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On December 14 2011 19:55 Xax wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:47 Hagg wrote:
To quote another poster:
Gom should have been professional about being professional.
Naniwa probably deserved some kind of punishment, but GOM handled it more like the average butthurt toddler would than an international league. The justification given (the rule) is WAY too vague, and the personal attack upon Naniwa was dispicable. The funny thing is that the community is bashing Gom for something someone vaguely translated on twitter. Maybe wait for a proper press release with non-lost-in-translation-wording.
Well, if the press release doesn't say "Sorry, our mistake, we reverse the decision regarding naniwa" I don't see how phrasing your abuse of power and double standards changes anything.
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On December 14 2011 19:56 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:55 Focuspants wrote:On December 14 2011 19:32 hahaimhenry wrote:On December 14 2011 19:30 Focuspants wrote:
Im happy with this decision. Anyone in any other sport would have been punished for this action. There are tons of players that would kill someone to get a chance to play a game on that grand of a stage vs. a player like Nestea. Im a fan of Hero, and it was breaking my heart watching him not play his best. But he still tried. You could see how upset he was, but he handled it like a pro, took his lumps, and still PLAYED the game, because thats what he signed up for. We pay money to watch the tournament, not to watch someone not give a shit. If this happened at a pro sporting event, fans would be outraged. The fact that people support his behaviour is completely mind boggling.
I think the punishment is very fit for what he did. You're from Canada, I bet you watch hockey like I do. When has a team in the NHL gotten punished for not playing their best players? If you watch basketball, teams seeded in the playoffs start playing their B-teamers near the end of the season 'cause it doesn't matter anymore. The NBA doesn't punish them for this. Equating what he did to playing B teamers is a terrible analogy. Those B teamers have something to prove. They push hard, try to win, play for pride, play for the fans. You do realize we essentially allow them to do what they do. if nobody watched, or paid money, their job wouldnt exist. Probe rushing would be more like a hockey team getting the puck at the opening faceoff, putting it in their own net, and skating off the ice, then saying the game didnt mean anything who cares. Any PROFESSIONAL athlete should realize, that even if they dont give a shit, they owe it to the fans, sponsors, their team, and the sport, to play the game. If I went to a Leafs game (I live in Toronto) and somethign like this happened, i would be outraged, as would the whole city, as would the league. God ... stop putting up WRONG anaologies: Scoring a goal on your own side = attacking your own buildings/killing your own units ...
how about just sitting on the pitch --> hands off keyboard.
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On December 14 2011 19:55 Xax wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:47 Hagg wrote:
To quote another poster:
Gom should have been professional about being professional.
Naniwa probably deserved some kind of punishment, but GOM handled it more like the average butthurt toddler would than an international league. The justification given (the rule) is WAY too vague, and the personal attack upon Naniwa was dispicable. The funny thing is that the community is bashing Gom for something someone vaguely translated on twitter. Maybe wait for a proper press release with non-lost-in-translation-wording. I think losing his Code S spot is way too harsh a punishment, therefore I will boycott the next GSL season. No chance of misunderstanding, when I think that is petty way of acting, throwing out a punishment way too harsh for the "crime", IMO.
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On December 14 2011 19:57 Hren wrote:
I almost got the feeling, that this isn`t just about Naniwa and the question of professionalism, but more of a East versus West struggle. If some potential organized boycotting would make any impact, I would definitely join it.
It is. And it hardness the censoring-steroetype of asian countires. gj GOM 
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Kids, this is obvious decision, you should understand why...
GSL is tournament for professional players, playing is profession, not some kind of fun.
In GSL they play for audience! Not for themselves. Do you think in normal JOB you can say to your boss that you have bad humor and dont wanna work? NO!
Naniwa, no matter what he think, should just sit in that booth and give fight with all his heart! To respect Korean audience, NesTea, GSL stuff, online audience etc.
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To everyone who is claiming Naniwa was punished for 'probe-rushing', he was actually punished for throwing the game. This point shouldn't even be debated since Naniwa admitted to throwing the match in his interview.
Throwing a live match which opponents, viewers and commentators were prepared for is so selfish that a punishment should be considered essential. The severity of this is about equal to that of Rain's punishment for leaving without notice (2season ban), and I think it can be agreed that throwing a game is FAR worse than leaving without notice.
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Awesome. No one is going to dare screw around with GSL now. It's like Wimbledon. You shut-up, don't mouth at the line judges, and you can wear any color, as long as it's white. If you want to build a professional-level event, you shut down amateur behavior, with extreme prejudice.
They lose the Naniwa fans, big deal. There will be another flavor of foreigner hero coming along shortly for them to bandwagon onto. Besides, GSL doesn't give a damn about your stream viewership. Have you seen the ads on the GSL?
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On December 14 2011 19:50 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:49 Snorkle wrote:On December 14 2011 19:45 Kiarip wrote:On December 14 2011 19:44 epicdemic wrote:On December 14 2011 19:39 hjop wrote:On December 14 2011 19:04 billz wrote:
If this was any other sport then lawyers would be consulted right now about lodging legal proceedings against Gom. Pretty scandalous behaviour from them - can you really imagine Manchester United getting banned from a tournament for fielding a weakened team in a game that doesn't matter? Great comparison, except a 6 probe rush has a ZERO % chance of winning at all, where as a WEAKENED Manchester United team always has a chance of winning AND they are giving lesser experienced players an opportunity to get some experience. I think you'd be better off comparing it to Manchester United not showing up at all, because then they'd have a ZERO % chance of winning. Such an out of place comparison. Naniwa could have just proxy 2 gated, cannon rushed or 4 gated. GOMTV isn't criticizing the build order, but the attitude of Naniwa. He didn't take the match seriously. So when Manchester United doesn't take a match seriously by fielding their worst players, that's a good comparison And what's the punishment for manchester united when they do that? because in the NBA there's no punishment but I don't follow euro soccer Great Decision by GOM. We expect sportsmanship like conduct in every sport. If SC2 is to be considered an esport then hell sportsmanship being required is a no brainer.
Every sport has penalties against unsportsmanlike conduct. Technical fouls in the NBA, yellow cards in football for diving, etc., There is no defense for Naniwa. It was unsportsmanlike. Looks like Naniwa needs to learn a few things about how to conduct himself when he is representing the foreigner community, Quantic, Startale, and his own country. except in the NBA meaningless games are thrown all the time, and no one gets suspensions or technicals for them. The difference is that in the NBA it is understood that you are giving your up and coming players a chance to gain experience and maybe even gain exposure for a good performance. Naniwa didn't even take advantage of the chance to play against an amazing zerg in a televised match. If an NBA team just showed up and stood on the court while the other team played by themselves, then you would have an analogous situation to what Naniwa did. And trust me if a team did that they would get their asses fined into oblivion. no it's nothing like that actually. In fact it is the play-off teams that do this the most, and they do it because they want to REST THEIR STARTERS... because the game isn't worth winning... so the situation is completely similar. The only difference is that in starcraft you can end a game very fast and in all sports it has to last a set amount of time.
That is just the other side of the same coin. They have mathematically secured their playoff spot so yeah they can afford to not risk their best players and at the same time allow their 2nd team to gain experience. Still not the same as not showing up to play at all. As many have said Naniwa just needed to put up a 2nd team effort to avoid all of this. But Naniwa has this problem where he is only concerned about himself and doesn't take into account how others will perceive his actions or how they will affect others.
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On December 14 2011 19:53 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:51 Demonace34 wrote:On December 14 2011 19:42 Kiarip wrote:On December 14 2011 19:41 Demonace34 wrote:On December 14 2011 19:35 Neelia wrote:On December 14 2011 19:14 Grettin wrote:On December 14 2011 19:12 PET wrote:
Ok. I'm curious.
What strategies are for GOM ... ok? Is it ok to do a 6 pool? Is it ok to take 4 drones and attack? We clearly see we can't probe rush ...
Soon we will see that the minimum game requirement is 30 minutes and we get 15 minutes to "evolve" like playing on Big Game Hunters 10 years ago.
Do you understand that you can't win with a strategy like probe rush in a competition like GSL. You might not win straight-up with 6pooling, but you can follow it up and win. That is the difference between these. Do you think you can win a GSL match with Nexus first in PvP? I'm quite certain that the chances to succeed with nexus first is about as high as the 7 probe rush. Does anyone think HerO should be punished? I don't think so. The difference is that a 7 probe rush is a failure 99.9% of the time, Nexus first against a player who doesn't scout can actually work and be a strategy. 12 drone rush actually can work on Steppes of War back in the day, the difference is that the player doing the drone rush is trying to win, the 7 probe rush is saying, "fuck this tournament, see ya later". probe rush against a player that doesn't micro can also win. Okay, so you are saying that if GSL is a joke competition(without the other person microing) you can win... So in this case, GSL says, Naniwa has disrespected the tournament and isn't fit to be a competitor because the tournament is suppose to be the best in the world. If you put out a product and people are paying to watch the best players in SCII, why would you let someone throw a game on purpose? It is one thing to just FF or make an excuse, it is another thing to worker rush and GG. Um... that's great. How about we play some games ZvP and PvP... I'm not a super high grandmaster GSL level player, but I bet you that I will win not only 100% of the games where you 7 probe rush me in ZvP, but I will also beat you in 100% of the games where you Nexus first in PvP... and yet somehow Hero didn't get punished for his Nexus first.
Nexus first is not a 100% lose strat... its not even comparable. Its called meta game
If Hero believes his opponent would go fast DT, nexus first is fine
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![[image loading]](http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/photos/images/original/000/208/368/shamefurdispray2.jpg)
^
Literally the entire SC2 community right now.
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Screw GOM. I ain't watching their productions anymore.
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On December 14 2011 19:57 Hren wrote:
I almost got the feeling, that this isn`t just about Naniwa and the question of professionalism, but more of a East versus West struggle. If some potential organized boycotting would make any impact, I would definitely join it.
I think some people try to inflate the whole thing though racism and xenophobia.
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On December 14 2011 19:57 babo213 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:55 bluQ wrote:On December 14 2011 19:53 Kiarip wrote:On December 14 2011 19:51 Demonace34 wrote:On December 14 2011 19:42 Kiarip wrote:On December 14 2011 19:41 Demonace34 wrote:On December 14 2011 19:35 Neelia wrote:On December 14 2011 19:14 Grettin wrote:On December 14 2011 19:12 PET wrote:
Ok. I'm curious.
What strategies are for GOM ... ok? Is it ok to do a 6 pool? Is it ok to take 4 drones and attack? We clearly see we can't probe rush ...
Soon we will see that the minimum game requirement is 30 minutes and we get 15 minutes to "evolve" like playing on Big Game Hunters 10 years ago.
Do you understand that you can't win with a strategy like probe rush in a competition like GSL. You might not win straight-up with 6pooling, but you can follow it up and win. That is the difference between these. Do you think you can win a GSL match with Nexus first in PvP? I'm quite certain that the chances to succeed with nexus first is about as high as the 7 probe rush. Does anyone think HerO should be punished? I don't think so. The difference is that a 7 probe rush is a failure 99.9% of the time, Nexus first against a player who doesn't scout can actually work and be a strategy. 12 drone rush actually can work on Steppes of War back in the day, the difference is that the player doing the drone rush is trying to win, the 7 probe rush is saying, "fuck this tournament, see ya later". probe rush against a player that doesn't micro can also win. Okay, so you are saying that if GSL is a joke competition(without the other person microing) you can win... So in this case, GSL says, Naniwa has disrespected the tournament and isn't fit to be a competitor because the tournament is suppose to be the best in the world. If you put out a product and people are paying to watch the best players in SCII, why would you let someone throw a game on purpose? It is one thing to just FF or make an excuse, it is another thing to worker rush and GG. Um... that's great. How about we play some games ZvP and PvP... I'm not a super high grandmaster GSL level player, but I bet you that I will win not only 100% of the games where you 7 probe rush me in ZvP, but I will also beat you in 100% of the games where you Nexus first in PvP... and yet somehow Hero didn't get punished for his Nexus first. Two good reasons why he didn't get punished: He is korean. He is cuter than Nani. Aren't those totally legit reasons? No? Except on CBtS Killer tried that as well in a PvP. Had Hero got the probe he would have been fine.
no he wouldn't have... so mcuh shit beats that build. 4 gate with warpprism rapes it also, it's practically impossible to lose against nexus first.
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The Swedish football team have had some 'interesting' results, like the 2-2 in the European Championships that allowed both them and denmark to go through at the expense of italy (the only result that would have). If a draw is the best result for both teams (IE both teams qualify if they draw, one goes out if either team loses) then you'll see players playing keep-ball and making zero attempt to score. Is playing keep-ball and not attempting to score that fun to watch? not really.
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On December 14 2011 19:57 Clearout wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:55 Xax wrote:On December 14 2011 19:47 Hagg wrote:
To quote another poster:
Gom should have been professional about being professional.
Naniwa probably deserved some kind of punishment, but GOM handled it more like the average butthurt toddler would than an international league. The justification given (the rule) is WAY too vague, and the personal attack upon Naniwa was dispicable. The funny thing is that the community is bashing Gom for something someone vaguely translated on twitter. Maybe wait for a proper press release with non-lost-in-translation-wording. I think losing his Code S spot is way too harsh a punishment, therefore I will boycott the next GSL season. No chance of misunderstanding, when I think that is petty way of acting, throwing out a punishment way too harsh for the "crime", IMO.
What would have been an acceptable punishment?
I don't see really any way where it would have really hurt Naniwa and discourage this behaviour in the future.
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On December 14 2011 19:56 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:55 Focuspants wrote:On December 14 2011 19:32 hahaimhenry wrote:On December 14 2011 19:30 Focuspants wrote:
Im happy with this decision. Anyone in any other sport would have been punished for this action. There are tons of players that would kill someone to get a chance to play a game on that grand of a stage vs. a player like Nestea. Im a fan of Hero, and it was breaking my heart watching him not play his best. But he still tried. You could see how upset he was, but he handled it like a pro, took his lumps, and still PLAYED the game, because thats what he signed up for. We pay money to watch the tournament, not to watch someone not give a shit. If this happened at a pro sporting event, fans would be outraged. The fact that people support his behaviour is completely mind boggling.
I think the punishment is very fit for what he did. You're from Canada, I bet you watch hockey like I do. When has a team in the NHL gotten punished for not playing their best players? If you watch basketball, teams seeded in the playoffs start playing their B-teamers near the end of the season 'cause it doesn't matter anymore. The NBA doesn't punish them for this. Equating what he did to playing B teamers is a terrible analogy. Those B teamers have something to prove. They push hard, try to win, play for pride, play for the fans. You do realize we essentially allow them to do what they do. if nobody watched, or paid money, their job wouldnt exist. Probe rushing would be more like a hockey team getting the puck at the opening faceoff, putting it in their own net, and skating off the ice, then saying the game didnt mean anything who cares. Any PROFESSIONAL athlete should realize, that even if they dont give a shit, they owe it to the fans, sponsors, their team, and the sport, to play the game. If I went to a Leafs game (I live in Toronto) and somethign like this happened, i would be outraged, as would the whole city, as would the league. God ... stop putting up WRONG anaologies: Scoring a goal on your own side = attacking your own buildings/killing your own units ...
IKR? you're saying how B-teamers are playing hard and everything, but we're looking at the team as a whole. the team is not using their multimillion dollar athletes to do their jobs, instead using their developing players. If you REALLY want to win a game, you put out your best players, simple enough? But they don't do that in real sports and DON'T GET PUNISHED.
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"During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours"
GG manner MULEs, dancing Zealots, etc...
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On December 14 2011 19:58 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:53 Kiarip wrote:On December 14 2011 19:51 Demonace34 wrote:On December 14 2011 19:42 Kiarip wrote:On December 14 2011 19:41 Demonace34 wrote:On December 14 2011 19:35 Neelia wrote:On December 14 2011 19:14 Grettin wrote:On December 14 2011 19:12 PET wrote:
Ok. I'm curious.
What strategies are for GOM ... ok? Is it ok to do a 6 pool? Is it ok to take 4 drones and attack? We clearly see we can't probe rush ...
Soon we will see that the minimum game requirement is 30 minutes and we get 15 minutes to "evolve" like playing on Big Game Hunters 10 years ago.
Do you understand that you can't win with a strategy like probe rush in a competition like GSL. You might not win straight-up with 6pooling, but you can follow it up and win. That is the difference between these. Do you think you can win a GSL match with Nexus first in PvP? I'm quite certain that the chances to succeed with nexus first is about as high as the 7 probe rush. Does anyone think HerO should be punished? I don't think so. The difference is that a 7 probe rush is a failure 99.9% of the time, Nexus first against a player who doesn't scout can actually work and be a strategy. 12 drone rush actually can work on Steppes of War back in the day, the difference is that the player doing the drone rush is trying to win, the 7 probe rush is saying, "fuck this tournament, see ya later". probe rush against a player that doesn't micro can also win. Okay, so you are saying that if GSL is a joke competition(without the other person microing) you can win... So in this case, GSL says, Naniwa has disrespected the tournament and isn't fit to be a competitor because the tournament is suppose to be the best in the world. If you put out a product and people are paying to watch the best players in SCII, why would you let someone throw a game on purpose? It is one thing to just FF or make an excuse, it is another thing to worker rush and GG. Um... that's great. How about we play some games ZvP and PvP... I'm not a super high grandmaster GSL level player, but I bet you that I will win not only 100% of the games where you 7 probe rush me in ZvP, but I will also beat you in 100% of the games where you Nexus first in PvP... and yet somehow Hero didn't get punished for his Nexus first. Nexus first is not a 100% lose strat... its not even comparable. Its called meta game If Hero believes his opponent would go fast DT, nexus first is fine
... so what you're basically saying is if a professional player doesn't send a scout in PvP he will lose.... You ALWAYS probe scout in pvp. it's hte most important match to worker scout in the whole game.
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On December 14 2011 19:53 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:51 Demonace34 wrote:On December 14 2011 19:42 Kiarip wrote:On December 14 2011 19:41 Demonace34 wrote:On December 14 2011 19:35 Neelia wrote:On December 14 2011 19:14 Grettin wrote:On December 14 2011 19:12 PET wrote:
Ok. I'm curious.
What strategies are for GOM ... ok? Is it ok to do a 6 pool? Is it ok to take 4 drones and attack? We clearly see we can't probe rush ...
Soon we will see that the minimum game requirement is 30 minutes and we get 15 minutes to "evolve" like playing on Big Game Hunters 10 years ago.
Do you understand that you can't win with a strategy like probe rush in a competition like GSL. You might not win straight-up with 6pooling, but you can follow it up and win. That is the difference between these. Do you think you can win a GSL match with Nexus first in PvP? I'm quite certain that the chances to succeed with nexus first is about as high as the 7 probe rush. Does anyone think HerO should be punished? I don't think so. The difference is that a 7 probe rush is a failure 99.9% of the time, Nexus first against a player who doesn't scout can actually work and be a strategy. 12 drone rush actually can work on Steppes of War back in the day, the difference is that the player doing the drone rush is trying to win, the 7 probe rush is saying, "fuck this tournament, see ya later". probe rush against a player that doesn't micro can also win. Okay, so you are saying that if GSL is a joke competition(without the other person microing) you can win... So in this case, GSL says, Naniwa has disrespected the tournament and isn't fit to be a competitor because the tournament is suppose to be the best in the world. If you put out a product and people are paying to watch the best players in SCII, why would you let someone throw a game on purpose? It is one thing to just FF or make an excuse, it is another thing to worker rush and GG. Um... that's great. How about we play some games ZvP and PvP... I'm not a super high grandmaster GSL level player, but I bet you that I will win not only 100% of the games where you 7 probe rush me in ZvP, but I will also beat you in 100% of the games where you Nexus first in PvP... and yet somehow Hero didn't get punished for his Nexus first.
7 worker rush gets to your base, you have more workers, anyone silver or higher should win.
PvP Nexus first, this is greedy as hell and can be interpreted as throwing a game, but it still makes the enemy have to scout and react to it. I think GOM could still probably make a case that this would be "throwing the game" and being "unsportsmanlike" and not worthy to be a progamer.
What I'm trying to say is that intentionally throwing a game by worker rushing is different than making the opponent scout and shut down the other persons strategy ...be it nexus first, baneling bust, whatever.
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On December 14 2011 19:54 bluQ wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 14 2011 19:53 Ncutable wrote:
To all these people comparing the situation to some professional sports. I think it´s most comparable to the Football WC. World´s best teams meet to represent their countries and decide who is the best team at the moment. But it´s not just that but also a big reason to celebrate the sport and have a great time, both for the fans and the players. So when in group stage there´s the third game to be played and 2 teams face who are already out (both lost first 2 games etc.) they give it their best nonetheless and usually also field their best players. Because it´s an honour to be one of the qualified teams and a pretty rare possibility for the fans to see their team compete against these other champions.
BlizzCup is a tourney that afaik GOM especially set up as a season closing event where fans get to see the best players from around the world showcasing there talents. That´s why Naniwa-Nestea game was played and in Up&Downs games like this aren´t. Not true. Just not true. Germany don't starts with their best team-setup when they advanced no matter the result of the game. Stop telling lies please.
In case they don´t care about if they get 1st or 2nd, yes. But they do it because they either take care that their top players don´t get hurt/get some rest (the top players have a pretty packed season) or they want to try out how some players fit into the system. So, I think your argument is lacking in this regard.
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EPT
