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On January 11 2012 18:11 Dubsy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 18:04 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On January 11 2012 17:58 Dubsy wrote:On January 11 2012 17:21 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
My god there is a lot of ignorant garbage in here. This isn't murder, and it isn't about "justice", or the bully deserving to die. Its self defense. He didn't plan on killing the kid, he was attacked and stabbed the guy. How many days in your school career did you pack a deadly weapon in the morning? Every time a group of thugs threatened to beat the shit out of me. So zero. And that's why you're so clueless. If you had spent one second in a tough area you'd know you don't want a weapon. If you're bringing a lethal weapon with you you become a target and unless you are trained in close quarters combat there is a good chance the knife is getting used on the "victim." I haven't seen any mention of this angry mob of bullies you're talking about. It was one kid picking on him. He didn't want to deal with it, he didn't want to fight him, he didn't want to get help so he decided to stab his classmate TWELVE times so he wouldn't have to put up with it any more. Fair and logical, IMO. Good example to set if I ever get pissed off at my boss or spouse or authority figure.
tell me how he would get help exactly, bully goes so far as following him home and trying to beat him up on the way, how exactly anyone can help him? mby hire professional guard or something?
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On January 11 2012 18:12 smokeyhoodoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 18:11 Dubsy wrote:On January 11 2012 18:04 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On January 11 2012 17:58 Dubsy wrote:On January 11 2012 17:21 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
My god there is a lot of ignorant garbage in here. This isn't murder, and it isn't about "justice", or the bully deserving to die. Its self defense. He didn't plan on killing the kid, he was attacked and stabbed the guy. How many days in your school career did you pack a deadly weapon in the morning? Every time a group of thugs threatened to beat the shit out of me. So zero. And that's why you're so clueless. If you had spent one second in a tough area you'd know you don't want a weapon. If you're bringing a lethal weapon with you you become a target and unless you are trained in close quarters combat there is a good chance the knife is getting used on the "victim." I haven't seen any mention of this angry mob of bullies you're talking about. It was one kid picking on him. He didn't want to deal with it, he didn't want to fight him, he didn't want to get help so he decided to stab his classmate TWELVE times so he wouldn't have to put up with it any more. Fair and logical, IMO. Good example to set if I ever get pissed off at my boss or spouse or authority figure. Maybe you should read about the incident before calling me clueless. Lol, I'm interested in what ghetto you're from now. What streets did you grow up on gangsta?
Holy smokes I was just throwing darts when I called you clueless but I was right on the money!
A circle of students around a fight isn't some band of marauding hell raisers. It's kids trying to watch a fight.
SPOILERS: Kids like fights.
And that's what they expected to see, a fight. Barbaric or not that's how bullies are dealt with. Instead they got a first hand view of a (non murder).
It baffles me you've never seen a group of kids circle around a fight. Were you home schooled?
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On January 11 2012 18:13 Dephy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 18:11 Dubsy wrote:On January 11 2012 18:04 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On January 11 2012 17:58 Dubsy wrote:On January 11 2012 17:21 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
My god there is a lot of ignorant garbage in here. This isn't murder, and it isn't about "justice", or the bully deserving to die. Its self defense. He didn't plan on killing the kid, he was attacked and stabbed the guy. How many days in your school career did you pack a deadly weapon in the morning? Every time a group of thugs threatened to beat the shit out of me. So zero. And that's why you're so clueless. If you had spent one second in a tough area you'd know you don't want a weapon. If you're bringing a lethal weapon with you you become a target and unless you are trained in close quarters combat there is a good chance the knife is getting used on the "victim." I haven't seen any mention of this angry mob of bullies you're talking about. It was one kid picking on him. He didn't want to deal with it, he didn't want to fight him, he didn't want to get help so he decided to stab his classmate TWELVE times so he wouldn't have to put up with it any more. Fair and logical, IMO. Good example to set if I ever get pissed off at my boss or spouse or authority figure. tell me how he would get help exactly, bully goes so far as following him home and trying to beat him up on the way, how exactly anyone can help him? mby hire professional guard or something?
How ANYONE can help him? Oh gee, Idk, talk to the parents, police, school, media?
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On January 11 2012 18:18 Dubsy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 18:12 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On January 11 2012 18:11 Dubsy wrote:On January 11 2012 18:04 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On January 11 2012 17:58 Dubsy wrote:On January 11 2012 17:21 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
My god there is a lot of ignorant garbage in here. This isn't murder, and it isn't about "justice", or the bully deserving to die. Its self defense. He didn't plan on killing the kid, he was attacked and stabbed the guy. How many days in your school career did you pack a deadly weapon in the morning? Every time a group of thugs threatened to beat the shit out of me. So zero. And that's why you're so clueless. If you had spent one second in a tough area you'd know you don't want a weapon. If you're bringing a lethal weapon with you you become a target and unless you are trained in close quarters combat there is a good chance the knife is getting used on the "victim." I haven't seen any mention of this angry mob of bullies you're talking about. It was one kid picking on him. He didn't want to deal with it, he didn't want to fight him, he didn't want to get help so he decided to stab his classmate TWELVE times so he wouldn't have to put up with it any more. Fair and logical, IMO. Good example to set if I ever get pissed off at my boss or spouse or authority figure. Maybe you should read about the incident before calling me clueless. Lol, I'm interested in what ghetto you're from now. What streets did you grow up on gangsta? Holy smokes I was just throwing darts when I called you clueless but I was right on the money! A circle of students around a fight isn't some band of marauding hell raisers. It's kids trying to watch a fight. SPOILERS: Kids like fights. And that's what they expected to see, a fight. Barbaric or not that's how bullies are dealt with. Instead they got a first hand view of a (non murder). It baffles me you've never seen a group of kids circle around a fight. Were you home schooled?
So are you gonna read about the incident or not?
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Sigh, can't really stand all the bashing about people's values towards life and death. Being civilized is about respecting other people's customs, values, and ideas, not about avoiding "barbaric" issues.
Yes, I get where some people are coming from to think that it is murder, but at the same time, I find that this is also an accepted case of self defense.
We do not live in a "perfect ideal world," or whatever you want it to be. Yes, we can try to strive towards want we want in an ideal world, but we also have to face reality and make laws and regulations to be realistic to apply to us now. If it was an ideal world, no one would be bullied and no one would have to self-defend themselves to that degree. That is only a dream, and not a realistic handle on the world. The world is both a beautiful and ugly place to live.
If you are disgusted by what people are defending about what happened in this case, then you have not come to the realization of the world we live in. Many people have died for what our current society has become, and many more will die to change it in the future. We can change laws, rights, regulations, values, culture, but we can't change our basic human instincts. Humans have killed and oppressed each other over the same things throughout history. The only change in the present is, we have made it more complicated in how we do it. I don't really believe that we are as civilized as we think we are, but we still have the opportunity to better ourselves.
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Plain and simple though, I don't understand how anyone could think this was murder. I really don't. He was attacked, knew he was going to be attacked and brought a knife for protection. He said multiple times he didn't want to fight, and only used his knife after every other option had been exhausted.
The idea that this could be construed as murder is completely stupid.
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I'll start out by stating I believe the decision made was the correct one - and that I am pleased there appears to have been a significant amount of evidence produced in order for this decision to stand. To further clarify, I am only commenting on the charge of Murder, if it was say Manslaughter I may consider it differently (especially following further information, I will explain this further down).
Coming from the perspective of someone who is generally very critical of "extensive" self defense laws, I can see how the initial perspective of someone might view this case skeptically. It would be a statement I think most if not all posters could agree with to state that this level of violence is seldom (but not never) expected in a case of any fight,. The presence of Anti-Bullying experts in reference to testimony, as well as the duration (over a year) and the severity (enough to make him bring a knife, 'setting up' fights in advance supported by a group) implies that this was pretty abusive and didn't exactly have a good impact on the defendant's psyche. I wish there had been some kind of reference to the psychological state of the defendant beyond "bully victim though" - bringing a knife is a pretty big escalation though, there's more we haven't read of here.
The situation of the fight itself as reported for me, supports this - he was attempting to disengage from the violent behaviour and made no aggressive actions. He was struck on the back of the head (which implies that he was not facing his attacker) and then hit some more. For me, given all of the previous context - this is where on my own personal standard of ethics, the use of any and all means to defend oneself was justified. Getting hit in the back of the head in a 'fight' you clearly don't want to have implies the other person is attacking you from behind. This kind of injury can cause quite a bit of damage - especially if you aren't prepared (and let's make no mistake that many 'standard' fights can result in someone getting killed). Given he was the subject of over a full year of abuse, given the context, I can see why this would occur.
Let's make no mistake here - I acknowledge that self defense is more complicated than that. We have to consider the amount of force. I'm sure there was a look at whether all of these stabs happened as the frightened reactions of a boy defending himself where he sincerely felt threatened, or something more sinister. I sincerely wish that there had been some kind of clarification in the coverage I've read on this 'incident' as to how that happened, but it could well be difficult to see, or remember in the shock/heat of the moment. Perhaps some of those were even done after the victim was "out of action". However again, the context for me creates an acceptable means by which this can be considered and excused, especially if the testimony of the experts was compelling (and I think it's implied it was, yknow). Those whom sincerely feel their life is threatened - and I think it would be difficult to argue the subject of repeated bullying for a year engaged in a ring-fight and being punched in the back of the head is not going to feel like their life is threatened. A knife it can be argued, is an easily accessed weapon in this instance.
This isn't something to celebrate, at all. It's a horrific thing to have to kill somebody, I would wish it on no other person. Even less so on a young man who sincerely felt he had no other option available in a fight which to him, clearly represented in the buildup of a year of abuse. There may be a case for manslaughter possible if it was clearly a gross overuse of force - but I don't' see enough evidence to believe or disbelieve this because of the situation where self defense was required (I would need probably more information). I'm seeing a scared kid who wanted to make something stop because it hurt every day he saw the victim, and when he was pushed into a situation where he could not run away with a weapon in his hand that he'd hoped would push this moment away, he did the only thing he could do.
He fought with it.
The end result is saddening, it sincerely is. By no means would I prefer this outcome with the bully dead, and I certainly don't cheer his passing. I wish there was more information because without some kind of record of the fight all we have to go on is witness reports which are not complete, and context and history. It might well be that the defendant just couldn't deal with this, and should be manslaughter. I fervently hope that the testimony of the experts and the witnesses was thorough and intensive - and left no doubt as to the defendant's state of mind (as implied in the article). But going on the context and history, I can understand the ruling with respect to "Not-Murder". I certainly don't advocate violent conduct to end most situations of bullying, and I do not see this ruling as creating a slippery slope either - I would abhor that notion. For me, the question that has to be asked and answered is "in the defendant's head, right then, right there - given his state of mind and information he could reasonably be expected to have, did he feel his life was at risk", and I can see enough of argument to cause doubt as to his guilt -> not guilty.
I suppose I'd have to read more about this case, but so far "not murder" due to doubt produced, appears to be the right one. The complicated question is about the force involved and without more information I find it hard to comment on that one, but given the length of bullying and how the fight went, I do again have enough doubt as to guilt. If the charge brought forward was manslaughter and I knew more about it, I might have to reconsider my opinion.
* although I am loath to call any bullying this, I can't think of a better terminology.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2082329/Jorge-Saavedra-15-Youngest-US-escape-murder-charge-stand-ground-law.html
That reports the 12 stabs / pocket knife, for those wondering.
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I get a strong feeling a lot of people here were bullied and are just gleeful to see one die. As such they will justify it however they can. Its sick. Stabbing someone 12 times isn't self defense its rage and murder. He got off because he's a kid. As an adult you go down for murder with this every time.
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On January 11 2012 19:31 Detwiler wrote:
I get a strong feeling a lot of people here were bullied and are just gleeful to see one die. As such they will justify it however they can. Its sick. Stabbing someone 12 times isn't self defense its rage and murder. He got off because he's a kid. As an adult you go down for murder with this every time.
lol what? if someone attacked u, you have every right to defend yourself, with whatever means possible, whatever your age is, dont talk shit ok?
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On January 11 2012 19:31 Detwiler wrote:
I get a strong feeling a lot of people here were bullied and are just gleeful to see one die. As such they will justify it however they can. Its sick. Stabbing someone 12 times isn't self defense its rage and murder. He got off because he's a kid. As an adult you go down for murder with this every time.
You guys keep saying it's murder when it obviously is not. With rage or not rage, this is NOT murder. Face it already...
Ofc i was never bullied and think this is justified.
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On January 11 2012 19:35 Dephy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 19:31 Detwiler wrote:
I get a strong feeling a lot of people here were bullied and are just gleeful to see one die. As such they will justify it however they can. Its sick. Stabbing someone 12 times isn't self defense its rage and murder. He got off because he's a kid. As an adult you go down for murder with this every time. lol what? if someone attacked u, you have every right to defend yourself, with whatever means possible, whatever your age is, dont talk shit ok?
No you dont have the right to kill some one who starts a fight with you. I dont see were people come up with this. So you are saying every fight i have ever been in i coulda KILLED the guy and its fine? Were you born stupid or did you have to work to get that way.
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On January 11 2012 19:38 Detwiler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 19:35 Dephy wrote:On January 11 2012 19:31 Detwiler wrote:
I get a strong feeling a lot of people here were bullied and are just gleeful to see one die. As such they will justify it however they can. Its sick. Stabbing someone 12 times isn't self defense its rage and murder. He got off because he's a kid. As an adult you go down for murder with this every time. lol what? if someone attacked u, you have every right to defend yourself, with whatever means possible, whatever your age is, dont talk shit ok? No you dont have the right to kill some one who starts a fight with you. I dont see were people come up with this. So you are saying every fight i have ever been in i coulda KILLED the guy and its fine? Were you born stupid or did you have to work to get that way.
clearly the law states, if u are afraid for your life, you have right to you use deadly force.....
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Wait he stabbed him 12 times? Sure sounds like self defence, I mean hey stabbing him one time doesn't defend you does it? Oh wait..
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On January 11 2012 19:42 KryptoStorm wrote:
Wait he stabbed him 12 times? Sure sounds like self defence, I mean hey stabbing him one time doesn't defend you does it? Oh wait..
You clearly have read the thread. Oh wait...
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Nice law system America, hey some guy has a few pics of underage kids on his PC, SENTENCED TO LIFE IN PRISON. Hey some kid stabs another kid 12 times, no punishment! 
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On January 11 2012 19:43 nam nam wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 19:42 KryptoStorm wrote:
Wait he stabbed him 12 times? Sure sounds like self defence, I mean hey stabbing him one time doesn't defend you does it? Oh wait.. You clearly have read the thread. Oh wait...
Well actually, the original OP didn't mention it.. thank you, come again.
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On January 11 2012 19:42 KryptoStorm wrote:
Wait he stabbed him 12 times? Sure sounds like self defence, I mean hey stabbing him one time doesn't defend you does it? Oh wait..
depending where he stabbed and how deep, it wont stop them, just make them angryer.
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On January 11 2012 19:45 Dephy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 19:42 KryptoStorm wrote:
Wait he stabbed him 12 times? Sure sounds like self defence, I mean hey stabbing him one time doesn't defend you does it? Oh wait.. depending where he stabbed and how deep, it wont stop them, just make them angryer.
Yeah because kids can take many blows with a knife and they just keep coming!
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On January 11 2012 19:47 KryptoStorm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 19:45 Dephy wrote:On January 11 2012 19:42 KryptoStorm wrote:
Wait he stabbed him 12 times? Sure sounds like self defence, I mean hey stabbing him one time doesn't defend you does it? Oh wait.. depending where he stabbed and how deep, it wont stop them, just make them angryer. Yeah because kids can take many blows with a knife and they just keep coming!
pretty much.
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EPT
