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On December 14 2011 20:08 hahaimhenry wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:06 msl wrote:On December 14 2011 20:00 iky43210 wrote:On December 14 2011 19:57 msl wrote:On December 14 2011 19:55 Xax wrote:On December 14 2011 19:47 Hagg wrote:
To quote another poster:
Gom should have been professional about being professional.
Naniwa probably deserved some kind of punishment, but GOM handled it more like the average butthurt toddler would than an international league. The justification given (the rule) is WAY too vague, and the personal attack upon Naniwa was dispicable. The funny thing is that the community is bashing Gom for something someone vaguely translated on twitter. Maybe wait for a proper press release with non-lost-in-translation-wording. Well, if the press release doesn't say "Sorry, our mistake, we reverse the decision regarding naniwa" I don't see how phrasing your abuse of power and double standards changes anything. you keep using those words, but I don't think you understand what they mean.. Sure, I will play Abuse of power: ABUSE OF POWER is that situation that exists whenever someone who has POWER over others, (that is, the capacity to impose his or her will on those others) unjustifiably uses that power to EXPLOIT or HARM those others, or through lack of action, ALLOWS exploitation or harm to occur to them. . So GOM HARMS Naniwa by revocing the Code S seed. This harm is UNJUSTIFIED as no existing rule was broken. A double standard is the unjust application of different sets of principles for similar situations. Like applying different punishments (or rahther punishing one instance and not the other) for obviously throwing a meaningles game and doing it in slightly circumspect manner. He just didn't know what the words meant so he asked it in a much harsher way lol
Glad I could help!
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On December 14 2011 20:00 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:58 Sailincieri wrote:
Kids, this is obvious decision, you should understand why...
GSL is tournament for professional players, playing is profession, not some kind of fun.
In GSL they play for audience! Not for themselves. Do you think in normal JOB you can say to your boss that you have bad humor and dont wanna work? NO!
Naniwa, no matter what he think, should just sit in that booth and give fight with all his heart! To respect Korean audience, NesTea, GSL stuff, online audience etc.
And another guy putting up wrong analogies... First of all: I work for the money not my boss. Second if I feel my actualy output of my work doesnt have any impact on my earnings I will only do what is needed and nothing more. So ... lets see what Nani did ... right ... he did only what he needed to do ...
My business management book says I should terminate people with this attitude. I agree with it. Specifically "working only for money" and "I will only do what is needed and nothing more" Instead I should employee someone with less experience who is driven and invested in their work. Sen replacing Naniwa anyone?
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The reason they have given to ban him is applicable to so many other things that have happened and still happen in every game. I do think naniwa deserves some kind of punishment (a warning for instance), but banning him for doing a strategy that cannot win blows this out of proportion. The game didn't even matter and it's the format to blame if a player decides to rather not play a game out. Also the personal attack against naniwa is completely unprofessional and I think gom should be sued for it.
And to all people saying "that's just korean culture": that's bullshit. The GSL is the global starcraft II league and not the korean sc2 league. Gom is trying to be internation so they have to respond to these kind of things in a different way - no matter how you would treat it in korea. If it was korean culture to sentence people forfeiting games with death penalty, should naniwa be killed now? No.
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On December 14 2011 20:04 HyperLethality wrote:
Honestly, I am shocked by the amount of people who are trying to "boycott" Gom, and to be even more frank, I find it ridiculously absurd and stupid of what people are saying to defend NaNiwa. First of all, if you don't want to watch the GSL anymore because of this, boohoo, get out then. Nobody cares, and if you condone NaNiwa's behavior then Gom doesn't need people like you anyway. Second of all, "NaNiwa didn't break any rules" is the most childish argument you could throw at this situation. When you become an "adult" and "mature", you start realizing that your behavior shouldn't be guided by "rules". There's absolutely no excuse for NaNiwa's disrespect. It's not just what he did, but how he did it, understanding the weight of the match even. You guys really want to defend a guy who would do that to his fans? Have some self-respect, damn.
There's a level of respect that you have to show, when you enter someone else's turf. Also, whether or not you're a NesTea fan, he is one of the best players in the world, and when you face someone of that caliber, you bring your best as an acknowledgement of their skill. This was disrespectful. AND EVEN THOUGH, I don't entirely agree that a punishment this severe is necessary, if Gom sees FIT, then so be it. They have every right. NaNiwa shouldn't be babied for any reason whatsoever, and let this be an example and set a standard for all players and a level of professionalism.
TL;DR: NaNiwa represented the foreign community and messed up embarrassingly on someone else's turf, they have every right to punish him. It's not even what he did, but how he did it.
P.S And for many of you who are defending and crying for NaNiwa, at least hide your country or something for crying out loud.
I agree with you. If you follow any sport, you would know that even if the goals of a team are vanished, they still play, they do not cross their arms and behave like children. That's what Naniwa has done. And I am even more disappointed that people here defend Naniwa. At least his behaviour was excusable by the tension accumulated through the previous games.
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This is incredibly stupid. One day they may come up with the rule that players that do SCVs all-in will be banned from the tournament as well. To ban or Not to ban, it's GOM's right. However, if with some situations that never happened before, they just should give warning first. I'll never watch GSL again.
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GSL confirmed for shit tier tournament, just wow...
Dealing with childish behaviour with even worse childish behaviour, way to go..........
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On December 14 2011 20:10 Snorkle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:00 bluQ wrote:On December 14 2011 19:58 Sailincieri wrote:
Kids, this is obvious decision, you should understand why...
GSL is tournament for professional players, playing is profession, not some kind of fun.
In GSL they play for audience! Not for themselves. Do you think in normal JOB you can say to your boss that you have bad humor and dont wanna work? NO!
Naniwa, no matter what he think, should just sit in that booth and give fight with all his heart! To respect Korean audience, NesTea, GSL stuff, online audience etc.
And another guy putting up wrong analogies... First of all: I work for the money not my boss. Second if I feel my actualy output of my work doesnt have any impact on my earnings I will only do what is needed and nothing more. So ... lets see what Nani did ... right ... he did only what he needed to do ... My business management book says I should terminate people with this attitude. I agree with it. Specifically "working only for money" and "I will only do what is needed and nothing more" Instead I should employee someone with less experience who is driven and invested in their work. Sen replacing Naniwa anyone?
and your business will suffer from this decision if you hire someone who can't even do what the original person did.
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On December 14 2011 20:10 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:08 Zalithian wrote:On December 14 2011 20:04 HyperLethality wrote:
Honestly, I am shocked by the amount of people who are trying to "boycott" Gom, and to be even more frank, I find it ridiculously absurd and stupid of what people are saying to defend NaNiwa. First of all, if you don't want to watch the GSL anymore because of this, boohoo, get out then. Nobody cares, and if you condone NaNiwa's behavior then Gom doesn't need people like you anyway. Second of all, "NaNiwa didn't break any rules" is the most childish argument you could throw at this situation. When you become an "adult" and "mature", you start realizing that your behavior shouldn't be guided by "rules". There's absolutely no excuse for NaNiwa's disrespect. It's not just what he did, but how he did it, understanding the weight of the match even. You guys really want to defend a guy who would do that to his fans? Have some self-respect, damn.
There's a level of respect that you have to show, when you enter someone else's turf. Also, whether or not you're a NesTea fan, he is one of the best players in the world, and when you face someone of that caliber, you bring your best as an acknowledgement of their skill. This was disrespectful. AND EVEN THOUGH, I don't entirely agree that a punishment this severe is necessary, if Gom sees FIT, then so be it. They have every right. NaNiwa shouldn't be babied for any reason whatsoever, and let this be an example and set a standard for all players and a level of professionalism.
TL;DR: NaNiwa represented the foreign community and messed up embarrassingly on someone else's turf, they have every right to punish him. It's not even what he did, but how he did it.
P.S And for many of you who are defending and crying for NaNiwa, at least hide your country or something for crying out loud. The amount of pro-nani bias is surprising, as usual.Not surprising most of the names say (Sweden). I find it even more hilarious any fan of Naniwa could dare call GOM unprofessional. Just laughable. Go on and hate more nationalities. This is really educated and adult way to deal with things. At least around 1945. GOM called nani unprofessional. Why shouldn't you then be allowed to put up such ridicouls accusation yourself about GOM if they do it?
Because Nani is unquestionably the LEAST professional "pro gamer" there is in Starcraft 2. People who support his childish behavior have no right to call GOM unprofessional. Complete double standards if they do.
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On December 14 2011 20:10 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:06 lrofd wrote:On December 14 2011 20:00 bluQ wrote:On December 14 2011 19:58 Sailincieri wrote:
Kids, this is obvious decision, you should understand why...
GSL is tournament for professional players, playing is profession, not some kind of fun.
In GSL they play for audience! Not for themselves. Do you think in normal JOB you can say to your boss that you have bad humor and dont wanna work? NO!
Naniwa, no matter what he think, should just sit in that booth and give fight with all his heart! To respect Korean audience, NesTea, GSL stuff, online audience etc.
And another guy putting up wrong analogies... First of all: I work for the money not my boss. Second if I feel my actualy output of my work doesnt have any impact on my earnings I will only do what is needed and nothing more. So ... lets see what Nani did ... right ... he did only what he needed to do ... GOM works for their money by providing audience entertainment. naniwa did not provide and GOM owes their boss (the audience) what they want to get their money. they cut naniwa for actual entertainment. you are secretly defending GOM with this statement According to TL it was the best game of the night. I tend to agree since the rest of the night was very bad. So then..... what?
And on a side-note considering the "respect"-stuff: GSL disrespecfted nani because he was forced to play an unneeded match.
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On December 14 2011 20:10 Gantritor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:04 HyperLethality wrote:
Honestly, I am shocked by the amount of people who are trying to "boycott" Gom, and to be even more frank, I find it ridiculously absurd and stupid of what people are saying to defend NaNiwa. First of all, if you don't want to watch the GSL anymore because of this, boohoo, get out then. Nobody cares, and if you condone NaNiwa's behavior then Gom doesn't need people like you anyway. Second of all, "NaNiwa didn't break any rules" is the most childish argument you could throw at this situation. When you become an "adult" and "mature", you start realizing that your behavior shouldn't be guided by "rules". There's absolutely no excuse for NaNiwa's disrespect. It's not just what he did, but how he did it, understanding the weight of the match even. You guys really want to defend a guy who would do that to his fans? Have some self-respect, damn.
There's a level of respect that you have to show, when you enter someone else's turf. Also, whether or not you're a NesTea fan, he is one of the best players in the world, and when you face someone of that caliber, you bring your best as an acknowledgement of their skill. This was disrespectful. AND EVEN THOUGH, I don't entirely agree that a punishment this severe is necessary, if Gom sees FIT, then so be it. They have every right. NaNiwa shouldn't be babied for any reason whatsoever, and let this be an example and set a standard for all players and a level of professionalism.
TL;DR: NaNiwa represented the foreign community and messed up embarrassingly on someone else's turf, they have every right to punish him. It's not even what he did, but how he did it.
P.S And for many of you who are defending and crying for NaNiwa, at least hide your country or something for crying out loud. I agree with you. If you follow any sport, you would know that even if the goals of a team are vanished, they still play, they do not cross their arms and behave like children. That's what Naniwa has done. And I am even more disappointed that people here defend Naniwa. At least his behaviour was excusable by the tension accumulated through the previous games.
BULLSHIT. they let all their best players rest. And Naniwa is the only player on his "team" so he let himself rest by ending the game in the quickest way possible.
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Hey guys, remember when Naniwa was banned from IEM (ESL Europe)? And German ESL? Are you going to claim "korean" bias on those two bans too? Naniwa just needs to learn how to behave as a pro, it is as simple as that.
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Naniwa was invited, he didn't earn his spot by climbing the GSL ranks. What is easily given can easily be taken away.
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On December 14 2011 20:12 Zalithian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:10 bluQ wrote:On December 14 2011 20:08 Zalithian wrote:On December 14 2011 20:04 HyperLethality wrote:
Honestly, I am shocked by the amount of people who are trying to "boycott" Gom, and to be even more frank, I find it ridiculously absurd and stupid of what people are saying to defend NaNiwa. First of all, if you don't want to watch the GSL anymore because of this, boohoo, get out then. Nobody cares, and if you condone NaNiwa's behavior then Gom doesn't need people like you anyway. Second of all, "NaNiwa didn't break any rules" is the most childish argument you could throw at this situation. When you become an "adult" and "mature", you start realizing that your behavior shouldn't be guided by "rules". There's absolutely no excuse for NaNiwa's disrespect. It's not just what he did, but how he did it, understanding the weight of the match even. You guys really want to defend a guy who would do that to his fans? Have some self-respect, damn.
There's a level of respect that you have to show, when you enter someone else's turf. Also, whether or not you're a NesTea fan, he is one of the best players in the world, and when you face someone of that caliber, you bring your best as an acknowledgement of their skill. This was disrespectful. AND EVEN THOUGH, I don't entirely agree that a punishment this severe is necessary, if Gom sees FIT, then so be it. They have every right. NaNiwa shouldn't be babied for any reason whatsoever, and let this be an example and set a standard for all players and a level of professionalism.
TL;DR: NaNiwa represented the foreign community and messed up embarrassingly on someone else's turf, they have every right to punish him. It's not even what he did, but how he did it.
P.S And for many of you who are defending and crying for NaNiwa, at least hide your country or something for crying out loud. The amount of pro-nani bias is surprising, as usual.Not surprising most of the names say (Sweden). I find it even more hilarious any fan of Naniwa could dare call GOM unprofessional. Just laughable. Go on and hate more nationalities. This is really educated and adult way to deal with things. At least around 1945. GOM called nani unprofessional. Why shouldn't you then be allowed to put up such ridicouls accusation yourself about GOM if they do it? Because Nani is unquestionably the LEAST professional "pro gamer" there is in Starcraft 2. People who support his childish behavior have right to call GOM unprofessional.
Bases of what? That he is one of the biggest and hardworking talents in western community?
And did you ever heard of players switching their names 5 times? is that professionalism?
What about ppl like phoenix? What about ppl like Major? They are more pro than nani because exactly what?
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On December 14 2011 20:12 Zalithian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:10 bluQ wrote:On December 14 2011 20:08 Zalithian wrote:On December 14 2011 20:04 HyperLethality wrote:
Honestly, I am shocked by the amount of people who are trying to "boycott" Gom, and to be even more frank, I find it ridiculously absurd and stupid of what people are saying to defend NaNiwa. First of all, if you don't want to watch the GSL anymore because of this, boohoo, get out then. Nobody cares, and if you condone NaNiwa's behavior then Gom doesn't need people like you anyway. Second of all, "NaNiwa didn't break any rules" is the most childish argument you could throw at this situation. When you become an "adult" and "mature", you start realizing that your behavior shouldn't be guided by "rules". There's absolutely no excuse for NaNiwa's disrespect. It's not just what he did, but how he did it, understanding the weight of the match even. You guys really want to defend a guy who would do that to his fans? Have some self-respect, damn.
There's a level of respect that you have to show, when you enter someone else's turf. Also, whether or not you're a NesTea fan, he is one of the best players in the world, and when you face someone of that caliber, you bring your best as an acknowledgement of their skill. This was disrespectful. AND EVEN THOUGH, I don't entirely agree that a punishment this severe is necessary, if Gom sees FIT, then so be it. They have every right. NaNiwa shouldn't be babied for any reason whatsoever, and let this be an example and set a standard for all players and a level of professionalism.
TL;DR: NaNiwa represented the foreign community and messed up embarrassingly on someone else's turf, they have every right to punish him. It's not even what he did, but how he did it.
P.S And for many of you who are defending and crying for NaNiwa, at least hide your country or something for crying out loud. The amount of pro-nani bias is surprising, as usual.Not surprising most of the names say (Sweden). I find it even more hilarious any fan of Naniwa could dare call GOM unprofessional. Just laughable. Go on and hate more nationalities. This is really educated and adult way to deal with things. At least around 1945. GOM called nani unprofessional. Why shouldn't you then be allowed to put up such ridicouls accusation yourself about GOM if they do it? Because Nani is unquestionably the LEAST professional "pro gamer" there is in Starcraft 2. People who support his childish behavior have right to call GOM unprofessional.
Nope. GOM is stupid to expect him to try in a meaningless match. It's unprofessional for GOM to ban him based on an absurd, idiotic and most importantly undocumented standards they have for their competitors.
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On December 14 2011 20:08 Zalithian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:04 HyperLethality wrote:
Honestly, I am shocked by the amount of people who are trying to "boycott" Gom, and to be even more frank, I find it ridiculously absurd and stupid of what people are saying to defend NaNiwa. First of all, if you don't want to watch the GSL anymore because of this, boohoo, get out then. Nobody cares, and if you condone NaNiwa's behavior then Gom doesn't need people like you anyway. Second of all, "NaNiwa didn't break any rules" is the most childish argument you could throw at this situation. When you become an "adult" and "mature", you start realizing that your behavior shouldn't be guided by "rules". There's absolutely no excuse for NaNiwa's disrespect. It's not just what he did, but how he did it, understanding the weight of the match even. You guys really want to defend a guy who would do that to his fans? Have some self-respect, damn.
There's a level of respect that you have to show, when you enter someone else's turf. Also, whether or not you're a NesTea fan, he is one of the best players in the world, and when you face someone of that caliber, you bring your best as an acknowledgement of their skill. This was disrespectful. AND EVEN THOUGH, I don't entirely agree that a punishment this severe is necessary, if Gom sees FIT, then so be it. They have every right. NaNiwa shouldn't be babied for any reason whatsoever, and let this be an example and set a standard for all players and a level of professionalism.
TL;DR: NaNiwa represented the foreign community and messed up embarrassingly on someone else's turf, they have every right to punish him. It's not even what he did, but how he did it.
P.S And for many of you who are defending and crying for NaNiwa, at least hide your country or something for crying out loud. The amount of pro-nani bias is surprising, as usual.Not surprising most of the names say (Sweden). I find it even more hilarious any fan of Naniwa could dare call GOM unprofessional. Just laughable.
Jesus then I bet you are an under cover south korean spreading "joy" to us all... Punishing players for something which don´t break any GSL rules is one of the most unprofessional things you can do, surely you realize this too?
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On December 14 2011 20:03 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:00 Ncutable wrote:On December 14 2011 19:54 bluQ wrote:On December 14 2011 19:53 Ncutable wrote:
To all these people comparing the situation to some professional sports. I think it´s most comparable to the Football WC. World´s best teams meet to represent their countries and decide who is the best team at the moment. But it´s not just that but also a big reason to celebrate the sport and have a great time, both for the fans and the players. So when in group stage there´s the third game to be played and 2 teams face who are already out (both lost first 2 games etc.) they give it their best nonetheless and usually also field their best players. Because it´s an honour to be one of the qualified teams and a pretty rare possibility for the fans to see their team compete against these other champions.
BlizzCup is a tourney that afaik GOM especially set up as a season closing event where fans get to see the best players from around the world showcasing there talents. That´s why Naniwa-Nestea game was played and in Up&Downs games like this aren´t. Not true. Just not true. Germany don't starts with their best team-setup when they advanced no matter the result of the game. Stop telling lies please. In case they don´t care about if they get 1st or 2nd, yes. But they do it because they either take care that their top players don´t get hurt/get some rest (the top players have a pretty packed season) or they want to try out how some players fit into the system. So, I think your argument is lacking in this regard. There was no argument. I was stateing facts. To give you an argument: Naniwa was resting his wrists so he could practice more in the evening and didn't want to show any gosu-strats of him. Enough of an arugment even if it is not true?
Well, your "facts" just aren´t a good analogy to the situation at hand. Because not fielding all of your your best players to prevent injury is not nearly the same as what Naniwa did. And you trying to argument (the wrist thing) didn´t work out to well imo. It´s pretty laughable as you yourself quoted.
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On December 14 2011 20:11 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:10 Snorkle wrote:On December 14 2011 20:00 bluQ wrote:On December 14 2011 19:58 Sailincieri wrote:
Kids, this is obvious decision, you should understand why...
GSL is tournament for professional players, playing is profession, not some kind of fun.
In GSL they play for audience! Not for themselves. Do you think in normal JOB you can say to your boss that you have bad humor and dont wanna work? NO!
Naniwa, no matter what he think, should just sit in that booth and give fight with all his heart! To respect Korean audience, NesTea, GSL stuff, online audience etc.
And another guy putting up wrong analogies... First of all: I work for the money not my boss. Second if I feel my actualy output of my work doesnt have any impact on my earnings I will only do what is needed and nothing more. So ... lets see what Nani did ... right ... he did only what he needed to do ... My business management book says I should terminate people with this attitude. I agree with it. Specifically "working only for money" and "I will only do what is needed and nothing more" Instead I should employee someone with less experience who is driven and invested in their work. Sen replacing Naniwa anyone? and your business will suffer from this decision if you hire someone who can't even do what the original person did.
Are you saying that Sen can't go 1-12 in the GSL? I think he can do better actually.
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On December 14 2011 20:11 ShineOnYou wrote:
GSL confirmed for shit tier tournament, just wow...
Dealing with childish behaviour with even worse childish behaviour, way to go..........
Seems like starcraft 2 content is the least important qualification for a good tournament according to your criteria.
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Although it's a bit harsh, I agree with what GOM did.
To add my own sports analogy.... In meaningless games (in every sport), teams may not put up their best effort, play their B-teamers, or whatever. Point is, they're still playing the game - for pride, for the fans, and of course because they're paid to do so.
In ANY sport if a team just blatantly throws the game, basically just straight-up saying "We don't want to play this game because we are not in the mood", there WILL be an outcry and there WILL be repercussions. There is no arguing that Naniwa simply threw that game.
Regardless of sports analogies, GOM decided that what he did was insulting to the viewers, therefore breaking the rule the OP mentioned, hence they are well within their rights to punish Naniwa.
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On December 14 2011 20:15 Ncutable wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:03 bluQ wrote:On December 14 2011 20:00 Ncutable wrote:On December 14 2011 19:54 bluQ wrote:On December 14 2011 19:53 Ncutable wrote:
To all these people comparing the situation to some professional sports. I think it´s most comparable to the Football WC. World´s best teams meet to represent their countries and decide who is the best team at the moment. But it´s not just that but also a big reason to celebrate the sport and have a great time, both for the fans and the players. So when in group stage there´s the third game to be played and 2 teams face who are already out (both lost first 2 games etc.) they give it their best nonetheless and usually also field their best players. Because it´s an honour to be one of the qualified teams and a pretty rare possibility for the fans to see their team compete against these other champions.
BlizzCup is a tourney that afaik GOM especially set up as a season closing event where fans get to see the best players from around the world showcasing there talents. That´s why Naniwa-Nestea game was played and in Up&Downs games like this aren´t. Not true. Just not true. Germany don't starts with their best team-setup when they advanced no matter the result of the game. Stop telling lies please. In case they don´t care about if they get 1st or 2nd, yes. But they do it because they either take care that their top players don´t get hurt/get some rest (the top players have a pretty packed season) or they want to try out how some players fit into the system. So, I think your argument is lacking in this regard. There was no argument. I was stateing facts. To give you an argument: Naniwa was resting his wrists so he could practice more in the evening and didn't want to show any gosu-strats of him. Enough of an arugment even if it is not true? Well, your "facts" just aren´t a good analogy to the situation at hand. Because not fielding all of your your best players to prevent injury is not nearly the same as what Naniwa did. And you trying to argument (the wrist thing) didn´t work out to well imo. It´s pretty laughable as you yourself quoted.
actually it is. A team needs rest... so they put in the subs who barely ever play. Naniwa needs rest... so he minimizes the work he has to do in the game, because that game is meaningless.
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EPT
