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On December 14 2011 19:57 msl wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:55 Xax wrote:On December 14 2011 19:47 Hagg wrote:
To quote another poster:
Gom should have been professional about being professional.
Naniwa probably deserved some kind of punishment, but GOM handled it more like the average butthurt toddler would than an international league. The justification given (the rule) is WAY too vague, and the personal attack upon Naniwa was dispicable. The funny thing is that the community is bashing Gom for something someone vaguely translated on twitter. Maybe wait for a proper press release with non-lost-in-translation-wording. Well, if the press release doesn't say "Sorry, our mistake, we reverse the decision regarding naniwa" I don't see how phrasing your abuse of power and double standards changes anything.
you keep using those words, but I don't think you understand what they mean..
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Great news! I'm really happy and satisfied with their decision. Will definetly buy yearly subscription.
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On December 14 2011 19:58 Sailincieri wrote:
Kids, this is obvious decision, you should understand why...
GSL is tournament for professional players, playing is profession, not some kind of fun.
In GSL they play for audience! Not for themselves. Do you think in normal JOB you can say to your boss that you have bad humor and dont wanna work? NO!
Naniwa, no matter what he think, should just sit in that booth and give fight with all his heart! To respect Korean audience, NesTea, GSL stuff, online audience etc.
And another guy putting up wrong analogies...
First of all: I work for the money not my boss. Second if I feel my actualy output of my work doesnt have any impact on my earnings I will only do what is needed and nothing more.
So ... lets see what Nani did ... right ... he did only what he needed to do ...
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On December 14 2011 19:56 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:55 Focuspants wrote:On December 14 2011 19:32 hahaimhenry wrote:On December 14 2011 19:30 Focuspants wrote:
Im happy with this decision. Anyone in any other sport would have been punished for this action. There are tons of players that would kill someone to get a chance to play a game on that grand of a stage vs. a player like Nestea. Im a fan of Hero, and it was breaking my heart watching him not play his best. But he still tried. You could see how upset he was, but he handled it like a pro, took his lumps, and still PLAYED the game, because thats what he signed up for. We pay money to watch the tournament, not to watch someone not give a shit. If this happened at a pro sporting event, fans would be outraged. The fact that people support his behaviour is completely mind boggling.
I think the punishment is very fit for what he did. You're from Canada, I bet you watch hockey like I do. When has a team in the NHL gotten punished for not playing their best players? If you watch basketball, teams seeded in the playoffs start playing their B-teamers near the end of the season 'cause it doesn't matter anymore. The NBA doesn't punish them for this. Equating what he did to playing B teamers is a terrible analogy. Those B teamers have something to prove. They push hard, try to win, play for pride, play for the fans. You do realize we essentially allow them to do what they do. if nobody watched, or paid money, their job wouldnt exist. Probe rushing would be more like a hockey team getting the puck at the opening faceoff, putting it in their own net, and skating off the ice, then saying the game didnt mean anything who cares. Any PROFESSIONAL athlete should realize, that even if they dont give a shit, they owe it to the fans, sponsors, their team, and the sport, to play the game. If I went to a Leafs game (I live in Toronto) and somethign like this happened, i would be outraged, as would the whole city, as would the league. God ... stop putting up WRONG anaologies: Scoring a goal on your own side = attacking your own buildings/killing your own units ...
I can give u a closer analogy.
Throwing probes = giving the puck away.
Hands off keyboard = standing idle.
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On December 14 2011 19:58 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:57 babo213 wrote:On December 14 2011 19:55 bluQ wrote:On December 14 2011 19:53 Kiarip wrote:On December 14 2011 19:51 Demonace34 wrote:On December 14 2011 19:42 Kiarip wrote:On December 14 2011 19:41 Demonace34 wrote:On December 14 2011 19:35 Neelia wrote:On December 14 2011 19:14 Grettin wrote:On December 14 2011 19:12 PET wrote:
Ok. I'm curious.
What strategies are for GOM ... ok? Is it ok to do a 6 pool? Is it ok to take 4 drones and attack? We clearly see we can't probe rush ...
Soon we will see that the minimum game requirement is 30 minutes and we get 15 minutes to "evolve" like playing on Big Game Hunters 10 years ago.
Do you understand that you can't win with a strategy like probe rush in a competition like GSL. You might not win straight-up with 6pooling, but you can follow it up and win. That is the difference between these. Do you think you can win a GSL match with Nexus first in PvP? I'm quite certain that the chances to succeed with nexus first is about as high as the 7 probe rush. Does anyone think HerO should be punished? I don't think so. The difference is that a 7 probe rush is a failure 99.9% of the time, Nexus first against a player who doesn't scout can actually work and be a strategy. 12 drone rush actually can work on Steppes of War back in the day, the difference is that the player doing the drone rush is trying to win, the 7 probe rush is saying, "fuck this tournament, see ya later". probe rush against a player that doesn't micro can also win. Okay, so you are saying that if GSL is a joke competition(without the other person microing) you can win... So in this case, GSL says, Naniwa has disrespected the tournament and isn't fit to be a competitor because the tournament is suppose to be the best in the world. If you put out a product and people are paying to watch the best players in SCII, why would you let someone throw a game on purpose? It is one thing to just FF or make an excuse, it is another thing to worker rush and GG. Um... that's great. How about we play some games ZvP and PvP... I'm not a super high grandmaster GSL level player, but I bet you that I will win not only 100% of the games where you 7 probe rush me in ZvP, but I will also beat you in 100% of the games where you Nexus first in PvP... and yet somehow Hero didn't get punished for his Nexus first. Two good reasons why he didn't get punished: He is korean. He is cuter than Nani. Aren't those totally legit reasons? No? Except on CBtS Killer tried that as well in a PvP. Had Hero got the probe he would have been fine. no he wouldn't have... so mcuh shit beats that build. 4 gate with warpprism rapes it also, it's practically impossible to lose against nexus first.
But it's not like you build a nexus and take your hands off the keyboard while waiting for the guy to kill you. One is a (ridiculously) risky strat, the other one is throwing the game.
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On December 14 2011 19:56 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:55 Focuspants wrote:On December 14 2011 19:32 hahaimhenry wrote:On December 14 2011 19:30 Focuspants wrote:
Im happy with this decision. Anyone in any other sport would have been punished for this action. There are tons of players that would kill someone to get a chance to play a game on that grand of a stage vs. a player like Nestea. Im a fan of Hero, and it was breaking my heart watching him not play his best. But he still tried. You could see how upset he was, but he handled it like a pro, took his lumps, and still PLAYED the game, because thats what he signed up for. We pay money to watch the tournament, not to watch someone not give a shit. If this happened at a pro sporting event, fans would be outraged. The fact that people support his behaviour is completely mind boggling.
I think the punishment is very fit for what he did. You're from Canada, I bet you watch hockey like I do. When has a team in the NHL gotten punished for not playing their best players? If you watch basketball, teams seeded in the playoffs start playing their B-teamers near the end of the season 'cause it doesn't matter anymore. The NBA doesn't punish them for this. Equating what he did to playing B teamers is a terrible analogy. Those B teamers have something to prove. They push hard, try to win, play for pride, play for the fans. You do realize we essentially allow them to do what they do. if nobody watched, or paid money, their job wouldnt exist. Probe rushing would be more like a hockey team getting the puck at the opening faceoff, putting it in their own net, and skating off the ice, then saying the game didnt mean anything who cares. Any PROFESSIONAL athlete should realize, that even if they dont give a shit, they owe it to the fans, sponsors, their team, and the sport, to play the game. If I went to a Leafs game (I live in Toronto) and somethign like this happened, i would be outraged, as would the whole city, as would the league. God ... stop putting up WRONG anaologies: Scoring a goal on your own side = attacking your own buildings/killing your own units ...
No because doing that is the only way you lose 100% of the time. Naniwa did the only thing that loses the game, 100% of the time.
To touch on your point above, you are paid by a boss, who you are responsible to. If you do something he/she doesnt like, they have the right to punsih and fire you. On top of this, as a professional athlete, the spectators essentially pay you. You owe them everything. Saying I dont give a shit this makes me no money, is selfish, and entirely unprofessional, because Naniwa would make a grand total of $0 if we didnt pay to watch him.
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Coca got a harsher punishment, I dont understand why everybody is defending Naniwa
he got off lightly
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On December 14 2011 20:00 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:58 Sailincieri wrote:
Kids, this is obvious decision, you should understand why...
GSL is tournament for professional players, playing is profession, not some kind of fun.
In GSL they play for audience! Not for themselves. Do you think in normal JOB you can say to your boss that you have bad humor and dont wanna work? NO!
Naniwa, no matter what he think, should just sit in that booth and give fight with all his heart! To respect Korean audience, NesTea, GSL stuff, online audience etc.
And another guy putting up wrong analogies... First of all: I work for the money not my boss. Second if I feel my actualy output of my work doesnt have any impact on my earnings I will only do what is needed and nothing more. So ... lets see what Nani did ... right ... he did only what he needed to do ...
Do you work?
You don't decide your own responsibilities and duties when you get hired.
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I'm very surprised at how harsh the punishment was, I was just expecting a fine/warning.
GOM really laying the smack-down on the "amateur prize money hunter."
I mean really, can you blame them for having this opinion? A foreigner that most of the Korean pro gamers have never heard of / seen play gets the chance to compete against top Korean opposition and he probe rushes because there's nothing in it for him.
Very selfish, disrespectful play... Glad they have taken the stance they have.
The only thing I imagine he can do to get his respect back now is to knuckle down and earn it again. If we do see him on a GOM stage again he will forever be the most bad-ass of bad guys and would be pretty awesome to see.
All that being said, we all make mistakes in life... Every single one of us, and I won't judge him by them.
Gogo Naniwa, hope you stick with it, with the eyes of the world on you, will you fight and rise? Or turn your tail and run?
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On December 14 2011 19:59 StUfF wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:57 Clearout wrote:On December 14 2011 19:55 Xax wrote:On December 14 2011 19:47 Hagg wrote:
To quote another poster:
Gom should have been professional about being professional.
Naniwa probably deserved some kind of punishment, but GOM handled it more like the average butthurt toddler would than an international league. The justification given (the rule) is WAY too vague, and the personal attack upon Naniwa was dispicable. The funny thing is that the community is bashing Gom for something someone vaguely translated on twitter. Maybe wait for a proper press release with non-lost-in-translation-wording. I think losing his Code S spot is way too harsh a punishment, therefore I will boycott the next GSL season. No chance of misunderstanding, when I think that is petty way of acting, throwing out a punishment way too harsh for the "crime", IMO. What would have been an acceptable punishment? I don't see really any way where it would have really hurt Naniwa and discourage this behaviour in the future. I found their first reaction fine, which was not inviting him to other invitationals like the Blizzard Cup. There is a difference in not giving him a privilege like that, and give the chance in their minds more deserving and "professionally minded players", than robbing him from his Code S spot which he earned at MLG.
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On December 14 2011 19:33 HappyChris wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:32 h41fgod wrote:
Actually, to be blunt, that seems more like a comment on why Stephano has not recieved a seed... Stephano turned down any seeds he wont play GSL
Exactly. I heard he was also saying it would take too much time and be a money loss for him...
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On December 14 2011 20:00 Ncutable wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:54 bluQ wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 14 2011 19:53 Ncutable wrote:
To all these people comparing the situation to some professional sports. I think it´s most comparable to the Football WC. World´s best teams meet to represent their countries and decide who is the best team at the moment. But it´s not just that but also a big reason to celebrate the sport and have a great time, both for the fans and the players. So when in group stage there´s the third game to be played and 2 teams face who are already out (both lost first 2 games etc.) they give it their best nonetheless and usually also field their best players. Because it´s an honour to be one of the qualified teams and a pretty rare possibility for the fans to see their team compete against these other champions.
BlizzCup is a tourney that afaik GOM especially set up as a season closing event where fans get to see the best players from around the world showcasing there talents. That´s why Naniwa-Nestea game was played and in Up&Downs games like this aren´t. Not true. Just not true. Germany don't starts with their best team-setup when they advanced no matter the result of the game. Stop telling lies please. In case they don´t care about if they get 1st or 2nd, yes. But they do it because they either take care that their top players don´t get hurt/get some rest (the top players have a pretty packed season) or they want to try out how some players fit into the system. So, I think your argument is lacking in this regard.
There was no argument. I was stateing facts.
To give you an argument: Naniwa was resting his wrists so he could practice more in the evening and didn't want to show any gosu-strats of him. Enough of an arugment even if it is not true?
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On December 14 2011 20:01 sandyph wrote:
Coca got a harsher punishment, I dont understand why everybody is defending Naniwa
he got off lightly Coca was punished by Slayers not GOM, so that is hurting GOM's position more than helping IMO.
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On December 14 2011 19:59 Demonace34 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:53 Kiarip wrote:On December 14 2011 19:51 Demonace34 wrote:On December 14 2011 19:42 Kiarip wrote:On December 14 2011 19:41 Demonace34 wrote:On December 14 2011 19:35 Neelia wrote:On December 14 2011 19:14 Grettin wrote:On December 14 2011 19:12 PET wrote:
Ok. I'm curious.
What strategies are for GOM ... ok? Is it ok to do a 6 pool? Is it ok to take 4 drones and attack? We clearly see we can't probe rush ...
Soon we will see that the minimum game requirement is 30 minutes and we get 15 minutes to "evolve" like playing on Big Game Hunters 10 years ago.
Do you understand that you can't win with a strategy like probe rush in a competition like GSL. You might not win straight-up with 6pooling, but you can follow it up and win. That is the difference between these. Do you think you can win a GSL match with Nexus first in PvP? I'm quite certain that the chances to succeed with nexus first is about as high as the 7 probe rush. Does anyone think HerO should be punished? I don't think so. The difference is that a 7 probe rush is a failure 99.9% of the time, Nexus first against a player who doesn't scout can actually work and be a strategy. 12 drone rush actually can work on Steppes of War back in the day, the difference is that the player doing the drone rush is trying to win, the 7 probe rush is saying, "fuck this tournament, see ya later". probe rush against a player that doesn't micro can also win. Okay, so you are saying that if GSL is a joke competition(without the other person microing) you can win... So in this case, GSL says, Naniwa has disrespected the tournament and isn't fit to be a competitor because the tournament is suppose to be the best in the world. If you put out a product and people are paying to watch the best players in SCII, why would you let someone throw a game on purpose? It is one thing to just FF or make an excuse, it is another thing to worker rush and GG. Um... that's great. How about we play some games ZvP and PvP... I'm not a super high grandmaster GSL level player, but I bet you that I will win not only 100% of the games where you 7 probe rush me in ZvP, but I will also beat you in 100% of the games where you Nexus first in PvP... and yet somehow Hero didn't get punished for his Nexus first. 7 worker rush gets to your base, you have more workers, anyone silver or higher should win. PvP Nexus first, this is greedy as hell and can be interpreted as throwing a game, but it still makes the enemy have to scout and react to it. I think GOM could still probably make a case that this would be "throwing the game" and being "unsportsmanlike" and not worthy to be a progamer. What I'm trying to say is that intentionally throwing a game by worker rushing is different than making the opponent scout and shut down the other persons strategy ...be it nexus first, baneling bust, whatever.
No baneling bust can win with metagame, because you have lings in time to try to hide your strategy. You can't HIDE nexus first... unless it's liek a hidden nexus but that's not what's in question.
I'm sure that Naniwa can easily beat zergs in Silver league with a probe rush. Even with a worker disadvantage you can win by out micro'ing your opponent really badly. It wasn't gonna happen against Nestea, but I've seen grandmaster players lose 2 workers against 2 worker harass, and things like that, it's not unheard of, regardless it's no different htan nexus first.
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On December 14 2011 19:54 nam nam wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 14 2011 19:53 Ncutable wrote:
To all these people comparing the situation to some professional sports. I think it´s most comparable to the Football WC. World´s best teams meet to represent their countries and decide who is the best team at the moment. But it´s not just that but also a big reason to celebrate the sport and have a great time, both for the fans and the players. So when in group stage there´s the third game to be played and 2 teams face who are already out (both lost first 2 games etc.) they give it their best nonetheless and usually also field their best players. Because it´s an honour to be one of the qualified teams and a pretty rare possibility for the fans to see their team compete against these other champions.
BlizzCup is a tourney that afaik GOM especially set up as a season closing event where fans get to see the best players from around the world showcasing there talents. That´s why Naniwa-Nestea game was played and in Up&Downs games like this aren´t. They don't always give it their best though.
I give you that. But that´s in part because they need to stay away from injury. Also, they don´t all (including the goal keeper) just run straight after the ball leaving their goal unwatched.
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On December 14 2011 19:59 hahaimhenry wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:56 bluQ wrote:On December 14 2011 19:55 Focuspants wrote:On December 14 2011 19:32 hahaimhenry wrote:On December 14 2011 19:30 Focuspants wrote:
Im happy with this decision. Anyone in any other sport would have been punished for this action. There are tons of players that would kill someone to get a chance to play a game on that grand of a stage vs. a player like Nestea. Im a fan of Hero, and it was breaking my heart watching him not play his best. But he still tried. You could see how upset he was, but he handled it like a pro, took his lumps, and still PLAYED the game, because thats what he signed up for. We pay money to watch the tournament, not to watch someone not give a shit. If this happened at a pro sporting event, fans would be outraged. The fact that people support his behaviour is completely mind boggling.
I think the punishment is very fit for what he did. You're from Canada, I bet you watch hockey like I do. When has a team in the NHL gotten punished for not playing their best players? If you watch basketball, teams seeded in the playoffs start playing their B-teamers near the end of the season 'cause it doesn't matter anymore. The NBA doesn't punish them for this. Equating what he did to playing B teamers is a terrible analogy. Those B teamers have something to prove. They push hard, try to win, play for pride, play for the fans. You do realize we essentially allow them to do what they do. if nobody watched, or paid money, their job wouldnt exist. Probe rushing would be more like a hockey team getting the puck at the opening faceoff, putting it in their own net, and skating off the ice, then saying the game didnt mean anything who cares. Any PROFESSIONAL athlete should realize, that even if they dont give a shit, they owe it to the fans, sponsors, their team, and the sport, to play the game. If I went to a Leafs game (I live in Toronto) and somethign like this happened, i would be outraged, as would the whole city, as would the league. God ... stop putting up WRONG anaologies: Scoring a goal on your own side = attacking your own buildings/killing your own units ... IKR? you're saying how B-teamers are playing hard and everything, but we're looking at the team as a whole. the team is not using their multimillion dollar athletes to do their jobs, instead using their developing players. If you REALLY want to win a game, you put out your best players, simple enough? But they don't do that in real sports and DON'T GET PUNISHED.
So the correct analogy is to hit the puck once as weakly as possible towards the opposing team's goalie. Then when the goalie blocks the goal the entire team goes and sits on the bench until the refs declare the game over.
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On December 14 2011 20:01 sandyph wrote:
Coca got a harsher punishment, I dont understand why everybody is defending Naniwa
he got off lightly
Coca didn't get punished by GomTV. It was SlayerS who decided on his punishment. In fact, I don't think GomTV even made a statement about the matter. So the two situations cannot be compared.
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Money grubbing, yea I bet all of the other players would play if they would earn no money on it. OH WAIT!
Feels like Mr Chae is getting too power horney and abuses it, just waiting for KeSPA to come into SC2 now and take over.
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Whether or not it was correct to de-seed Naniwa for the GSL Code S tournament based on a potentially questionable (depending on your own cultural background) interpretation of the rule regarding respecting players and the audience, the justification given by GOM is ludicrous. They want "pro minded players" not "amateur prize money hunters". But... if you are playing professionally, you are by definition a prize money hunter. You can talk about playing for love of the game, but to play professionally you must be paid for you labors - and in the eSports context this means winning prize money at tournaments.
Would it have been better if Naniwa simply put up a forge, and started turtling on one base with a bazillion cannons to drag the game as long as possible? There was no incentive for him to play any better or worse - there was no impact to his paycheck and the ranking in this tournament doesn't carry in any global sense. GOM TV's action is similar to the NFL deciding to ban the (insert hated team here) because they stink, and don't play entertaining games ever - they still play, but who wants to watch it?
GOM can do whatever they would like (it is their tournament) but I would appreciate a better enunciation of exactly what their reasoning is - the explanation noted doesn't carry weight with the impact of the punishment.
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Honestly, I am shocked by the amount of people who are trying to "boycott" Gom, and to be even more frank, I find it ridiculously absurd and stupid of what people are saying to defend NaNiwa. First of all, if you don't want to watch the GSL anymore because of this, boohoo, get out then. Nobody cares, and if you condone NaNiwa's behavior then Gom doesn't need people like you anyway. Second of all, "NaNiwa didn't break any rules" is the most childish argument you could throw at this situation. When you become an "adult" and "mature", you start realizing that your behavior shouldn't be guided by "rules". There's absolutely no excuse for NaNiwa's disrespect. It's not just what he did, but how he did it, understanding the weight of the match even. You guys really want to defend a guy who would do that to his fans? Have some self-respect, damn.
There's a level of respect that you have to show, when you enter someone else's turf. Also, whether or not you're a NesTea fan, he is one of the best players in the world, and when you face someone of that caliber, you bring your best as an acknowledgement of their skill. This was disrespectful. AND EVEN THOUGH, I don't entirely agree that a punishment this severe is necessary, if Gom sees FIT, then so be it. They have every right. NaNiwa shouldn't be babied for any reason whatsoever, and let this be an example and set a standard for all players and a level of professionalism.
TL;DR: NaNiwa represented the foreign community and messed up embarrassingly on someone else's turf, they have every right to punish him. It's not even what he did, but how he did it.
P.S And for many of you who are defending and crying for NaNiwa, at least hide your country or something for crying out loud.
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