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Please keep this thread on topic. It's ok to discuss the professionalism of what happened, but don't turn this thread into personal attacks or it will be closed. |
On December 14 2011 10:20 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 09:56 ThePurist wrote:
A pro-gamer's job is to entertain viewers. A pro gamer's job is not only restricted to winning tournaments. Fans getting to enjoy great games between great players is not a side effect but what drives tournaments/sponsorships. I think it has nothing to do with Eastern and Western culture. In Eastern culture it's not always considered professional to always put forth effort. People do not think the impetus is on the players to create great games. In Western culture, the pressure is on the tournament organizers to get funds by bringing in more viewership and mass appeal (luring them with great games, prestige, etc).
pro players ---> sponsorships ---> viewership
That's your opinion of a pro-gamer's job. IMO, it depends on the situation and where the pro-gamer is getting their income. Someone like Destiny, I would argue his job is to entertain viewers. That's because (I assume) his income is from streaming, moreso than winning tournaments or sponsorships, or team salary. Naniwa has said he left Complexity, at least in significant part, because they focused less on tournament winnings and more on streaming and publicity than he was comfortable with. He specifically mentioned the contrast between his MLG results to Catz' stream viewership. He said Complexity saw them comparably and Naniwa disagreed. So, it's clear Naniwa is not concerned with that side of the business, which is fine. He wants to win tournaments. That's what he wants. He is a pro-gamer because he earns his living playing Starcraft 2. If viewers find his play entertaining, that's a bonus, but it's not his job. Winning is. For others, they have other priorities, and they can all find themselves under the umbrella of the "pro-gamer" moniker.
Do you not realize the whole budding esports industry stems from fans?
it's viewership that pulls money for "tournament winnings" which the winners get.
Where do you think the salaries of pros and tournament winnings comes from? thin air?
To make myself clear, without the fans there would be no OSL/MSL/GSL, so there wouldn't be any "winnings" for any "pro-gamer" to win. Thus, to say "he doesn't care to entertain but wants to win" - it's flawed because without entertaining there would be nothing to win.
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Each viewer/fan has his or her own goals, priorities, and ideas of how things should be in a spectator sport. I don't see how you can imagine that you alone should be able to dictate whether they are correct or not in their individual beliefs.
I personally believe that it was an unprofessional move for a professional player to make. I think that there were many viewers looking forward to being entertained, and they were disappointed by his actions. It seemed as if his actions were purely geared towards his own interest in not wanting to play the game. My belief is that professionals should have their fans in mind when making these decisions.
You can do whatever you want within the rules, but you have have to accept the consequences. You can't expect to be automatically forgiven because you feel it is your decision, and you certainly can't blame viewers/fans for their own opinions.
(I'm not saying Naniwa is responding this way, I'm more speaking to the replies in this thread which attack viewers/fans for their opinions. I think it extremely unlikely that Naniwa will respond similar to them, and I'm certain it'll be some sort of apology, or showing of some regret, or just anything to try to comfort fans he may have disappointed.)
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Many people talk about Idra forfeiting matches. It's a dick move as far as I am concerned, and any tourney where it happens, organizers should look into possible ways of punishing, be it Idra or Naniwa or somebody else.
For the record, in NASL season 1, many players forfeited/didn't show up. One of them, incidentally, was PainUser. I lost a lot of respect I had to PainUser after that.
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On December 14 2011 10:20 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 09:56 ThePurist wrote:
A pro-gamer's job is to entertain viewers. A pro gamer's job is not only restricted to winning tournaments. Fans getting to enjoy great games between great players is not a side effect but what drives tournaments/sponsorships. I think it has nothing to do with Eastern and Western culture. In Eastern culture it's not always considered professional to always put forth effort. People do not think the impetus is on the players to create great games. In Western culture, the pressure is on the tournament organizers to get funds by bringing in more viewership and mass appeal (luring them with great games, prestige, etc).
pro players ---> sponsorships ---> viewership
That's your opinion of a pro-gamer's job. IMO, it depends on the situation and where the pro-gamer is getting their income. Someone like Destiny, I would argue his job is to entertain viewers. That's because (I assume) his income is from streaming, moreso than winning tournaments or sponsorships, or team salary. Naniwa has said he left Complexity, at least in significant part, because they focused less on tournament winnings and more on streaming and publicity than he was comfortable with. He specifically mentioned the contrast between his MLG results to Catz' stream viewership. He said Complexity saw them comparably and Naniwa disagreed. So, it's clear Naniwa is not concerned with that side of the business, which is fine. He wants to win tournaments. That's what he wants. He is a pro-gamer because he earns his living playing Starcraft 2. If viewers find his play entertaining, that's a bonus, but it's not his job. Winning is. For others, they have other priorities, and they can all find themselves under the umbrella of the "pro-gamer" moniker.
The definition of a pro-gamer's job is whatever is defined by the person who pays his bills (and the contract signed between them). If Naniwa did not belong to a team then you'd be right. But he does. He made himself look like garbage and that reflects on his team. I'd be extremely surprised to see if this kind of clause is not included on player contracts in the future.
If I was his manager, there would be severe repercussions for this kind of unprofessional and immature behaviour. While Naniwa is a mere 21 years of age, he should still be more aware of the world that exists outside of his tiny perception of what it means to be a progamer.
I completely understand his perspective on the situation; the problem is only that he did not see the perspective of everyone else.
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It's not about whether the games had any meaning or not. It's about being a professional and taking your job seriously.
Do you think the last place sports teams at the end of the season when they have been eliminated from the playoffs just give up? Of course not. It's they're damn job to play the game and by all means they should play the season out because it is the right thing to do.
After this incident, I've lost all respect for Naniwa
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On December 14 2011 11:24 SkimGuy wrote:
It's not about whether the games had any meaning or not. It's about being a professional and taking your job seriously.
Do you think the last place sports teams at the end of the season when they have been eliminated from the playoffs just give up? Of course not. It's they're damn job to play the game and by all means they should play the season out because it is the right thing to do.
After this incident, I've lost all respect for Naniwa
Taking his job seriously? The tournament didn't take his job seriously!
"Here, play this game for funsies and make sure you put your heart into it. There's no reward for it but do it anyway."
GOM gave Naniwa busy work and people are complaining that he didn't enjoy it?!
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If only Naniwa thought of the game just as a show match and played the game normally. IMO, that is why GOM allowed the match in the first place. And I think Nestea thought that its just for show as well coz he even microed his drones.
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On December 14 2011 11:27 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 11:24 SkimGuy wrote:
It's not about whether the games had any meaning or not. It's about being a professional and taking your job seriously.
Do you think the last place sports teams at the end of the season when they have been eliminated from the playoffs just give up? Of course not. It's they're damn job to play the game and by all means they should play the season out because it is the right thing to do.
After this incident, I've lost all respect for Naniwa Taking his job seriously? The tournament didn't take his job seriously! "Here, play this game for funsies and make sure you put your heart into it. There's no reward for it but do it anyway." GOM gave Naniwa busy work and people are complaining that he didn't enjoy it?!
Did you forget that GOM pays the players?
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On December 14 2011 11:32 EnSky wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 11:27 Klondikebar wrote:On December 14 2011 11:24 SkimGuy wrote:
It's not about whether the games had any meaning or not. It's about being a professional and taking your job seriously.
Do you think the last place sports teams at the end of the season when they have been eliminated from the playoffs just give up? Of course not. It's they're damn job to play the game and by all means they should play the season out because it is the right thing to do.
After this incident, I've lost all respect for Naniwa Taking his job seriously? The tournament didn't take his job seriously! "Here, play this game for funsies and make sure you put your heart into it. There's no reward for it but do it anyway." GOM gave Naniwa busy work and people are complaining that he didn't enjoy it?! Did you forget that GOM pays the players?
Not to do busy work. Really, people are claiming that Naniwa isn't taking his job seriously. Well GOM gave him busy work. Made him play games just for the sake of playing games. The only people here who are allowed to be upset are the people who gladly walk into their office every day and thank their boss for any busy work they get.
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On December 14 2011 11:32 EnSky wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 11:27 Klondikebar wrote:On December 14 2011 11:24 SkimGuy wrote:
It's not about whether the games had any meaning or not. It's about being a professional and taking your job seriously.
Do you think the last place sports teams at the end of the season when they have been eliminated from the playoffs just give up? Of course not. It's they're damn job to play the game and by all means they should play the season out because it is the right thing to do.
After this incident, I've lost all respect for Naniwa Taking his job seriously? The tournament didn't take his job seriously! "Here, play this game for funsies and make sure you put your heart into it. There's no reward for it but do it anyway." GOM gave Naniwa busy work and people are complaining that he didn't enjoy it?! Did you forget that GOM pays the players?
Not for the last, completely useless game, which is the only game Naniwa forfeited thus leaving your argument invalid.
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On December 14 2011 11:35 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 11:32 EnSky wrote:On December 14 2011 11:27 Klondikebar wrote:On December 14 2011 11:24 SkimGuy wrote:
It's not about whether the games had any meaning or not. It's about being a professional and taking your job seriously.
Do you think the last place sports teams at the end of the season when they have been eliminated from the playoffs just give up? Of course not. It's they're damn job to play the game and by all means they should play the season out because it is the right thing to do.
After this incident, I've lost all respect for Naniwa Taking his job seriously? The tournament didn't take his job seriously! "Here, play this game for funsies and make sure you put your heart into it. There's no reward for it but do it anyway." GOM gave Naniwa busy work and people are complaining that he didn't enjoy it?! Did you forget that GOM pays the players? Not to do busy work. Really, people are claiming that Naniwa isn't taking his job seriously. Well GOM gave him busy work. Made him play games just for the sake of playing games. The only people here who are allowed to be upset are the people who gladly walk into their office every day and thank their boss for any busy work they get.
wtf.. if you are getting paid, you do whatever they ask you to do. your entire thought process is just so wrong i dont even know where to start
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On December 14 2011 11:27 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 11:24 SkimGuy wrote:
It's not about whether the games had any meaning or not. It's about being a professional and taking your job seriously.
Do you think the last place sports teams at the end of the season when they have been eliminated from the playoffs just give up? Of course not. It's they're damn job to play the game and by all means they should play the season out because it is the right thing to do.
After this incident, I've lost all respect for Naniwa Taking his job seriously? The tournament didn't take his job seriously! "Here, play this game for funsies and make sure you put your heart into it. There's no reward for it but do it anyway." GOM gave Naniwa busy work and people are complaining that he didn't enjoy it?!
He agreed with the rules when he joined it.
I wish i could walk away form my job when i didn't feel like it and come up with an excuse "but it was busywork".
Of course, first i spit in my coworkers face since that is basically what Nani did to Nestea.
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Although i think the Koreans may be overreacting slighty - Naniwa needs to grow up a bit. He reminds me of Major sometimes with the way he acts and things he says. Have the foresight to realize where you are and the culture surrounding you. You don't just "lol probe rush" a winner of multiple GSLs in his own country.
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Nani is too emotional , but not in a good way. Those 3 games he played were very very close, so it seemed he just said screw it and went for this stupid probe rush. He really needs to work on his professional ethic, this is not what champion would do... This is disrespect to fans, producers, staff, and NesTea. Saddest thing that Nani represents foreigner pro players in Korea and what kind of image is that?????
To quote MC :
"@oGsMC: I was really lost for words after watching today's game. Does he even know what the word "pro" is? My role model for professionalism is White-Ra. He really loves his fans, and doesn't give up his games until the end, and he's very mannered towards everyone. Does anyone dislike White-Ra?
I hope Naniwa can look at White-Ra and change his mentality. I don't think it's right to do that, not considering your opponent at all. I wish he'd think about how he would have felt if I had gone 3-0 and confirmed #1 in my group, and he was 0-3, and I thought that since I'm 1st place nothing matters and just GG'd out of my game against him.
Well, if you there's no big deal because there's no money on the the line, then I can't say anything to that, you're just not a pro. After seeing Naniwa, I thought HerO was all the more awesome for being so upset about losing his games yesterday."
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I don't care, he can do whatever he wants he doesn't owe ME anything.
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On December 14 2011 11:38 Govou wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 11:35 Klondikebar wrote:On December 14 2011 11:32 EnSky wrote:On December 14 2011 11:27 Klondikebar wrote:On December 14 2011 11:24 SkimGuy wrote:
It's not about whether the games had any meaning or not. It's about being a professional and taking your job seriously.
Do you think the last place sports teams at the end of the season when they have been eliminated from the playoffs just give up? Of course not. It's they're damn job to play the game and by all means they should play the season out because it is the right thing to do.
After this incident, I've lost all respect for Naniwa Taking his job seriously? The tournament didn't take his job seriously! "Here, play this game for funsies and make sure you put your heart into it. There's no reward for it but do it anyway." GOM gave Naniwa busy work and people are complaining that he didn't enjoy it?! Did you forget that GOM pays the players? Not to do busy work. Really, people are claiming that Naniwa isn't taking his job seriously. Well GOM gave him busy work. Made him play games just for the sake of playing games. The only people here who are allowed to be upset are the people who gladly walk into their office every day and thank their boss for any busy work they get. wtf.. if you are getting paid, you do whatever they ask you to do. your entire thought process is just so wrong i dont even know where to start
No job pays you to do busy work. Also, as the poster above pointed out, GOM wasn't paying Naniwa for that game.
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On December 14 2011 11:38 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 11:27 Klondikebar wrote:On December 14 2011 11:24 SkimGuy wrote:
It's not about whether the games had any meaning or not. It's about being a professional and taking your job seriously.
Do you think the last place sports teams at the end of the season when they have been eliminated from the playoffs just give up? Of course not. It's they're damn job to play the game and by all means they should play the season out because it is the right thing to do.
After this incident, I've lost all respect for Naniwa Taking his job seriously? The tournament didn't take his job seriously! "Here, play this game for funsies and make sure you put your heart into it. There's no reward for it but do it anyway." GOM gave Naniwa busy work and people are complaining that he didn't enjoy it?! He agreed with the rules when he joined it. I wish i could walk away form my job when i didn't feel like it and come up with an excuse "but it was busywork".
You're right, he agreed to the rules. Tell me, what rule did he break?
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On December 14 2011 11:35 grobo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 11:32 EnSky wrote:On December 14 2011 11:27 Klondikebar wrote:On December 14 2011 11:24 SkimGuy wrote:
It's not about whether the games had any meaning or not. It's about being a professional and taking your job seriously.
Do you think the last place sports teams at the end of the season when they have been eliminated from the playoffs just give up? Of course not. It's they're damn job to play the game and by all means they should play the season out because it is the right thing to do.
After this incident, I've lost all respect for Naniwa Taking his job seriously? The tournament didn't take his job seriously! "Here, play this game for funsies and make sure you put your heart into it. There's no reward for it but do it anyway." GOM gave Naniwa busy work and people are complaining that he didn't enjoy it?! Did you forget that GOM pays the players? Not for the last, completely useless game, which is the only game Naniwa forfeited thus leaving your argument invalid.
GOM pays about 863 dollars to players who drop out of the Group stages. So they are paying that player 215 dollars per game (4 games total). So who do you think got scammed? The viewers? The players? Or GOM?
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On December 14 2011 11:41 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 11:38 Assirra wrote:On December 14 2011 11:27 Klondikebar wrote:On December 14 2011 11:24 SkimGuy wrote:
It's not about whether the games had any meaning or not. It's about being a professional and taking your job seriously.
Do you think the last place sports teams at the end of the season when they have been eliminated from the playoffs just give up? Of course not. It's they're damn job to play the game and by all means they should play the season out because it is the right thing to do.
After this incident, I've lost all respect for Naniwa Taking his job seriously? The tournament didn't take his job seriously! "Here, play this game for funsies and make sure you put your heart into it. There's no reward for it but do it anyway." GOM gave Naniwa busy work and people are complaining that he didn't enjoy it?! He agreed with the rules when he joined it. I wish i could walk away form my job when i didn't feel like it and come up with an excuse "but it was busywork". You're right, he agreed to the rules. Tell me, what rule did he break?
That you play your matches?
No, sitting in front of your monitor, once clicking to opponent base and then lifting your hands from the keyboard is NOT playing your matches.
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I think that even though Naniwa couldn't do anything to change his OR Nestea's standing in the tournament, he still should have looked at it as a learning opportunity. Just pretend that it is a practice game. At the very least he should have gone for some sort of crazy strategy like a Mothership rush to give the fans a fun game to watch. Just probe rushing Nestea is so uninspired and boring that of course the fans aren't going to like it.
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EPT
