretty weak. There's a very clear line between being under attack or not under attack. The only thing anyone can argue about is using deadly force against someone who hasn't attack you yet, but you legitimately feel they're about to. And while generally getting punched doesn't lead to death, beating someone up can be considered attempted murder.
life threatening situation obviously varies from person to person... specifically the state of mental health of the person in question.
but i think the point is more that in the case of bullying or your run-of-the-mill violent outbursts, you're likely to later regret your actions. you were stupid, made a mistake and/or lost your temper. but you can still apologise, or at least know there is no long lasting or permanent damage done.
essentially the 'stand your ground' law means that if someone makes a single stupid mistake, they can legally be murdered. that is permanent damage which will usually cause tragedy for all people involved.
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On January 12 2012 01:12 Dizmaul wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 00:59 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:51 Myles wrote:On January 12 2012 00:49 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:34 Myles wrote:
I'm going to paraphrase a bit here, but this is part of the report that has been posted numerous times.
"Jorge got off the bus and was walking to his friends house when Dylan approached from behind and punched Jorge in the back of the head. Jorge kept walking to avoid the confrontation and Dylan started throwing more punches to the back of the head. At this time Jorge heard Dylan's friends shouting to 'Hit him again' and 'Hit him harder'. Their voices were getting louder and closer and Jorge was reportedly starting to feel light headed. Jorge felt his life was threatened and thought the other boys might jump in since there were so many people around. This is when he reached for his pocket knife, bent forward, and stabbed Dylan with his knife as the punches continued. Evem after that, he heard Dylan telling his friends 'Go get him'.
Keep in mind, this is after he already tried to get off the bus early to avoid the fight.
that sounds like a very unlikely and one-sided plee. although if that is a 100% accurate statement then i guess he didn't have much of a choice. however, i still think he should be punished for using deadly force. it's unfortunate, but in my opinion the world would be a more f**ked up and scary place if people were simply allowed to kill anyone who initiated an old fashioned fight with them. i have friends who are nice, but they get into a lot of 'nothing' fights when they're drunk. if you go to drink in a bar, this sort of thing is normal. it would scare the hell out of me if i found out that it was legal for some guy to turn around and stick a broken bottle into my friend's throat... that's a f***ed up world. I think it's more fucked up that you think it's ok for people to start fights and put the responsibility on the victim to not hurt their attacker. there's a pretty big gap between hitting someone and KILLING them... surely we can agree on that. it's a slipperly slope. if you can retaliate a straight-forward punch with a stab wound to the heart, how long before you're allowed to kill someone for farting in an elevator? You are clearly trolling now. You cant still believe that this kid was just in a good ole fashion fist fight. He was gang beat on after running for his life. I know your guys in the UK think bully's are guys who give wedgies and wet willy's and shit. That's not how it is over here in the US shit escalates fast. We has way less respect for life and there are no lines to cross. You guys can cry all you want about how it should be, but that's just how it is. Ive been witness to many intense fights that never stopped at just fist's. It always escalated to getting bat's knife's pipe's, anything you can hit people with. Ive seen a kid brutally smash in another kids face with a pool ball when I was 15. Life is a precious thing and we are taught to protect our own life by any means necessary. And almost never can you do that with your words and feeling because for some reason most people only respond to violence. The Attacker of the kids in this article didn't even stop attacking while getting stabbed. Just shows how far people are willing to go over here.
The only person to ever touch Saavedra in their encounter was Nuno. Furthermore, Saavedra was never surrounded.
source.
Another point to clarify: Saavedra was not acquitted on normal self-defense laws. He was acquitted in accordance to the "Stand Your Ground" law, which is a law that the National Rifle Association was "heavily involved" in writing and lobbying through the Florida State Congress under Jeb Bush. It is a law that greatly expands the right of a gun-owner (or a knife-wielder in this case) to kill people, even unarmed people, who threaten him or her.
In a state without this law, Saavedra would certainly have been charged—not necessarily convicted. But he would have been charged. Fortunately for him he received unintentional legal assistance from a bunch of Republicans who don't want to go to jail when they shoot the minorities who are out to trespass on their sacred rights to private property.
source.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
On January 12 2012 00:49 shizna wrote:
i have friends who are nice, but they get into a lot of 'nothing' fights when they're drunk. if you go to drink in a bar, this sort of thing is normal. it would scare the hell out of me if i found out that it was legal for some guy to turn around and stick a broken bottle into my friend's throat... that's a f***ed up world.
If your friends start "nothing" fights with strangers, I wouldn't feel bad if one of those strangers decided to defend himself and slam a bottle in your friends head.
"Oh wait, my friends were starting fights for no reason, but trust me judge, we had no intentions of ever harming our victims, statistically none of our drunken fights ever end up with anybody hurt!!!!"
On January 12 2012 00:59 shizna wrote:
it's a slipperly slope. if you can retaliate a straight-forward punch with a stab wound to the heart, how long before you're allowed to kill someone for farting in an elevator?
OH LOL "farting in elavator", you really are as dumb as your friends.
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On January 12 2012 01:19 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 01:03 Myles wrote:On January 12 2012 00:59 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:51 Myles wrote:On January 12 2012 00:49 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:34 Myles wrote:
I'm going to paraphrase a bit here, but this is part of the report that has been posted numerous times.
"Jorge got off the bus and was walking to his friends house when Dylan approached from behind and punched Jorge in the back of the head. Jorge kept walking to avoid the confrontation and Dylan started throwing more punches to the back of the head. At this time Jorge heard Dylan's friends shouting to 'Hit him again' and 'Hit him harder'. Their voices were getting louder and closer and Jorge was reportedly starting to feel light headed. Jorge felt his life was threatened and thought the other boys might jump in since there were so many people around. This is when he reached for his pocket knife, bent forward, and stabbed Dylan with his knife as the punches continued. Evem after that, he heard Dylan telling his friends 'Go get him'.
Keep in mind, this is after he already tried to get off the bus early to avoid the fight.
that sounds like a very unlikely and one-sided plee. although if that is a 100% accurate statement then i guess he didn't have much of a choice. however, i still think he should be punished for using deadly force. it's unfortunate, but in my opinion the world would be a more f**ked up and scary place if people were simply allowed to kill anyone who initiated an old fashioned fight with them. i have friends who are nice, but they get into a lot of 'nothing' fights when they're drunk. if you go to drink in a bar, this sort of thing is normal. it would scare the hell out of me if i found out that it was legal for some guy to turn around and stick a broken bottle into my friend's throat... that's a f***ed up world. I think it's more fucked up that you think it's ok for people to start fights and put the responsibility on the victim to not hurt their attacker. there's a pretty big gap between hitting someone and KILLING them... surely we can agree on that. it's a slipperly slope. if you can retaliate a straight-forward punch with a stab wound to the heart, how long before you're allowed to kill someone for farting in an elevator? When farting in an elevator is considered potentially life threatening action. Trying to argue slippery slope here is pretty weak. There's a very clear line between being under attack or not under attack. The only thing anyone can argue about is using deadly force against someone who hasn't attack you yet, but you legitimately feel they're about to. And while generally getting punched doesn't lead to death, beating someone up can be considered attempted murder. life threatening situation obviously varies from person to person... specifically the state of mental health of the person in question. but i think the point is more that in the case of bullying or your run-of-the-mill violent outbursts, you're likely to later regret your actions. you were stupid, made a mistake and/or lost your temper. but you can still apologise, or at least know there is no long lasting or permanent damage done. essentially the 'stand your ground' law means that if someone makes a single stupid mistake, they can legally be murdered. that is permanent damage which will usually cause tragedy for all people involved.
A single stupid mistake??? Yah harassing someone for a year then telling them tomorrow is the day. That's 356 days of stupid mistakes. How hard is it for your to keep your hands off people. You think that kid was laying there bleeding out thinking "man wtf I was just kidding". If he was then he really is just a stupid motherfucker, and ill chalk this up as natural selection.
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On January 12 2012 01:22 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 01:12 Dizmaul wrote:On January 12 2012 00:59 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:51 Myles wrote:On January 12 2012 00:49 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:34 Myles wrote:
I'm going to paraphrase a bit here, but this is part of the report that has been posted numerous times.
"Jorge got off the bus and was walking to his friends house when Dylan approached from behind and punched Jorge in the back of the head. Jorge kept walking to avoid the confrontation and Dylan started throwing more punches to the back of the head. At this time Jorge heard Dylan's friends shouting to 'Hit him again' and 'Hit him harder'. Their voices were getting louder and closer and Jorge was reportedly starting to feel light headed. Jorge felt his life was threatened and thought the other boys might jump in since there were so many people around. This is when he reached for his pocket knife, bent forward, and stabbed Dylan with his knife as the punches continued. Evem after that, he heard Dylan telling his friends 'Go get him'.
Keep in mind, this is after he already tried to get off the bus early to avoid the fight.
that sounds like a very unlikely and one-sided plee. although if that is a 100% accurate statement then i guess he didn't have much of a choice. however, i still think he should be punished for using deadly force. it's unfortunate, but in my opinion the world would be a more f**ked up and scary place if people were simply allowed to kill anyone who initiated an old fashioned fight with them. i have friends who are nice, but they get into a lot of 'nothing' fights when they're drunk. if you go to drink in a bar, this sort of thing is normal. it would scare the hell out of me if i found out that it was legal for some guy to turn around and stick a broken bottle into my friend's throat... that's a f***ed up world. I think it's more fucked up that you think it's ok for people to start fights and put the responsibility on the victim to not hurt their attacker. there's a pretty big gap between hitting someone and KILLING them... surely we can agree on that. it's a slipperly slope. if you can retaliate a straight-forward punch with a stab wound to the heart, how long before you're allowed to kill someone for farting in an elevator? You are clearly trolling now. You cant still believe that this kid was just in a good ole fashion fist fight. He was gang beat on after running for his life. I know your guys in the UK think bully's are guys who give wedgies and wet willy's and shit. That's not how it is over here in the US shit escalates fast. We has way less respect for life and there are no lines to cross. You guys can cry all you want about how it should be, but that's just how it is. Ive been witness to many intense fights that never stopped at just fist's. It always escalated to getting bat's knife's pipe's, anything you can hit people with. Ive seen a kid brutally smash in another kids face with a pool ball when I was 15. Life is a precious thing and we are taught to protect our own life by any means necessary. And almost never can you do that with your words and feeling because for some reason most people only respond to violence. The Attacker of the kids in this article didn't even stop attacking while getting stabbed. Just shows how far people are willing to go over here. The only person to ever touch Saavedra in their encounter was Nuno. Furthermore, Saavedra was never surrounded. source.Another point to clarify: Saavedra was not acquitted on normal self-defense laws. He was acquitted in accordance to the "Stand Your Ground" law, which is a law that the National Rifle Association was "heavily involved" in writing and lobbying through the Florida State Congress under Jeb Bush. It is a law that greatly expands the right of a gun-owner (or a knife-wielder in this case) to kill people, even unarmed people, who threaten him or her. In a state without this law, Saavedra would certainly have been charged—not necessarily convicted. But he would have been charged. Fortunately for him he received unintentional legal assistance from a bunch of Republicans who don't want to go to jail when they shoot the minorities who are out to trespass on their sacred rights to private property. source.
Sorry i didn't think the original article had typo's
In his testimony at the trial, Saavedra testified that Nuno told him, "Today's the day" — meaning they were going to fight — when he got on the bus. Nuno then followed him off the bus and a group of students circled the two, egging them on, according to reports.
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/florida-teen-jorge-saavedra-won-t-charged-murder-bus-stop-stabbing-article-1.1001277#ixzz1jATCVH8H
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On January 12 2012 01:25 Dizmaul wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 01:19 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 01:03 Myles wrote:On January 12 2012 00:59 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:51 Myles wrote:On January 12 2012 00:49 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:34 Myles wrote:
I'm going to paraphrase a bit here, but this is part of the report that has been posted numerous times.
"Jorge got off the bus and was walking to his friends house when Dylan approached from behind and punched Jorge in the back of the head. Jorge kept walking to avoid the confrontation and Dylan started throwing more punches to the back of the head. At this time Jorge heard Dylan's friends shouting to 'Hit him again' and 'Hit him harder'. Their voices were getting louder and closer and Jorge was reportedly starting to feel light headed. Jorge felt his life was threatened and thought the other boys might jump in since there were so many people around. This is when he reached for his pocket knife, bent forward, and stabbed Dylan with his knife as the punches continued. Evem after that, he heard Dylan telling his friends 'Go get him'.
Keep in mind, this is after he already tried to get off the bus early to avoid the fight.
that sounds like a very unlikely and one-sided plee. although if that is a 100% accurate statement then i guess he didn't have much of a choice. however, i still think he should be punished for using deadly force. it's unfortunate, but in my opinion the world would be a more f**ked up and scary place if people were simply allowed to kill anyone who initiated an old fashioned fight with them. i have friends who are nice, but they get into a lot of 'nothing' fights when they're drunk. if you go to drink in a bar, this sort of thing is normal. it would scare the hell out of me if i found out that it was legal for some guy to turn around and stick a broken bottle into my friend's throat... that's a f***ed up world. I think it's more fucked up that you think it's ok for people to start fights and put the responsibility on the victim to not hurt their attacker. there's a pretty big gap between hitting someone and KILLING them... surely we can agree on that. it's a slipperly slope. if you can retaliate a straight-forward punch with a stab wound to the heart, how long before you're allowed to kill someone for farting in an elevator? When farting in an elevator is considered potentially life threatening action. Trying to argue slippery slope here is pretty weak. There's a very clear line between being under attack or not under attack. The only thing anyone can argue about is using deadly force against someone who hasn't attack you yet, but you legitimately feel they're about to. And while generally getting punched doesn't lead to death, beating someone up can be considered attempted murder. life threatening situation obviously varies from person to person... specifically the state of mental health of the person in question. but i think the point is more that in the case of bullying or your run-of-the-mill violent outbursts, you're likely to later regret your actions. you were stupid, made a mistake and/or lost your temper. but you can still apologise, or at least know there is no long lasting or permanent damage done. essentially the 'stand your ground' law means that if someone makes a single stupid mistake, they can legally be murdered. that is permanent damage which will usually cause tragedy for all people involved. A single stupid mistake??? Yah harassing someone for a year then telling them tomorrow is the day. That's 356 days of stupid mistakes. How hard is it for your to keep your hands off people. You think that kid was laying there bleeding out thinking "man wtf I was just kidding". If he was then he really is just a stupid motherfucker, and ill chalk this up as natural selection.
by your definition, after he got stabbed in the chest, he had every right to stand his ground and kill the kid.
the law dictates that if you feel threatened, you should not have to flee - you should be allowed to defend yourself with force.
so it could have been a much worse situation... where the bully retaliates to the knife, by overpowering the kid and siezing the knife, then stabbing the kid.
that would be perfectly legal... it's a f***ed up law man...
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EPT
