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On January 12 2012 08:51 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 08:41 ChinaRestaurant wrote:On January 12 2012 08:31 Kangbao wrote:On January 12 2012 08:20 tdt wrote:On January 12 2012 07:26 Kangbao wrote:On January 12 2012 07:21 Moa wrote:On January 12 2012 07:16 Kangbao wrote:
I've done the whole logical argument thing in this thread, and my desire for that has been satisfied. (bro hugs to Gobalt)
However I feel the need to say one more thing, disregarding whether this was self-defense in a life threating situation or not. How can anyone believe that the 16 year old kid being killed was the correct outcome? The kid was a jerk. He was a bully and picked on someone that was smaller than he was. That doesn't deserve the punishment of death. I can understand people saying, based on the situation, his death was justified and be glad that the victim wasn't punished. Can anyone really say that the loss of a minor's life in a bullying situation was really the best outcome? Is anyone truely happy that a "bully" young kid had his life taken from him? No,I'm not too familiar with what actually happened but it seems like once someone pulls a knife and you are with a group of people you could get away without dying. Of course the guy could have gotten away. I'm trying to gauge how many of these comments are knee jerk reactions versus actual feelings. Many of the comments are along the lines of glee at the guy's death. Many of them are good ridience, the bully deserved death. I'm not asking was it the only outcome, just are people really happy with the kid's death. I don't know about "deserve" but it's a known risk when you lay hands on someone. You can kill them easy and should expect reciprocity. All it takes is kid to fall backwards and bust his head on the curb and one can die in a blink of an eye. Are you saying taking this risk shoulnt be met with extreme response/defense in kind? Your life may depend on you or him. Deserve has nothing to do with it but rather survival no? It is a risk you assume, but that's not what i'm talking about. I'm not asking whether or not the kid reacted in the right way. If you look back through pages, many people say things like, "if your a bully you deserve it imo." "One less piece of shit on this planet, good job." Things like that. People seem to be expressing joy at the death of this kid. I'm asking if anyone is actually happy that he is dead or if those comments were just knee jerks. I can appreciate that people who were bullied intensely find joy that someone like their own bullies finally got serious repercussions. Usually bullies get away clear for most things because its not taken seriously. Fact is bullying can cause serious emotional and if its taken to the physical level of course physical damage too. Say youre raped and your rapist gets away without punishment (either because you didnt work up the nerve to report it to the police or hes not convicted for lack of proof, or whatever else). Do you find it hard to understand that you would want a person like that to suffer for what theyve done? Sure, I can imagine a type of person who enjoyed the story of Nuno's death because he or she was bullied as a child. Their joy is still unacceptable. Rejoicing in violence toward a person because that person belongs to a category of human being that you despise is unacceptable, it's low, and it has no place in any conversation about justice, much less any justice system.
This is not about justice or justice systems. Its about vengeance. Even if thats not RIGHT its hard for me to grasp how people can not understand that.
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On January 12 2012 08:54 ChinaRestaurant wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 08:51 HULKAMANIA wrote:On January 12 2012 08:41 ChinaRestaurant wrote:On January 12 2012 08:31 Kangbao wrote:On January 12 2012 08:20 tdt wrote:On January 12 2012 07:26 Kangbao wrote:On January 12 2012 07:21 Moa wrote:On January 12 2012 07:16 Kangbao wrote:
I've done the whole logical argument thing in this thread, and my desire for that has been satisfied. (bro hugs to Gobalt)
However I feel the need to say one more thing, disregarding whether this was self-defense in a life threating situation or not. How can anyone believe that the 16 year old kid being killed was the correct outcome? The kid was a jerk. He was a bully and picked on someone that was smaller than he was. That doesn't deserve the punishment of death. I can understand people saying, based on the situation, his death was justified and be glad that the victim wasn't punished. Can anyone really say that the loss of a minor's life in a bullying situation was really the best outcome? Is anyone truely happy that a "bully" young kid had his life taken from him? No,I'm not too familiar with what actually happened but it seems like once someone pulls a knife and you are with a group of people you could get away without dying. Of course the guy could have gotten away. I'm trying to gauge how many of these comments are knee jerk reactions versus actual feelings. Many of the comments are along the lines of glee at the guy's death. Many of them are good ridience, the bully deserved death. I'm not asking was it the only outcome, just are people really happy with the kid's death. I don't know about "deserve" but it's a known risk when you lay hands on someone. You can kill them easy and should expect reciprocity. All it takes is kid to fall backwards and bust his head on the curb and one can die in a blink of an eye. Are you saying taking this risk shoulnt be met with extreme response/defense in kind? Your life may depend on you or him. Deserve has nothing to do with it but rather survival no? It is a risk you assume, but that's not what i'm talking about. I'm not asking whether or not the kid reacted in the right way. If you look back through pages, many people say things like, "if your a bully you deserve it imo." "One less piece of shit on this planet, good job." Things like that. People seem to be expressing joy at the death of this kid. I'm asking if anyone is actually happy that he is dead or if those comments were just knee jerks. I can appreciate that people who were bullied intensely find joy that someone like their own bullies finally got serious repercussions. Usually bullies get away clear for most things because its not taken seriously. Fact is bullying can cause serious emotional and if its taken to the physical level of course physical damage too. Say youre raped and your rapist gets away without punishment (either because you didnt work up the nerve to report it to the police or hes not convicted for lack of proof, or whatever else). Do you find it hard to understand that you would want a person like that to suffer for what theyve done? Sure, I can imagine a type of person who enjoyed the story of Nuno's death because he or she was bullied as a child. Their joy is still unacceptable. Rejoicing in violence toward a person because that person belongs to a category of human being that you despise is unacceptable, it's low, and it has no place in any conversation about justice, much less any justice system. This is not about justice or justice systems. Its about vengeance. Even if thats not RIGHT its hard for me to grasp how people can not understand that.
I suppose that I just expected more out of people. I did not think that there would be many posters on this forum who would savor a minor's violent death because it vicariously satisfies a thirst for vengeance that they're still carrying around against their childhood tormentors.
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Kid seems kind of psycho to me. Either that or he was spoiled. I got the shit beat out me plenty of times at home and at school. And ya, when it happens to you at first you dream of murdering those people in the worst possible ways. But after a while you realize the only way things are ever gonna change is to do something about it yourself. I told teachers, bus drivers, teacher assistants. I stayed in classrooms during lunch periods, I waited an extra hour after school was out before I walked home. I went to the gym and steadily hulked up. I got beat up pretty consistently from grades 7-10, but in grade 11 I was a beast and no one touched me. Yes, I "shouldn't" have had to go through that. But I did, and I didn't have to resort to stabbing someone. Maybe society is to blame. There is a lot of stuff in the media about manning up, and not letting anyone push you around, and characters in video games and movies always handle their own shit, so that's how a man does it. I dunno, but I think it's bullshit to say he acted in self-defense and he was pushed into it. If he wanted to he could have avoided that conclusion.I mean, obviously I wasn't there and maybe he honestly felt like he was about to die unless he used that knife but I say bullshit. You bring a knife to school, you're hoping something is gonna happen.
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On January 12 2012 08:54 ChinaRestaurant wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 08:51 HULKAMANIA wrote:On January 12 2012 08:41 ChinaRestaurant wrote:On January 12 2012 08:31 Kangbao wrote:On January 12 2012 08:20 tdt wrote:On January 12 2012 07:26 Kangbao wrote:On January 12 2012 07:21 Moa wrote:On January 12 2012 07:16 Kangbao wrote:
I've done the whole logical argument thing in this thread, and my desire for that has been satisfied. (bro hugs to Gobalt)
However I feel the need to say one more thing, disregarding whether this was self-defense in a life threating situation or not. How can anyone believe that the 16 year old kid being killed was the correct outcome? The kid was a jerk. He was a bully and picked on someone that was smaller than he was. That doesn't deserve the punishment of death. I can understand people saying, based on the situation, his death was justified and be glad that the victim wasn't punished. Can anyone really say that the loss of a minor's life in a bullying situation was really the best outcome? Is anyone truely happy that a "bully" young kid had his life taken from him? No,I'm not too familiar with what actually happened but it seems like once someone pulls a knife and you are with a group of people you could get away without dying. Of course the guy could have gotten away. I'm trying to gauge how many of these comments are knee jerk reactions versus actual feelings. Many of the comments are along the lines of glee at the guy's death. Many of them are good ridience, the bully deserved death. I'm not asking was it the only outcome, just are people really happy with the kid's death. I don't know about "deserve" but it's a known risk when you lay hands on someone. You can kill them easy and should expect reciprocity. All it takes is kid to fall backwards and bust his head on the curb and one can die in a blink of an eye. Are you saying taking this risk shoulnt be met with extreme response/defense in kind? Your life may depend on you or him. Deserve has nothing to do with it but rather survival no? It is a risk you assume, but that's not what i'm talking about. I'm not asking whether or not the kid reacted in the right way. If you look back through pages, many people say things like, "if your a bully you deserve it imo." "One less piece of shit on this planet, good job." Things like that. People seem to be expressing joy at the death of this kid. I'm asking if anyone is actually happy that he is dead or if those comments were just knee jerks. I can appreciate that people who were bullied intensely find joy that someone like their own bullies finally got serious repercussions. Usually bullies get away clear for most things because its not taken seriously. Fact is bullying can cause serious emotional and if its taken to the physical level of course physical damage too. Say youre raped and your rapist gets away without punishment (either because you didnt work up the nerve to report it to the police or hes not convicted for lack of proof, or whatever else). Do you find it hard to understand that you would want a person like that to suffer for what theyve done? Sure, I can imagine a type of person who enjoyed the story of Nuno's death because he or she was bullied as a child. Their joy is still unacceptable. Rejoicing in violence toward a person because that person belongs to a category of human being that you despise is unacceptable, it's low, and it has no place in any conversation about justice, much less any justice system. This is not about justice or justice systems. Its about vengeance. Even if thats not RIGHT its hard for me to grasp how people can not understand that.
But it isn't about vengeance. There's no vengeance going on here. It's a case of a kid who was scared shitless defending himself in the only way he could think of. And HULK, why should he be put on trial? He did nothing illegal, except perhaps bringing a knife to school, but nobody is going to prosecute him for that given the circumstances.
On January 12 2012 09:05 Fumanchu wrote:
Kid seems kind of psycho to me. Either that or he was spoiled. I got the shit beat out me plenty of times at home and at school. And ya, when it happens to you at first you dream of murdering those people in the worst possible ways. But after a while you realize the only way things are ever gonna change is to do something about it yourself. I told teachers, bus drivers, teacher assistants. I stayed in classrooms during lunch periods, I waited an extra hour after school was out before I walked home. I went to the gym and steadily hulked up. I got beat up pretty consistently from grades 7-10, but in grade 11 I was a beast and no one touched me. Yes, I "shouldn't" have had to go through that. But I did, and I didn't have to resort to stabbing someone. Maybe society is to blame. There is a lot of stuff in the media about manning up, and not letting anyone push you around, and characters in video games and movies always handle their own shit, so that's how a man does it. I dunno, but I think it's bullshit to say he acted in self-defense and he was pushed into it. If he wanted to he could have avoided that conclusion.I mean, obviously I wasn't there and maybe he honestly felt like he was about to die unless he used that knife but I say bullshit. You bring a knife to school, you're hoping something is gonna happen.
That's an incredibly close-minded thing to say. If you actually read the reports, he brought it to school hoping the exact opposite.
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Hmmm, ya hoping is a poor choice of words. Rather it should have been, bring a knife to school something will happen.
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On January 12 2012 09:11 Golbat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 08:54 ChinaRestaurant wrote:On January 12 2012 08:51 HULKAMANIA wrote:On January 12 2012 08:41 ChinaRestaurant wrote:On January 12 2012 08:31 Kangbao wrote:On January 12 2012 08:20 tdt wrote:On January 12 2012 07:26 Kangbao wrote:On January 12 2012 07:21 Moa wrote:On January 12 2012 07:16 Kangbao wrote:
I've done the whole logical argument thing in this thread, and my desire for that has been satisfied. (bro hugs to Gobalt)
However I feel the need to say one more thing, disregarding whether this was self-defense in a life threating situation or not. How can anyone believe that the 16 year old kid being killed was the correct outcome? The kid was a jerk. He was a bully and picked on someone that was smaller than he was. That doesn't deserve the punishment of death. I can understand people saying, based on the situation, his death was justified and be glad that the victim wasn't punished. Can anyone really say that the loss of a minor's life in a bullying situation was really the best outcome? Is anyone truely happy that a "bully" young kid had his life taken from him? No,I'm not too familiar with what actually happened but it seems like once someone pulls a knife and you are with a group of people you could get away without dying. Of course the guy could have gotten away. I'm trying to gauge how many of these comments are knee jerk reactions versus actual feelings. Many of the comments are along the lines of glee at the guy's death. Many of them are good ridience, the bully deserved death. I'm not asking was it the only outcome, just are people really happy with the kid's death. I don't know about "deserve" but it's a known risk when you lay hands on someone. You can kill them easy and should expect reciprocity. All it takes is kid to fall backwards and bust his head on the curb and one can die in a blink of an eye. Are you saying taking this risk shoulnt be met with extreme response/defense in kind? Your life may depend on you or him. Deserve has nothing to do with it but rather survival no? It is a risk you assume, but that's not what i'm talking about. I'm not asking whether or not the kid reacted in the right way. If you look back through pages, many people say things like, "if your a bully you deserve it imo." "One less piece of shit on this planet, good job." Things like that. People seem to be expressing joy at the death of this kid. I'm asking if anyone is actually happy that he is dead or if those comments were just knee jerks. I can appreciate that people who were bullied intensely find joy that someone like their own bullies finally got serious repercussions. Usually bullies get away clear for most things because its not taken seriously. Fact is bullying can cause serious emotional and if its taken to the physical level of course physical damage too. Say youre raped and your rapist gets away without punishment (either because you didnt work up the nerve to report it to the police or hes not convicted for lack of proof, or whatever else). Do you find it hard to understand that you would want a person like that to suffer for what theyve done? Sure, I can imagine a type of person who enjoyed the story of Nuno's death because he or she was bullied as a child. Their joy is still unacceptable. Rejoicing in violence toward a person because that person belongs to a category of human being that you despise is unacceptable, it's low, and it has no place in any conversation about justice, much less any justice system. This is not about justice or justice systems. Its about vengeance. Even if thats not RIGHT its hard for me to grasp how people can not understand that. But it isn't about vengeance. There's no vengeance going on here. It's a case of a kid who was scared shitless defending himself in the only way he could think of. And HULK, why should he be put on trial? He did nothing illegal, except perhaps bringing a knife to school, but nobody is going to prosecute him for that given the circumstances. Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 09:05 Fumanchu wrote:
Kid seems kind of psycho to me. Either that or he was spoiled. I got the shit beat out me plenty of times at home and at school. And ya, when it happens to you at first you dream of murdering those people in the worst possible ways. But after a while you realize the only way things are ever gonna change is to do something about it yourself. I told teachers, bus drivers, teacher assistants. I stayed in classrooms during lunch periods, I waited an extra hour after school was out before I walked home. I went to the gym and steadily hulked up. I got beat up pretty consistently from grades 7-10, but in grade 11 I was a beast and no one touched me. Yes, I "shouldn't" have had to go through that. But I did, and I didn't have to resort to stabbing someone. Maybe society is to blame. There is a lot of stuff in the media about manning up, and not letting anyone push you around, and characters in video games and movies always handle their own shit, so that's how a man does it. I dunno, but I think it's bullshit to say he acted in self-defense and he was pushed into it. If he wanted to he could have avoided that conclusion.I mean, obviously I wasn't there and maybe he honestly felt like he was about to die unless he used that knife but I say bullshit. You bring a knife to school, you're hoping something is gonna happen. That's an incredibly close-minded thing to say. If you actually read the reports, he brought it to school hoping the exact opposite.
No I mean the vengeance is about the fact that bullied persons relish on the fact that a bully died. Thats the vengeance I'm talking about.
On January 12 2012 09:04 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 08:54 ChinaRestaurant wrote:On January 12 2012 08:51 HULKAMANIA wrote:On January 12 2012 08:41 ChinaRestaurant wrote:On January 12 2012 08:31 Kangbao wrote:On January 12 2012 08:20 tdt wrote:On January 12 2012 07:26 Kangbao wrote:On January 12 2012 07:21 Moa wrote:On January 12 2012 07:16 Kangbao wrote:
I've done the whole logical argument thing in this thread, and my desire for that has been satisfied. (bro hugs to Gobalt)
However I feel the need to say one more thing, disregarding whether this was self-defense in a life threating situation or not. How can anyone believe that the 16 year old kid being killed was the correct outcome? The kid was a jerk. He was a bully and picked on someone that was smaller than he was. That doesn't deserve the punishment of death. I can understand people saying, based on the situation, his death was justified and be glad that the victim wasn't punished. Can anyone really say that the loss of a minor's life in a bullying situation was really the best outcome? Is anyone truely happy that a "bully" young kid had his life taken from him? No,I'm not too familiar with what actually happened but it seems like once someone pulls a knife and you are with a group of people you could get away without dying. Of course the guy could have gotten away. I'm trying to gauge how many of these comments are knee jerk reactions versus actual feelings. Many of the comments are along the lines of glee at the guy's death. Many of them are good ridience, the bully deserved death. I'm not asking was it the only outcome, just are people really happy with the kid's death. I don't know about "deserve" but it's a known risk when you lay hands on someone. You can kill them easy and should expect reciprocity. All it takes is kid to fall backwards and bust his head on the curb and one can die in a blink of an eye. Are you saying taking this risk shoulnt be met with extreme response/defense in kind? Your life may depend on you or him. Deserve has nothing to do with it but rather survival no? It is a risk you assume, but that's not what i'm talking about. I'm not asking whether or not the kid reacted in the right way. If you look back through pages, many people say things like, "if your a bully you deserve it imo." "One less piece of shit on this planet, good job." Things like that. People seem to be expressing joy at the death of this kid. I'm asking if anyone is actually happy that he is dead or if those comments were just knee jerks. I can appreciate that people who were bullied intensely find joy that someone like their own bullies finally got serious repercussions. Usually bullies get away clear for most things because its not taken seriously. Fact is bullying can cause serious emotional and if its taken to the physical level of course physical damage too. Say youre raped and your rapist gets away without punishment (either because you didnt work up the nerve to report it to the police or hes not convicted for lack of proof, or whatever else). Do you find it hard to understand that you would want a person like that to suffer for what theyve done? Sure, I can imagine a type of person who enjoyed the story of Nuno's death because he or she was bullied as a child. Their joy is still unacceptable. Rejoicing in violence toward a person because that person belongs to a category of human being that you despise is unacceptable, it's low, and it has no place in any conversation about justice, much less any justice system. This is not about justice or justice systems. Its about vengeance. Even if thats not RIGHT its hard for me to grasp how people can not understand that. I suppose that I just expected more out of people. I did not think that there would be many posters on this forum who would savor a minor's violent death because it vicariously satisfies a thirst for vengeance that they're still carrying around against their childhood tormentors.
I still do carry that around with me and I think its totally justified. What those people did to me was - if I want to get all dramatic - inhuman. They were basically playing with my dignity, social status and most of all my life. Theres nothing that justifies that either. In that time I was borderline suicidal. Basically you could say that during the four years I was bullied in I wasnt living for myself. What I did was live for my bullies to serve as punching bag and ragedumpster or whatever you might call it.
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On January 12 2012 09:11 Golbat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 08:54 ChinaRestaurant wrote:On January 12 2012 08:51 HULKAMANIA wrote:On January 12 2012 08:41 ChinaRestaurant wrote:On January 12 2012 08:31 Kangbao wrote:On January 12 2012 08:20 tdt wrote:On January 12 2012 07:26 Kangbao wrote:On January 12 2012 07:21 Moa wrote:On January 12 2012 07:16 Kangbao wrote:
I've done the whole logical argument thing in this thread, and my desire for that has been satisfied. (bro hugs to Gobalt)
However I feel the need to say one more thing, disregarding whether this was self-defense in a life threating situation or not. How can anyone believe that the 16 year old kid being killed was the correct outcome? The kid was a jerk. He was a bully and picked on someone that was smaller than he was. That doesn't deserve the punishment of death. I can understand people saying, based on the situation, his death was justified and be glad that the victim wasn't punished. Can anyone really say that the loss of a minor's life in a bullying situation was really the best outcome? Is anyone truely happy that a "bully" young kid had his life taken from him? No,I'm not too familiar with what actually happened but it seems like once someone pulls a knife and you are with a group of people you could get away without dying. Of course the guy could have gotten away. I'm trying to gauge how many of these comments are knee jerk reactions versus actual feelings. Many of the comments are along the lines of glee at the guy's death. Many of them are good ridience, the bully deserved death. I'm not asking was it the only outcome, just are people really happy with the kid's death. I don't know about "deserve" but it's a known risk when you lay hands on someone. You can kill them easy and should expect reciprocity. All it takes is kid to fall backwards and bust his head on the curb and one can die in a blink of an eye. Are you saying taking this risk shoulnt be met with extreme response/defense in kind? Your life may depend on you or him. Deserve has nothing to do with it but rather survival no? It is a risk you assume, but that's not what i'm talking about. I'm not asking whether or not the kid reacted in the right way. If you look back through pages, many people say things like, "if your a bully you deserve it imo." "One less piece of shit on this planet, good job." Things like that. People seem to be expressing joy at the death of this kid. I'm asking if anyone is actually happy that he is dead or if those comments were just knee jerks. I can appreciate that people who were bullied intensely find joy that someone like their own bullies finally got serious repercussions. Usually bullies get away clear for most things because its not taken seriously. Fact is bullying can cause serious emotional and if its taken to the physical level of course physical damage too. Say youre raped and your rapist gets away without punishment (either because you didnt work up the nerve to report it to the police or hes not convicted for lack of proof, or whatever else). Do you find it hard to understand that you would want a person like that to suffer for what theyve done? Sure, I can imagine a type of person who enjoyed the story of Nuno's death because he or she was bullied as a child. Their joy is still unacceptable. Rejoicing in violence toward a person because that person belongs to a category of human being that you despise is unacceptable, it's low, and it has no place in any conversation about justice, much less any justice system. This is not about justice or justice systems. Its about vengeance. Even if thats not RIGHT its hard for me to grasp how people can not understand that. But it isn't about vengeance. There's no vengeance going on here. It's a case of a kid who was scared shitless defending himself in the only way he could think of. And HULK, why should he be put on trial? He did nothing illegal, except perhaps bringing a knife to school, but nobody is going to prosecute him for that given the circumstances. Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 09:05 Fumanchu wrote:
Kid seems kind of psycho to me. Either that or he was spoiled. I got the shit beat out me plenty of times at home and at school. And ya, when it happens to you at first you dream of murdering those people in the worst possible ways. But after a while you realize the only way things are ever gonna change is to do something about it yourself. I told teachers, bus drivers, teacher assistants. I stayed in classrooms during lunch periods, I waited an extra hour after school was out before I walked home. I went to the gym and steadily hulked up. I got beat up pretty consistently from grades 7-10, but in grade 11 I was a beast and no one touched me. Yes, I "shouldn't" have had to go through that. But I did, and I didn't have to resort to stabbing someone. Maybe society is to blame. There is a lot of stuff in the media about manning up, and not letting anyone push you around, and characters in video games and movies always handle their own shit, so that's how a man does it. I dunno, but I think it's bullshit to say he acted in self-defense and he was pushed into it. If he wanted to he could have avoided that conclusion.I mean, obviously I wasn't there and maybe he honestly felt like he was about to die unless he used that knife but I say bullshit. You bring a knife to school, you're hoping something is gonna happen. That's an incredibly close-minded thing to say. If you actually read the reports, he brought it to school hoping the exact opposite.
He should stand trial because he killed someone, which is something that our justice system takes seriously even if it is done in self defense. He should stand trial because such an act warrants trial by jury, which would be more thorough and comprehensive that a simple judicial ruling. In most states (and I would daresay countries), he certainly would have stood trial. The only reason he didn't is because of "Stand Your Ground," which is, as I have pointed out, the brainchild of the very last group in the world that I would want deciding self-defense cases: The National Rifle Association.
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Why should he stand trial for killing someone if the killing was legal and justified?
Stand Your Ground is the only sane way of having it.
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On January 12 2012 09:32 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 09:11 Golbat wrote:On January 12 2012 08:54 ChinaRestaurant wrote:On January 12 2012 08:51 HULKAMANIA wrote:On January 12 2012 08:41 ChinaRestaurant wrote:On January 12 2012 08:31 Kangbao wrote:On January 12 2012 08:20 tdt wrote:On January 12 2012 07:26 Kangbao wrote:On January 12 2012 07:21 Moa wrote:On January 12 2012 07:16 Kangbao wrote:
I've done the whole logical argument thing in this thread, and my desire for that has been satisfied. (bro hugs to Gobalt)
However I feel the need to say one more thing, disregarding whether this was self-defense in a life threating situation or not. How can anyone believe that the 16 year old kid being killed was the correct outcome? The kid was a jerk. He was a bully and picked on someone that was smaller than he was. That doesn't deserve the punishment of death. I can understand people saying, based on the situation, his death was justified and be glad that the victim wasn't punished. Can anyone really say that the loss of a minor's life in a bullying situation was really the best outcome? Is anyone truely happy that a "bully" young kid had his life taken from him? No,I'm not too familiar with what actually happened but it seems like once someone pulls a knife and you are with a group of people you could get away without dying. Of course the guy could have gotten away. I'm trying to gauge how many of these comments are knee jerk reactions versus actual feelings. Many of the comments are along the lines of glee at the guy's death. Many of them are good ridience, the bully deserved death. I'm not asking was it the only outcome, just are people really happy with the kid's death. I don't know about "deserve" but it's a known risk when you lay hands on someone. You can kill them easy and should expect reciprocity. All it takes is kid to fall backwards and bust his head on the curb and one can die in a blink of an eye. Are you saying taking this risk shoulnt be met with extreme response/defense in kind? Your life may depend on you or him. Deserve has nothing to do with it but rather survival no? It is a risk you assume, but that's not what i'm talking about. I'm not asking whether or not the kid reacted in the right way. If you look back through pages, many people say things like, "if your a bully you deserve it imo." "One less piece of shit on this planet, good job." Things like that. People seem to be expressing joy at the death of this kid. I'm asking if anyone is actually happy that he is dead or if those comments were just knee jerks. I can appreciate that people who were bullied intensely find joy that someone like their own bullies finally got serious repercussions. Usually bullies get away clear for most things because its not taken seriously. Fact is bullying can cause serious emotional and if its taken to the physical level of course physical damage too. Say youre raped and your rapist gets away without punishment (either because you didnt work up the nerve to report it to the police or hes not convicted for lack of proof, or whatever else). Do you find it hard to understand that you would want a person like that to suffer for what theyve done? Sure, I can imagine a type of person who enjoyed the story of Nuno's death because he or she was bullied as a child. Their joy is still unacceptable. Rejoicing in violence toward a person because that person belongs to a category of human being that you despise is unacceptable, it's low, and it has no place in any conversation about justice, much less any justice system. This is not about justice or justice systems. Its about vengeance. Even if thats not RIGHT its hard for me to grasp how people can not understand that. But it isn't about vengeance. There's no vengeance going on here. It's a case of a kid who was scared shitless defending himself in the only way he could think of. And HULK, why should he be put on trial? He did nothing illegal, except perhaps bringing a knife to school, but nobody is going to prosecute him for that given the circumstances. On January 12 2012 09:05 Fumanchu wrote:
Kid seems kind of psycho to me. Either that or he was spoiled. I got the shit beat out me plenty of times at home and at school. And ya, when it happens to you at first you dream of murdering those people in the worst possible ways. But after a while you realize the only way things are ever gonna change is to do something about it yourself. I told teachers, bus drivers, teacher assistants. I stayed in classrooms during lunch periods, I waited an extra hour after school was out before I walked home. I went to the gym and steadily hulked up. I got beat up pretty consistently from grades 7-10, but in grade 11 I was a beast and no one touched me. Yes, I "shouldn't" have had to go through that. But I did, and I didn't have to resort to stabbing someone. Maybe society is to blame. There is a lot of stuff in the media about manning up, and not letting anyone push you around, and characters in video games and movies always handle their own shit, so that's how a man does it. I dunno, but I think it's bullshit to say he acted in self-defense and he was pushed into it. If he wanted to he could have avoided that conclusion.I mean, obviously I wasn't there and maybe he honestly felt like he was about to die unless he used that knife but I say bullshit. You bring a knife to school, you're hoping something is gonna happen. That's an incredibly close-minded thing to say. If you actually read the reports, he brought it to school hoping the exact opposite. He should stand trial because he killed someone, which is something that our justice system takes seriously even if it is done in self defense. He should stand trial because such an act warrants trial by jury, which would be more thorough and comprehensive that a simple judicial ruling. In most states (and I would daresay countries), he certainly would have stood trial. The only reason he didn't is because of "Stand Your Ground," which is, as I have pointed out, the brainchild of the very last group in the world that I would want deciding self-defense cases: The National Rifle Association.
That is incorrect. If you are defending yourself and you happen to kill your attacker, you will not be prosecuted. You were defending yourself. The stand your ground law just stands to make that extra clear, which is something that I am thankful for, being a Florida resident.
On January 12 2012 09:30 Mykill wrote:
justice is served.
China, is this the sort of thing you're talking about? I agree that people who say this kind of stuff are stupid and butthurt, the loss of life is hardly ever a thing to rejoice.
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On January 12 2012 09:41 Golbat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 09:32 HULKAMANIA wrote:On January 12 2012 09:11 Golbat wrote:On January 12 2012 08:54 ChinaRestaurant wrote:On January 12 2012 08:51 HULKAMANIA wrote:On January 12 2012 08:41 ChinaRestaurant wrote:On January 12 2012 08:31 Kangbao wrote:On January 12 2012 08:20 tdt wrote:On January 12 2012 07:26 Kangbao wrote:On January 12 2012 07:21 Moa wrote:
[quote]
No,I'm not too familiar with what actually happened but it seems like once someone pulls a knife and you are with a group of people you could get away without dying. Of course the guy could have gotten away. I'm trying to gauge how many of these comments are knee jerk reactions versus actual feelings. Many of the comments are along the lines of glee at the guy's death. Many of them are good ridience, the bully deserved death. I'm not asking was it the only outcome, just are people really happy with the kid's death. I don't know about "deserve" but it's a known risk when you lay hands on someone. You can kill them easy and should expect reciprocity. All it takes is kid to fall backwards and bust his head on the curb and one can die in a blink of an eye. Are you saying taking this risk shoulnt be met with extreme response/defense in kind? Your life may depend on you or him. Deserve has nothing to do with it but rather survival no? It is a risk you assume, but that's not what i'm talking about. I'm not asking whether or not the kid reacted in the right way. If you look back through pages, many people say things like, "if your a bully you deserve it imo." "One less piece of shit on this planet, good job." Things like that. People seem to be expressing joy at the death of this kid. I'm asking if anyone is actually happy that he is dead or if those comments were just knee jerks. I can appreciate that people who were bullied intensely find joy that someone like their own bullies finally got serious repercussions. Usually bullies get away clear for most things because its not taken seriously. Fact is bullying can cause serious emotional and if its taken to the physical level of course physical damage too. Say youre raped and your rapist gets away without punishment (either because you didnt work up the nerve to report it to the police or hes not convicted for lack of proof, or whatever else). Do you find it hard to understand that you would want a person like that to suffer for what theyve done? Sure, I can imagine a type of person who enjoyed the story of Nuno's death because he or she was bullied as a child. Their joy is still unacceptable. Rejoicing in violence toward a person because that person belongs to a category of human being that you despise is unacceptable, it's low, and it has no place in any conversation about justice, much less any justice system. This is not about justice or justice systems. Its about vengeance. Even if thats not RIGHT its hard for me to grasp how people can not understand that. But it isn't about vengeance. There's no vengeance going on here. It's a case of a kid who was scared shitless defending himself in the only way he could think of. And HULK, why should he be put on trial? He did nothing illegal, except perhaps bringing a knife to school, but nobody is going to prosecute him for that given the circumstances. On January 12 2012 09:05 Fumanchu wrote:
Kid seems kind of psycho to me. Either that or he was spoiled. I got the shit beat out me plenty of times at home and at school. And ya, when it happens to you at first you dream of murdering those people in the worst possible ways. But after a while you realize the only way things are ever gonna change is to do something about it yourself. I told teachers, bus drivers, teacher assistants. I stayed in classrooms during lunch periods, I waited an extra hour after school was out before I walked home. I went to the gym and steadily hulked up. I got beat up pretty consistently from grades 7-10, but in grade 11 I was a beast and no one touched me. Yes, I "shouldn't" have had to go through that. But I did, and I didn't have to resort to stabbing someone. Maybe society is to blame. There is a lot of stuff in the media about manning up, and not letting anyone push you around, and characters in video games and movies always handle their own shit, so that's how a man does it. I dunno, but I think it's bullshit to say he acted in self-defense and he was pushed into it. If he wanted to he could have avoided that conclusion.I mean, obviously I wasn't there and maybe he honestly felt like he was about to die unless he used that knife but I say bullshit. You bring a knife to school, you're hoping something is gonna happen. That's an incredibly close-minded thing to say. If you actually read the reports, he brought it to school hoping the exact opposite. He should stand trial because he killed someone, which is something that our justice system takes seriously even if it is done in self defense. He should stand trial because such an act warrants trial by jury, which would be more thorough and comprehensive that a simple judicial ruling. In most states (and I would daresay countries), he certainly would have stood trial. The only reason he didn't is because of "Stand Your Ground," which is, as I have pointed out, the brainchild of the very last group in the world that I would want deciding self-defense cases: The National Rifle Association. That is incorrect. If you are defending yourself and you happen to kill your attacker, you will not be prosecuted. You were defending yourself. The stand your ground law just stands to make that extra clear, which is something that I am thankful for, being a Florida resident. China, is this the sort of thing you're talking about? I agree that people who say this kind of stuff are stupid and butthurt, the loss of life is hardly ever a thing to rejoice.
Yup, its those reactions I mean (if he was bullied and still carries it around with him that is)
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On January 12 2012 09:40 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
Why should he stand trial for killing someone if the killing was legal and justified?
Stand Your Ground is the only sane way of having it.
We try people all the time for things that they're eventually acquitted of. It's part of the due process of law, which I think is far preferable to a vague statute like "Stand Your Ground" precluding a trial entirely.
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On January 12 2012 00:49 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 00:34 Myles wrote:
I'm going to paraphrase a bit here, but this is part of the report that has been posted numerous times.
"Jorge got off the bus and was walking to his friends house when Dylan approached from behind and punched Jorge in the back of the head. Jorge kept walking to avoid the confrontation and Dylan started throwing more punches to the back of the head. At this time Jorge heard Dylan's friends shouting to 'Hit him again' and 'Hit him harder'. Their voices were getting louder and closer and Jorge was reportedly starting to feel light headed. Jorge felt his life was threatened and thought the other boys might jump in since there were so many people around. This is when he reached for his pocket knife, bent forward, and stabbed Dylan with his knife as the punches continued. Evem after that, he heard Dylan telling his friends 'Go get him'.
Keep in mind, this is after he already tried to get off the bus early to avoid the fight.
that sounds like a very unlikely and one-sided plee. although if that is a 100% accurate statement then i guess he didn't have much of a choice. however, i still think he should be punished for using deadly force. it's unfortunate, but in my opinion the world would be a more f**ked up and scary place if people were simply allowed to kill anyone who initiated an old fashioned fight with them. i have friends who are nice, but they get into a lot of 'nothing' fights when they're drunk. if you go to drink in a bar, this sort of thing is normal. it would scare the hell out of me if i found out that it was legal for some guy to turn around and stick a broken bottle into my friend's throat... that's a f***ed up world.
If some drunk asshole tries to fight me in a bar, I will stick a broken bottle into his throat. There is no way in hell that I am risking injury for some POS who can't keep his hands to himself. And there is no way in hell that I am trusting that this drunk POS that is assaulting me is actually "just a nice guy!". Fuck that. If he's so nice, he wouldn't be assaulting people.
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On January 12 2012 09:04 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 08:54 ChinaRestaurant wrote:On January 12 2012 08:51 HULKAMANIA wrote:On January 12 2012 08:41 ChinaRestaurant wrote:On January 12 2012 08:31 Kangbao wrote:On January 12 2012 08:20 tdt wrote:On January 12 2012 07:26 Kangbao wrote:On January 12 2012 07:21 Moa wrote:On January 12 2012 07:16 Kangbao wrote:
I've done the whole logical argument thing in this thread, and my desire for that has been satisfied. (bro hugs to Gobalt)
However I feel the need to say one more thing, disregarding whether this was self-defense in a life threating situation or not. How can anyone believe that the 16 year old kid being killed was the correct outcome? The kid was a jerk. He was a bully and picked on someone that was smaller than he was. That doesn't deserve the punishment of death. I can understand people saying, based on the situation, his death was justified and be glad that the victim wasn't punished. Can anyone really say that the loss of a minor's life in a bullying situation was really the best outcome? Is anyone truely happy that a "bully" young kid had his life taken from him? No,I'm not too familiar with what actually happened but it seems like once someone pulls a knife and you are with a group of people you could get away without dying. Of course the guy could have gotten away. I'm trying to gauge how many of these comments are knee jerk reactions versus actual feelings. Many of the comments are along the lines of glee at the guy's death. Many of them are good ridience, the bully deserved death. I'm not asking was it the only outcome, just are people really happy with the kid's death. I don't know about "deserve" but it's a known risk when you lay hands on someone. You can kill them easy and should expect reciprocity. All it takes is kid to fall backwards and bust his head on the curb and one can die in a blink of an eye. Are you saying taking this risk shoulnt be met with extreme response/defense in kind? Your life may depend on you or him. Deserve has nothing to do with it but rather survival no? It is a risk you assume, but that's not what i'm talking about. I'm not asking whether or not the kid reacted in the right way. If you look back through pages, many people say things like, "if your a bully you deserve it imo." "One less piece of shit on this planet, good job." Things like that. People seem to be expressing joy at the death of this kid. I'm asking if anyone is actually happy that he is dead or if those comments were just knee jerks. I can appreciate that people who were bullied intensely find joy that someone like their own bullies finally got serious repercussions. Usually bullies get away clear for most things because its not taken seriously. Fact is bullying can cause serious emotional and if its taken to the physical level of course physical damage too. Say youre raped and your rapist gets away without punishment (either because you didnt work up the nerve to report it to the police or hes not convicted for lack of proof, or whatever else). Do you find it hard to understand that you would want a person like that to suffer for what theyve done? Sure, I can imagine a type of person who enjoyed the story of Nuno's death because he or she was bullied as a child. Their joy is still unacceptable. Rejoicing in violence toward a person because that person belongs to a category of human being that you despise is unacceptable, it's low, and it has no place in any conversation about justice, much less any justice system. This is not about justice or justice systems. Its about vengeance. Even if thats not RIGHT its hard for me to grasp how people can not understand that. I suppose that I just expected more out of people. I did not think that there would be many posters on this forum who would savor a minor's violent death because it vicariously satisfies a thirst for vengeance that they're still carrying around against their childhood tormentors.
You and I have both been around this site long enough to know better than that..
Remember this thread? (and the multitude of others like it)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=102027
Many of the same issues, and knee-jerk responses, were present even then (before the influx of younger users from SC2).
Thanks anyway for attempting to insert some intelligent reasoning into this thread.
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On January 12 2012 09:57 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 09:40 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
Why should he stand trial for killing someone if the killing was legal and justified?
Stand Your Ground is the only sane way of having it. We try people all the time for things that they're eventually acquitted of. It's part of the due process of law, which I think is far preferable to a vague statute like "Stand Your Ground" precluding a trial entirely.
But there is no need for a trial. No need for it. He was violently attacked, defended himself, and in the process of doing so his attacker died. If both of these kids were ten years older this discussion would have ended by now.
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On January 12 2012 09:04 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 08:54 ChinaRestaurant wrote:On January 12 2012 08:51 HULKAMANIA wrote:On January 12 2012 08:41 ChinaRestaurant wrote:On January 12 2012 08:31 Kangbao wrote:On January 12 2012 08:20 tdt wrote:On January 12 2012 07:26 Kangbao wrote:On January 12 2012 07:21 Moa wrote:On January 12 2012 07:16 Kangbao wrote:
I've done the whole logical argument thing in this thread, and my desire for that has been satisfied. (bro hugs to Gobalt)
However I feel the need to say one more thing, disregarding whether this was self-defense in a life threating situation or not. How can anyone believe that the 16 year old kid being killed was the correct outcome? The kid was a jerk. He was a bully and picked on someone that was smaller than he was. That doesn't deserve the punishment of death. I can understand people saying, based on the situation, his death was justified and be glad that the victim wasn't punished. Can anyone really say that the loss of a minor's life in a bullying situation was really the best outcome? Is anyone truely happy that a "bully" young kid had his life taken from him? No,I'm not too familiar with what actually happened but it seems like once someone pulls a knife and you are with a group of people you could get away without dying. Of course the guy could have gotten away. I'm trying to gauge how many of these comments are knee jerk reactions versus actual feelings. Many of the comments are along the lines of glee at the guy's death. Many of them are good ridience, the bully deserved death. I'm not asking was it the only outcome, just are people really happy with the kid's death. I don't know about "deserve" but it's a known risk when you lay hands on someone. You can kill them easy and should expect reciprocity. All it takes is kid to fall backwards and bust his head on the curb and one can die in a blink of an eye. Are you saying taking this risk shoulnt be met with extreme response/defense in kind? Your life may depend on you or him. Deserve has nothing to do with it but rather survival no? It is a risk you assume, but that's not what i'm talking about. I'm not asking whether or not the kid reacted in the right way. If you look back through pages, many people say things like, "if your a bully you deserve it imo." "One less piece of shit on this planet, good job." Things like that. People seem to be expressing joy at the death of this kid. I'm asking if anyone is actually happy that he is dead or if those comments were just knee jerks. I can appreciate that people who were bullied intensely find joy that someone like their own bullies finally got serious repercussions. Usually bullies get away clear for most things because its not taken seriously. Fact is bullying can cause serious emotional and if its taken to the physical level of course physical damage too. Say youre raped and your rapist gets away without punishment (either because you didnt work up the nerve to report it to the police or hes not convicted for lack of proof, or whatever else). Do you find it hard to understand that you would want a person like that to suffer for what theyve done? Sure, I can imagine a type of person who enjoyed the story of Nuno's death because he or she was bullied as a child. Their joy is still unacceptable. Rejoicing in violence toward a person because that person belongs to a category of human being that you despise is unacceptable, it's low, and it has no place in any conversation about justice, much less any justice system. This is not about justice or justice systems. Its about vengeance. Even if thats not RIGHT its hard for me to grasp how people can not understand that. I suppose that I just expected more out of people. I did not think that there would be many posters on this forum who would savor a minor's violent death because it vicariously satisfies a thirst for vengeance that they're still carrying around against their childhood tormentors.
Youre really well versed and sensible for someone with the ID HULKMANIA lol.
Ok so heres my take on it one more time. Fundamentally, people should be able to defend yourself. To what extent and in what circumstances is debatable and usually tackled in a case by case scenario.
This wasn't some gang ridden high school in the bronx or something. Look at the pictures. Saavedra is not some scrawny kid. Nuno is not some hardcore gangster. There are a number of things he could have done. If it comes down to it, he could have fought him (preferably during school). Most people with this experience will tell you that after you fight back, bullies will stop messing with you. It doesn't matter if you win or lose.
This is what happened in my eyes. Nuno was like "im gonna beat yo ass today." Then he told his friends to come watch for his rl-peen. Saavedra got off early, nuno followed, he started slapping/tapping his head (no i dont think he sucker punched him with full force). He turned around with the knife and lunged. Its really fucking stupid. I seriously doubt Saavedra EVER was in danger of great physical harm or death. Nuno probably just screwed with him on a constant basis and Saavedra just couldnt take it any more.
The real problem is schools being too lenient on bullying all across the country. The psychological damage is almost always greater than any physical harm you might get. After a year of this, the kid finally snapped.
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On January 12 2012 10:02 Brett wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 09:04 HULKAMANIA wrote:On January 12 2012 08:54 ChinaRestaurant wrote:On January 12 2012 08:51 HULKAMANIA wrote:On January 12 2012 08:41 ChinaRestaurant wrote:On January 12 2012 08:31 Kangbao wrote:On January 12 2012 08:20 tdt wrote:On January 12 2012 07:26 Kangbao wrote:On January 12 2012 07:21 Moa wrote:On January 12 2012 07:16 Kangbao wrote:
I've done the whole logical argument thing in this thread, and my desire for that has been satisfied. (bro hugs to Gobalt)
However I feel the need to say one more thing, disregarding whether this was self-defense in a life threating situation or not. How can anyone believe that the 16 year old kid being killed was the correct outcome? The kid was a jerk. He was a bully and picked on someone that was smaller than he was. That doesn't deserve the punishment of death. I can understand people saying, based on the situation, his death was justified and be glad that the victim wasn't punished. Can anyone really say that the loss of a minor's life in a bullying situation was really the best outcome? Is anyone truely happy that a "bully" young kid had his life taken from him? No,I'm not too familiar with what actually happened but it seems like once someone pulls a knife and you are with a group of people you could get away without dying. Of course the guy could have gotten away. I'm trying to gauge how many of these comments are knee jerk reactions versus actual feelings. Many of the comments are along the lines of glee at the guy's death. Many of them are good ridience, the bully deserved death. I'm not asking was it the only outcome, just are people really happy with the kid's death. I don't know about "deserve" but it's a known risk when you lay hands on someone. You can kill them easy and should expect reciprocity. All it takes is kid to fall backwards and bust his head on the curb and one can die in a blink of an eye. Are you saying taking this risk shoulnt be met with extreme response/defense in kind? Your life may depend on you or him. Deserve has nothing to do with it but rather survival no? It is a risk you assume, but that's not what i'm talking about. I'm not asking whether or not the kid reacted in the right way. If you look back through pages, many people say things like, "if your a bully you deserve it imo." "One less piece of shit on this planet, good job." Things like that. People seem to be expressing joy at the death of this kid. I'm asking if anyone is actually happy that he is dead or if those comments were just knee jerks. I can appreciate that people who were bullied intensely find joy that someone like their own bullies finally got serious repercussions. Usually bullies get away clear for most things because its not taken seriously. Fact is bullying can cause serious emotional and if its taken to the physical level of course physical damage too. Say youre raped and your rapist gets away without punishment (either because you didnt work up the nerve to report it to the police or hes not convicted for lack of proof, or whatever else). Do you find it hard to understand that you would want a person like that to suffer for what theyve done? Sure, I can imagine a type of person who enjoyed the story of Nuno's death because he or she was bullied as a child. Their joy is still unacceptable. Rejoicing in violence toward a person because that person belongs to a category of human being that you despise is unacceptable, it's low, and it has no place in any conversation about justice, much less any justice system. This is not about justice or justice systems. Its about vengeance. Even if thats not RIGHT its hard for me to grasp how people can not understand that. I suppose that I just expected more out of people. I did not think that there would be many posters on this forum who would savor a minor's violent death because it vicariously satisfies a thirst for vengeance that they're still carrying around against their childhood tormentors. You and I have both been around this site long enough to know better than that.. Remember this thread? (and the multitude of others like it) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=102027Many of the same issues, and knee-jerk responses, were present even then (before the influx of younger users from SC2). Thanks anyway for attempting to insert some intelligent reasoning into this thread.
Just to clarify, I think this position is wrong as well. Its just that I'm honest enough with myself that I dont have to fake some kind of self control or sympathy. What happened altered my view on bullies. The fact that he had to die is unfortunate but in my view preferable to someone getting beat up for no reason.
On January 12 2012 10:14 gameguard wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 09:04 HULKAMANIA wrote:On January 12 2012 08:54 ChinaRestaurant wrote:On January 12 2012 08:51 HULKAMANIA wrote:On January 12 2012 08:41 ChinaRestaurant wrote:On January 12 2012 08:31 Kangbao wrote:On January 12 2012 08:20 tdt wrote:On January 12 2012 07:26 Kangbao wrote:On January 12 2012 07:21 Moa wrote:On January 12 2012 07:16 Kangbao wrote:
I've done the whole logical argument thing in this thread, and my desire for that has been satisfied. (bro hugs to Gobalt)
However I feel the need to say one more thing, disregarding whether this was self-defense in a life threating situation or not. How can anyone believe that the 16 year old kid being killed was the correct outcome? The kid was a jerk. He was a bully and picked on someone that was smaller than he was. That doesn't deserve the punishment of death. I can understand people saying, based on the situation, his death was justified and be glad that the victim wasn't punished. Can anyone really say that the loss of a minor's life in a bullying situation was really the best outcome? Is anyone truely happy that a "bully" young kid had his life taken from him? No,I'm not too familiar with what actually happened but it seems like once someone pulls a knife and you are with a group of people you could get away without dying. Of course the guy could have gotten away. I'm trying to gauge how many of these comments are knee jerk reactions versus actual feelings. Many of the comments are along the lines of glee at the guy's death. Many of them are good ridience, the bully deserved death. I'm not asking was it the only outcome, just are people really happy with the kid's death. I don't know about "deserve" but it's a known risk when you lay hands on someone. You can kill them easy and should expect reciprocity. All it takes is kid to fall backwards and bust his head on the curb and one can die in a blink of an eye. Are you saying taking this risk shoulnt be met with extreme response/defense in kind? Your life may depend on you or him. Deserve has nothing to do with it but rather survival no? It is a risk you assume, but that's not what i'm talking about. I'm not asking whether or not the kid reacted in the right way. If you look back through pages, many people say things like, "if your a bully you deserve it imo." "One less piece of shit on this planet, good job." Things like that. People seem to be expressing joy at the death of this kid. I'm asking if anyone is actually happy that he is dead or if those comments were just knee jerks. I can appreciate that people who were bullied intensely find joy that someone like their own bullies finally got serious repercussions. Usually bullies get away clear for most things because its not taken seriously. Fact is bullying can cause serious emotional and if its taken to the physical level of course physical damage too. Say youre raped and your rapist gets away without punishment (either because you didnt work up the nerve to report it to the police or hes not convicted for lack of proof, or whatever else). Do you find it hard to understand that you would want a person like that to suffer for what theyve done? Sure, I can imagine a type of person who enjoyed the story of Nuno's death because he or she was bullied as a child. Their joy is still unacceptable. Rejoicing in violence toward a person because that person belongs to a category of human being that you despise is unacceptable, it's low, and it has no place in any conversation about justice, much less any justice system. This is not about justice or justice systems. Its about vengeance. Even if thats not RIGHT its hard for me to grasp how people can not understand that. I suppose that I just expected more out of people. I did not think that there would be many posters on this forum who would savor a minor's violent death because it vicariously satisfies a thirst for vengeance that they're still carrying around against their childhood tormentors. Youre really well versed and sensible for someone with the ID HULKMANIA lol. Ok so heres my take on it one more time. Fundamentally, people should be able to defend yourself. To what extent and in what circumstances is debatable and usually tackled in a case by case scenario. This wasn't some gang ridden high school in the bronx or something. Look at the pictures. Saavedra is not some scrawny kid. Nuno is not some hardcore gangster. There are a number of things he could have done. If it comes down to it, he could have fought him (preferably during school). Most people with this experience will tell you that after you fight back, bullies will stop messing with you. It doesn't matter if you win or lose. This is what happened in my eyes. Nuno was like "im gonna beat yo ass today." Then he told his friends to come watch for his rl-peen. Saavedra got off early, nuno followed, he started slapping/tapping his head (no i dont think he sucker punched him with full force). He turned around with the knife and lunged. Its really fucking stupid. I seriously doubt Saavedra EVER was in danger of great physical harm or death. Nuno probably just screwed with him on a constant basis and Saavedra just couldnt take it any more. The real problem is schools being too lenient on bullying all across the country. The psychological damage is almost always greater than any physical harm you might get. After a year of this, the kid finally snapped.
I tried fighting back almost every time I was attacked by my bullies. It didnt help AT ALL. Only thing it did was enrage them further so that they would do even more fucked up stuff than they were planning. Also I dont see where you come up with where it says savaadra lunged at nuno. Afaik he stabbed at him while nuno was still punching him (gonna re-read the article to make sure I'm not blabbering nonsense).
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On January 12 2012 10:14 gameguard wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 09:04 HULKAMANIA wrote:On January 12 2012 08:54 ChinaRestaurant wrote:On January 12 2012 08:51 HULKAMANIA wrote:On January 12 2012 08:41 ChinaRestaurant wrote:On January 12 2012 08:31 Kangbao wrote:On January 12 2012 08:20 tdt wrote:On January 12 2012 07:26 Kangbao wrote:On January 12 2012 07:21 Moa wrote:On January 12 2012 07:16 Kangbao wrote:
I've done the whole logical argument thing in this thread, and my desire for that has been satisfied. (bro hugs to Gobalt)
However I feel the need to say one more thing, disregarding whether this was self-defense in a life threating situation or not. How can anyone believe that the 16 year old kid being killed was the correct outcome? The kid was a jerk. He was a bully and picked on someone that was smaller than he was. That doesn't deserve the punishment of death. I can understand people saying, based on the situation, his death was justified and be glad that the victim wasn't punished. Can anyone really say that the loss of a minor's life in a bullying situation was really the best outcome? Is anyone truely happy that a "bully" young kid had his life taken from him? No,I'm not too familiar with what actually happened but it seems like once someone pulls a knife and you are with a group of people you could get away without dying. Of course the guy could have gotten away. I'm trying to gauge how many of these comments are knee jerk reactions versus actual feelings. Many of the comments are along the lines of glee at the guy's death. Many of them are good ridience, the bully deserved death. I'm not asking was it the only outcome, just are people really happy with the kid's death. I don't know about "deserve" but it's a known risk when you lay hands on someone. You can kill them easy and should expect reciprocity. All it takes is kid to fall backwards and bust his head on the curb and one can die in a blink of an eye. Are you saying taking this risk shoulnt be met with extreme response/defense in kind? Your life may depend on you or him. Deserve has nothing to do with it but rather survival no? It is a risk you assume, but that's not what i'm talking about. I'm not asking whether or not the kid reacted in the right way. If you look back through pages, many people say things like, "if your a bully you deserve it imo." "One less piece of shit on this planet, good job." Things like that. People seem to be expressing joy at the death of this kid. I'm asking if anyone is actually happy that he is dead or if those comments were just knee jerks. I can appreciate that people who were bullied intensely find joy that someone like their own bullies finally got serious repercussions. Usually bullies get away clear for most things because its not taken seriously. Fact is bullying can cause serious emotional and if its taken to the physical level of course physical damage too. Say youre raped and your rapist gets away without punishment (either because you didnt work up the nerve to report it to the police or hes not convicted for lack of proof, or whatever else). Do you find it hard to understand that you would want a person like that to suffer for what theyve done? Sure, I can imagine a type of person who enjoyed the story of Nuno's death because he or she was bullied as a child. Their joy is still unacceptable. Rejoicing in violence toward a person because that person belongs to a category of human being that you despise is unacceptable, it's low, and it has no place in any conversation about justice, much less any justice system. This is not about justice or justice systems. Its about vengeance. Even if thats not RIGHT its hard for me to grasp how people can not understand that. I suppose that I just expected more out of people. I did not think that there would be many posters on this forum who would savor a minor's violent death because it vicariously satisfies a thirst for vengeance that they're still carrying around against their childhood tormentors. Youre really well versed and sensible for someone with the ID HULKMANIA lol. Ok so heres my take on it one more time. Fundamentally, people should be able to defend yourself. To what extent and in what circumstances is debatable and usually tackled in a case by case scenario. This wasn't some gang ridden high school in the bronx or something. Look at the pictures. Saavedra is not some scrawny kid. Nuno is not some hardcore gangster. There are a number of things he could have done. If it comes down to it, he could have fought him (preferably during school). Most people with this experience will tell you that after you fight back, bullies will stop messing with you. It doesn't matter if you win or lose. This is what happened in my eyes. Nuno was like "im gonna beat yo ass today." Then he told his friends to come watch for his rl-peen. Saavedra got off early, nuno followed, he started slapping/tapping his head (no i dont think he sucker punched him with full force). He turned around with the knife and lunged. Its really fucking stupid. I seriously doubt Saavedra EVER was in danger of great physical harm or death. Nuno probably just screwed with him on a constant basis and Saavedra just couldnt take it any more. The real problem is schools being too lenient on bullying all across the country. The psychological damage is almost always greater than any physical harm you might get. After a year of this, the kid finally snapped.
Here's what I read: "I read the article and the documents, and decided that what they say are wrong, and he probably just was poking the back of the other kids head, the kid turned around and went ham on him with a knife."
He didn't want to fight. He was backed into a corner and was being beaten on. He defended himself, and even after getting stabbed, his attacker didn't stop. What the fuck is he supposed to do? How you just throw out the facts of the story and come to a conclusion based on things you made up in your mind is beyond me.
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On January 12 2012 09:59 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 00:49 shizna wrote:On January 12 2012 00:34 Myles wrote:
I'm going to paraphrase a bit here, but this is part of the report that has been posted numerous times.
"Jorge got off the bus and was walking to his friends house when Dylan approached from behind and punched Jorge in the back of the head. Jorge kept walking to avoid the confrontation and Dylan started throwing more punches to the back of the head. At this time Jorge heard Dylan's friends shouting to 'Hit him again' and 'Hit him harder'. Their voices were getting louder and closer and Jorge was reportedly starting to feel light headed. Jorge felt his life was threatened and thought the other boys might jump in since there were so many people around. This is when he reached for his pocket knife, bent forward, and stabbed Dylan with his knife as the punches continued. Evem after that, he heard Dylan telling his friends 'Go get him'.
Keep in mind, this is after he already tried to get off the bus early to avoid the fight.
that sounds like a very unlikely and one-sided plee. although if that is a 100% accurate statement then i guess he didn't have much of a choice. however, i still think he should be punished for using deadly force. it's unfortunate, but in my opinion the world would be a more f**ked up and scary place if people were simply allowed to kill anyone who initiated an old fashioned fight with them. i have friends who are nice, but they get into a lot of 'nothing' fights when they're drunk. if you go to drink in a bar, this sort of thing is normal. it would scare the hell out of me if i found out that it was legal for some guy to turn around and stick a broken bottle into my friend's throat... that's a f***ed up world. If some drunk asshole tries to fight me in a bar, I will stick a broken bottle into his throat. There is no way in hell that I am risking injury for some POS who can't keep his hands to himself. And there is no way in hell that I am trusting that this drunk POS that is assaulting me is actually "just a nice guy!". Fuck that. If he's so nice, he wouldn't be assaulting people.
Exactly. Once you randomly assault someone you know longer have the right to not get stabbed. I'm so tired of this regulation of what the victim has to do - "he should have done X, not done Y." How about the aggressor shouldn't have attacked someone? None of this would have happened if he didn't.
Thank you legislators for stand your ground / castle laws. Tired of the regulation of victims while excuses are made for aggressors who are far worse.
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On January 12 2012 09:57 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 09:40 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
Why should he stand trial for killing someone if the killing was legal and justified?
Stand Your Ground is the only sane way of having it. We try people all the time for things that they're eventually acquitted of. It's part of the due process of law, which I think is far preferable to a vague statute like "Stand Your Ground" precluding a trial entirely.
Due process is only needed when a law is broken. We don't have trials for people who open their doors with a key because that happens to be entirely legal. Same thing with violent actions covered by the stand your ground laws. Legislators have clearly state that this is within the realm of legality, thus precluding the need for any trial in the same way that we don't have trials for all legal actions.
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EPT
