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VAGZ
Profile Joined September 2010
574 Posts
December 14 2011 10:53 GMT
#441
I think this is actually good for Naniwa in order for him to change his behaviour, maybe he will learn his lesson now. So unnecessary of him to forfeit a game like that in the first place...
forSeohyun
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
504 Posts
December 14 2011 10:53 GMT
#442
On December 14 2011 19:43 Monsen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 19:40 StatorFlux wrote:
On December 14 2011 19:32 vjee32 wrote:
All you babies crying that punishment is too harsh and nani did nothing AGAINST THE RULES.

Name any other professional league in any sport where trying to lose as fast as possible is not punishable?


Not going to argue, just provide and example that it could be otherwise -
As far as I know: Professional cycling!

You have people slow pedaling, you have people riding only 3 days out of a week long race and then calling it quits just for the sake of training, you have agreements in the peloton where you don't attack and teams helping each other with favours.

You have show races where the riders are paid and the winner's are agreed upon beforehand.

And pretty anything goes, except buying real races (latest controversy Vino vs Kolobnev) and doing PED (although it is probably prevalent amongst some).

And it is accepted because everyone is doing it.

Naniwa should've known better though.


Yeah, and professional cycling has been doing so well as an spectator sport for the last dozen years. Well done them.


It has though, except for Germany and the doping problems (Ullrich/Jaksche/Zabel/Aldag).
"The most watched stage of 2009 was stage 20, from Montélimar to Mont Ventoux in Provence, with a global total audience of 44 million, making it the 12th most watched sporting event in the world in 2009."

Cycling is doing well all across the globe otherwise, maybe not so much in Italy (doping problems there also).
ARD/ZDF said they wanted to ditch TdF in 2008..

However, I just wanted to provide a counterexample.
Cycling is more than a hundred year old and has much more tolerance for these realities.

Naniwa did the wrong thing in the situation that is clear. Still, it is not the punishment I would've chosen.
Seohyun fan
Coca Cola Classic
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
266 Posts
December 14 2011 10:53 GMT
#443
On December 14 2011 19:52 Tachion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 19:49 Coca Cola Classic wrote:
On December 14 2011 19:48 Tachion wrote:
On December 14 2011 19:46 Coca Cola Classic wrote:
On December 14 2011 19:45 Tachion wrote:
On December 14 2011 19:43 hahaimhenry wrote:
On December 14 2011 19:39 hjop wrote:
On December 14 2011 19:04 billz wrote:
If this was any other sport then lawyers would be consulted right now about lodging legal proceedings against Gom. Pretty scandalous behaviour from them - can you really imagine Manchester United getting banned from a tournament for fielding a weakened team in a game that doesn't matter?


Great comparison, except a 6 probe rush has a ZERO % chance of winning at all, where as a WEAKENED Manchester United team always has a chance of winning AND they are giving lesser experienced players an opportunity to get some experience.

I think you'd be better off comparing it to Manchester United not showing up at all, because then they'd have a ZERO % chance of winning.

Such an out of place comparison. Naniwa could have just proxy 2 gated, cannon rushed or 4 gated.


Actually, probe rush beats someone going 6 pool.

no it doesn't lol. all you do is run your drones around till your pool finishes


i'm glad you responded to this. unbelievable.

I'm glad you responded too. I'm sure you agree?


Completely agree.

oh :| I actually thought you were being sarcastic. oops.


responding to "how to defend a probe rush when you 6 pool" is not really something I wanted to tackle. I wouldn't even know where to begin the discussion with this person.
안녕하세요~~
Snorkle
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States1648 Posts
December 14 2011 10:53 GMT
#444
On December 14 2011 19:49 Soma.bokforlag wrote:
I have payed for every single season of gom since season 1 and was planning to buy the season ticket for the entire upcoming year. no chance i will now. go to h**l gom

I call shenanigans. But if you really don't want to watch what is bound to be one of the best seasons of GSL yet I guess that is on you.
Kiarip
Profile Joined August 2008
United States1835 Posts
December 14 2011 10:53 GMT
#445
On December 14 2011 19:51 Demonace34 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 19:42 Kiarip wrote:
On December 14 2011 19:41 Demonace34 wrote:
On December 14 2011 19:35 Neelia wrote:
On December 14 2011 19:14 Grettin wrote:
On December 14 2011 19:12 PET wrote:
Ok. I'm curious.

What strategies are for GOM ... ok? Is it ok to do a 6 pool? Is it ok to take 4 drones and attack? We clearly see we can't probe rush ...

Soon we will see that the minimum game requirement is 30 minutes and we get 15 minutes to "evolve" like playing on Big Game Hunters 10 years ago.


Do you understand that you can't win with a strategy like probe rush in a competition like GSL. You might not win straight-up with 6pooling, but you can follow it up and win. That is the difference between these.


Do you think you can win a GSL match with Nexus first in PvP? I'm quite certain that the chances to succeed with nexus first is about as high as the 7 probe rush. Does anyone think HerO should be punished? I don't think so.


The difference is that a 7 probe rush is a failure 99.9% of the time, Nexus first against a player who doesn't scout can actually work and be a strategy. 12 drone rush actually can work on Steppes of War back in the day, the difference is that the player doing the drone rush is trying to win, the 7 probe rush is saying, "fuck this tournament, see ya later".

probe rush against a player that doesn't micro can also win.


Okay, so you are saying that if GSL is a joke competition(without the other person microing) you can win... So in this case, GSL says, Naniwa has disrespected the tournament and isn't fit to be a competitor because the tournament is suppose to be the best in the world. If you put out a product and people are paying to watch the best players in SCII, why would you let someone throw a game on purpose? It is one thing to just FF or make an excuse, it is another thing to worker rush and GG.


Um... that's great. How about we play some games ZvP and PvP... I'm not a super high grandmaster GSL level player, but I bet you that I will win not only 100% of the games where you 7 probe rush me in ZvP, but I will also beat you in 100% of the games where you Nexus first in PvP...

and yet somehow Hero didn't get punished for his Nexus first.
bluQ
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Germany1724 Posts
December 14 2011 10:54 GMT
#446
On December 14 2011 19:53 Ncutable wrote:
To all these people comparing the situation to some professional sports. I think it´s most comparable to the Football WC. World´s best teams meet to represent their countries and decide who is the best team at the moment. But it´s not just that but also a big reason to celebrate the sport and have a great time, both for the fans and the players. So when in group stage there´s the third game to be played and 2 teams face who are already out (both lost first 2 games etc.) they give it their best nonetheless and usually also field their best players. Because it´s an honour to be one of the qualified teams and a pretty rare possibility for the fans to see their team compete against these other champions.
BlizzCup is a tourney that afaik GOM especially set up as a season closing event where fans get to see the best players from around the world showcasing there talents. That´s why Naniwa-Nestea game was played and in Up&Downs games like this aren´t.


Not true. Just not true. Germany don't starts with their best team-setup when they advanced no matter the result of the game. Stop telling lies please.
www.twitch.tv/bluquh (PoE, Starbow, HS)
nam nam
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden4672 Posts
December 14 2011 10:54 GMT
#447
On December 14 2011 19:53 Ncutable wrote:
To all these people comparing the situation to some professional sports. I think it´s most comparable to the Football WC. World´s best teams meet to represent their countries and decide who is the best team at the moment. But it´s not just that but also a big reason to celebrate the sport and have a great time, both for the fans and the players. So when in group stage there´s the third game to be played and 2 teams face who are already out (both lost first 2 games etc.) they give it their best nonetheless and usually also field their best players. Because it´s an honour to be one of the qualified teams and a pretty rare possibility for the fans to see their team compete against these other champions.
BlizzCup is a tourney that afaik GOM especially set up as a season closing event where fans get to see the best players from around the world showcasing there talents. That´s why Naniwa-Nestea game was played and in Up&Downs games like this aren´t.


They don't always give it their best though.
Ziggitz
Profile Joined September 2010
United States340 Posts
December 14 2011 10:54 GMT
#448
Does anyone know where on the site to refund your year pass?
Focuspants
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada780 Posts
December 14 2011 10:55 GMT
#449
On December 14 2011 19:32 hahaimhenry wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 19:30 Focuspants wrote:
Im happy with this decision. Anyone in any other sport would have been punished for this action. There are tons of players that would kill someone to get a chance to play a game on that grand of a stage vs. a player like Nestea. Im a fan of Hero, and it was breaking my heart watching him not play his best. But he still tried. You could see how upset he was, but he handled it like a pro, took his lumps, and still PLAYED the game, because thats what he signed up for. We pay money to watch the tournament, not to watch someone not give a shit. If this happened at a pro sporting event, fans would be outraged. The fact that people support his behaviour is completely mind boggling.

I think the punishment is very fit for what he did.


You're from Canada, I bet you watch hockey like I do. When has a team in the NHL gotten punished for not playing their best players? If you watch basketball, teams seeded in the playoffs start playing their B-teamers near the end of the season 'cause it doesn't matter anymore. The NBA doesn't punish them for this.


Equating what he did to playing B teamers is a terrible analogy. Those B teamers have something to prove. They push hard, try to win, play for pride, play for the fans. You do realize we essentially allow them to do what they do. if nobody watched, or paid money, their job wouldnt exist.

Probe rushing would be more like a hockey team getting the puck at the opening faceoff, putting it in their own net, and skating off the ice, then saying the game didnt mean anything who cares. Any PROFESSIONAL athlete should realize, that even if they dont give a shit, they owe it to the fans, sponsors, their team, and the sport, to play the game. If I went to a Leafs game (I live in Toronto) and somethign like this happened, i would be outraged, as would the whole city, as would the league.
bluQ
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Germany1724 Posts
December 14 2011 10:55 GMT
#450
On December 14 2011 19:53 Kiarip wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 19:51 Demonace34 wrote:
On December 14 2011 19:42 Kiarip wrote:
On December 14 2011 19:41 Demonace34 wrote:
On December 14 2011 19:35 Neelia wrote:
On December 14 2011 19:14 Grettin wrote:
On December 14 2011 19:12 PET wrote:
Ok. I'm curious.

What strategies are for GOM ... ok? Is it ok to do a 6 pool? Is it ok to take 4 drones and attack? We clearly see we can't probe rush ...

Soon we will see that the minimum game requirement is 30 minutes and we get 15 minutes to "evolve" like playing on Big Game Hunters 10 years ago.


Do you understand that you can't win with a strategy like probe rush in a competition like GSL. You might not win straight-up with 6pooling, but you can follow it up and win. That is the difference between these.


Do you think you can win a GSL match with Nexus first in PvP? I'm quite certain that the chances to succeed with nexus first is about as high as the 7 probe rush. Does anyone think HerO should be punished? I don't think so.


The difference is that a 7 probe rush is a failure 99.9% of the time, Nexus first against a player who doesn't scout can actually work and be a strategy. 12 drone rush actually can work on Steppes of War back in the day, the difference is that the player doing the drone rush is trying to win, the 7 probe rush is saying, "fuck this tournament, see ya later".

probe rush against a player that doesn't micro can also win.


Okay, so you are saying that if GSL is a joke competition(without the other person microing) you can win... So in this case, GSL says, Naniwa has disrespected the tournament and isn't fit to be a competitor because the tournament is suppose to be the best in the world. If you put out a product and people are paying to watch the best players in SCII, why would you let someone throw a game on purpose? It is one thing to just FF or make an excuse, it is another thing to worker rush and GG.


Um... that's great. How about we play some games ZvP and PvP... I'm not a super high grandmaster GSL level player, but I bet you that I will win not only 100% of the games where you 7 probe rush me in ZvP, but I will also beat you in 100% of the games where you Nexus first in PvP...

and yet somehow Hero didn't get punished for his Nexus first.

Two good reasons why he didn't get punished: He is korean. He is cuter than Nani. Aren't those totally legit reasons? No?
www.twitch.tv/bluquh (PoE, Starbow, HS)
Xax
Profile Joined December 2003
475 Posts
December 14 2011 10:55 GMT
#451
On December 14 2011 19:47 Hagg wrote:
To quote another poster:
Gom should have been professional about being professional.
Naniwa probably deserved some kind of punishment, but GOM handled it more like the average butthurt toddler would than an international league. The justification given (the rule) is WAY too vague, and the personal attack upon Naniwa was dispicable.


The funny thing is that the community is bashing Gom for something someone vaguely translated on twitter. Maybe wait for a proper press release with non-lost-in-translation-wording.
Remb
Profile Joined August 2011
United States190 Posts
December 14 2011 10:56 GMT
#452
On December 14 2011 19:54 Ziggitz wrote:
Does anyone know where on the site to refund your year pass?


I think you'll have to e-mail someone. Not sure who though, or if they will respond to you.
A virtuous act is performed habitually, and not once from incentive alone.
zestzorb
Profile Joined August 2010
Thailand776 Posts
December 14 2011 10:56 GMT
#453
On December 14 2011 19:53 Clearout wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 19:49 zestzorb wrote:
On December 14 2011 19:48 Clearout wrote:
On December 14 2011 19:45 zestzorb wrote:
On December 14 2011 19:43 Weemoed wrote:
On December 14 2011 19:42 zestzorb wrote:
On December 14 2011 18:38 CryingPoo wrote:
Mr.Chae has announced that they made Code S seeds for a professional minded pro-gamer not for an amateur prize money hunter.


Very well put by Mr. Chae


So, Stephano should not be in Code S as well then? He only cares about money (and I love him).


Stephano didn't do something like Naniwa did. If he did that, yes he shouldn't be in code S.
Actually someone posted in one of the other threads that Stephano did throw games in the group stages of DH(?) against Cloud when he couldn't make the group. Those games actually meant something as well. He did a 6pool two times in a row or something?
Don't quote me on this


6 pools win you games. 7 probe rushes don't.
If you intend to lose, what difference does strategy used make?


How do you know Stephano intended to lose?
polarwolf
Profile Blog Joined February 2006
924 Posts
December 14 2011 10:56 GMT
#454
Thanks Naniwa for putting the foreign community in a bad light with your selfish and foolish behaviour. It's a Korean tournament and if you go to Korea in order to play StarCraft 2 professionaly, you should show some respect for the host's country culture and values.

Also I think Naniwa is a coward, he should have played the game against Nestea for pride, there is a huge rivalry between them, but I think he might have been too afraid to lose and pretend to not care.

I am glad that joke of a character got this coming.

Vod.kaholic
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1052 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-14 10:57:02
December 14 2011 10:56 GMT
#455
On December 14 2011 19:22 SilverLeagueElite wrote:
He kinda put Gom in a hard position. Punish Naniwa, foreign fans get butthurt. Don't punish him, Koreans get butthurt. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.


This is probably one of the best summations of the whole incident. Throwing tournament games is beyond unacceptable in the Korean pro-gaming mentality, and given that GSL is a Korean tournament, I don't think all the "oh but it was a worthless game so whatever" arguments are valid. If you look at it that way, you're not considering this from the other perspective.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do, don't shit on their porches and act all surprised when they kick you out.
._. \: |: /: .-. :\ :| :/ ._. They see me rolling...
EchoZ
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Japan5041 Posts
December 14 2011 10:56 GMT
#456
Strict punishment, but that's just how korean culture is.
Dear Sixsmith...
n0ise
Profile Joined April 2010
3452 Posts
December 14 2011 10:56 GMT
#457
On December 14 2011 19:53 VAGZ wrote:
I think this is actually good for Naniwa in order for him to change his behaviour, maybe he will learn his lesson now. So unnecessary of him to forfeit a game like that in the first place...


Honestly, this would be the only good thing to come out of this. But if history is any indication, 0% chance of this to happen.

All in all, harsh but correct decision by Gom.
bluQ
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Germany1724 Posts
December 14 2011 10:56 GMT
#458
On December 14 2011 19:55 Focuspants wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 19:32 hahaimhenry wrote:
On December 14 2011 19:30 Focuspants wrote:
Im happy with this decision. Anyone in any other sport would have been punished for this action. There are tons of players that would kill someone to get a chance to play a game on that grand of a stage vs. a player like Nestea. Im a fan of Hero, and it was breaking my heart watching him not play his best. But he still tried. You could see how upset he was, but he handled it like a pro, took his lumps, and still PLAYED the game, because thats what he signed up for. We pay money to watch the tournament, not to watch someone not give a shit. If this happened at a pro sporting event, fans would be outraged. The fact that people support his behaviour is completely mind boggling.

I think the punishment is very fit for what he did.


You're from Canada, I bet you watch hockey like I do. When has a team in the NHL gotten punished for not playing their best players? If you watch basketball, teams seeded in the playoffs start playing their B-teamers near the end of the season 'cause it doesn't matter anymore. The NBA doesn't punish them for this.


Equating what he did to playing B teamers is a terrible analogy. Those B teamers have something to prove. They push hard, try to win, play for pride, play for the fans. You do realize we essentially allow them to do what they do. if nobody watched, or paid money, their job wouldnt exist.

Probe rushing would be more like a hockey team getting the puck at the opening faceoff, putting it in their own net, and skating off the ice, then saying the game didnt mean anything who cares. Any PROFESSIONAL athlete should realize, that even if they dont give a shit, they owe it to the fans, sponsors, their team, and the sport, to play the game. If I went to a Leafs game (I live in Toronto) and somethign like this happened, i would be outraged, as would the whole city, as would the league.

God ... stop putting up WRONG anaologies:
Scoring a goal on your own side = attacking your own buildings/killing your own units ...
www.twitch.tv/bluquh (PoE, Starbow, HS)
Hren
Profile Joined April 2011
Slovenia86 Posts
December 14 2011 10:57 GMT
#459
I almost got the feeling, that this isn`t just about Naniwa and the question of professionalism, but more of a East versus West struggle. If some potential organized boycotting would make any impact, I would definitely join it.
babo213
Profile Joined January 2011
United States266 Posts
December 14 2011 10:57 GMT
#460
On December 14 2011 19:55 bluQ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 19:53 Kiarip wrote:
On December 14 2011 19:51 Demonace34 wrote:
On December 14 2011 19:42 Kiarip wrote:
On December 14 2011 19:41 Demonace34 wrote:
On December 14 2011 19:35 Neelia wrote:
On December 14 2011 19:14 Grettin wrote:
On December 14 2011 19:12 PET wrote:
Ok. I'm curious.

What strategies are for GOM ... ok? Is it ok to do a 6 pool? Is it ok to take 4 drones and attack? We clearly see we can't probe rush ...

Soon we will see that the minimum game requirement is 30 minutes and we get 15 minutes to "evolve" like playing on Big Game Hunters 10 years ago.


Do you understand that you can't win with a strategy like probe rush in a competition like GSL. You might not win straight-up with 6pooling, but you can follow it up and win. That is the difference between these.


Do you think you can win a GSL match with Nexus first in PvP? I'm quite certain that the chances to succeed with nexus first is about as high as the 7 probe rush. Does anyone think HerO should be punished? I don't think so.


The difference is that a 7 probe rush is a failure 99.9% of the time, Nexus first against a player who doesn't scout can actually work and be a strategy. 12 drone rush actually can work on Steppes of War back in the day, the difference is that the player doing the drone rush is trying to win, the 7 probe rush is saying, "fuck this tournament, see ya later".

probe rush against a player that doesn't micro can also win.


Okay, so you are saying that if GSL is a joke competition(without the other person microing) you can win... So in this case, GSL says, Naniwa has disrespected the tournament and isn't fit to be a competitor because the tournament is suppose to be the best in the world. If you put out a product and people are paying to watch the best players in SCII, why would you let someone throw a game on purpose? It is one thing to just FF or make an excuse, it is another thing to worker rush and GG.


Um... that's great. How about we play some games ZvP and PvP... I'm not a super high grandmaster GSL level player, but I bet you that I will win not only 100% of the games where you 7 probe rush me in ZvP, but I will also beat you in 100% of the games where you Nexus first in PvP...

and yet somehow Hero didn't get punished for his Nexus first.

Two good reasons why he didn't get punished: He is korean. He is cuter than Nani. Aren't those totally legit reasons? No?


Except on CBtS Killer tried that as well in a PvP. Had Hero got the probe he would have been fine.
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