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Please keep this thread on topic. It's ok to discuss the professionalism of what happened, but don't turn this thread into personal attacks or it will be closed. |
edit:quoted wrong guy
You're ignoring the fact that reputation and sportsmanship is part of every professional sport. Busywork suggests playing the game is meaningless, when in fact it has a great deal of value as part of Naniwas reputation. Naniwas own team tried to hype the match, therefor Naniwa actually hurt the reputation of his team (not a desirable trait to have in a player who is also not winning games).
In order for a player who isn't winning games to earn fans or respect, they have to play games. Believe it or not, beating Nestea at least deserves some respect (especially relative to throwing the game). By throwing the game he has clearly disappointed a large segment of the starcraft 2 community, a community he is apart of. Whether or not Naniwa personally valued the game is irrelevant, because others DID value it.
I don't mean to say that Naniwa doesn't have to right to throw a game, he absolutely does. What I mean to say is that Naniwa made the incorrect assumption that playing a game against Nestea, in effectively a showmatch format, had no value for him. When infact as evidence suggests, playing the game had more value than, at the very least, throwing the game.
I'd even go so far as to say what Naniwa did is understandable, however, if I had the choice of a player who does his best, shows outstanding character and is always admirabley good at the game, vs someone who is merely good at the game, I would choose the former.
In conclusion, if you aren't showing results as a player, it's in your best interest to at least entertain those people who paid to watch a game, and especially if you are part of a dedicated team that is a huge part of the starcraft 2 community, and you also have a history against the person you are playing against, you'd better damn well put your best possible effort forward, or be prepared for the backlash and loss of support that comes with throwing the game.
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On December 14 2011 12:08 Tor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 11:53 EnSky wrote:On December 14 2011 11:49 Klondikebar wrote:On December 14 2011 11:46 Govou wrote:On December 14 2011 11:40 Klondikebar wrote:On December 14 2011 11:38 Govou wrote:On December 14 2011 11:35 Klondikebar wrote:On December 14 2011 11:32 EnSky wrote:On December 14 2011 11:27 Klondikebar wrote:On December 14 2011 11:24 SkimGuy wrote:
It's not about whether the games had any meaning or not. It's about being a professional and taking your job seriously.
Do you think the last place sports teams at the end of the season when they have been eliminated from the playoffs just give up? Of course not. It's they're damn job to play the game and by all means they should play the season out because it is the right thing to do.
After this incident, I've lost all respect for Naniwa Taking his job seriously? The tournament didn't take his job seriously! "Here, play this game for funsies and make sure you put your heart into it. There's no reward for it but do it anyway." GOM gave Naniwa busy work and people are complaining that he didn't enjoy it?! Did you forget that GOM pays the players? Not to do busy work. Really, people are claiming that Naniwa isn't taking his job seriously. Well GOM gave him busy work. Made him play games just for the sake of playing games. The only people here who are allowed to be upset are the people who gladly walk into their office every day and thank their boss for any busy work they get. wtf.. if you are getting paid, you do whatever they ask you to do. your entire thought process is just so wrong i dont even know where to start No job pays you to do busy work. Also, as the poster above pointed out, GOM wasn't paying Naniwa for that game. man I"m not even gonna touch this. I hope you find the work like that. Because to most people, doing the job is doing things whatever is asked to do. Tell me about a job where you do busy work...I'm an IT analyst so I do all ad-hoc reports with an express purpose. And in fact the CPO of our firm has made it very clear that we are NOT to fulfill requests that don't have an express purpose. I'm actually legitimately curious about these jobs that require you to do busy work. I'm confused why you think that was busy work. No matter how the matches turns out GOM will always pay the same amount for the same number of games (4 games for players who drop out of the Group Stages). You're ignoring the fact that reputation and sportsmanship is part of every professional sport. Busywork suggests playing the game is meaningless, when in fact it has a great deal of value as part of Naniwas reputation. Naniwas own team tried to hype the match, therefor Naniwa actually hurt the reputation of his team (not a desirable trait to have in a player who is also not winning games). In order for a player who isn't winning games to earn fans or respect, they have to play games. Believe it or not, beating Nestea at least deserves some respect (especially relative to throwing the game). By throwing the game he has clearly disappointed a large segment of the starcraft 2 community, a community he is apart of. Whether or not Naniwa personally valued the game is irrelevant, because others DID value it. I don't mean to say that Naniwa doesn't have to right to throw a game, he absolutely does. What I mean to say is that Naniwa made the incorrect assumption that playing a game against Nestea, in effectively a showmatch format, had no value for him. When infact as evidence suggests, playing the game had more value than, at the very least, throwing the game. I'd even go so far as to say what Naniwa did is understandable, however, if I had the choice of a player who does his best, shows outstanding character and is always admirabley good at the game, vs someone who is merely good at the game, I would choose the former. In conclusion, if you aren't showing results as a player, it's in your best interest to at least entertain those people who paid to watch a game, and especially if you are part of a dedicated team that is a huge part of the starcraft 2 community, and you also have a history against the person you are playing against, you'd better damn well put your best possible effort forward, or be prepared for the backlash and loss of support that comes with throwing the game.
Are you sure you quoted the right guy? 
What I meant was he owed GOM to play the last game coz they payed him to do so. It ain't busy work if you get payed.
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I think this backlash is warranted. If the premier tournament personally invites you, flies you out to korea, offers to help with room and board, you do NOT make a mockery of the competition. Especially not in a broadcasted match.
Essentially, Naniwa downplayed the value of the tournament and belittled the casters, camera crew, hosts, production crew, audience, and everyone involved in the creation of the match. Just saying "fuck it" is easy for yourself if you have nothing to gain, but you need to understand that a lot of people worked to make this happen. The least you can do is not make a mockery out of it.
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On December 14 2011 12:07 Arkless wrote:
It makes me sick how spoiled someone can be. You can't play one showmatch for your fans? Obviously this was a match everyone wanted to see regardless of tournament standing. MLB, NHL, NFL, all have pointless matches near the end of a season for some teams, knowing they won't make it to the playoffs. But those games are still played to there best knowing it won't matter. Why? Because they are professionals, Naniwa obviously is not a professional. All I hear about him is some form of drama, or how he has problems with other teams for being an ass hole. I don't know why people keep supporting someone who constantly spits in your face.
There is no room, for people as weak minded as he showed in professional esports, or pro anything period.
idra has a huge pool of fans...i can never be a fan of idra of obvious reasons (bm+) but people have different taste and i accept that. and there are a lot of people that couldn't care less about professionalism.
but it does hurt when people are defending naniwa's actions. no matter how you look at it, he lacked respect towards the people involved for his own selfish reasons. his own way of life i guess and i dont blame him but the hatred was generated by the choice he made following his way of doing things.
what he did was selfish, there's no other way to look at it. it isn't against the rules nor is it a crime, but its looked down upon.
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If the match didn't matter, why did QxG (Naniwa's team) hype it up?
I think we need a good answer to this question before we can even entertain arguments about a match not mattering somehow meaning you throw professionalism out the window. A glorified show match is still a match that has a huge imapct on what people around the world think about you and your team.
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I hope Boxer will never have to play against Naniwa. It'd be an insult for Lim Yo-hwan, who devoted his entire life and passion to entertain the fans, having to be in the same game against a selfish immature player like Naniwa.
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On December 14 2011 12:39 On_Slaught wrote:
If the match didn't matter, why did QxG (Naniwa's team) hype it up?
I think we need a good answer to this question before we can even entertain arguments about a match not mattering somehow meaning you throw professionalism out the window. A glorified show match is still a match that has a huge imapct on what people around the world think about you and your team.
It didn't matter in the context of the competition. Naniwa is player who strives hard to be the best player in the world. Which is why a match for the fourth place in the group is meaningless to him. Remember, though you may see rivalry between naniwa and nestea, naniwa may not.
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On December 14 2011 12:39 On_Slaught wrote:
If the match didn't matter, why did QxG (Naniwa's team) hype it up?
I think we need a good answer to this question before we can even entertain arguments about a match not mattering somehow meaning you throw professionalism out the window. A glorified show match is still a match that has a huge imapct on what people around the world think about you and your team.
I believe they were hoping.
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On December 14 2011 12:46 mrdx wrote:
I hope Boxer will never have to play against Naniwa. It'd be an insult for Lim Yo-hwan, who devoted his entire life and passion to entertain the fans, having to be in the same game against a selfish immature player like Naniwa.
He devoted his life to winning, when he could no longer do that, it became a matter of entertainment. Would a player out to entertain bunker-rush every game in a final? Sorry to pick on you, but this deifying is just too much.
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On December 14 2011 12:48 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 12:39 On_Slaught wrote:
If the match didn't matter, why did QxG (Naniwa's team) hype it up?
I think we need a good answer to this question before we can even entertain arguments about a match not mattering somehow meaning you throw professionalism out the window. A glorified show match is still a match that has a huge imapct on what people around the world think about you and your team. It didn't matter in the context of the competition. Naniwa is player who strives hard to be the best player in the world. Which is why a match for the fourth place in the group is meaningless to him. Remember, though you may see rivalry between naniwa and nestea, naniwa may not.
That's why people are saying naniwa is selfish. He only acts according to his own benefit/gain. It's meaningless to him, but what about gomtv, the essence of competition, and the thousands of people who would die to be in his spot right now, playing against nestea on tv? He cheapens the privilege of sitting in the booth and being a pro-gamer.
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lmao at choyas comment this from a guy who asked to coin flip in pvp....
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On December 14 2011 13:05 W2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 12:48 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 12:39 On_Slaught wrote:
If the match didn't matter, why did QxG (Naniwa's team) hype it up?
I think we need a good answer to this question before we can even entertain arguments about a match not mattering somehow meaning you throw professionalism out the window. A glorified show match is still a match that has a huge imapct on what people around the world think about you and your team. It didn't matter in the context of the competition. Naniwa is player who strives hard to be the best player in the world. Which is why a match for the fourth place in the group is meaningless to him. Remember, though you may see rivalry between naniwa and nestea, naniwa may not. That's why people are saying naniwa is selfish. He only acts according to his own benefit/gain. It's meaningless to him, but what about gomtv, the essence of competition, and the thousands of people who would die to be in his spot right now, playing against nestea on tv? He cheapens the privilege of sitting in the booth and being a pro-gamer.
Yea dis was gomtv's star studded tourny to end the year with a bang but naniwa had to be himself n shit on gomtv face. Gomtv is a company who values entertainment. If i were to agree that what naniwa did was right as a progamer i would tink it is fair for gomtv to punish naniwa for outright throwing the game away
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On December 14 2011 13:05 W2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 12:48 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 12:39 On_Slaught wrote:
If the match didn't matter, why did QxG (Naniwa's team) hype it up?
I think we need a good answer to this question before we can even entertain arguments about a match not mattering somehow meaning you throw professionalism out the window. A glorified show match is still a match that has a huge imapct on what people around the world think about you and your team. It didn't matter in the context of the competition. Naniwa is player who strives hard to be the best player in the world. Which is why a match for the fourth place in the group is meaningless to him. Remember, though you may see rivalry between naniwa and nestea, naniwa may not. That's why people are saying naniwa is selfish. He only acts according to his own benefit/gain. It's meaningless to him, but what about gomtv, the essence of competition, and the thousands of people who would die to be in his spot right now, playing against nestea on tv? He cheapens the privilege of sitting in the booth and being a pro-gamer. He acts according to his own perspective, and failing to take into account what some expect of him (clearly, it's a subset of viewers that feel this way) may certainly be said to be selfish. But again, remember that he may not see the situation the way you do. What you're asking is that he 'puts on a show', and plays out the match, for the sake of the viewers. But if to naniwa what is important is to be the best, and to compete for being the best, to pretend-play may be what cheapens the tournament. If what you want is a show for the sake of the show, naniwa probably isn't the right person to ask. You may not like this, but maybe you can understand it.
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On December 14 2011 13:05 W2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 12:48 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 12:39 On_Slaught wrote:
If the match didn't matter, why did QxG (Naniwa's team) hype it up?
I think we need a good answer to this question before we can even entertain arguments about a match not mattering somehow meaning you throw professionalism out the window. A glorified show match is still a match that has a huge imapct on what people around the world think about you and your team. It didn't matter in the context of the competition. Naniwa is player who strives hard to be the best player in the world. Which is why a match for the fourth place in the group is meaningless to him. Remember, though you may see rivalry between naniwa and nestea, naniwa may not. That's why people are saying naniwa is selfish. He only acts according to his own benefit/gain. It's meaningless to him, but what about gomtv, the essence of competition, and the thousands of people who would die to be in his spot right now, playing against nestea on tv? He cheapens the privilege of sitting in the booth and being a pro-gamer.
Why would anyone ever do something which is not in his interest? He plays for himself not for you. Also there was no more competition when he probe rushed, he was out just like Nestea. Be glad he did waste a little less time of your life with that probe rush than with a half-assed game. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like seeing a 6minute game that doesn't change anything in the competition. Also it's a little far-fetched to say he cheapens the privilege of being a pro. He earned his spot and fought his way through to this point. Today he lost, end of story.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
I like what MC had to say. Everyone loves WhiteRa <3
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On December 14 2011 13:09 tab420 wrote:
lmao at choyas comment this from a guy who asked to coin flip in pvp....
Isn't what Choya did during ladder matches and not televised games?
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On December 14 2011 13:24 Ravomat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 13:05 W2 wrote:On December 14 2011 12:48 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 12:39 On_Slaught wrote:
If the match didn't matter, why did QxG (Naniwa's team) hype it up?
I think we need a good answer to this question before we can even entertain arguments about a match not mattering somehow meaning you throw professionalism out the window. A glorified show match is still a match that has a huge imapct on what people around the world think about you and your team. It didn't matter in the context of the competition. Naniwa is player who strives hard to be the best player in the world. Which is why a match for the fourth place in the group is meaningless to him. Remember, though you may see rivalry between naniwa and nestea, naniwa may not. That's why people are saying naniwa is selfish. He only acts according to his own benefit/gain. It's meaningless to him, but what about gomtv, the essence of competition, and the thousands of people who would die to be in his spot right now, playing against nestea on tv? He cheapens the privilege of sitting in the booth and being a pro-gamer. Why would anyone ever do something which is not in his interest? He plays for himself not for you. Also there was no more competition when he probe rushed, he was out just like Nestea. Be glad he did waste a little less time of your life with that probe rush than with a half-assed game. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like seeing a 6minute game that doesn't change anything in the competition. Also it's a little far-fetched to say he cheapens the privilege of being a pro. He earned his spot and fought his way through to this point. Today he lost, end of story.
To answer your "cleverly" worded first question: everybody except Naniwa. (Greg included, even he would not disrespect gomtv that way). Can you think of any single pro who would do what Naniwa did?
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On December 14 2011 13:34 LeopoldStotch wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 13:09 tab420 wrote:
lmao at choyas comment this from a guy who asked to coin flip in pvp.... Isn't what Choya did during ladder matches and not televised games?
There was a time when he would play rock paper scissors to end ladder games faster, are we talking about the same instance?
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On December 14 2011 13:05 W2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 12:48 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 12:39 On_Slaught wrote:
If the match didn't matter, why did QxG (Naniwa's team) hype it up?
I think we need a good answer to this question before we can even entertain arguments about a match not mattering somehow meaning you throw professionalism out the window. A glorified show match is still a match that has a huge imapct on what people around the world think about you and your team. It didn't matter in the context of the competition. Naniwa is player who strives hard to be the best player in the world. Which is why a match for the fourth place in the group is meaningless to him. Remember, though you may see rivalry between naniwa and nestea, naniwa may not. That's why people are saying naniwa is selfish. He only acts according to his own benefit/gain. It's meaningless to him, but what about gomtv, the essence of competition, and the thousands of people who would die to be in his spot right now, playing against nestea on tv? He cheapens the privilege of sitting in the booth and being a pro-gamer.
I would argue that his acts weren't actually selfish, but in fact just ignorance reflecting his overall immaturity and unprofessional attitude. It was actually in his best interest to play the game out to the best of his abilities. He has nothing to lose by playing, whereas he can lose reputation and fanbase and possibly team support all of which leads to him being less sponsorable and therefore less money and less chances to play competitevly. Hopefully not only does Naniwa learn from his mistake, but other players who'd think to display unprofessional attitudes do as well.
Professionalism is rational, people! It is good for a community! It helps Starcraft 2 gain respect as an eSport! And it helps develop your own brand as a player! Unless negative attitude is your brand (see idra) you're best off aiming for respect and professionalism.
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first of saying, i do not like naniwa that much, i think he is a strong player but i dont like his BM
but just on this thing, i actually find myself agree of what he did
even IF he and nestea both told themselves they will try best to play and really try
i do not believe the game will be best from both side
that will not be the "nani vs nestea" epic match that i waited for so many weeks
i in fact AFK from my pc before they start to play and waiting for next match till i heard many noise from my pc
i rather one of them gave up the game and wait for next time maybe in up/down or ro8 in MLG or something important like that
and we all know that one person no way will be nestea
after all, this is a tournament not a show match, which means to me they should only play for win not for show, and it does not matter at all after they already lost
as a viwer, i feel not happy gom still make them play, i fell is wasting my time
so i agree with what naniwa did, even he is one of 3 players that i dont like the most, i still agree of this one thing
(i not try to disrespect anyone in this post just saying how i feel of this ONE thing)
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EPT
