|
On December 14 2011 20:20 Wallstreet11 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:13 legaton wrote:
Hey guys, remember when Naniwa was banned from IEM (ESL Europe)? And German ESL? Are you going to claim "korean" bias on those two bans too? Naniwa just needs to learn how to behave as a pro, it is as simple as that. You are 1000% correct when you compare a stitutation when he broke the rules with a situation he didn´t break the rules and is way more important. I believe he got a lot of warnings before being kicked out also. Do you think he would have probe rushed if he would have gotten a warning about it and the consequenses of "cheezing", even thou without breaking any rules? How can you foresee punishment when there is no "law" against it? This was such a clear lynching by many Korean teams and ultimately GOM.
Ummm you just said he got kicked out of 2 tournaments AFTER being warned....and then you argue that this warning would have been different?
|
In every interview, Korean pro-gamers always say: "I want to provide good/entertaining matches". I think, it is an important thing to remember when you are a pro-gamer.
|
On December 14 2011 20:08 riboflavin wrote:Cause I'm feeling some ESPORTS passion, I want to chip in my views (Just in case this thread serves as an unofficial poll of sorts on the general reaction from the whole situation). - GOM is punishing a player who made a poor, but not 'offensive' decision to play a low percentage strategy. He didn't leave the game or forfeit before it started.
- GOM takes zero ownership in creating the issue, as their format created a meaningless game. Perhaps they figured out how to make a meaningless game matter....ban the player over a very poor 'strategy' choice.
- Mr Chae called Naniwa an 'amateur money hunter'. This is a disgraceful thing for him to say. It is totally unfair to label a player who plays at his level an amateur. It is also insanely hypocritical for a league who charges viewers and takes on sponsor money to take such a position. They too are in it for money. Take away your prize pool Mr Chae and see how many 'professional' players remain. Also, Mr Chae should show some restraint when speaking about the pro players who make his league successful. It's a discredit to hear him so easily disparage a player because they play the game to win -- and win money.
Aside from ranting a little on TL, I can only speak with my wallet on this matter. GOM has lost a long time pass purchaser/supporter for now. I love them for the long term, but right now I cannot bring myself to buy the yearly pass (or any pass for that matter).
I fully agree with your post and I will probably not buy any pass in the future. This decision is very upsetting to me. Will miss Tastosis.
|
On December 14 2011 18:38 CryingPoo wrote:
On Korean stream of GSL right now, Mr.Chae has announced that they made Code S seeds for a professional minded pro-gamer not for an amateur prize money hunter. It is official that Naniwa is given a punishment.
Also Mr.Chae mentioned that David Kim will come to the finals of Blizzcup.
T/N : When GOM announced the new format of GSL tour 2012. They planned out total 2 seeds to Code S and 2 seeds to Code A. Two seeds are sponsor seeds which are given to Idra and Sen. Two seeds are up/down seeds that will be given out to top performing non-Korea players. Therefore Idra and Sen did not suddenly get in that Naniwa's punishment is a separate issue.
T/N 2 : There is a rule about players' behaviours, whether Naniwa broke it or not is up to your discussion
Warning or disqualification
- 경기중에 과격한 행동으로 상대 게이머나 관중들에게 위협을 가할 때
- During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours
Quoting this because people still don't realized what Naniwa was banned for. Just because you aren't offended doesn't mean the Korean audience sees it the same way you do.
|
http://www.gomtv.net/forum/index.gom
I'd recommend posting feedback directly to the GOM forum if you disagree with their decision. It seems to be regularly watched by GOM employees.
|
On December 14 2011 20:03 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:59 Demonace34 wrote:On December 14 2011 19:53 Kiarip wrote:On December 14 2011 19:51 Demonace34 wrote:On December 14 2011 19:42 Kiarip wrote:On December 14 2011 19:41 Demonace34 wrote:On December 14 2011 19:35 Neelia wrote:On December 14 2011 19:14 Grettin wrote:On December 14 2011 19:12 PET wrote:
Ok. I'm curious.
What strategies are for GOM ... ok? Is it ok to do a 6 pool? Is it ok to take 4 drones and attack? We clearly see we can't probe rush ...
Soon we will see that the minimum game requirement is 30 minutes and we get 15 minutes to "evolve" like playing on Big Game Hunters 10 years ago.
Do you understand that you can't win with a strategy like probe rush in a competition like GSL. You might not win straight-up with 6pooling, but you can follow it up and win. That is the difference between these. Do you think you can win a GSL match with Nexus first in PvP? I'm quite certain that the chances to succeed with nexus first is about as high as the 7 probe rush. Does anyone think HerO should be punished? I don't think so. The difference is that a 7 probe rush is a failure 99.9% of the time, Nexus first against a player who doesn't scout can actually work and be a strategy. 12 drone rush actually can work on Steppes of War back in the day, the difference is that the player doing the drone rush is trying to win, the 7 probe rush is saying, "fuck this tournament, see ya later". probe rush against a player that doesn't micro can also win. Okay, so you are saying that if GSL is a joke competition(without the other person microing) you can win... So in this case, GSL says, Naniwa has disrespected the tournament and isn't fit to be a competitor because the tournament is suppose to be the best in the world. If you put out a product and people are paying to watch the best players in SCII, why would you let someone throw a game on purpose? It is one thing to just FF or make an excuse, it is another thing to worker rush and GG. Um... that's great. How about we play some games ZvP and PvP... I'm not a super high grandmaster GSL level player, but I bet you that I will win not only 100% of the games where you 7 probe rush me in ZvP, but I will also beat you in 100% of the games where you Nexus first in PvP... and yet somehow Hero didn't get punished for his Nexus first. 7 worker rush gets to your base, you have more workers, anyone silver or higher should win. PvP Nexus first, this is greedy as hell and can be interpreted as throwing a game, but it still makes the enemy have to scout and react to it. I think GOM could still probably make a case that this would be "throwing the game" and being "unsportsmanlike" and not worthy to be a progamer. What I'm trying to say is that intentionally throwing a game by worker rushing is different than making the opponent scout and shut down the other persons strategy ...be it nexus first, baneling bust, whatever. No baneling bust can win with metagame, because you have lings in time to try to hide your strategy. You can't HIDE nexus first... unless it's liek a hidden nexus but that's not what's in question. I'm sure that Naniwa can easily beat zergs in Silver league with a probe rush. Even with a worker disadvantage you can win by out micro'ing your opponent really badly. It wasn't gonna happen against Nestea, but I've seen grandmaster players lose 2 workers against 2 worker harass, and things like that, it's not unheard of, regardless it's no different htan nexus first.
Lets ask ourselves a couple questions:
1. Would a worker rush win against Nestea (or anyone in GSL)?
Never .00000000000000000000001% win chance. (and in cases where both players were worker rushing each other)
2. Does a worker rush degrade the spirit of competition?
Yes, if enough people worker rush and throw games eventually the competition will look like a joke. This is why many of the Korean players and the article from Korean website were so scathing. Just play the game out.
3. Was he punished harder because he was a foreigner/up against Nestea?
Could be, Nestea is a top player and Naniwa is relatively unknown to their community. Many players would die to have a chance to play against Nestea in a tournament setting (match being meaningful to tournament result or not). Throwing a game against him looks disrespectful as hell, even a half assed 4 gate or 6 gate would of looked better and provided GOM what they wanted.
4. Who is to blame? Naniwa or the tournament format?
Easy answer is both, tournament format allowed for there to be "pointless games" that shouldn't be played. Gom shouldn't of made them play or had the games able to be FF or optional. Naniwa on the other hand shouldn't of worker rushed, it looks bad for him and his team and it puts GOM in a tight spot. Either they punish the foreign player and piss off a bunch of the community or they act like it is okay to throw games because the tournament doesn't really matter at that stage. Both parties are at fault, Naniwa should of played a real game and I think the punishment from GOM is a bit over the top.
Either way, this is an emotional topic since Naniwa is one of the few foreign people in GSL and has a big fanbase and following behind him. I pretty much agree with what Geoff said on SotG last night and thought he should of been more of a trooper.
|
On December 14 2011 20:22 LeopoldStotch wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 18:38 CryingPoo wrote:
On Korean stream of GSL right now, Mr.Chae has announced that they made Code S seeds for a professional minded pro-gamer not for an amateur prize money hunter. It is official that Naniwa is given a punishment.
Also Mr.Chae mentioned that David Kim will come to the finals of Blizzcup.
T/N : When GOM announced the new format of GSL tour 2012. They planned out total 2 seeds to Code S and 2 seeds to Code A. Two seeds are sponsor seeds which are given to Idra and Sen. Two seeds are up/down seeds that will be given out to top performing non-Korea players. Therefore Idra and Sen did not suddenly get in that Naniwa's punishment is a separate issue.
T/N 2 : There is a rule about players' behaviours, whether Naniwa broke it or not is up to your discussion
Warning or disqualification
- 경기중에 과격한 행동으로 상대 게이머나 관중들에게 위협을 가할 때
- During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours
Quoting this because people still don't realized what Naniwa was banned for. Just because you aren't offended doesn't mean the Korean audience sees it the same way you do.
I'm deeply offended by every terran who drops mules when they win. They should all be banned.
|
On December 14 2011 20:22 LeopoldStotch wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 18:38 CryingPoo wrote:
On Korean stream of GSL right now, Mr.Chae has announced that they made Code S seeds for a professional minded pro-gamer not for an amateur prize money hunter. It is official that Naniwa is given a punishment.
Also Mr.Chae mentioned that David Kim will come to the finals of Blizzcup.
T/N : When GOM announced the new format of GSL tour 2012. They planned out total 2 seeds to Code S and 2 seeds to Code A. Two seeds are sponsor seeds which are given to Idra and Sen. Two seeds are up/down seeds that will be given out to top performing non-Korea players. Therefore Idra and Sen did not suddenly get in that Naniwa's punishment is a separate issue.
T/N 2 : There is a rule about players' behaviours, whether Naniwa broke it or not is up to your discussion
Warning or disqualification
- 경기중에 과격한 행동으로 상대 게이머나 관중들에게 위협을 가할 때
- During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours
Quoting this because people still don't realized what Naniwa was banned for. Just because you aren't offended doesn't mean the Korean audience sees it the same way you do. Someone posted on a previous page saying it actually means threaten not offend, so that rule should be without relevance.
|
On December 14 2011 20:19 Focuspants wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:11 Kiarip wrote:On December 14 2011 20:10 Snorkle wrote:On December 14 2011 20:00 bluQ wrote:On December 14 2011 19:58 Sailincieri wrote:
Kids, this is obvious decision, you should understand why...
GSL is tournament for professional players, playing is profession, not some kind of fun.
In GSL they play for audience! Not for themselves. Do you think in normal JOB you can say to your boss that you have bad humor and dont wanna work? NO!
Naniwa, no matter what he think, should just sit in that booth and give fight with all his heart! To respect Korean audience, NesTea, GSL stuff, online audience etc.
And another guy putting up wrong analogies... First of all: I work for the money not my boss. Second if I feel my actualy output of my work doesnt have any impact on my earnings I will only do what is needed and nothing more. So ... lets see what Nani did ... right ... he did only what he needed to do ... My business management book says I should terminate people with this attitude. I agree with it. Specifically "working only for money" and "I will only do what is needed and nothing more" Instead I should employee someone with less experience who is driven and invested in their work. Sen replacing Naniwa anyone? and your business will suffer from this decision if you hire someone who can't even do what the original person did. Rofl, your business doesnt suffer at all. Having someone that does the bare minimum, and has no respect for their craft, does not produce more results than having someone that has a sense of pride, responsibility, and a drive to be the best they can be.
That's just stupid. We live in the world of automation... When someone's job gets replaced with a heartless mindless robot, the productivity increases not decreases. The "love for one's craft" doesn't have an absolute correlation with competence.
|
I swear to fucking god Team Liquid has been taken over by 16 year old girls. Since when did being a completely selfish and disrespectful become the cool trend on here?
|
On December 14 2011 20:22 Falcor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:20 Wallstreet11 wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 legaton wrote:
Hey guys, remember when Naniwa was banned from IEM (ESL Europe)? And German ESL? Are you going to claim "korean" bias on those two bans too? Naniwa just needs to learn how to behave as a pro, it is as simple as that. You are 1000% correct when you compare a stitutation when he broke the rules with a situation he didn´t break the rules and is way more important. I believe he got a lot of warnings before being kicked out also. Do you think he would have probe rushed if he would have gotten a warning about it and the consequenses of "cheezing", even thou without breaking any rules? How can you foresee punishment when there is no "law" against it? This was such a clear lynching by many Korean teams and ultimately GOM. Ummm you just said he got kicked out of 2 tournaments AFTER being warned....and then you argue that this warning would have been different?
Ummm he clearly didn´t care much for that tournament but do you think he would jeopardize his dream spot in GSL if he knew what the punishment is for probe rushing in a meaningless game....?
|
On December 14 2011 20:08 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:06 lrofd wrote:On December 14 2011 20:00 bluQ wrote:On December 14 2011 19:58 Sailincieri wrote:
Kids, this is obvious decision, you should understand why...
GSL is tournament for professional players, playing is profession, not some kind of fun.
In GSL they play for audience! Not for themselves. Do you think in normal JOB you can say to your boss that you have bad humor and dont wanna work? NO!
Naniwa, no matter what he think, should just sit in that booth and give fight with all his heart! To respect Korean audience, NesTea, GSL stuff, online audience etc.
And another guy putting up wrong analogies... First of all: I work for the money not my boss. Second if I feel my actualy output of my work doesnt have any impact on my earnings I will only do what is needed and nothing more. So ... lets see what Nani did ... right ... he did only what he needed to do ... GOM works for their money by providing audience entertainment. naniwa did not provide and GOM owes their boss (the audience) what they want to get their money. they cut naniwa for actual entertainment. you are secretly defending GOM with this statement Actually. Naniwa's job is to try to win the competition. It's GOM's job to provide a competition that forces Naniwa to play meaningful games. They failed to do so for his last game because it was meaningless to the result of the competition so he didn't try. No one goes up in arms in other sports when a team doesn't play any of their best players because they're letting them rest for the playoffs... the decision is dogmatic and hare-brained.
GOM's format wasn't flawed. Naniwa's play was. That's why he went 0-3 and was placed in the situation where winning the game made no difference on his advancement in the event. That's like saying NFL format is flawed because the lions went 0-10 and their final 6 regular season games didn't matter so they should all run on the field and twirl their helmets around on their hands instead of playing the game.
|
I looked down on what Naniwa did but given the circumstances I passed it off. Guess you could say I didn't really mind. But this is just stupid by GOM. He earned that spot and now he gets banned? The thing that makes me sick is "amateur prize money hunter". Love or hate Naniwa no one can question his dedication to being the best. The guy looks sick to his stomach when he comes second and wins $10,000. He plays to win, but that game meant nothing. Glad I didn't buy a yearly ticket!
|
On December 14 2011 20:24 Zalithian wrote:
I swear to fucking god Team Liquid has been taken over by 16 year old girls. Since when did being a completely selfish and disrespectful become the cool trend on here?
I like how you act as if you just got into this thread when you've been posting for a while. No one thinks that being selfish and disrespectful is cool. quit being a tool.
|
On December 14 2011 20:20 Wallstreet11 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:13 legaton wrote:
Hey guys, remember when Naniwa was banned from IEM (ESL Europe)? And German ESL? Are you going to claim "korean" bias on those two bans too? Naniwa just needs to learn how to behave as a pro, it is as simple as that. You are 1000% correct when you compare a stitutation when he broke the rules with a situation he didn´t break the rules and is way more important. I believe he got a lot of warnings before being kicked out also. Do you think he would have probe rushed if he would have gotten a warning about it and the consequenses of "cheezing", even thou without breaking any rules? How can you foresee punishment when there is no "law" against it? This was such a clear lynching by many Korean teams and ultimately GOM.
Rofl this is so ridiculous. I Korean would have almost certainly been punished even harder. This isnt a lynching. He spat on their tournament, and he got burned for it. He deserves it. Theres no lynching. Your argument is insanely immature and naive. Is the tournament supposed to outline everypossible thing you could do during the tournament to tell you if its allowed or not? You need to realize that integrity is important, you shouldnt need people telling you that.
To say there needs to be a written rule that probe rushes are not allowed for them to have the "right" to punsih him is wrong. Its their tournament, he misrepresented it, they have full right to kick him out. If he would have gotten out of the booth, and started giving the camera the finger, and been kicked out for that, could you really say that he cant be kicked out because there isnt a written rule that youre not allowed to leave your booth and give the camera the finger? Its a silly argument. There are basic standards that need to be met in professional sports, and if you dont meet them, you get punished.
|
On December 14 2011 20:10 decaf wrote:
The reason they have given to ban him is applicable to so many other things that have happened and still happen in every game. I do think naniwa deserves some kind of punishment (a warning for instance), but banning him for doing a strategy that cannot win blows this out of proportion. The game didn't even matter and it's the format to blame if a player decides to rather not play a game out. Also the personal attack against naniwa is completely unprofessional and I think gom should be sued for it.
And to all people saying "that's just korean culture": that's bullshit. The GSL is the global starcraft II league and not the korean sc2 league. Gom is trying to be internation so they have to respond to these kind of things in a different way - no matter how you would treat it in korea. If it was korean culture to sentence people forfeiting games with death penalty, should naniwa be killed now? No.
Well,since Savior and match-making scandal fix in BW.Koreans had strictly ensure such behaviour like throwing games eventhough it is a meaningless game are not allowed.
GSL is a global starcraft2 league?In my opinion, it was never a international starcraft league but korean sc2 league.
They may name it global but dun think too much of it.Plus,throwing a game eventhough it is meaningless in a Korean televised match in Korean soil is pretty dumb.Naniwa got himself to blame since he let emotion took over and made the wrong choice.
GOM can do whatever the hell they want since its their tournament but i think their action is a bit too extreme.
Now,you guys witness the how scary Korean communities can be.
|
On December 14 2011 20:27 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:24 Zalithian wrote:
I swear to fucking god Team Liquid has been taken over by 16 year old girls. Since when did being a completely selfish and disrespectful become the cool trend on here? I like how you act as if you just got into this thread when you've been posting for a while. No one thinks that being selfish and disrespectful is cool. quit being a tool.
Seriously? Then why does Nani have so many followers on here? Apparently lots of people love his lack of respect for everyone other than himself. So much so they would boycott the most competitive SC2 tournament in the world.
|
On December 14 2011 20:12 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:10 Gantritor wrote:On December 14 2011 20:04 HyperLethality wrote:
Honestly, I am shocked by the amount of people who are trying to "boycott" Gom, and to be even more frank, I find it ridiculously absurd and stupid of what people are saying to defend NaNiwa. First of all, if you don't want to watch the GSL anymore because of this, boohoo, get out then. Nobody cares, and if you condone NaNiwa's behavior then Gom doesn't need people like you anyway. Second of all, "NaNiwa didn't break any rules" is the most childish argument you could throw at this situation. When you become an "adult" and "mature", you start realizing that your behavior shouldn't be guided by "rules". There's absolutely no excuse for NaNiwa's disrespect. It's not just what he did, but how he did it, understanding the weight of the match even. You guys really want to defend a guy who would do that to his fans? Have some self-respect, damn.
There's a level of respect that you have to show, when you enter someone else's turf. Also, whether or not you're a NesTea fan, he is one of the best players in the world, and when you face someone of that caliber, you bring your best as an acknowledgement of their skill. This was disrespectful. AND EVEN THOUGH, I don't entirely agree that a punishment this severe is necessary, if Gom sees FIT, then so be it. They have every right. NaNiwa shouldn't be babied for any reason whatsoever, and let this be an example and set a standard for all players and a level of professionalism.
TL;DR: NaNiwa represented the foreign community and messed up embarrassingly on someone else's turf, they have every right to punish him. It's not even what he did, but how he did it.
P.S And for many of you who are defending and crying for NaNiwa, at least hide your country or something for crying out loud. I agree with you. If you follow any sport, you would know that even if the goals of a team are vanished, they still play, they do not cross their arms and behave like children. That's what Naniwa has done. And I am even more disappointed that people here defend Naniwa. At least his behaviour was excusable by the tension accumulated through the previous games. BULLSHIT. they let all their best players rest. And Naniwa is the only player on his "team" so he let himself rest by ending the game in the quickest way possible.
There is a huge difference in resting / playing poorly or totally refusing to play. Naniwa refused to play, and he got rightfully punished. Deal with it.
|
On December 14 2011 20:24 Zalithian wrote:
I swear to fucking god Team Liquid has been taken over by 16 year old girls. Since when did being a completely selfish and disrespectful become the cool trend on here? Since when did (IMO) giving out excessively harsh punishments, ruining months of work and dedication for a player, on the grounds of he not properly entertaining them in their pointless match become ok? Especially considering he is not an entertainer and they are not paying him to be one, he is a competitor, providing entertainment by proxy of competing.
|
What would happen in any other sport? How many times do you have games that have no real impact on your advancement in the group? This happens all the time, even in the qualifiers of a world cup (football). While teams in these situations may not play their best at least they play, could you imagine what e.g. FIFA would do, if one team would just sit on the grass or score own goals or just put all players in offense including the goal keeper, "just because there is no value to gain?"
There are viewers, people are paying to see the matches, it doesn't matter if there is nothing to win, the spectators make the sport not the other way around, without spectators naniwa would have nothing to win anyways, so he basically just gave the "finger" to all his spectators and his opponent. It's unprofessional, as for the punishment maybe it's too hard I'm not sure, but it should be a harsh punishment, imo at least.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
