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On December 14 2011 20:29 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:27 Focuspants wrote:On December 14 2011 20:20 Wallstreet11 wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 legaton wrote:
Hey guys, remember when Naniwa was banned from IEM (ESL Europe)? And German ESL? Are you going to claim "korean" bias on those two bans too? Naniwa just needs to learn how to behave as a pro, it is as simple as that. You are 1000% correct when you compare a stitutation when he broke the rules with a situation he didn´t break the rules and is way more important. I believe he got a lot of warnings before being kicked out also. Do you think he would have probe rushed if he would have gotten a warning about it and the consequenses of "cheezing", even thou without breaking any rules? How can you foresee punishment when there is no "law" against it? This was such a clear lynching by many Korean teams and ultimately GOM. Rofl this is so ridiculous. I Korean would have almost certainly been punished even harder. This isnt a lynching. He spat on their tournament, and he got burned for it. He deserves it. Theres no lynching. Your argument is insanely immature and naive. Is the tournament supposed to outline everypossible thing you could do during the tournament to tell you if its allowed or not? You need to realize that integrity is important, you shouldnt need people telling you that. He didn't spit on their tournament. He realized that the game was pointless, and didn't play it out. Show nested quote +
To say there needs to be a written rule that probe rushes are not allowed for them to have the "right" to punsih him is wrong. Its their tournament, he misrepresented it, they have full right to kick him out. If he would have gotten out of the booth, and started giving the camera the finger, and been kicked out for that, could you really say that he cant be kicked out because there isnt a written rule that youre not allowed to leave your booth and give the camera the finger? Its a silly argument. There are basic standards that need to be met in professional sports, and if you dont meet them, you get punished.
giving the finger can easily be interpreted as offensive to just about anyone. There's no RULE that says you MUST try your best to win. It is ASSUMED because you need to win in order to win the whole tournament. But if you have no chance to win the whole tournament, then you no longer have an incentive to play well, at which point who cares what you do?
WHO CARES?!?!?!? I DO! I paid money to see games. WE pay for Naniwa to play Sc2. We owe him nothing, and he owes us EVERYTHING. Its not meaningless. The word meaningless is a sham. Theres is always pride, and your responsibility to your fans. In EVERY sport, this is frowned upon. The fact that people cant see that WE are the important ones, and playing for the fans that pay for your ass to do what you do is MEANINGFUL, is completely infuriating. The tournament structure has 0 blame for this. Every sporting event/league has people that lose to the point of no longer being able to advance, and those people/teams are expeted to play out their games/season, because FANS PAY FOR YOUR EXISTENCE.
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honestly I am against this disqualification, as mentioned before, had naniwa just simple 4 gated then he wouldnt have had suffered this penalty. However both what naniwa did and simply 4 gating would have represented the same thing. If the match does not have anything on the line I dont see how it is offending anyone else?
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how would you feel if someone comes to your poker game, starts throwing hands and revealing hands and just being disrespecful.
even though he didn't break any rules, he did not follow the etiquette of the game, would you want him back? no
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On December 14 2011 20:19 ShineOnYou wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:13 LaughingTrees wrote:
Naniwa was invited, he didn't earn his spot by climbing the GSL ranks. What is easily given can easily be taken away. what the fuck are you talking about, he earned his code S spot by getting second place at MLG providence ...
Did every Korean player who was in Code A get to play in that MLG Providence? Its special treatment for being a foreigner when there are much more deserving players in Korea. They climbed the ranks in Korea, they should get the spot for the GSL which is in their country. Naniwa gots this seeding before and has been crushed in Code S and Code A matches repeatedly.
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On December 14 2011 20:33 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:24 Zalithian wrote:
I swear to fucking god Team Liquid has been taken over by 16 year old girls. Since when did being a completely selfish and disrespectful become the cool trend on here? Don't judge me based on my age or gender!! You just don't understand how dark Naniwa is! He can't help being what he is, with such a unquenchable thirst for blood. Now I have to go and watch twilight 4 to calm down at it is all you fault!!! 
This was a good post.
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yes amateur prize money hunter. i saw naniwa in some video saying he's in it for the money only.
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On December 14 2011 20:35 Zalithian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:33 Kiarip wrote:On December 14 2011 20:31 Zalithian wrote:On December 14 2011 20:28 Clearout wrote:On December 14 2011 20:24 Zalithian wrote:
I swear to fucking god Team Liquid has been taken over by 16 year old girls. Since when did being a completely selfish and disrespectful become the cool trend on here? Since when did (IMO) giving out excessively harsh punishments, ruining months of work and dedication for a player, on the grounds of he not properly entertaining them in their pointless match become ok? Especially considering he is not an entertainer and they are not paying him to be one, he is a competitor, providing entertainment by proxy of competing. Excessively harsh? He got his seed taken away that he didn't even earn through the traditional route. He disrespected the organizers of GOM. GOM runs GSL. Shocking they wouldn't want him in their tournament next season. Guy gets paid to play Starcraft and he won't even play a televised game vs Nestea in a tournament he agreed to (including prize money?) So much white knighting on here. He did play a game. If you're playing a game for a tournament there's an implication there that this game is meaningful to your placement in this tournament. That game wasn't so he didn't try in it. There's no rule that says "you must try to win at all times" it is up to the scheduling and the tournament format to guarantee that this is the case. Do you have no idea how many games are played that are meaningless in almost all sports? I guess everyone who starts off 0-2 in MLG should worker rush all their games, I mean if the can't win, why bother?
If a naniwa was down in a series he would have tried, because he could still win.
And in sports teams play their worst players during meaningless games, they still come to play the game, but they don't try, they keep all the best players on the bench.
naniwa also played the game. He didn't just leave after he lost the third game, knowing there's no chance he will advance, I'm sure THAT would be a breach of some sort of contract, and it would be incredibly unprofessional, he went into the booth to play his game, and he didn't try, because he was already tired, and it was an inconsequential game. Same thing as in Sports, and NO ONE makes a big deal over it in Sports.
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On December 14 2011 20:36 Doraemon wrote:
how would you feel is someone comes to your poker game, starts throwing hands and revealing hands and just being disrespecful.
even though he didn't break any rules, he did not follow the etiquette of the game, would you want him back? no
Actually......thats a very good analogy....
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9071 Posts
so probe rushing gets into the list of strategies that get you banned from code S, I just wander what was going to happen if by some universal chance Nani won that game
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On December 14 2011 20:36 LaughingTrees wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:19 ShineOnYou wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 LaughingTrees wrote:
Naniwa was invited, he didn't earn his spot by climbing the GSL ranks. What is easily given can easily be taken away. what the fuck are you talking about, he earned his code S spot by getting second place at MLG providence ... Did every Korean player who was in Code A get to play in that MLG Providence? Its special treatment for being a foreigner when there are much more deserving players in Korea. They climbed the ranks in Korea, they should get the spot for the GSL which is in their country. Naniwa gots this seeding before and has been crushed in Code S and Code A matches repeatedly.
What about the MLG invites into pool play straight out of GSL? you're right all koreans should be forced to go through the open bracket instead.
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On December 14 2011 20:33 Wallstreet11 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:27 Focuspants wrote:On December 14 2011 20:20 Wallstreet11 wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 legaton wrote:
Hey guys, remember when Naniwa was banned from IEM (ESL Europe)? And German ESL? Are you going to claim "korean" bias on those two bans too? Naniwa just needs to learn how to behave as a pro, it is as simple as that. You are 1000% correct when you compare a stitutation when he broke the rules with a situation he didn´t break the rules and is way more important. I believe he got a lot of warnings before being kicked out also. Do you think he would have probe rushed if he would have gotten a warning about it and the consequenses of "cheezing", even thou without breaking any rules? How can you foresee punishment when there is no "law" against it? This was such a clear lynching by many Korean teams and ultimately GOM. Rofl this is so ridiculous. I Korean would have almost certainly been punished even harder. This isnt a lynching. He spat on their tournament, and he got burned for it. He deserves it. Theres no lynching. Your argument is insanely immature and naive. Is the tournament supposed to outline everypossible thing you could do during the tournament to tell you if its allowed or not? You need to realize that integrity is important, you shouldnt need people telling you that. To say there needs to be a written rule that probe rushes are not allowed for them to have the "right" to punsih him is wrong. Its their tournament, he misrepresented it, they have full right to kick him out. If he would have gotten out of the booth, and started giving the camera the finger, and been kicked out for that, could you really say that he cant be kicked out because there isnt a written rule that youre not allowed to leave your booth and give the camera the finger? Its a silly argument. There are basic standards that need to be met in professional sports, and if you dont meet them, you get punished. It must be hard to live up to standards you don´t even have in writing. Do you call training night and day and playing your heart out just to lose on the finnishing line and then just when you are crushed about the fact that you didn´t aadvance you do a sh.it cheeze spitting on the tournament? Have you even a clue about how much this tournament meant for him? This move is like kicking someone who is lying down. In no way shape or form should the punishment be this hard when it doesn´t give or take away any sort of advantage to another player! This is ridiculously harsh. But hey it´s easy for you to judge him and wanting him out since I guess you can´t put yourself in his shoes. Wuld you cry like this if MVP, Nestea or MC did the exact same thing?
YES I WOULD. I actually liked Naniwa. If any of those players did that, I would have been just as upset. Where in my posts have I said I am a Naniwa hater. I no longer like him, because regardless of how hard he works, he doesnt have the professionalism to realize, that WE matter. The prize money isnt unrelated to his fans. If we didnt watch, that prize money wouldnt exist, and hed have no job. He doesnt care about the time and money we pour into his craft, so i dont care to watch him anymore.
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On December 14 2011 20:30 Snorkle wrote:
The moral of the story is: don't fucking bite the hand that is feeding you. And maybe, just maybe try to understand the culture in which you are working in order to avoid offending everyone you come in contact with.
Understand the Korean culture? Naniwa doesn't get any culture:
In Europe:
- Banned from German ESL for not respecting the rules
- Banned from european ESO/IEM for the same thing
- General Bad behavior (TLO didn't accept Naniwa at the gaming house he had with Morrow because of his behavior).
United Stated:
- Bad manners at the finals of TSL3
- Insulting the MLG tournament on stage and in front of thousands of viewers.
- Watching replays before a regame :/
Korea:
- Going 1-11 in televised matches, and while invited, throw a game as it meant shit to you..;
Naniwa just needs to grow up, and as long as he doesn't change, he's going to get sanctioned for it.
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What a joke move by GOMTV, lost all my respect.
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On December 14 2011 20:37 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:35 Zalithian wrote:On December 14 2011 20:33 Kiarip wrote:On December 14 2011 20:31 Zalithian wrote:On December 14 2011 20:28 Clearout wrote:On December 14 2011 20:24 Zalithian wrote:
I swear to fucking god Team Liquid has been taken over by 16 year old girls. Since when did being a completely selfish and disrespectful become the cool trend on here? Since when did (IMO) giving out excessively harsh punishments, ruining months of work and dedication for a player, on the grounds of he not properly entertaining them in their pointless match become ok? Especially considering he is not an entertainer and they are not paying him to be one, he is a competitor, providing entertainment by proxy of competing. Excessively harsh? He got his seed taken away that he didn't even earn through the traditional route. He disrespected the organizers of GOM. GOM runs GSL. Shocking they wouldn't want him in their tournament next season. Guy gets paid to play Starcraft and he won't even play a televised game vs Nestea in a tournament he agreed to (including prize money?) So much white knighting on here. He did play a game. If you're playing a game for a tournament there's an implication there that this game is meaningful to your placement in this tournament. That game wasn't so he didn't try in it. There's no rule that says "you must try to win at all times" it is up to the scheduling and the tournament format to guarantee that this is the case. Do you have no idea how many games are played that are meaningless in almost all sports? I guess everyone who starts off 0-2 in MLG should worker rush all their games, I mean if the can't win, why bother? If a naniwa was down in a series he would have tried, because he could still win. And in sports teams play their worst players during meaningless games, they still come to play the game, but they don't try, they keep all the best players on the bench. naniwa also played the game. He didn't just leave after he lost the third game, knowing there's no chance he will advance, I'm sure THAT would be a breach of some sort of contract, and it would be incredibly unprofessional, he went into the booth to play his game, and he didn't try, because he was already tired, and it was an inconsequential game. Same thing as in Sports, and NO ONE makes a big deal over it in Sports.
I'm pretty sure Naniwa didn't even micro his probes. He had 0 intention of winning that game. Sports players bench their players usually because injury is a concern. Using sports is not an apples to apples comparison due to the physical nature. If Naniwa had a legit chance of tearing his MCL while playing Nestea your comparison might be valid.
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On December 14 2011 20:36 LaughingTrees wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:19 ShineOnYou wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 LaughingTrees wrote:
Naniwa was invited, he didn't earn his spot by climbing the GSL ranks. What is easily given can easily be taken away. what the fuck are you talking about, he earned his code S spot by getting second place at MLG providence ... Did every Korean player who was in Code A get to play in that MLG Providence? Its special treatment for being a foreigner when there are much more deserving players in Korea. They climbed the ranks in Korea, they should get the spot for the GSL which is in their country. Naniwa gots this seeding before and has been crushed in Code S and Code A matches repeatedly.
Well a whole lotta Koreans from both Code A and Code S played at Providence (15 or 16 IIRC?). NaNiWa beat quite a few players to get second place. He performed well, and deserved that spot.
Overly excessive punishment for a player who deserved it more than Sen or to a lesser extent, IdrA.
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what the fuck gom
seriously two wrongs do NOT make a right. The rule seems completely arbitrary. How do you even begin to define "disrepectful"? seems completely arbitrary.
I'm asking for money back now for the next season - what a joke.
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On December 14 2011 20:36 Focuspants wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:29 Kiarip wrote:On December 14 2011 20:27 Focuspants wrote:On December 14 2011 20:20 Wallstreet11 wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 legaton wrote:
Hey guys, remember when Naniwa was banned from IEM (ESL Europe)? And German ESL? Are you going to claim "korean" bias on those two bans too? Naniwa just needs to learn how to behave as a pro, it is as simple as that. You are 1000% correct when you compare a stitutation when he broke the rules with a situation he didn´t break the rules and is way more important. I believe he got a lot of warnings before being kicked out also. Do you think he would have probe rushed if he would have gotten a warning about it and the consequenses of "cheezing", even thou without breaking any rules? How can you foresee punishment when there is no "law" against it? This was such a clear lynching by many Korean teams and ultimately GOM. Rofl this is so ridiculous. I Korean would have almost certainly been punished even harder. This isnt a lynching. He spat on their tournament, and he got burned for it. He deserves it. Theres no lynching. Your argument is insanely immature and naive. Is the tournament supposed to outline everypossible thing you could do during the tournament to tell you if its allowed or not? You need to realize that integrity is important, you shouldnt need people telling you that. He didn't spit on their tournament. He realized that the game was pointless, and didn't play it out.
To say there needs to be a written rule that probe rushes are not allowed for them to have the "right" to punsih him is wrong. Its their tournament, he misrepresented it, they have full right to kick him out. If he would have gotten out of the booth, and started giving the camera the finger, and been kicked out for that, could you really say that he cant be kicked out because there isnt a written rule that youre not allowed to leave your booth and give the camera the finger? Its a silly argument. There are basic standards that need to be met in professional sports, and if you dont meet them, you get punished.
giving the finger can easily be interpreted as offensive to just about anyone. There's no RULE that says you MUST try your best to win. It is ASSUMED because you need to win in order to win the whole tournament. But if you have no chance to win the whole tournament, then you no longer have an incentive to play well, at which point who cares what you do? WHO CARES?!?!?!? I DO! I paid money to see games. WE pay for Naniwa to play Sc2. We owe him nothing, and he owes us EVERYTHING. Its not meaningless. The word meaningless is a sham. Theres is always pride, and your responsibility to your fans. In EVERY sport, this is frowned upon. The fact that people cant see that WE are the important ones, and playing for the fans that pay for your ass to do what you do is MEANINGFUL, is completely infuriating. The tournament structure has 0 blame for this. Every sporting event/league has people that lose to the point of no longer being able to advance, and those people/teams are expeted to play out their games/season, because FANS PAY FOR YOUR EXISTENCE.
His responsibility to the fans is to try to win the tournament. He was basically out of the tournament. The only reason he has fans is because his drive to win has gotten him as far as it did.
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I really hate the wording on that. You don't kick someone out for a silly reason then insult him on the way out 
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I think the people that go to play sc2 in GSL or other big tournaments are wrongly labelled players. They are actually actors/entertainers payed to entertain us and promote their sponsors and tournament sponsors. You can call player somebody like Djwheat who grabs a bottle and a couple friends and has a blast playing some 3v3's.
What Naniwa did was not drop a game (which he could in a more elegant fashion committing to a 4 gate) but he pretty much said: Yo bitches, there is nothing in this FOR ME so i don't give a fuck about my team who was hyping the game on twitter, I don't give a fuck about people that payed for GSL, I don't care that there are people who bothered to prepare this event or sound/video for this exact game. You can all go fuck yourselfs because your troublesome is meaningless to me. It's all about ME ME ME.
What Naniwa did is underperformance even for the most amateur of the actors. He just doesn't belong in a tournament of that caliber because regardless of his skill in sc2 he fails at entertaining.
I was expecting GOM to deny the 900$ which he gets for being invited in the tournament but i guess they didn't have a rule for that just for warning/disqualify so disqualifying from code S it's a fair punishment imo. There is no way they could let this go with a warning, and i'm happy Mr Chae took this decision. If you don't give a fuck about our tournament and the audience .. we don't give a fuck about you.
For future i agree tho the games that don't change anything in a tournament should be able to skip if a player or referee asks to.
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EPT
