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On January 10 2012 18:01 nennx wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 17:57 Skwid1g wrote:On January 10 2012 17:48 nennx wrote:On January 10 2012 17:40 Uncultured wrote:On January 10 2012 17:34 nennx wrote:On January 10 2012 17:30 tripper688 wrote:On January 10 2012 17:25 nennx wrote:On January 10 2012 17:24 tripper688 wrote:On January 10 2012 17:22 nennx wrote:On January 10 2012 17:19 SolHeiM wrote:
[quote]
Again.. It wasn't murder. Yeah, its not murder anymore because of laws like stand your ground. At least murder rates are down. LMFAO Actually, even in states without stand your ground, chances are it would not have been murder. No malicious premeditation means he would be hit with manslaughter if anything at all. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about and are just trying to get a rise out of people now. Bringing a weapon to school when you know you're going to be in a fight isn't premeditated? He never intended to use it and did everything in his power to avoid the fight. Again, maybe you should read the article and find out what happened. Thats right, he just brought the knife to school when he knew there was going to be a fight. I read the report, he had the knife in his pocket and used it when attacked. The law says hes innocent since its ok to kill unarmed people who threaten you. Are you really trying to argue that you can only use a weapon in a fight if you don't know you're going to be attacked? Or are your saying that defending yourself from possible death with a weapon should never be allowed? Yes, I'm sure the kid was actually going to die. These kinds of fights always result in death. The problem with the law is that all it requires is that the "victim" feels like they are in serious danger, even if they are not. If he didn't stab the kid 12 times, he probably would have ended up with a black eye and/or a bloody noise. Now he is probably even more fucked up mentally and is behind in education and will probably never get a proper one. It also sends the message that it is ok to kill people who bully you. And if he was seriously harmed? It's happened in the past and will continue to happen. Saying "he probably would have ended up with..." is a baseless assumption, he could have very well ended up hurt or even killed. It's happened before in cases very similar to this. What he did was wrong, but it's the aggressor's fault this happened and to argue that he was not in danger is just ridiculous. He wasn't in real danger. Its the aggressor's fault, but that doesn't mean that stabbing someone 12 times is okay either. To argue that it is okay to kill anyone because you feel threatened by them is just as ridiculous (which is what the law says).
I'm pretty sure I can stab you 12 times with a small pocketknife and you could walk away. Just saying. It's pretty hard to incapacitate someone with a 2 inch blade unless you either know what you're doing or get a lucky shot in. Especially if you're already disoriented from you know...the beating that you're suffering at the hands of a bully. 12 stab wounds =/= 12 stab wounds in vital areas =/= the guy was down and he was just whaling on him with a knife.
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On January 10 2012 18:03 nennx wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 17:58 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
I think nennx is mentally deficient. Not only does he have absolutely no idea of what he's talking about, he's not even trying to bring any sort of a counter-argument to justify his stance. Can we please not think of him as a troll but as an idiot? Thank you.
This just in -- Thinking its not okay to kill someone because they are threatening you makes you an idiot! Good one bud How can there be any other counter argument other than its just a completely fucked up law that should never exist.
It's amusing yet rather sad how you fail to understand that it was not a threat, but the victim was in fact being beaten by someone older and arguably more powerful.
On January 10 2012 18:06 InFdude wrote:
I don't agree with the judge.And what kind of a stupid law is that?So basically any time I'm in even a small beef with someone as long as I think I might get hurt it's ok for me to go on a killig spree.Kid should go to jail but that's just my oppinion.
There's a difference between "i think i might get hurt" and "this guy has been harming me physically and mentally for a long while before i decided to try and defend myself for the first time".
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On January 10 2012 18:05 isleyofthenorth wrote:
wow some people in this thread actually defend this murder...
The majority of people commenting do. Also its not murder, say killing at least. And yeah, you're just going to be fighting an uphill battle if you say things like that.
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On January 10 2012 18:06 InFdude wrote:
I don't agree with the judge.And what kind of a stupid law is that?So basically any time I'm in even a small beef with someone as long as I think I might get hurt it's ok for me to go on a killig spree.Kid should go to jail but that's just my oppinion.
Say what? The kid didn't stab someone over a beef because he thought he might get hurt. He stabbed someone who was chasing him with the intent to do bodily harm by kicking his ass and repeatedly SUCKER PUNCHING HIS HEAD AS HE WAS RUNNING AWAY.
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On January 10 2012 18:04 nennx wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 18:00 Pleiades wrote:On January 10 2012 17:55 nennx wrote:
Death isn't a reasonable outcome of a high school fight.
While true, there is still the possibility of death and more likely serious permanent injury. The bully victim is defending himself to remove or lower those possibilities. Stop generalizing and assuming shit is going to happen this way or that way when there is no real way to know unless it already happened. Anyways, I think we'd know if the kids actually wanted to kill him or whatever. Something tells me the "victim" would have taken quite the pounding after stabbing the "suspect."
It's not about their intent to kill, it's about the possibility of them killing him or physically harming him. Sure they could of had a "regular" high school fight, but one wrong hit or move could end someone's life unintentionally. The bully victim is not going to take that chance no matter how low it is. He has the right to defend himself against those odds if someone is willing to bring them.
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On January 10 2012 17:58 nennx wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 17:54 -y0shi- wrote:On January 10 2012 17:50 nennx wrote:On January 10 2012 17:35 kittensrcute wrote:On January 10 2012 17:34 nennx wrote:On January 10 2012 17:30 tripper688 wrote:On January 10 2012 17:25 nennx wrote:On January 10 2012 17:24 tripper688 wrote:On January 10 2012 17:22 nennx wrote:On January 10 2012 17:19 SolHeiM wrote:
[quote]
Again.. It wasn't murder. Yeah, its not murder anymore because of laws like stand your ground. At least murder rates are down. LMFAO Actually, even in states without stand your ground, chances are it would not have been murder. No malicious premeditation means he would be hit with manslaughter if anything at all. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about and are just trying to get a rise out of people now. Bringing a weapon to school when you know you're going to be in a fight isn't premeditated? He never intended to use it and did everything in his power to avoid the fight. Again, maybe you should read the article and find out what happened. Thats right, he just brought the knife to school when he knew there was going to be a fight. I read the report, he had the knife in his pocket and used it when attacked. The law says hes innocent since its ok to kill unarmed people who threaten you. so if a group of kids are beating you and you have a knife on you for self defense because you've been constantly bullied, you wouldn't use the knife? Actually, a group of kids weren't beating him, one person was and 2 others were encouraging him to continue. And no, I wouldn't kill someone just because they were beating me up, and If I did for whatever reason, I wouldn't expect to get away with no charges. So if someone who is bigger and older then you and does fighting sports starts beating you up youll just take it? He did what he had to do, he fought back to defend himself, nothing else. He did what he had to do to protect himself. I would at least try to fight back or maybe just take it. I find it ridiculous that stabbing someone 12 times is considered protecting yourself. This goes a bit beyond protecting yourself, and should be treated this way.
This...
"Protecting yourself" ... With a knive you got on you for that intent, is allready "borderline" (just get pepperspray or some other not as leathel self defensetool). By stabbing someone even once you are accepting the dead of your "opponent".
Stabbing 12 times? Thats murder.
Ask yourself this:
What if he would have taken a gun and shot 12 times at the guy? Would that also be selfdefense?...
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This story marks a step in the right direction. Is there plenty of blame to go around? Of course.
The parents, kids and school failed both students in ways that need to be adressed specifically but there will always be bad kids with bad parents going to bad schools. This kind of case sets a standard for those interactions.
Anybody who physically attacks somebody else should go into it with the assumption that they will die as a result and if you survive then they were lucky. This is an idea that needs to be drilled home for everybody and a few more cases like this would surely do the trick.
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On January 10 2012 18:06 nennx wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 18:05 dinmsab wrote:On January 10 2012 18:03 Jamial wrote:
Regardless of whether authorities could do better, parents could do better etc. - I still don't accept this being pure self-defense, regardless of his young age. He brought a knife with him. A KNIFE. He was up against someone stronger than himself, you suggesting he stand up and try to fight back? Would that be self defense to you? That would be some pretty shitty self defense imo. What, would you rather stab someone to death and ruin a bunch of people's lives than get beat up a little bit? What kind of fucked up world do we live in, seriously?
Again, nice presumption that he intended on killing someone. Strange all that avoiding the fight he went to if his aim was killing someone. Clearly the kid would have preferred to not fight in the first place and that the bully didn't die.
And no one is saying they would rather murder someone. They are defending the kids actions in defending himself.
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On January 10 2012 18:07 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 18:03 nennx wrote:On January 10 2012 17:58 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
I think nennx is mentally deficient. Not only does he have absolutely no idea of what he's talking about, he's not even trying to bring any sort of a counter-argument to justify his stance. Can we please not think of him as a troll but as an idiot? Thank you.
This just in -- Thinking its not okay to kill someone because they are threatening you makes you an idiot! Good one bud How can there be any other counter argument other than its just a completely fucked up law that should never exist. It's amusing yet rather sad how you fail to understand that it was not a threat, but the victim was in fact being beaten by someone older and arguably more powerful.
Maybe if you read some about the law you would realize that this isn't what is required for you to use deadly force.
In this case, he was hit a few times before using deadly force, which is at least a little bit more justifiable, but still not okay.
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On January 10 2012 17:55 nennx wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 17:51 Uncultured wrote:On January 10 2012 17:48 nennx wrote:On January 10 2012 17:40 Uncultured wrote:On January 10 2012 17:34 nennx wrote:On January 10 2012 17:30 tripper688 wrote:On January 10 2012 17:25 nennx wrote:On January 10 2012 17:24 tripper688 wrote:On January 10 2012 17:22 nennx wrote:On January 10 2012 17:19 SolHeiM wrote:
[quote]
Again.. It wasn't murder. Yeah, its not murder anymore because of laws like stand your ground. At least murder rates are down. LMFAO Actually, even in states without stand your ground, chances are it would not have been murder. No malicious premeditation means he would be hit with manslaughter if anything at all. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about and are just trying to get a rise out of people now. Bringing a weapon to school when you know you're going to be in a fight isn't premeditated? He never intended to use it and did everything in his power to avoid the fight. Again, maybe you should read the article and find out what happened. Thats right, he just brought the knife to school when he knew there was going to be a fight. I read the report, he had the knife in his pocket and used it when attacked. The law says hes innocent since its ok to kill unarmed people who threaten you. Are you really trying to argue that you can only use a weapon in a fight if you don't know you're going to be attacked? Or are your saying that defending yourself from possible death with a weapon should never be allowed? Yes, I'm sure the kid was actually going to die. These kinds of fights always result in death. The problem with the law is that all it requires is that the "victim" feels like they are in serious danger, even if they are not. If he didn't stab the kid 12 times, he probably would have ended up with a black eye and/or a bloody noise. Now he is probably even more fucked up mentally and is behind in education and will probably never get a proper one. It also sends the message that it is ok to kill people who bully you. The idea isn't that fights like this always result in death. It's that they CAN and sometimes DO. And don't make me pull up the wealth of instances where this has happened. All you need to is google. You can't argue for what would have "probably" happened. You have to account for all reasonable outcomes. Death isn't a reasonable outcome of a high school fight.
Death is an outcome within the realm of possibility in any mismatched fight involving grown or almost grown humans. Even in sanctioned ones. It's why there are things like weight classes in combat sports.
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On January 10 2012 18:08 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 17:58 nennx wrote:On January 10 2012 17:54 -y0shi- wrote:On January 10 2012 17:50 nennx wrote:On January 10 2012 17:35 kittensrcute wrote:On January 10 2012 17:34 nennx wrote:On January 10 2012 17:30 tripper688 wrote:On January 10 2012 17:25 nennx wrote:On January 10 2012 17:24 tripper688 wrote:On January 10 2012 17:22 nennx wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, its not murder anymore because of laws like stand your ground.
At least murder rates are down. LMFAO Actually, even in states without stand your ground, chances are it would not have been murder. No malicious premeditation means he would be hit with manslaughter if anything at all. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about and are just trying to get a rise out of people now. Bringing a weapon to school when you know you're going to be in a fight isn't premeditated? He never intended to use it and did everything in his power to avoid the fight. Again, maybe you should read the article and find out what happened. Thats right, he just brought the knife to school when he knew there was going to be a fight. I read the report, he had the knife in his pocket and used it when attacked. The law says hes innocent since its ok to kill unarmed people who threaten you. so if a group of kids are beating you and you have a knife on you for self defense because you've been constantly bullied, you wouldn't use the knife? Actually, a group of kids weren't beating him, one person was and 2 others were encouraging him to continue. And no, I wouldn't kill someone just because they were beating me up, and If I did for whatever reason, I wouldn't expect to get away with no charges. So if someone who is bigger and older then you and does fighting sports starts beating you up youll just take it? He did what he had to do, he fought back to defend himself, nothing else. He did what he had to do to protect himself. I would at least try to fight back or maybe just take it. I find it ridiculous that stabbing someone 12 times is considered protecting yourself. This goes a bit beyond protecting yourself, and should be treated this way. This... "Protecting yourself" ... With a knive you got on you for that intent, is allready "borderline" (just get pepperspray or some other not as leathel self defensetool). By stabbing someone even once you are accepting the dead of your "opponent". Stabbing 12 times? Thats murder. Ask yourself this: What if he would have taken a gun and shot 12 times at the guy? Would that also be selfdefense?...
Pepper spray isn't always easy to come by. And remember, this is a 14yo taking English as a second language classes. Cut him a break.
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On January 10 2012 17:55 nennx wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 17:51 Uncultured wrote:On January 10 2012 17:48 nennx wrote:On January 10 2012 17:40 Uncultured wrote:On January 10 2012 17:34 nennx wrote:On January 10 2012 17:30 tripper688 wrote:On January 10 2012 17:25 nennx wrote:On January 10 2012 17:24 tripper688 wrote:On January 10 2012 17:22 nennx wrote:On January 10 2012 17:19 SolHeiM wrote:
[quote]
Again.. It wasn't murder. Yeah, its not murder anymore because of laws like stand your ground. At least murder rates are down. LMFAO Actually, even in states without stand your ground, chances are it would not have been murder. No malicious premeditation means he would be hit with manslaughter if anything at all. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about and are just trying to get a rise out of people now. Bringing a weapon to school when you know you're going to be in a fight isn't premeditated? He never intended to use it and did everything in his power to avoid the fight. Again, maybe you should read the article and find out what happened. Thats right, he just brought the knife to school when he knew there was going to be a fight. I read the report, he had the knife in his pocket and used it when attacked. The law says hes innocent since its ok to kill unarmed people who threaten you. Are you really trying to argue that you can only use a weapon in a fight if you don't know you're going to be attacked? Or are your saying that defending yourself from possible death with a weapon should never be allowed? Yes, I'm sure the kid was actually going to die. These kinds of fights always result in death. The problem with the law is that all it requires is that the "victim" feels like they are in serious danger, even if they are not. If he didn't stab the kid 12 times, he probably would have ended up with a black eye and/or a bloody noise. Now he is probably even more fucked up mentally and is behind in education and will probably never get a proper one. It also sends the message that it is ok to kill people who bully you. The idea isn't that fights like this always result in death. It's that they CAN and sometimes DO. And don't make me pull up the wealth of instances where this has happened. All you need to is google. You can't argue for what would have "probably" happened. You have to account for all reasonable outcomes. Death isn't a reasonable outcome of a high school fight.
You're going in circles. We all agree it isn't reasonable. IT's also not reasonable to blame the kid for this, as he wasn't in a state of rationality.
It's perfectly okay to not like that this kid died, or the circumstances in which he did.. It's a tragedy. But it is in NO way bullied kids fault.
If you really continue with this nonsense you're either trolling or truly incapable of seeing this from an outside, perspective. As well as the victims perspective.
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On January 10 2012 18:08 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 17:58 nennx wrote:On January 10 2012 17:54 -y0shi- wrote:On January 10 2012 17:50 nennx wrote:On January 10 2012 17:35 kittensrcute wrote:On January 10 2012 17:34 nennx wrote:On January 10 2012 17:30 tripper688 wrote:On January 10 2012 17:25 nennx wrote:On January 10 2012 17:24 tripper688 wrote:On January 10 2012 17:22 nennx wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, its not murder anymore because of laws like stand your ground.
At least murder rates are down. LMFAO Actually, even in states without stand your ground, chances are it would not have been murder. No malicious premeditation means he would be hit with manslaughter if anything at all. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about and are just trying to get a rise out of people now. Bringing a weapon to school when you know you're going to be in a fight isn't premeditated? He never intended to use it and did everything in his power to avoid the fight. Again, maybe you should read the article and find out what happened. Thats right, he just brought the knife to school when he knew there was going to be a fight. I read the report, he had the knife in his pocket and used it when attacked. The law says hes innocent since its ok to kill unarmed people who threaten you. so if a group of kids are beating you and you have a knife on you for self defense because you've been constantly bullied, you wouldn't use the knife? Actually, a group of kids weren't beating him, one person was and 2 others were encouraging him to continue. And no, I wouldn't kill someone just because they were beating me up, and If I did for whatever reason, I wouldn't expect to get away with no charges. So if someone who is bigger and older then you and does fighting sports starts beating you up youll just take it? He did what he had to do, he fought back to defend himself, nothing else. He did what he had to do to protect himself. I would at least try to fight back or maybe just take it. I find it ridiculous that stabbing someone 12 times is considered protecting yourself. This goes a bit beyond protecting yourself, and should be treated this way. This... "Protecting yourself" ... With a knive you got on you for that intent, is allready "borderline" (just get pepperspray or some other not as leathel self defensetool). By stabbing someone even once you are accepting the dead of your "opponent". Stabbing 12 times? Thats murder. Ask yourself this: What if he would have taken a gun and shot 12 times at the guy? Would that also be selfdefense?...
Yes, that would also be self defense. What on earth do you think the ring of supporting bullies would have done if he'd pepper sprayed the first guy? Kid would've gotten pulped.
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If you unreasonably assault someone you forfeit your rights as far as I see it, its a shitty out come but really the kid acted within his rights to defend himself. If it wasn't kids and it was a random mugging on the street people wouldn't think twice. Don't start fights, ever.
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On January 10 2012 18:06 InFdude wrote:
I don't agree with the judge.And what kind of a stupid law is that?So basically any time I'm in even a small beef with someone as long as I think I might get hurt it's ok for me to go on a killig spree.Kid should go to jail but that's just my oppinion.
Wow. Way to exaggerate the killing and underestimate the effects of bullying.
Funny thing is that I have the feeling that if the bullies beat up the kid so much that he died (it has happened where bullies killed their victims), the people here who thinks the victim should be jailed and say "so what?" to the bullying would side with the bullies, saying things like "the victim shouldn't have let it come to that". It just seems like there are people who side with the bully/instigator and blame the victim.
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On January 10 2012 18:11 Uncultured wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 17:55 nennx wrote:On January 10 2012 17:51 Uncultured wrote:On January 10 2012 17:48 nennx wrote:On January 10 2012 17:40 Uncultured wrote:On January 10 2012 17:34 nennx wrote:On January 10 2012 17:30 tripper688 wrote:On January 10 2012 17:25 nennx wrote:On January 10 2012 17:24 tripper688 wrote:On January 10 2012 17:22 nennx wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, its not murder anymore because of laws like stand your ground.
At least murder rates are down. LMFAO Actually, even in states without stand your ground, chances are it would not have been murder. No malicious premeditation means he would be hit with manslaughter if anything at all. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about and are just trying to get a rise out of people now. Bringing a weapon to school when you know you're going to be in a fight isn't premeditated? He never intended to use it and did everything in his power to avoid the fight. Again, maybe you should read the article and find out what happened. Thats right, he just brought the knife to school when he knew there was going to be a fight. I read the report, he had the knife in his pocket and used it when attacked. The law says hes innocent since its ok to kill unarmed people who threaten you. Are you really trying to argue that you can only use a weapon in a fight if you don't know you're going to be attacked? Or are your saying that defending yourself from possible death with a weapon should never be allowed? Yes, I'm sure the kid was actually going to die. These kinds of fights always result in death. The problem with the law is that all it requires is that the "victim" feels like they are in serious danger, even if they are not. If he didn't stab the kid 12 times, he probably would have ended up with a black eye and/or a bloody noise. Now he is probably even more fucked up mentally and is behind in education and will probably never get a proper one. It also sends the message that it is ok to kill people who bully you. The idea isn't that fights like this always result in death. It's that they CAN and sometimes DO. And don't make me pull up the wealth of instances where this has happened. All you need to is google. You can't argue for what would have "probably" happened. You have to account for all reasonable outcomes. Death isn't a reasonable outcome of a high school fight. You're going in circles. We all agree it isn't reasonable. IT's also not reasonable to blame the kid for this, as he wasn't in a state of rationality. It's perfectly okay to not like that this kid died, or the circumstances in which he did.. It's a tragedy. But it is in NO way bullied kids fault.
"But it is in NO way"
it is. he equipped himeself with a knife
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Ahm.. He sprays them too?
What would he have done if the surroundings got angry at him stabbing? Stab them all?
Btw: Still waiting for the explanation as to HOW stabbing 12 times is self defense. Once/Twice.. ok.. 12 fucking times? Try this at home against some meatball and tell me thats "affectual" or "selfdefense"...
Thats stabbing to kill and nothing else.
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On January 10 2012 18:10 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 18:06 nennx wrote:On January 10 2012 18:05 dinmsab wrote:On January 10 2012 18:03 Jamial wrote:
Regardless of whether authorities could do better, parents could do better etc. - I still don't accept this being pure self-defense, regardless of his young age. He brought a knife with him. A KNIFE. He was up against someone stronger than himself, you suggesting he stand up and try to fight back? Would that be self defense to you? That would be some pretty shitty self defense imo. What, would you rather stab someone to death and ruin a bunch of people's lives than get beat up a little bit? What kind of fucked up world do we live in, seriously? Again, nice presumption that he intended on killing someone. Strange all that avoiding the fight he went to if his aim was killing someone. Clearly the kid would have preferred to not fight in the first place and that the bully didn't die. And no one is saying they would rather murder someone. They are defending the kids actions in defending himself.
The kid could have stabbed the kid 10 times while he was down, it still would have been justifiable by this law. In fact, thats probably what happened, do we even have a real report that shows more than one side of the story?
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On January 10 2012 18:06 nennx wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 18:05 dinmsab wrote:On January 10 2012 18:03 Jamial wrote:
Regardless of whether authorities could do better, parents could do better etc. - I still don't accept this being pure self-defense, regardless of his young age. He brought a knife with him. A KNIFE. He was up against someone stronger than himself, you suggesting he stand up and try to fight back? Would that be self defense to you? That would be some pretty shitty self defense imo. What, would you rather stab someone to death and ruin a bunch of people's lives than get beat up a little bit? What kind of fucked up world do we live in, seriously?
I refuse to believe getting punched in the face repeatedly is equal to "getting beat up a little bit". Poor kid wanted to run his ass home but bullies chased him down and beat his ass on the ground anyways. How do you stop that lol? Suddenly stabbing the guy in the gut actually now sounds quite reasonable for self defense.
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EPT
