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Please keep this thread on topic. It's ok to discuss the professionalism of what happened, but don't turn this thread into personal attacks or it will be closed. |
On December 14 2011 15:06 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 15:04 TheKK wrote:On December 14 2011 13:14 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 13:05 W2 wrote:On December 14 2011 12:48 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 12:39 On_Slaught wrote:
If the match didn't matter, why did QxG (Naniwa's team) hype it up?
I think we need a good answer to this question before we can even entertain arguments about a match not mattering somehow meaning you throw professionalism out the window. A glorified show match is still a match that has a huge imapct on what people around the world think about you and your team. It didn't matter in the context of the competition. Naniwa is player who strives hard to be the best player in the world. Which is why a match for the fourth place in the group is meaningless to him. Remember, though you may see rivalry between naniwa and nestea, naniwa may not. That's why people are saying naniwa is selfish. He only acts according to his own benefit/gain. It's meaningless to him, but what about gomtv, the essence of competition, and the thousands of people who would die to be in his spot right now, playing against nestea on tv? He cheapens the privilege of sitting in the booth and being a pro-gamer. He acts according to his own perspective, and failing to take into account what some expect of him (clearly, it's a subset of viewers that feel this way) may certainly be said to be selfish. But again, remember that he may not see the situation the way you do. What you're asking is that he 'puts on a show', and plays out the match, for the sake of the viewers. But if to naniwa what is important is to be the best, and to compete for being the best, to pretend-play may be what cheapens the tournament. If what you want is a show for the sake of the show, naniwa probably isn't the right person to ask. You may not like this, but maybe you can understand it. Do you realize why an NHL hockey team can't just simply forfeit a game? There is a lot more than just the viewers that relies on having a show. At the professional level, (a.k.a past local or smaller leagues and tournaments where this kind of stuff is tolerated), there are obligations an athlete needs to fulfill in order to be wanted in the business. Ultimately, Naniwa hurt himself the most. No one should be outraged by this except for the people who lost money because of this (which fortunately probably isn't a fortune at this point), so everyone should calm down and not feel personally hurt. People paid good money to see these games. Why shouldn't they be pissed? Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 15:06 Ravomat wrote:On December 14 2011 14:24 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 14 2011 14:12 Ravomat wrote:On December 14 2011 13:59 Ryuu314 wrote:
Also, to everyone who's saying it's up to Naniwa to play how he wants or "he plays for himself" or for his own interest or w/e. THAT'S NOT TRUE.
GOM pays Naniwa. We pay GOM. We pay good money to see people play games. Even if the games aren't good, we still paid to see him play. He's playing for us, not himself. This is his job and as such it demands a level of professionalism that he has not displayed. Cool. Let's tell all the players how to play the game. Tired of seeing bunker rushes in TvZ? No problem tell the players are not allowed to. Tired of seeing 4gate vs 4gate in PvP? Tell them to stop. Wait we tried that. It didn't work. The 4gate wars in PvP lasted about 6months. We couldn't fucking tell them to stop. It doesn't work that way in RTS. The only thing that matters is to win, no matter how. Today Naniwa lost. GOM pays out what the players have earned. He earned his spot in this tournament. GOM thinks Naniwa lost with his behaviour today the privilege to get invited into their invitationals. I don't agree with that but I can't argue with that. It's their right. Though he can still play in the open competition because he's got the skills and the players are not arbitrarily evaluated for something not related to skills. Did you ignorant hypocrite even think about what you wrote? How am I a hypocrite? When did I say we have to tell the players how to play the game? Did you even read my post? What Naniwa did was not playing the game. That was blatantly throwing the game. Are you honestly going to try to convince me that probe rushing is a legitimate way to play SC2? What he did is like a football/soccer/basketball player literally handing the ball to the other team every time he touches it. Naniwa did not play the game. He threw it. You said it yourself, "The only thing that matters is to win, no matter how." Are you honestly under the belief that probe rushing shows Naniwa's attempt to win? If your answers are yes then we disagree on fundamental grounds of what is a game of SC2. Unless I'm mistaken, GOM paid for his trip/stay to Korea. We as the viewers pay GOM to finance their tournament, which in turn includes expenses incurred by Naniwa that GOM foots. Even if Naniwa never touched a single GOM dollar, as a progamer, playing SC2 is his job and he needs to treat it as such. You said Naniwa doesn't play for himself which means he plays for someone else (the viewers, sponsors, GOMTV, you, aliens hacking into our satellites). Thus we could theoretically tell him what builds to use. Which is stupid. He plays for himself and gets payed for results and not weather you like him or not. Yes, Naniwa threw the game but he played it. Workerrushes are legitimate. Catz drone rushes all the time. In the beta SCV rushes were popular when they had 60hp. Probes have shields and theoretically should never die because of it. We can't ban people for using stupid builds. Probe rushing is stupid just like 1Base colossus in PvP which is proven to be the weakest 1base because play yet we still see it occasionally. The thing is we can't tell them how to play. Naniwa playing Nestea was equivalent to playing a 5th set in a Bo5 when you are already down 0-4. He was out of the tournament just like Nestea. If Nestea would have had a shot at advancing to the next round I'm sure Naniwa would have at least tried to prevent that happening though we will never find out. I don't know if Gom paid for his trip and all but I can't imagine it because I think Complexity brought him out and now he is staying with Quantic/Startale anyway. You saw Naniwa playing 3 games and he lost those 3 in a very close fashion. You are mad Naniwa played a 1minute game instead of a 6minute game, I get that. We better send him to jail, the moon or some remote planet like pluto because he threw a really important match. Don't worry though next time he will go for a 4gate so people like you feel better that. You waste about 5minutes of your life every time this happens. I hope you like it. Your analogy to soccer, football and all is flawed. They all have a fixed playtime. This means sponsors pay that people see their banners for a certain amount of time. Ads are scheduled. This all gets planned before a season starts. So if they don't care about a game they just field B-teamers or play some chess on grass. GOM got the chance to show the logos of their sponsors for all games that were scheduled. Lol the first part of your post is just...so logically inconsistent. Just because we pay to see him play doesn't mean we can tell him how to play. I pay to get cable/tickets to a ball game; they play to win championships for themselves and I don't get to tell them how to play. What Naniwa did was not legitimate way to play. There is absolutely 0 chance of winning with a worker rush unless you completely outclass your opponent. SCV rushes and drone rushes that Catz does is a cheese that have a chance to win because guess what? They aren't rushes with your starting 6 workers. SCV rushes in beta involved marines and had a ridiculously high winrate hence the SCV nerf. Just saying. I guess we disagree on the fundamental grounds of what it means to play SC2. You are under the delusion that probe rushing is a legitimate strategy that has a chance of winning. I, and everyone else hating on Naniwa for this, believes that worker rushing with your first 6 workers has absolutely no chance of winning and is basically throwing the game. What Naniwa did was not a "stupid build;" he didnt even fucking play SC2. I'm not mad Naniwa played a 1 minute game not 6. No one is. We are mad because Naniwa didn't play. He threw the game. He disrespected the profession of pro-gaming. He disrespected his job. He refused to acknowledge that what he does is a job and should be treated as such. We are mad that Naniwa acted like a child rather than a professional. GOM has a fixed playtime. Sponsers do pay such that people see their banners. GSL runs on sponsorships and GSL has advertisements (unless you pay extra to remove 'em). GSL is completely scheduled out before a season starts. How exactly is my analogy to sports flawed? An above poster had a great analogy to NHL and other sports leagues. Same shit applies here.
There are different ways of throwing a game. You can do as naniwa did and not play. Or you can do as hero did, and not play to win. I don't see how the second is preferable to the first.
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On December 14 2011 15:06 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 15:04 TheKK wrote:On December 14 2011 13:14 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 13:05 W2 wrote:On December 14 2011 12:48 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 12:39 On_Slaught wrote:
If the match didn't matter, why did QxG (Naniwa's team) hype it up?
I think we need a good answer to this question before we can even entertain arguments about a match not mattering somehow meaning you throw professionalism out the window. A glorified show match is still a match that has a huge imapct on what people around the world think about you and your team. It didn't matter in the context of the competition. Naniwa is player who strives hard to be the best player in the world. Which is why a match for the fourth place in the group is meaningless to him. Remember, though you may see rivalry between naniwa and nestea, naniwa may not. That's why people are saying naniwa is selfish. He only acts according to his own benefit/gain. It's meaningless to him, but what about gomtv, the essence of competition, and the thousands of people who would die to be in his spot right now, playing against nestea on tv? He cheapens the privilege of sitting in the booth and being a pro-gamer. He acts according to his own perspective, and failing to take into account what some expect of him (clearly, it's a subset of viewers that feel this way) may certainly be said to be selfish. But again, remember that he may not see the situation the way you do. What you're asking is that he 'puts on a show', and plays out the match, for the sake of the viewers. But if to naniwa what is important is to be the best, and to compete for being the best, to pretend-play may be what cheapens the tournament. If what you want is a show for the sake of the show, naniwa probably isn't the right person to ask. You may not like this, but maybe you can understand it. Do you realize why an NHL hockey team can't just simply forfeit a game? There is a lot more than just the viewers that relies on having a show. At the professional level, (a.k.a past local or smaller leagues and tournaments where this kind of stuff is tolerated), there are obligations an athlete needs to fulfill in order to be wanted in the business. Ultimately, Naniwa hurt himself the most. No one should be outraged by this except for the people who lost money because of this (which fortunately probably isn't a fortune at this point), so everyone should calm down and not feel personally hurt. People paid good money to see these games. Why shouldn't they be pissed?
Good point. I guess that could fall into the category of people who lost money due to this, I was mostly referring to people who weren't watching and never would've and are angry over this.
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On December 14 2011 15:20 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 15:06 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 14 2011 15:04 TheKK wrote:On December 14 2011 13:14 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 13:05 W2 wrote:On December 14 2011 12:48 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 12:39 On_Slaught wrote:
If the match didn't matter, why did QxG (Naniwa's team) hype it up?
I think we need a good answer to this question before we can even entertain arguments about a match not mattering somehow meaning you throw professionalism out the window. A glorified show match is still a match that has a huge imapct on what people around the world think about you and your team. It didn't matter in the context of the competition. Naniwa is player who strives hard to be the best player in the world. Which is why a match for the fourth place in the group is meaningless to him. Remember, though you may see rivalry between naniwa and nestea, naniwa may not. That's why people are saying naniwa is selfish. He only acts according to his own benefit/gain. It's meaningless to him, but what about gomtv, the essence of competition, and the thousands of people who would die to be in his spot right now, playing against nestea on tv? He cheapens the privilege of sitting in the booth and being a pro-gamer. He acts according to his own perspective, and failing to take into account what some expect of him (clearly, it's a subset of viewers that feel this way) may certainly be said to be selfish. But again, remember that he may not see the situation the way you do. What you're asking is that he 'puts on a show', and plays out the match, for the sake of the viewers. But if to naniwa what is important is to be the best, and to compete for being the best, to pretend-play may be what cheapens the tournament. If what you want is a show for the sake of the show, naniwa probably isn't the right person to ask. You may not like this, but maybe you can understand it. Do you realize why an NHL hockey team can't just simply forfeit a game? There is a lot more than just the viewers that relies on having a show. At the professional level, (a.k.a past local or smaller leagues and tournaments where this kind of stuff is tolerated), there are obligations an athlete needs to fulfill in order to be wanted in the business. Ultimately, Naniwa hurt himself the most. No one should be outraged by this except for the people who lost money because of this (which fortunately probably isn't a fortune at this point), so everyone should calm down and not feel personally hurt. People paid good money to see these games. Why shouldn't they be pissed? On December 14 2011 15:06 Ravomat wrote:On December 14 2011 14:24 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 14 2011 14:12 Ravomat wrote:On December 14 2011 13:59 Ryuu314 wrote:
Also, to everyone who's saying it's up to Naniwa to play how he wants or "he plays for himself" or for his own interest or w/e. THAT'S NOT TRUE.
GOM pays Naniwa. We pay GOM. We pay good money to see people play games. Even if the games aren't good, we still paid to see him play. He's playing for us, not himself. This is his job and as such it demands a level of professionalism that he has not displayed. Cool. Let's tell all the players how to play the game. Tired of seeing bunker rushes in TvZ? No problem tell the players are not allowed to. Tired of seeing 4gate vs 4gate in PvP? Tell them to stop. Wait we tried that. It didn't work. The 4gate wars in PvP lasted about 6months. We couldn't fucking tell them to stop. It doesn't work that way in RTS. The only thing that matters is to win, no matter how. Today Naniwa lost. GOM pays out what the players have earned. He earned his spot in this tournament. GOM thinks Naniwa lost with his behaviour today the privilege to get invited into their invitationals. I don't agree with that but I can't argue with that. It's their right. Though he can still play in the open competition because he's got the skills and the players are not arbitrarily evaluated for something not related to skills. Did you ignorant hypocrite even think about what you wrote? How am I a hypocrite? When did I say we have to tell the players how to play the game? Did you even read my post? What Naniwa did was not playing the game. That was blatantly throwing the game. Are you honestly going to try to convince me that probe rushing is a legitimate way to play SC2? What he did is like a football/soccer/basketball player literally handing the ball to the other team every time he touches it. Naniwa did not play the game. He threw it. You said it yourself, "The only thing that matters is to win, no matter how." Are you honestly under the belief that probe rushing shows Naniwa's attempt to win? If your answers are yes then we disagree on fundamental grounds of what is a game of SC2. Unless I'm mistaken, GOM paid for his trip/stay to Korea. We as the viewers pay GOM to finance their tournament, which in turn includes expenses incurred by Naniwa that GOM foots. Even if Naniwa never touched a single GOM dollar, as a progamer, playing SC2 is his job and he needs to treat it as such. You said Naniwa doesn't play for himself which means he plays for someone else (the viewers, sponsors, GOMTV, you, aliens hacking into our satellites). Thus we could theoretically tell him what builds to use. Which is stupid. He plays for himself and gets payed for results and not weather you like him or not. Yes, Naniwa threw the game but he played it. Workerrushes are legitimate. Catz drone rushes all the time. In the beta SCV rushes were popular when they had 60hp. Probes have shields and theoretically should never die because of it. We can't ban people for using stupid builds. Probe rushing is stupid just like 1Base colossus in PvP which is proven to be the weakest 1base because play yet we still see it occasionally. The thing is we can't tell them how to play. Naniwa playing Nestea was equivalent to playing a 5th set in a Bo5 when you are already down 0-4. He was out of the tournament just like Nestea. If Nestea would have had a shot at advancing to the next round I'm sure Naniwa would have at least tried to prevent that happening though we will never find out. I don't know if Gom paid for his trip and all but I can't imagine it because I think Complexity brought him out and now he is staying with Quantic/Startale anyway. You saw Naniwa playing 3 games and he lost those 3 in a very close fashion. You are mad Naniwa played a 1minute game instead of a 6minute game, I get that. We better send him to jail, the moon or some remote planet like pluto because he threw a really important match. Don't worry though next time he will go for a 4gate so people like you feel better that. You waste about 5minutes of your life every time this happens. I hope you like it. Your analogy to soccer, football and all is flawed. They all have a fixed playtime. This means sponsors pay that people see their banners for a certain amount of time. Ads are scheduled. This all gets planned before a season starts. So if they don't care about a game they just field B-teamers or play some chess on grass. GOM got the chance to show the logos of their sponsors for all games that were scheduled. Lol the first part of your post is just...so logically inconsistent. Just because we pay to see him play doesn't mean we can tell him how to play. I pay to get cable/tickets to a ball game; they play to win championships for themselves and I don't get to tell them how to play. What Naniwa did was not legitimate way to play. There is absolutely 0 chance of winning with a worker rush unless you completely outclass your opponent. SCV rushes and drone rushes that Catz does is a cheese that have a chance to win because guess what? They aren't rushes with your starting 6 workers. SCV rushes in beta involved marines and had a ridiculously high winrate hence the SCV nerf. Just saying. I guess we disagree on the fundamental grounds of what it means to play SC2. You are under the delusion that probe rushing is a legitimate strategy that has a chance of winning. I, and everyone else hating on Naniwa for this, believes that worker rushing with your first 6 workers has absolutely no chance of winning and is basically throwing the game. What Naniwa did was not a "stupid build;" he didnt even fucking play SC2. I'm not mad Naniwa played a 1 minute game not 6. No one is. We are mad because Naniwa didn't play. He threw the game. He disrespected the profession of pro-gaming. He disrespected his job. He refused to acknowledge that what he does is a job and should be treated as such. We are mad that Naniwa acted like a child rather than a professional. GOM has a fixed playtime. Sponsers do pay such that people see their banners. GSL runs on sponsorships and GSL has advertisements (unless you pay extra to remove 'em). GSL is completely scheduled out before a season starts. How exactly is my analogy to sports flawed? An above poster had a great analogy to NHL and other sports leagues. Same shit applies here. There are different ways of throwing a game. You can do as naniwa did and not play. Or you can do as hero did, and not play to win. I don't see how the second is preferable to the first.
Then you are completely overlooking the business behind broadcasted competitions.
edit: Sorry for the double post, I wish I could merge them or delete this one =/
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On December 14 2011 15:22 TheKK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 15:06 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 14 2011 15:04 TheKK wrote:On December 14 2011 13:14 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 13:05 W2 wrote:On December 14 2011 12:48 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 12:39 On_Slaught wrote:
If the match didn't matter, why did QxG (Naniwa's team) hype it up?
I think we need a good answer to this question before we can even entertain arguments about a match not mattering somehow meaning you throw professionalism out the window. A glorified show match is still a match that has a huge imapct on what people around the world think about you and your team. It didn't matter in the context of the competition. Naniwa is player who strives hard to be the best player in the world. Which is why a match for the fourth place in the group is meaningless to him. Remember, though you may see rivalry between naniwa and nestea, naniwa may not. That's why people are saying naniwa is selfish. He only acts according to his own benefit/gain. It's meaningless to him, but what about gomtv, the essence of competition, and the thousands of people who would die to be in his spot right now, playing against nestea on tv? He cheapens the privilege of sitting in the booth and being a pro-gamer. He acts according to his own perspective, and failing to take into account what some expect of him (clearly, it's a subset of viewers that feel this way) may certainly be said to be selfish. But again, remember that he may not see the situation the way you do. What you're asking is that he 'puts on a show', and plays out the match, for the sake of the viewers. But if to naniwa what is important is to be the best, and to compete for being the best, to pretend-play may be what cheapens the tournament. If what you want is a show for the sake of the show, naniwa probably isn't the right person to ask. You may not like this, but maybe you can understand it. Do you realize why an NHL hockey team can't just simply forfeit a game? There is a lot more than just the viewers that relies on having a show. At the professional level, (a.k.a past local or smaller leagues and tournaments where this kind of stuff is tolerated), there are obligations an athlete needs to fulfill in order to be wanted in the business. Ultimately, Naniwa hurt himself the most. No one should be outraged by this except for the people who lost money because of this (which fortunately probably isn't a fortune at this point), so everyone should calm down and not feel personally hurt. People paid good money to see these games. Why shouldn't they be pissed? Good point. I guess that could fall into the category of people who lost money due to this, I was mostly referring to people who weren't watching and never would've and are angry over this.
Let me give you the opposite view. I paid money to watch a competition, why are they wasting my time with games that are not competitive, where the players pretend to care?
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On December 14 2011 15:23 TheKK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 15:20 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 15:06 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 14 2011 15:04 TheKK wrote:On December 14 2011 13:14 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 13:05 W2 wrote:On December 14 2011 12:48 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 12:39 On_Slaught wrote:
If the match didn't matter, why did QxG (Naniwa's team) hype it up?
I think we need a good answer to this question before we can even entertain arguments about a match not mattering somehow meaning you throw professionalism out the window. A glorified show match is still a match that has a huge imapct on what people around the world think about you and your team. It didn't matter in the context of the competition. Naniwa is player who strives hard to be the best player in the world. Which is why a match for the fourth place in the group is meaningless to him. Remember, though you may see rivalry between naniwa and nestea, naniwa may not. That's why people are saying naniwa is selfish. He only acts according to his own benefit/gain. It's meaningless to him, but what about gomtv, the essence of competition, and the thousands of people who would die to be in his spot right now, playing against nestea on tv? He cheapens the privilege of sitting in the booth and being a pro-gamer. He acts according to his own perspective, and failing to take into account what some expect of him (clearly, it's a subset of viewers that feel this way) may certainly be said to be selfish. But again, remember that he may not see the situation the way you do. What you're asking is that he 'puts on a show', and plays out the match, for the sake of the viewers. But if to naniwa what is important is to be the best, and to compete for being the best, to pretend-play may be what cheapens the tournament. If what you want is a show for the sake of the show, naniwa probably isn't the right person to ask. You may not like this, but maybe you can understand it. Do you realize why an NHL hockey team can't just simply forfeit a game? There is a lot more than just the viewers that relies on having a show. At the professional level, (a.k.a past local or smaller leagues and tournaments where this kind of stuff is tolerated), there are obligations an athlete needs to fulfill in order to be wanted in the business. Ultimately, Naniwa hurt himself the most. No one should be outraged by this except for the people who lost money because of this (which fortunately probably isn't a fortune at this point), so everyone should calm down and not feel personally hurt. People paid good money to see these games. Why shouldn't they be pissed? On December 14 2011 15:06 Ravomat wrote:On December 14 2011 14:24 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 14 2011 14:12 Ravomat wrote:On December 14 2011 13:59 Ryuu314 wrote:
Also, to everyone who's saying it's up to Naniwa to play how he wants or "he plays for himself" or for his own interest or w/e. THAT'S NOT TRUE.
GOM pays Naniwa. We pay GOM. We pay good money to see people play games. Even if the games aren't good, we still paid to see him play. He's playing for us, not himself. This is his job and as such it demands a level of professionalism that he has not displayed. Cool. Let's tell all the players how to play the game. Tired of seeing bunker rushes in TvZ? No problem tell the players are not allowed to. Tired of seeing 4gate vs 4gate in PvP? Tell them to stop. Wait we tried that. It didn't work. The 4gate wars in PvP lasted about 6months. We couldn't fucking tell them to stop. It doesn't work that way in RTS. The only thing that matters is to win, no matter how. Today Naniwa lost. GOM pays out what the players have earned. He earned his spot in this tournament. GOM thinks Naniwa lost with his behaviour today the privilege to get invited into their invitationals. I don't agree with that but I can't argue with that. It's their right. Though he can still play in the open competition because he's got the skills and the players are not arbitrarily evaluated for something not related to skills. Did you ignorant hypocrite even think about what you wrote? How am I a hypocrite? When did I say we have to tell the players how to play the game? Did you even read my post? What Naniwa did was not playing the game. That was blatantly throwing the game. Are you honestly going to try to convince me that probe rushing is a legitimate way to play SC2? What he did is like a football/soccer/basketball player literally handing the ball to the other team every time he touches it. Naniwa did not play the game. He threw it. You said it yourself, "The only thing that matters is to win, no matter how." Are you honestly under the belief that probe rushing shows Naniwa's attempt to win? If your answers are yes then we disagree on fundamental grounds of what is a game of SC2. Unless I'm mistaken, GOM paid for his trip/stay to Korea. We as the viewers pay GOM to finance their tournament, which in turn includes expenses incurred by Naniwa that GOM foots. Even if Naniwa never touched a single GOM dollar, as a progamer, playing SC2 is his job and he needs to treat it as such. You said Naniwa doesn't play for himself which means he plays for someone else (the viewers, sponsors, GOMTV, you, aliens hacking into our satellites). Thus we could theoretically tell him what builds to use. Which is stupid. He plays for himself and gets payed for results and not weather you like him or not. Yes, Naniwa threw the game but he played it. Workerrushes are legitimate. Catz drone rushes all the time. In the beta SCV rushes were popular when they had 60hp. Probes have shields and theoretically should never die because of it. We can't ban people for using stupid builds. Probe rushing is stupid just like 1Base colossus in PvP which is proven to be the weakest 1base because play yet we still see it occasionally. The thing is we can't tell them how to play. Naniwa playing Nestea was equivalent to playing a 5th set in a Bo5 when you are already down 0-4. He was out of the tournament just like Nestea. If Nestea would have had a shot at advancing to the next round I'm sure Naniwa would have at least tried to prevent that happening though we will never find out. I don't know if Gom paid for his trip and all but I can't imagine it because I think Complexity brought him out and now he is staying with Quantic/Startale anyway. You saw Naniwa playing 3 games and he lost those 3 in a very close fashion. You are mad Naniwa played a 1minute game instead of a 6minute game, I get that. We better send him to jail, the moon or some remote planet like pluto because he threw a really important match. Don't worry though next time he will go for a 4gate so people like you feel better that. You waste about 5minutes of your life every time this happens. I hope you like it. Your analogy to soccer, football and all is flawed. They all have a fixed playtime. This means sponsors pay that people see their banners for a certain amount of time. Ads are scheduled. This all gets planned before a season starts. So if they don't care about a game they just field B-teamers or play some chess on grass. GOM got the chance to show the logos of their sponsors for all games that were scheduled. Lol the first part of your post is just...so logically inconsistent. Just because we pay to see him play doesn't mean we can tell him how to play. I pay to get cable/tickets to a ball game; they play to win championships for themselves and I don't get to tell them how to play. What Naniwa did was not legitimate way to play. There is absolutely 0 chance of winning with a worker rush unless you completely outclass your opponent. SCV rushes and drone rushes that Catz does is a cheese that have a chance to win because guess what? They aren't rushes with your starting 6 workers. SCV rushes in beta involved marines and had a ridiculously high winrate hence the SCV nerf. Just saying. I guess we disagree on the fundamental grounds of what it means to play SC2. You are under the delusion that probe rushing is a legitimate strategy that has a chance of winning. I, and everyone else hating on Naniwa for this, believes that worker rushing with your first 6 workers has absolutely no chance of winning and is basically throwing the game. What Naniwa did was not a "stupid build;" he didnt even fucking play SC2. I'm not mad Naniwa played a 1 minute game not 6. No one is. We are mad because Naniwa didn't play. He threw the game. He disrespected the profession of pro-gaming. He disrespected his job. He refused to acknowledge that what he does is a job and should be treated as such. We are mad that Naniwa acted like a child rather than a professional. GOM has a fixed playtime. Sponsers do pay such that people see their banners. GSL runs on sponsorships and GSL has advertisements (unless you pay extra to remove 'em). GSL is completely scheduled out before a season starts. How exactly is my analogy to sports flawed? An above poster had a great analogy to NHL and other sports leagues. Same shit applies here. There are different ways of throwing a game. You can do as naniwa did and not play. Or you can do as hero did, and not play to win. I don't see how the second is preferable to the first. Then you are completely overlooking the business behind broadcasted competitions. edit: Sorry for the double post, I wish I could merge them or delete this one =/
I don't think showing games of no competitive value, with players to whom the match doesn't matter, is a good business decision. I payed for a competition with matches of consequence, not a show for the sake of the show.
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Naniwa is such a boss, I don't get you people, you like when Idra throws away games and idolize him, but when someone else does it, he suddenly shows games of no competitive value.
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On December 14 2011 15:24 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 15:22 TheKK wrote:On December 14 2011 15:06 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 14 2011 15:04 TheKK wrote:On December 14 2011 13:14 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 13:05 W2 wrote:On December 14 2011 12:48 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 12:39 On_Slaught wrote:
If the match didn't matter, why did QxG (Naniwa's team) hype it up?
I think we need a good answer to this question before we can even entertain arguments about a match not mattering somehow meaning you throw professionalism out the window. A glorified show match is still a match that has a huge imapct on what people around the world think about you and your team. It didn't matter in the context of the competition. Naniwa is player who strives hard to be the best player in the world. Which is why a match for the fourth place in the group is meaningless to him. Remember, though you may see rivalry between naniwa and nestea, naniwa may not. That's why people are saying naniwa is selfish. He only acts according to his own benefit/gain. It's meaningless to him, but what about gomtv, the essence of competition, and the thousands of people who would die to be in his spot right now, playing against nestea on tv? He cheapens the privilege of sitting in the booth and being a pro-gamer. He acts according to his own perspective, and failing to take into account what some expect of him (clearly, it's a subset of viewers that feel this way) may certainly be said to be selfish. But again, remember that he may not see the situation the way you do. What you're asking is that he 'puts on a show', and plays out the match, for the sake of the viewers. But if to naniwa what is important is to be the best, and to compete for being the best, to pretend-play may be what cheapens the tournament. If what you want is a show for the sake of the show, naniwa probably isn't the right person to ask. You may not like this, but maybe you can understand it. Do you realize why an NHL hockey team can't just simply forfeit a game? There is a lot more than just the viewers that relies on having a show. At the professional level, (a.k.a past local or smaller leagues and tournaments where this kind of stuff is tolerated), there are obligations an athlete needs to fulfill in order to be wanted in the business. Ultimately, Naniwa hurt himself the most. No one should be outraged by this except for the people who lost money because of this (which fortunately probably isn't a fortune at this point), so everyone should calm down and not feel personally hurt. People paid good money to see these games. Why shouldn't they be pissed? Good point. I guess that could fall into the category of people who lost money due to this, I was mostly referring to people who weren't watching and never would've and are angry over this. Let me give you the opposite view. I paid money to watch a competition, why are they wasting my time with games that are not competitive, where the players pretend to care?
Well even if the player pretends to care while playing a match the people who paid to watch and notice it will still get angry. It happens often in sports too.
edit: sometimes the viewer also understands that the match doesn't matter so the player won't be trying and in that sense will not hold a grudge against the team or the player. But he or she still wants to see a game. And so do the sponsors and the station.
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Naniwa has always been kind of a dick never really cared for him as a person period.
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On December 14 2011 15:06 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 15:04 TheKK wrote:On December 14 2011 13:14 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 13:05 W2 wrote:On December 14 2011 12:48 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 12:39 On_Slaught wrote:
If the match didn't matter, why did QxG (Naniwa's team) hype it up?
I think we need a good answer to this question before we can even entertain arguments about a match not mattering somehow meaning you throw professionalism out the window. A glorified show match is still a match that has a huge imapct on what people around the world think about you and your team. It didn't matter in the context of the competition. Naniwa is player who strives hard to be the best player in the world. Which is why a match for the fourth place in the group is meaningless to him. Remember, though you may see rivalry between naniwa and nestea, naniwa may not. That's why people are saying naniwa is selfish. He only acts according to his own benefit/gain. It's meaningless to him, but what about gomtv, the essence of competition, and the thousands of people who would die to be in his spot right now, playing against nestea on tv? He cheapens the privilege of sitting in the booth and being a pro-gamer. He acts according to his own perspective, and failing to take into account what some expect of him (clearly, it's a subset of viewers that feel this way) may certainly be said to be selfish. But again, remember that he may not see the situation the way you do. What you're asking is that he 'puts on a show', and plays out the match, for the sake of the viewers. But if to naniwa what is important is to be the best, and to compete for being the best, to pretend-play may be what cheapens the tournament. If what you want is a show for the sake of the show, naniwa probably isn't the right person to ask. You may not like this, but maybe you can understand it. Do you realize why an NHL hockey team can't just simply forfeit a game? There is a lot more than just the viewers that relies on having a show. At the professional level, (a.k.a past local or smaller leagues and tournaments where this kind of stuff is tolerated), there are obligations an athlete needs to fulfill in order to be wanted in the business. Ultimately, Naniwa hurt himself the most. No one should be outraged by this except for the people who lost money because of this (which fortunately probably isn't a fortune at this point), so everyone should calm down and not feel personally hurt. People paid good money to see these games. Why shouldn't they be pissed? Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 15:06 Ravomat wrote:On December 14 2011 14:24 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 14 2011 14:12 Ravomat wrote:On December 14 2011 13:59 Ryuu314 wrote:
Also, to everyone who's saying it's up to Naniwa to play how he wants or "he plays for himself" or for his own interest or w/e. THAT'S NOT TRUE.
GOM pays Naniwa. We pay GOM. We pay good money to see people play games. Even if the games aren't good, we still paid to see him play. He's playing for us, not himself. This is his job and as such it demands a level of professionalism that he has not displayed. Cool. Let's tell all the players how to play the game. Tired of seeing bunker rushes in TvZ? No problem tell the players are not allowed to. Tired of seeing 4gate vs 4gate in PvP? Tell them to stop. Wait we tried that. It didn't work. The 4gate wars in PvP lasted about 6months. We couldn't fucking tell them to stop. It doesn't work that way in RTS. The only thing that matters is to win, no matter how. Today Naniwa lost. GOM pays out what the players have earned. He earned his spot in this tournament. GOM thinks Naniwa lost with his behaviour today the privilege to get invited into their invitationals. I don't agree with that but I can't argue with that. It's their right. Though he can still play in the open competition because he's got the skills and the players are not arbitrarily evaluated for something not related to skills. Did you ignorant hypocrite even think about what you wrote? How am I a hypocrite? When did I say we have to tell the players how to play the game? Did you even read my post? What Naniwa did was not playing the game. That was blatantly throwing the game. Are you honestly going to try to convince me that probe rushing is a legitimate way to play SC2? What he did is like a football/soccer/basketball player literally handing the ball to the other team every time he touches it. Naniwa did not play the game. He threw it. You said it yourself, "The only thing that matters is to win, no matter how." Are you honestly under the belief that probe rushing shows Naniwa's attempt to win? If your answers are yes then we disagree on fundamental grounds of what is a game of SC2. Unless I'm mistaken, GOM paid for his trip/stay to Korea. We as the viewers pay GOM to finance their tournament, which in turn includes expenses incurred by Naniwa that GOM foots. Even if Naniwa never touched a single GOM dollar, as a progamer, playing SC2 is his job and he needs to treat it as such. You said Naniwa doesn't play for himself which means he plays for someone else (the viewers, sponsors, GOMTV, you, aliens hacking into our satellites). Thus we could theoretically tell him what builds to use. Which is stupid. He plays for himself and gets payed for results and not weather you like him or not. Yes, Naniwa threw the game but he played it. Workerrushes are legitimate. Catz drone rushes all the time. In the beta SCV rushes were popular when they had 60hp. Probes have shields and theoretically should never die because of it. We can't ban people for using stupid builds. Probe rushing is stupid just like 1Base colossus in PvP which is proven to be the weakest 1base because play yet we still see it occasionally. The thing is we can't tell them how to play. Naniwa playing Nestea was equivalent to playing a 5th set in a Bo5 when you are already down 0-4. He was out of the tournament just like Nestea. If Nestea would have had a shot at advancing to the next round I'm sure Naniwa would have at least tried to prevent that happening though we will never find out. I don't know if Gom paid for his trip and all but I can't imagine it because I think Complexity brought him out and now he is staying with Quantic/Startale anyway. You saw Naniwa playing 3 games and he lost those 3 in a very close fashion. You are mad Naniwa played a 1minute game instead of a 6minute game, I get that. We better send him to jail, the moon or some remote planet like pluto because he threw a really important match. Don't worry though next time he will go for a 4gate so people like you feel better that. You waste about 5minutes of your life every time this happens. I hope you like it. Your analogy to soccer, football and all is flawed. They all have a fixed playtime. This means sponsors pay that people see their banners for a certain amount of time. Ads are scheduled. This all gets planned before a season starts. So if they don't care about a game they just field B-teamers or play some chess on grass. GOM got the chance to show the logos of their sponsors for all games that were scheduled. Lol the first part of your post is just...so logically inconsistent. Just because we pay to see him play doesn't mean we can tell him how to play. I pay to get cable/tickets to a ball game; they play to win championships for themselves and I don't get to tell them how to play. What Naniwa did was not legitimate way to play. There is absolutely 0 chance of winning with a worker rush unless you completely outclass your opponent. SCV rushes and drone rushes that Catz does is a cheese that have a chance to win because guess what? They aren't rushes with your starting 6 workers. SCV rushes in beta involved marines and had a ridiculously high winrate hence the SCV nerf. Just saying. I guess we disagree on the fundamental grounds of what it means to play SC2. You are under the delusion that probe rushing is a legitimate strategy that has a chance of winning. I, and everyone else hating on Naniwa for this, believes that worker rushing with your first 6 workers has absolutely no chance of winning and is basically throwing the game. What Naniwa did was not a "stupid build;" he didnt even fucking play SC2. I'm not mad Naniwa played a 1 minute game not 6. No one is. We are mad because Naniwa didn't play. He threw the game. He disrespected the profession of pro-gaming. He disrespected his job. He refused to acknowledge that what he does is a job and should be treated as such. We are mad that Naniwa acted like a child rather than a professional. GOM has a fixed playtime. Sponsers do pay such that people see their banners. GSL runs on sponsorships and GSL has advertisements (unless you pay extra to remove 'em). GSL is completely scheduled out before a season starts. How exactly is my analogy to sports flawed? An above poster had a great analogy to NHL and other sports leagues. Same shit applies here.
Let me show me what you wrote: "Also, to everyone who's saying it's up to Naniwa to play how he wants or "he plays for himself" or for his own interest or w/e. THAT'S NOT TRUE."
I ask you again who is Naniwa playing for if not for himself? Who decides how Naniwa plays if not Naniwa himself?
I know that probe rushes won't ever kill another player you just don't get what I'm saying. Or you are intentionally ignoring it but I will try one more time to explain what I mean: Naniwa played 3 games. He lost them all and thus he is out of the tournament. Then he has to play another player who is out of the competition which means it's basically a showmatch with no price money since there is no difference in price money when you place 4th or 5th. Naniwa still crushed by his losses decides he doesn't want to lie to/disappoint everybody and show an half-assed performance which is not indicative of anything because he wouldn't use one of his really well-prepared builds but just forfeits this showmatch. And now people shit all over him because the stream ended 5 minutes earlier than it would if he played like a bronze leaguer and a-moved his 4gate across the map for Nestea to clean up.
Your analogy is flawed because you don't know how long the games will last. A best of 7 can end as early as 30minutes or lasts as long as 6 goddamn hours (i.e. TvT). This is very different from sports like soccer. Here you have 2x45 minutes playtime + 15minute break + overtime (2x 0-6 minutes extra). So a soccer match will have about 90minutes of playtime with fixed break inbetween. Quantic's sponsors had their exposure with Naniwa participating and Gomtv's sponsors got robbed of 5minutes of air time, big deal.
Progaming is not a 9-to-5 job. Naniwa played his games today and lost. End of story. I understand people are disappointed but I don't understand people hunting him with a pitchfork.
I still need explanations on how he disrespected anyone expect for his fans. He didn't fix a match or anything.
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On December 14 2011 15:24 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 15:22 TheKK wrote:On December 14 2011 15:06 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 14 2011 15:04 TheKK wrote:On December 14 2011 13:14 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 13:05 W2 wrote:On December 14 2011 12:48 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 12:39 On_Slaught wrote:
If the match didn't matter, why did QxG (Naniwa's team) hype it up?
I think we need a good answer to this question before we can even entertain arguments about a match not mattering somehow meaning you throw professionalism out the window. A glorified show match is still a match that has a huge imapct on what people around the world think about you and your team. It didn't matter in the context of the competition. Naniwa is player who strives hard to be the best player in the world. Which is why a match for the fourth place in the group is meaningless to him. Remember, though you may see rivalry between naniwa and nestea, naniwa may not. That's why people are saying naniwa is selfish. He only acts according to his own benefit/gain. It's meaningless to him, but what about gomtv, the essence of competition, and the thousands of people who would die to be in his spot right now, playing against nestea on tv? He cheapens the privilege of sitting in the booth and being a pro-gamer. He acts according to his own perspective, and failing to take into account what some expect of him (clearly, it's a subset of viewers that feel this way) may certainly be said to be selfish. But again, remember that he may not see the situation the way you do. What you're asking is that he 'puts on a show', and plays out the match, for the sake of the viewers. But if to naniwa what is important is to be the best, and to compete for being the best, to pretend-play may be what cheapens the tournament. If what you want is a show for the sake of the show, naniwa probably isn't the right person to ask. You may not like this, but maybe you can understand it. Do you realize why an NHL hockey team can't just simply forfeit a game? There is a lot more than just the viewers that relies on having a show. At the professional level, (a.k.a past local or smaller leagues and tournaments where this kind of stuff is tolerated), there are obligations an athlete needs to fulfill in order to be wanted in the business. Ultimately, Naniwa hurt himself the most. No one should be outraged by this except for the people who lost money because of this (which fortunately probably isn't a fortune at this point), so everyone should calm down and not feel personally hurt. People paid good money to see these games. Why shouldn't they be pissed? Good point. I guess that could fall into the category of people who lost money due to this, I was mostly referring to people who weren't watching and never would've and are angry over this. Let me give you the opposite view. I paid money to watch a competition, why are they wasting my time with games that are not competitive, where the players pretend to care?
You paid for a tournament, not a show match. GSL gave you a show match, and Naniwa didn't want a show match.
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What he did was basically saying fuck you nestea, you are not worthy of my play time -_-
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On December 14 2011 15:50 Ravomat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 15:06 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 14 2011 15:04 TheKK wrote:On December 14 2011 13:14 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 13:05 W2 wrote:On December 14 2011 12:48 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 12:39 On_Slaught wrote:
If the match didn't matter, why did QxG (Naniwa's team) hype it up?
I think we need a good answer to this question before we can even entertain arguments about a match not mattering somehow meaning you throw professionalism out the window. A glorified show match is still a match that has a huge imapct on what people around the world think about you and your team. It didn't matter in the context of the competition. Naniwa is player who strives hard to be the best player in the world. Which is why a match for the fourth place in the group is meaningless to him. Remember, though you may see rivalry between naniwa and nestea, naniwa may not. That's why people are saying naniwa is selfish. He only acts according to his own benefit/gain. It's meaningless to him, but what about gomtv, the essence of competition, and the thousands of people who would die to be in his spot right now, playing against nestea on tv? He cheapens the privilege of sitting in the booth and being a pro-gamer. He acts according to his own perspective, and failing to take into account what some expect of him (clearly, it's a subset of viewers that feel this way) may certainly be said to be selfish. But again, remember that he may not see the situation the way you do. What you're asking is that he 'puts on a show', and plays out the match, for the sake of the viewers. But if to naniwa what is important is to be the best, and to compete for being the best, to pretend-play may be what cheapens the tournament. If what you want is a show for the sake of the show, naniwa probably isn't the right person to ask. You may not like this, but maybe you can understand it. Do you realize why an NHL hockey team can't just simply forfeit a game? There is a lot more than just the viewers that relies on having a show. At the professional level, (a.k.a past local or smaller leagues and tournaments where this kind of stuff is tolerated), there are obligations an athlete needs to fulfill in order to be wanted in the business. Ultimately, Naniwa hurt himself the most. No one should be outraged by this except for the people who lost money because of this (which fortunately probably isn't a fortune at this point), so everyone should calm down and not feel personally hurt. People paid good money to see these games. Why shouldn't they be pissed? On December 14 2011 15:06 Ravomat wrote:On December 14 2011 14:24 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 14 2011 14:12 Ravomat wrote:On December 14 2011 13:59 Ryuu314 wrote:
Also, to everyone who's saying it's up to Naniwa to play how he wants or "he plays for himself" or for his own interest or w/e. THAT'S NOT TRUE.
GOM pays Naniwa. We pay GOM. We pay good money to see people play games. Even if the games aren't good, we still paid to see him play. He's playing for us, not himself. This is his job and as such it demands a level of professionalism that he has not displayed. Cool. Let's tell all the players how to play the game. Tired of seeing bunker rushes in TvZ? No problem tell the players are not allowed to. Tired of seeing 4gate vs 4gate in PvP? Tell them to stop. Wait we tried that. It didn't work. The 4gate wars in PvP lasted about 6months. We couldn't fucking tell them to stop. It doesn't work that way in RTS. The only thing that matters is to win, no matter how. Today Naniwa lost. GOM pays out what the players have earned. He earned his spot in this tournament. GOM thinks Naniwa lost with his behaviour today the privilege to get invited into their invitationals. I don't agree with that but I can't argue with that. It's their right. Though he can still play in the open competition because he's got the skills and the players are not arbitrarily evaluated for something not related to skills. Did you ignorant hypocrite even think about what you wrote? How am I a hypocrite? When did I say we have to tell the players how to play the game? Did you even read my post? What Naniwa did was not playing the game. That was blatantly throwing the game. Are you honestly going to try to convince me that probe rushing is a legitimate way to play SC2? What he did is like a football/soccer/basketball player literally handing the ball to the other team every time he touches it. Naniwa did not play the game. He threw it. You said it yourself, "The only thing that matters is to win, no matter how." Are you honestly under the belief that probe rushing shows Naniwa's attempt to win? If your answers are yes then we disagree on fundamental grounds of what is a game of SC2. Unless I'm mistaken, GOM paid for his trip/stay to Korea. We as the viewers pay GOM to finance their tournament, which in turn includes expenses incurred by Naniwa that GOM foots. Even if Naniwa never touched a single GOM dollar, as a progamer, playing SC2 is his job and he needs to treat it as such. You said Naniwa doesn't play for himself which means he plays for someone else (the viewers, sponsors, GOMTV, you, aliens hacking into our satellites). Thus we could theoretically tell him what builds to use. Which is stupid. He plays for himself and gets payed for results and not weather you like him or not. Yes, Naniwa threw the game but he played it. Workerrushes are legitimate. Catz drone rushes all the time. In the beta SCV rushes were popular when they had 60hp. Probes have shields and theoretically should never die because of it. We can't ban people for using stupid builds. Probe rushing is stupid just like 1Base colossus in PvP which is proven to be the weakest 1base because play yet we still see it occasionally. The thing is we can't tell them how to play. Naniwa playing Nestea was equivalent to playing a 5th set in a Bo5 when you are already down 0-4. He was out of the tournament just like Nestea. If Nestea would have had a shot at advancing to the next round I'm sure Naniwa would have at least tried to prevent that happening though we will never find out. I don't know if Gom paid for his trip and all but I can't imagine it because I think Complexity brought him out and now he is staying with Quantic/Startale anyway. You saw Naniwa playing 3 games and he lost those 3 in a very close fashion. You are mad Naniwa played a 1minute game instead of a 6minute game, I get that. We better send him to jail, the moon or some remote planet like pluto because he threw a really important match. Don't worry though next time he will go for a 4gate so people like you feel better that. You waste about 5minutes of your life every time this happens. I hope you like it. Your analogy to soccer, football and all is flawed. They all have a fixed playtime. This means sponsors pay that people see their banners for a certain amount of time. Ads are scheduled. This all gets planned before a season starts. So if they don't care about a game they just field B-teamers or play some chess on grass. GOM got the chance to show the logos of their sponsors for all games that were scheduled. Lol the first part of your post is just...so logically inconsistent. Just because we pay to see him play doesn't mean we can tell him how to play. I pay to get cable/tickets to a ball game; they play to win championships for themselves and I don't get to tell them how to play. What Naniwa did was not legitimate way to play. There is absolutely 0 chance of winning with a worker rush unless you completely outclass your opponent. SCV rushes and drone rushes that Catz does is a cheese that have a chance to win because guess what? They aren't rushes with your starting 6 workers. SCV rushes in beta involved marines and had a ridiculously high winrate hence the SCV nerf. Just saying. I guess we disagree on the fundamental grounds of what it means to play SC2. You are under the delusion that probe rushing is a legitimate strategy that has a chance of winning. I, and everyone else hating on Naniwa for this, believes that worker rushing with your first 6 workers has absolutely no chance of winning and is basically throwing the game. What Naniwa did was not a "stupid build;" he didnt even fucking play SC2. I'm not mad Naniwa played a 1 minute game not 6. No one is. We are mad because Naniwa didn't play. He threw the game. He disrespected the profession of pro-gaming. He disrespected his job. He refused to acknowledge that what he does is a job and should be treated as such. We are mad that Naniwa acted like a child rather than a professional. GOM has a fixed playtime. Sponsers do pay such that people see their banners. GSL runs on sponsorships and GSL has advertisements (unless you pay extra to remove 'em). GSL is completely scheduled out before a season starts. How exactly is my analogy to sports flawed? An above poster had a great analogy to NHL and other sports leagues. Same shit applies here. Let me show me what you wrote: "Also, to everyone who's saying it's up to Naniwa to play how he wants or "he plays for himself" or for his own interest or w/e. THAT'S NOT TRUE." I ask you again who is Naniwa playing for if not for himself? Who decides how Naniwa plays if not Naniwa himself? I know that probe rushes won't ever kill another player you just don't get what I'm saying. Or you are intentionally ignoring it but I will try one more time to explain what I mean: Naniwa played 3 games. He lost them all and thus he is out of the tournament. Then he has to play another player who is out of the competition which means it's basically a showmatch with no price money since there is no difference in price money when you place 4th or 5th. Naniwa still crushed by his losses decides he doesn't want to lie to/disappoint everybody and show an half-assed performance which is not indicative of anything because he wouldn't use one of his really well-prepared builds but just forfeits this showmatch. And now people shit all over him because the stream ended 5 minutes earlier than it would if he played like a bronze leaguer and a-moved his 4gate across the map for Nestea to clean up. Your analogy is flawed because you don't know how long the games will last. A best of 7 can end as early as 30minutes or lasts as long as 6 goddamn hours (i.e. TvT). This is very different from sports like soccer. Here you have 2x45 minutes playtime + 15minute break + overtime (2x 0-6 minutes extra). So a soccer match will have about 90minutes of playtime with fixed break inbetween. Quantic's sponsors had their exposure with Naniwa participating and Gomtv's sponsors got robbed of 5minutes of air time, big deal. Progaming is not a 9-to-5 job. Naniwa played his games today and lost. End of story. I understand people are disappointed but I don't understand people hunting him with a pitchfork. I still need explanations on how he disrespected anyone expect for his fans. He didn't fix a match or anything.
1. Do you know how much it cost to have 5min of air time? People pay millions to have their 30s Ad during a super bowl game. Blizzard Cup is the SuperBowl of Starcraft 2 so don't be ignorant of the severity of being 'robbed 5 minute of air time'.
2. Fans have the right to be upset. You would be upset too if your favorite hockey/football team starts throwing games (Playing without a goalie, tripping on the puck) because the team have no way to gain enough points for playoffs. How would you expect the sponsors to continue sponsoring the team/player?
3. Pros play to show their skills and because they love the game. Naniwa did neither of that.
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On December 14 2011 16:34 FishForThought wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 15:50 Ravomat wrote:On December 14 2011 15:06 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 14 2011 15:04 TheKK wrote:On December 14 2011 13:14 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 13:05 W2 wrote:On December 14 2011 12:48 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 12:39 On_Slaught wrote:
If the match didn't matter, why did QxG (Naniwa's team) hype it up?
I think we need a good answer to this question before we can even entertain arguments about a match not mattering somehow meaning you throw professionalism out the window. A glorified show match is still a match that has a huge imapct on what people around the world think about you and your team. It didn't matter in the context of the competition. Naniwa is player who strives hard to be the best player in the world. Which is why a match for the fourth place in the group is meaningless to him. Remember, though you may see rivalry between naniwa and nestea, naniwa may not. That's why people are saying naniwa is selfish. He only acts according to his own benefit/gain. It's meaningless to him, but what about gomtv, the essence of competition, and the thousands of people who would die to be in his spot right now, playing against nestea on tv? He cheapens the privilege of sitting in the booth and being a pro-gamer. He acts according to his own perspective, and failing to take into account what some expect of him (clearly, it's a subset of viewers that feel this way) may certainly be said to be selfish. But again, remember that he may not see the situation the way you do. What you're asking is that he 'puts on a show', and plays out the match, for the sake of the viewers. But if to naniwa what is important is to be the best, and to compete for being the best, to pretend-play may be what cheapens the tournament. If what you want is a show for the sake of the show, naniwa probably isn't the right person to ask. You may not like this, but maybe you can understand it. Do you realize why an NHL hockey team can't just simply forfeit a game? There is a lot more than just the viewers that relies on having a show. At the professional level, (a.k.a past local or smaller leagues and tournaments where this kind of stuff is tolerated), there are obligations an athlete needs to fulfill in order to be wanted in the business. Ultimately, Naniwa hurt himself the most. No one should be outraged by this except for the people who lost money because of this (which fortunately probably isn't a fortune at this point), so everyone should calm down and not feel personally hurt. People paid good money to see these games. Why shouldn't they be pissed? On December 14 2011 15:06 Ravomat wrote:On December 14 2011 14:24 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 14 2011 14:12 Ravomat wrote:On December 14 2011 13:59 Ryuu314 wrote:
Also, to everyone who's saying it's up to Naniwa to play how he wants or "he plays for himself" or for his own interest or w/e. THAT'S NOT TRUE.
GOM pays Naniwa. We pay GOM. We pay good money to see people play games. Even if the games aren't good, we still paid to see him play. He's playing for us, not himself. This is his job and as such it demands a level of professionalism that he has not displayed. Cool. Let's tell all the players how to play the game. Tired of seeing bunker rushes in TvZ? No problem tell the players are not allowed to. Tired of seeing 4gate vs 4gate in PvP? Tell them to stop. Wait we tried that. It didn't work. The 4gate wars in PvP lasted about 6months. We couldn't fucking tell them to stop. It doesn't work that way in RTS. The only thing that matters is to win, no matter how. Today Naniwa lost. GOM pays out what the players have earned. He earned his spot in this tournament. GOM thinks Naniwa lost with his behaviour today the privilege to get invited into their invitationals. I don't agree with that but I can't argue with that. It's their right. Though he can still play in the open competition because he's got the skills and the players are not arbitrarily evaluated for something not related to skills. Did you ignorant hypocrite even think about what you wrote? How am I a hypocrite? When did I say we have to tell the players how to play the game? Did you even read my post? What Naniwa did was not playing the game. That was blatantly throwing the game. Are you honestly going to try to convince me that probe rushing is a legitimate way to play SC2? What he did is like a football/soccer/basketball player literally handing the ball to the other team every time he touches it. Naniwa did not play the game. He threw it. You said it yourself, "The only thing that matters is to win, no matter how." Are you honestly under the belief that probe rushing shows Naniwa's attempt to win? If your answers are yes then we disagree on fundamental grounds of what is a game of SC2. Unless I'm mistaken, GOM paid for his trip/stay to Korea. We as the viewers pay GOM to finance their tournament, which in turn includes expenses incurred by Naniwa that GOM foots. Even if Naniwa never touched a single GOM dollar, as a progamer, playing SC2 is his job and he needs to treat it as such. You said Naniwa doesn't play for himself which means he plays for someone else (the viewers, sponsors, GOMTV, you, aliens hacking into our satellites). Thus we could theoretically tell him what builds to use. Which is stupid. He plays for himself and gets payed for results and not weather you like him or not. Yes, Naniwa threw the game but he played it. Workerrushes are legitimate. Catz drone rushes all the time. In the beta SCV rushes were popular when they had 60hp. Probes have shields and theoretically should never die because of it. We can't ban people for using stupid builds. Probe rushing is stupid just like 1Base colossus in PvP which is proven to be the weakest 1base because play yet we still see it occasionally. The thing is we can't tell them how to play. Naniwa playing Nestea was equivalent to playing a 5th set in a Bo5 when you are already down 0-4. He was out of the tournament just like Nestea. If Nestea would have had a shot at advancing to the next round I'm sure Naniwa would have at least tried to prevent that happening though we will never find out. I don't know if Gom paid for his trip and all but I can't imagine it because I think Complexity brought him out and now he is staying with Quantic/Startale anyway. You saw Naniwa playing 3 games and he lost those 3 in a very close fashion. You are mad Naniwa played a 1minute game instead of a 6minute game, I get that. We better send him to jail, the moon or some remote planet like pluto because he threw a really important match. Don't worry though next time he will go for a 4gate so people like you feel better that. You waste about 5minutes of your life every time this happens. I hope you like it. Your analogy to soccer, football and all is flawed. They all have a fixed playtime. This means sponsors pay that people see their banners for a certain amount of time. Ads are scheduled. This all gets planned before a season starts. So if they don't care about a game they just field B-teamers or play some chess on grass. GOM got the chance to show the logos of their sponsors for all games that were scheduled. Lol the first part of your post is just...so logically inconsistent. Just because we pay to see him play doesn't mean we can tell him how to play. I pay to get cable/tickets to a ball game; they play to win championships for themselves and I don't get to tell them how to play. What Naniwa did was not legitimate way to play. There is absolutely 0 chance of winning with a worker rush unless you completely outclass your opponent. SCV rushes and drone rushes that Catz does is a cheese that have a chance to win because guess what? They aren't rushes with your starting 6 workers. SCV rushes in beta involved marines and had a ridiculously high winrate hence the SCV nerf. Just saying. I guess we disagree on the fundamental grounds of what it means to play SC2. You are under the delusion that probe rushing is a legitimate strategy that has a chance of winning. I, and everyone else hating on Naniwa for this, believes that worker rushing with your first 6 workers has absolutely no chance of winning and is basically throwing the game. What Naniwa did was not a "stupid build;" he didnt even fucking play SC2. I'm not mad Naniwa played a 1 minute game not 6. No one is. We are mad because Naniwa didn't play. He threw the game. He disrespected the profession of pro-gaming. He disrespected his job. He refused to acknowledge that what he does is a job and should be treated as such. We are mad that Naniwa acted like a child rather than a professional. GOM has a fixed playtime. Sponsers do pay such that people see their banners. GSL runs on sponsorships and GSL has advertisements (unless you pay extra to remove 'em). GSL is completely scheduled out before a season starts. How exactly is my analogy to sports flawed? An above poster had a great analogy to NHL and other sports leagues. Same shit applies here. Let me show me what you wrote: "Also, to everyone who's saying it's up to Naniwa to play how he wants or "he plays for himself" or for his own interest or w/e. THAT'S NOT TRUE." I ask you again who is Naniwa playing for if not for himself? Who decides how Naniwa plays if not Naniwa himself? I know that probe rushes won't ever kill another player you just don't get what I'm saying. Or you are intentionally ignoring it but I will try one more time to explain what I mean: Naniwa played 3 games. He lost them all and thus he is out of the tournament. Then he has to play another player who is out of the competition which means it's basically a showmatch with no price money since there is no difference in price money when you place 4th or 5th. Naniwa still crushed by his losses decides he doesn't want to lie to/disappoint everybody and show an half-assed performance which is not indicative of anything because he wouldn't use one of his really well-prepared builds but just forfeits this showmatch. And now people shit all over him because the stream ended 5 minutes earlier than it would if he played like a bronze leaguer and a-moved his 4gate across the map for Nestea to clean up. Your analogy is flawed because you don't know how long the games will last. A best of 7 can end as early as 30minutes or lasts as long as 6 goddamn hours (i.e. TvT). This is very different from sports like soccer. Here you have 2x45 minutes playtime + 15minute break + overtime (2x 0-6 minutes extra). So a soccer match will have about 90minutes of playtime with fixed break inbetween. Quantic's sponsors had their exposure with Naniwa participating and Gomtv's sponsors got robbed of 5minutes of air time, big deal. Progaming is not a 9-to-5 job. Naniwa played his games today and lost. End of story. I understand people are disappointed but I don't understand people hunting him with a pitchfork. I still need explanations on how he disrespected anyone expect for his fans. He didn't fix a match or anything. 1. Do you know how much it cost to have 5min of air time? People pay millions to have their 30s Ad during a super bowl game. Blizzard Cup is the SuperBowl of Starcraft 2 so don't be ignorant of the severity of being 'robbed 5 minute of air time'. 2. Fans have the right to be upset. You would be upset too if your favorite hockey/football team starts throwing games (Playing without a goalie, tripping on the puck) because the team have no way to gain enough points for playoffs. How would you expect the sponsors to continue sponsoring the team/player? 3. Pros play to show their skills and because they love the game. Naniwa did neither of that.
1. The thing is you don't know how long a Starcraft match is gonna last anyway. So I can't imagine that GOM is payed for duration of the games.
2. Those teams have incentives to play these games. They get payed for the time they are on air. In starcraft 2 the big money is the price money of tournaments. And that last game gave Naniwa no incentive to play it. Nestea would have played it because he knew what shitstorm would come regardless if he agrees with it or not.
3. I disagree. Naniwa played 3 solid games. He lost. He already lost when he had to face Nestea. You don't play games 4 and 5 in a best of 5 when you are down 0-3.
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On December 14 2011 12:56 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 12:46 mrdx wrote:
I hope Boxer will never have to play against Naniwa. It'd be an insult for Lim Yo-hwan, who devoted his entire life and passion to entertain the fans, having to be in the same game against a selfish immature player like Naniwa. He devoted his life to winning, when he could no longer do that, it became a matter of entertainment. Would a player out to entertain bunker-rush every game in a final? Sorry to pick on you, but this deifying is just too much.
You obviously don't know Boxer very well  As a matter of fact sometimes Boxer chose to be entertaining/creative over playing it safe/practical, even in tournament finals when there's everything on the line. Whenever asked why he would go with a riskier play, he would always answer that it was for the fans.
Actually if you read Korean progamers' interviews not just Boxer, the one phrase that they repeat a lot in almost every interview is "for the fans". I will try harder for my fans, I will put up better games next time for my fans, I will very my play to make it more entertaining for my fans.
That mindset is completely different from "when winning does not advance me to the next round, I can't play at my best, thus I can just quit the game" way of seeing it. While it's a valid argument, it's an absolutely alien idea to the Koreans. That's why they were so angry, and having been following the proscene in SK for many years myself, I understand and agree with the anger.
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On December 14 2011 16:31 haduken wrote:
What he did was basically saying fuck you nestea, you are not worthy of my play time -_-
Eh.. It was not like that at all... It was more like Naniwa not wanting to play Nestea cause it was a chance that he could lose. People must understand that he was allready low on confidence after his previous games, he didnt want to risk losing to Nestea as well in a legitamate game. There is problably alot of prestige going on there after Providence. I think that prestige in it self should give a player motivation to play his best, but he didnt want to risk it. In interviews he says that he didnt have motivation to play, but I think the real reason he did what he did is cowardice
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Ive said this before but I will say it again. Naniwa do not play for the fans or sponsors etc. Naniwa is a competative gamer, he plays to win. Sponsors and teams pay him due to him being a good player that bring value to them. Fans watch because they want to se high skilled, competative games, not a clown whos purpose is to entertain them.
If people cry about this, do not watch naniwas games, but we all know that wont happen.
The players are not there to please the fans, they are there to play competative and thats what made sc2 and esport so huge.
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On December 14 2011 16:58 purpose wrote:
he plays to win.
Why shouldn't he play to win in everything he's in? Fans are happy, organizers are happy, and he SHOULD be happy.
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On December 14 2011 17:05 Zic wrote:Why shouldn't he play to win in everything he's in? Fans are happy, organizers are happy, and he SHOULD be happy.
But why should he be expected to put in a huge effort in a game that is pointless when he just lost 3 games in a bad way and probably is just devastated about it? How can people demand so much from a progamer and not respect that they put alot of effort into games and when they lose the way naniwa did, he migth not want to play a stupied pointless humiliating game for last place just to please a few fans?
I mean serious now, how much better would it have been if Nani done a half assed 4 gate and failed? how would that have been better and how could people have been happy about that? Now nani made a statement towards the organizers and that was epic.
No one can demand from naniwa that he must pull of some pro strat executed well in such a game. You have to respect that he in such a situation are just feed up and dont want to play. So seeing him do a probe rush or see him try to do a mediocre 4 gate I just cant see the difference.
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On December 14 2011 16:31 haduken wrote:
What he did was basically saying fuck you nestea, you are not worthy of my play time -_-
Lol no? What he did was saying "This shit in pointless and isn't worth anything to either of us so fuck it".
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I don't understand why people keep saying this game shouldn't have been played? Every tournament as its own format and when you register for a specific tournament you have to know what the format is right? By accepting an invitation you have to play every game the format makes you play. If you don't agree with that then don't register... every game has to be play no matter if it's meaningless for you and your opponent. The thing is everyone will remember this particular game as if it's the only one Naniwa played and you can't blame them for that.
With that kind of behaviour (and stop the "if Idra'ld have done that everyone would have loved him..." it's bullshit, nobody would love someone probe/drone rushing in a tournament game except Naniwa's fans) we all see a bitter Naniwa who thought he was gonna stomp his group and prouve to the world he's the best player in the world but get stomp himself and fall from his dream. And even if it's not the reality it's how people look at him right now because of ONE very poor decision.
Meaningless games are games nontheless and it's not because you're not in the mental state to play your A-game that you have any right on what the tournament you registered in ask you to do. You've checked in, you need to commit yourself to the people who spend times to potentially give you cash and fame. It's a job, sometimes there is no fun doing what it require but that's it, you need to do it.
Naniwa said that if it could be undone he wouldn't have probe rushing. Please, if you're a Naniwa fan, stop saying the decision he made was the right one, it's not and Naniwa agree with that. Naniwa hurt himself pretty badly and needs support to recover from that but please do not encourage a behaviour hurting your favorite player whoever he is.
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EPT
