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Please keep this thread on topic. It's ok to discuss the professionalism of what happened, but don't turn this thread into personal attacks or it will be closed. |
This is wrong. If you're payed to play you fucking play. It's like any other job. When you get paid, you do what you're supposed to do regardless of how you feel about it. If you feel it's pointless, you find another job. That's all there is to it. If Naniwa thinks he can't play a good game with his all, that's fine. But you still play. If esports wants to be seen as legitimate, this shit can't be encouraged. In other sports leagues, when teams know they can't make championships or playoffs, do they throw every game? No, they keep playing and they do their best. Naniwa acted like an immature little kid throwing a tantrum. Even Idra doesn't do stupid crap like this. Naniwa is a great player and definitely has potential to be amongst the best progamers. He now needs to act it.
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On December 14 2011 13:42 W2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 13:24 Ravomat wrote:On December 14 2011 13:05 W2 wrote:On December 14 2011 12:48 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 12:39 On_Slaught wrote:
If the match didn't matter, why did QxG (Naniwa's team) hype it up?
I think we need a good answer to this question before we can even entertain arguments about a match not mattering somehow meaning you throw professionalism out the window. A glorified show match is still a match that has a huge imapct on what people around the world think about you and your team. It didn't matter in the context of the competition. Naniwa is player who strives hard to be the best player in the world. Which is why a match for the fourth place in the group is meaningless to him. Remember, though you may see rivalry between naniwa and nestea, naniwa may not. That's why people are saying naniwa is selfish. He only acts according to his own benefit/gain. It's meaningless to him, but what about gomtv, the essence of competition, and the thousands of people who would die to be in his spot right now, playing against nestea on tv? He cheapens the privilege of sitting in the booth and being a pro-gamer. Why would anyone ever do something which is not in his interest? He plays for himself not for you. Also there was no more competition when he probe rushed, he was out just like Nestea. Be glad he did waste a little less time of your life with that probe rush than with a half-assed game. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like seeing a 6minute game that doesn't change anything in the competition. Also it's a little far-fetched to say he cheapens the privilege of being a pro. He earned his spot and fought his way through to this point. Today he lost, end of story. To answer your "cleverly" worded first question: everybody except Naniwa. (Greg included, even he would not disrespect gomtv that way). Can you think of any single pro who would do what Naniwa did?
Wrong. Everyone does only what is in his interest. If a player who is already out of the competition has to play another match but doesn't want to get shit for throwing a match he will play half-assed basically like a mid-masters. You don't want to see that. You want to see the best of the best going at it giving their best, especially if it's a tournament with the Gomtv logo on it. This was not given in that situation. He didn't think of the consequences which actually shows his dedication. He was still reflecting on the 3 games he played before. So he might not have satisfied your expectations but at least he was honest about it.
Next time he will just 4gate to avoid this shitstorm. I'm sure this doesn't help anyone.
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Also, to everyone who's saying it's up to Naniwa to play how he wants or "he plays for himself" or for his own interest or w/e. THAT'S NOT TRUE.
GOM pays Naniwa. We pay GOM. We pay good money to see people play games. Even if the games aren't good, we still paid to see him play. He's playing for us, not himself. This is his job and as such it demands a level of professionalism that he has not displayed.
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On December 14 2011 13:59 Ryuu314 wrote:
Also, to everyone who's saying it's up to Naniwa to play how he wants or "he plays for himself" or for his own interest or w/e. THAT'S NOT TRUE.
GOM pays Naniwa. We pay GOM. We pay good money to see people play games. Even if the games aren't good, we still paid to see him play. He's playing for us, not himself. This is his job and as such it demands a level of professionalism that he has not displayed.
Cool. Let's tell all the players how to play the game. Tired of seeing bunker rushes in TvZ? No problem tell the players are not allowed to. Tired of seeing 4gate vs 4gate in PvP? Tell them to stop. Wait we tried that. It didn't work. The 4gate wars in PvP lasted about 6months. We couldn't fucking tell them to stop. It doesn't work that way in RTS. The only thing that matters is to win, no matter how. Today Naniwa lost.
GOM pays out what the players have earned. He earned his spot in this tournament. GOM thinks Naniwa lost with his behaviour today the privilege to get invited into their invitationals. I don't agree with that but I can't argue with that. It's their right. Though he can still play in the open competition because he's got the skills and the players are not arbitrarily evaluated for something not related to skills.
Did you ignorant hypocrite even think about what you wrote?
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On December 14 2011 13:56 Ravomat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 13:42 W2 wrote:On December 14 2011 13:24 Ravomat wrote:On December 14 2011 13:05 W2 wrote:On December 14 2011 12:48 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 12:39 On_Slaught wrote:
If the match didn't matter, why did QxG (Naniwa's team) hype it up?
I think we need a good answer to this question before we can even entertain arguments about a match not mattering somehow meaning you throw professionalism out the window. A glorified show match is still a match that has a huge imapct on what people around the world think about you and your team. It didn't matter in the context of the competition. Naniwa is player who strives hard to be the best player in the world. Which is why a match for the fourth place in the group is meaningless to him. Remember, though you may see rivalry between naniwa and nestea, naniwa may not. That's why people are saying naniwa is selfish. He only acts according to his own benefit/gain. It's meaningless to him, but what about gomtv, the essence of competition, and the thousands of people who would die to be in his spot right now, playing against nestea on tv? He cheapens the privilege of sitting in the booth and being a pro-gamer. Why would anyone ever do something which is not in his interest? He plays for himself not for you. Also there was no more competition when he probe rushed, he was out just like Nestea. Be glad he did waste a little less time of your life with that probe rush than with a half-assed game. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like seeing a 6minute game that doesn't change anything in the competition. Also it's a little far-fetched to say he cheapens the privilege of being a pro. He earned his spot and fought his way through to this point. Today he lost, end of story. To answer your "cleverly" worded first question: everybody except Naniwa. (Greg included, even he would not disrespect gomtv that way). Can you think of any single pro who would do what Naniwa did? Wrong. Everyone does only what is in his interest. If a player who is already out of the competition has to play another match but doesn't want to get shit for throwing a match he will play half-assed basically like a mid-masters. You don't want to see that. You want to see the best of the best going at it giving their best, especially if it's a tournament with the Gomtv logo on it. This was not given in that situation. He didn't think of the consequences which actually shows his dedication. He was still reflecting on the 3 games he played before. So he might not have satisfied your expectations but at least he was honest about it. Next time he will just 4gate to avoid this shitstorm. I'm sure this doesn't help anyone.
There are plenty of crappy games in GSL, look through the VOD archives, you'll see many mid-master games with players blocking their own nexus, half assing a 4gate, etc.
But can you find a single VOD of a probe rush?
Sure, Greg or Chris in the same situation may not play their best game, but they sure as hell wouldn't probe rush. It's blatant disrespect. At least if you are half-assing it, there's many ways to interpret it, and the tournament will still save some face. If you 1a your probes like that, there's no room for interpretation, you are slapping them in the face for all to see.
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Oh guess what? The pros agreed with me and disagreed with all of you. Funny how that works out...
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Has Naniwa handled any public situation gracefully? Why are people surprised?
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On December 14 2011 14:12 Ravomat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 13:59 Ryuu314 wrote:
Also, to everyone who's saying it's up to Naniwa to play how he wants or "he plays for himself" or for his own interest or w/e. THAT'S NOT TRUE.
GOM pays Naniwa. We pay GOM. We pay good money to see people play games. Even if the games aren't good, we still paid to see him play. He's playing for us, not himself. This is his job and as such it demands a level of professionalism that he has not displayed. Cool. Let's tell all the players how to play the game. Tired of seeing bunker rushes in TvZ? No problem tell the players are not allowed to. Tired of seeing 4gate vs 4gate in PvP? Tell them to stop. Wait we tried that. It didn't work. The 4gate wars in PvP lasted about 6months. We couldn't fucking tell them to stop. It doesn't work that way in RTS. The only thing that matters is to win, no matter how. Today Naniwa lost. GOM pays out what the players have earned. He earned his spot in this tournament. GOM thinks Naniwa lost with his behaviour today the privilege to get invited into their invitationals. I don't agree with that but I can't argue with that. It's their right. Though he can still play in the open competition because he's got the skills and the players are not arbitrarily evaluated for something not related to skills. Did you ignorant hypocrite even think about what you wrote?
How am I a hypocrite? When did I say we have to tell the players how to play the game? Did you even read my post?
What Naniwa did was not playing the game. That was blatantly throwing the game. Are you honestly going to try to convince me that probe rushing is a legitimate way to play SC2? What he did is like a football/soccer/basketball player literally handing the ball to the other team every time he touches it. Naniwa did not play the game. He threw it.
You said it yourself, "The only thing that matters is to win, no matter how." Are you honestly under the belief that probe rushing shows Naniwa's attempt to win?
If your answers are yes then we disagree on fundamental grounds of what is a game of SC2.
Unless I'm mistaken, GOM paid for his trip/stay to Korea. We as the viewers pay GOM to finance their tournament, which in turn includes expenses incurred by Naniwa that GOM foots. Even if Naniwa never touched a single GOM dollar, as a progamer, playing SC2 is his job and he needs to treat it as such.
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I agree with the OP. He threw the game on purpose, which goes against his obligations as a progamer. They are paid to play the game, to fulfill an obligation of providing competition for the audience to see. He did not fulfill his obligations, of at least providing some sort of match for us to follow. Now, I wouldn't mind if he mucks around and experiment with strange builds, strange unit mixes, since nothing is at stake, but he put in no effort to play this game he is paid by sponsors to play.
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On December 14 2011 14:18 W2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 13:56 Ravomat wrote:On December 14 2011 13:42 W2 wrote:On December 14 2011 13:24 Ravomat wrote:On December 14 2011 13:05 W2 wrote:On December 14 2011 12:48 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 12:39 On_Slaught wrote:
If the match didn't matter, why did QxG (Naniwa's team) hype it up?
I think we need a good answer to this question before we can even entertain arguments about a match not mattering somehow meaning you throw professionalism out the window. A glorified show match is still a match that has a huge imapct on what people around the world think about you and your team. It didn't matter in the context of the competition. Naniwa is player who strives hard to be the best player in the world. Which is why a match for the fourth place in the group is meaningless to him. Remember, though you may see rivalry between naniwa and nestea, naniwa may not. That's why people are saying naniwa is selfish. He only acts according to his own benefit/gain. It's meaningless to him, but what about gomtv, the essence of competition, and the thousands of people who would die to be in his spot right now, playing against nestea on tv? He cheapens the privilege of sitting in the booth and being a pro-gamer. Why would anyone ever do something which is not in his interest? He plays for himself not for you. Also there was no more competition when he probe rushed, he was out just like Nestea. Be glad he did waste a little less time of your life with that probe rush than with a half-assed game. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like seeing a 6minute game that doesn't change anything in the competition. Also it's a little far-fetched to say he cheapens the privilege of being a pro. He earned his spot and fought his way through to this point. Today he lost, end of story. To answer your "cleverly" worded first question: everybody except Naniwa. (Greg included, even he would not disrespect gomtv that way). Can you think of any single pro who would do what Naniwa did? Wrong. Everyone does only what is in his interest. If a player who is already out of the competition has to play another match but doesn't want to get shit for throwing a match he will play half-assed basically like a mid-masters. You don't want to see that. You want to see the best of the best going at it giving their best, especially if it's a tournament with the Gomtv logo on it. This was not given in that situation. He didn't think of the consequences which actually shows his dedication. He was still reflecting on the 3 games he played before. So he might not have satisfied your expectations but at least he was honest about it. Next time he will just 4gate to avoid this shitstorm. I'm sure this doesn't help anyone. There are plenty of crappy games in GSL, look through the VOD archives, you'll see many mid-master games with players blocking their own nexus, half assing a 4gate, etc. But can you find a single VOD of a probe rush? Sure, Greg or Chris in the same situation may not play their best game, but they sure as hell wouldn't probe rush. It's blatant disrespect. At least if you are half-assing it, there's many ways to interpret it, and the tournament will still save some face. If you 1a your probes like that, there's no room for interpretation, you are slapping them in the face for all to see.
I watch GSL since Open Season 1. I have seen like 90% of all games played with a GSL logo on it. I know about those games. I didn't like it.
So you wanna get lied at. This is stupid. I mean you are stupid if you want this. If he was Zerg he would have 6pooled or drone rushed and you couldn't have said shit against it. He would have still lost and you would have known he threw the game. The format should be changed to avoid things like this. You shouldn't shit on a player who give it all but lost.
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On December 14 2011 14:30 Ravomat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 14:18 W2 wrote:On December 14 2011 13:56 Ravomat wrote:On December 14 2011 13:42 W2 wrote:On December 14 2011 13:24 Ravomat wrote:On December 14 2011 13:05 W2 wrote:On December 14 2011 12:48 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 12:39 On_Slaught wrote:
If the match didn't matter, why did QxG (Naniwa's team) hype it up?
I think we need a good answer to this question before we can even entertain arguments about a match not mattering somehow meaning you throw professionalism out the window. A glorified show match is still a match that has a huge imapct on what people around the world think about you and your team. It didn't matter in the context of the competition. Naniwa is player who strives hard to be the best player in the world. Which is why a match for the fourth place in the group is meaningless to him. Remember, though you may see rivalry between naniwa and nestea, naniwa may not. That's why people are saying naniwa is selfish. He only acts according to his own benefit/gain. It's meaningless to him, but what about gomtv, the essence of competition, and the thousands of people who would die to be in his spot right now, playing against nestea on tv? He cheapens the privilege of sitting in the booth and being a pro-gamer. Why would anyone ever do something which is not in his interest? He plays for himself not for you. Also there was no more competition when he probe rushed, he was out just like Nestea. Be glad he did waste a little less time of your life with that probe rush than with a half-assed game. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like seeing a 6minute game that doesn't change anything in the competition. Also it's a little far-fetched to say he cheapens the privilege of being a pro. He earned his spot and fought his way through to this point. Today he lost, end of story. To answer your "cleverly" worded first question: everybody except Naniwa. (Greg included, even he would not disrespect gomtv that way). Can you think of any single pro who would do what Naniwa did? Wrong. Everyone does only what is in his interest. If a player who is already out of the competition has to play another match but doesn't want to get shit for throwing a match he will play half-assed basically like a mid-masters. You don't want to see that. You want to see the best of the best going at it giving their best, especially if it's a tournament with the Gomtv logo on it. This was not given in that situation. He didn't think of the consequences which actually shows his dedication. He was still reflecting on the 3 games he played before. So he might not have satisfied your expectations but at least he was honest about it. Next time he will just 4gate to avoid this shitstorm. I'm sure this doesn't help anyone. There are plenty of crappy games in GSL, look through the VOD archives, you'll see many mid-master games with players blocking their own nexus, half assing a 4gate, etc. But can you find a single VOD of a probe rush? Sure, Greg or Chris in the same situation may not play their best game, but they sure as hell wouldn't probe rush. It's blatant disrespect. At least if you are half-assing it, there's many ways to interpret it, and the tournament will still save some face. If you 1a your probes like that, there's no room for interpretation, you are slapping them in the face for all to see. I watch GSL since Open Season 1. I have seen like 90% of all games played with a GSL logo on it. I know about those games. I didn't like it. So you wanna get lied at. This is stupid. I mean you are stupid if you want this. If he was Zerg he would have 6pooled or drone rushed and you couldn't have said shit against it. He would have still lost and you would have known he threw the game. The format should be changed to avoid things like this. You shouldn't shit on a player who give it all but lost.
There's a difference between 6 pooling and worker rushing. When someone 6pools or cheeses, there's always a chance of victory no matter how small. When someone worker rushes, unless the opponent is bronze level, there is no chance of victory.
If Naniwa 4gated or 6pooled or w/e. He still would've lost, people would still give him flak, but at the very least he tried, albeit minimally. With a worker rush he didn't even play the damn game. Actually, no, it would've been better if he didn't play the game and just forfeited and walked out of the GOM studio. What he did was basically a giant fuck you and mockery of the entire concept of progaming.
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Ok here are my thoughts on this(which no one is going to read or care about but I digress)
Anyone that has any experience in the BW pro scene would know that meaningless games happen ALL THE TIME. Especially in the individual leagues.
You don't throw a match. You don't even do a stupid strat like a 4gate or a proxy 2 gate. Both are really BM imo.
What you do as a player in this situation is you play extremely standard the best you possibly can. You don't use your best strategies, but you give a good solid performance with standard play. This is pretty much the playbook for these types of situations. You don't show your best strats because you play like everyone else does, but you still give your best effort, and it's exciting for the fans.
I feel like Naniwa has a good chance of being penalized quite heavily for this, so he should really think before he acts.
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How can people defend his attitude. Its simply and purely not tolerable from a programer in a very prestigious tournament, facing one of the better player at this game. I watch BW proscene since early 2000 and never seen such bullshit. Esports is growing slowly, and the last thing we need is that kind of childish and unprofessional behaviour.
At least try a 4gate, i dont know...Im very upset. I cant stand this idra'ish way to do.
We dont care about his apologies. Naniwa should be fired. Thats it...
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Pretty pathetic attitude for a professional gamer. Disappointing to say the least. I admire his skill level esp given the fact he was ex wc3 but he needs to improve his attitude in order to be the best.
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WTF Naniwa. I paid good money to see that match. Thanks for making foreigners look bad. I can't wait to see you get knocked out of Code S.
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On December 14 2011 14:30 Ravomat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 14:18 W2 wrote:On December 14 2011 13:56 Ravomat wrote:On December 14 2011 13:42 W2 wrote:On December 14 2011 13:24 Ravomat wrote:On December 14 2011 13:05 W2 wrote:On December 14 2011 12:48 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 12:39 On_Slaught wrote:
If the match didn't matter, why did QxG (Naniwa's team) hype it up?
I think we need a good answer to this question before we can even entertain arguments about a match not mattering somehow meaning you throw professionalism out the window. A glorified show match is still a match that has a huge imapct on what people around the world think about you and your team. It didn't matter in the context of the competition. Naniwa is player who strives hard to be the best player in the world. Which is why a match for the fourth place in the group is meaningless to him. Remember, though you may see rivalry between naniwa and nestea, naniwa may not. That's why people are saying naniwa is selfish. He only acts according to his own benefit/gain. It's meaningless to him, but what about gomtv, the essence of competition, and the thousands of people who would die to be in his spot right now, playing against nestea on tv? He cheapens the privilege of sitting in the booth and being a pro-gamer. Why would anyone ever do something which is not in his interest? He plays for himself not for you. Also there was no more competition when he probe rushed, he was out just like Nestea. Be glad he did waste a little less time of your life with that probe rush than with a half-assed game. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like seeing a 6minute game that doesn't change anything in the competition. Also it's a little far-fetched to say he cheapens the privilege of being a pro. He earned his spot and fought his way through to this point. Today he lost, end of story. To answer your "cleverly" worded first question: everybody except Naniwa. (Greg included, even he would not disrespect gomtv that way). Can you think of any single pro who would do what Naniwa did? Wrong. Everyone does only what is in his interest. If a player who is already out of the competition has to play another match but doesn't want to get shit for throwing a match he will play half-assed basically like a mid-masters. You don't want to see that. You want to see the best of the best going at it giving their best, especially if it's a tournament with the Gomtv logo on it. This was not given in that situation. He didn't think of the consequences which actually shows his dedication. He was still reflecting on the 3 games he played before. So he might not have satisfied your expectations but at least he was honest about it. Next time he will just 4gate to avoid this shitstorm. I'm sure this doesn't help anyone. There are plenty of crappy games in GSL, look through the VOD archives, you'll see many mid-master games with players blocking their own nexus, half assing a 4gate, etc. But can you find a single VOD of a probe rush? Sure, Greg or Chris in the same situation may not play their best game, but they sure as hell wouldn't probe rush. It's blatant disrespect. At least if you are half-assing it, there's many ways to interpret it, and the tournament will still save some face. If you 1a your probes like that, there's no room for interpretation, you are slapping them in the face for all to see. I watch GSL since Open Season 1. I have seen like 90% of all games played with a GSL logo on it. I know about those games. I didn't like it. So you wanna get lied at. This is stupid. I mean you are stupid if you want this. If he was Zerg he would have 6pooled or drone rushed and you couldn't have said shit against it. He would have still lost and you would have known he threw the game. The format should be changed to avoid things like this. You shouldn't shit on a player who give it all but lost.
Finally got you mad enough to insult me lol 
Never once did I talk about what "I" want as a spectator. I was explaining how Naniwa was selfish and harmed the image of gomtv and everything the match represents: korean pro-gaming, the paying subscribers, etc. That has nothing to do with what I personally want as a spectator.
If he 6 pooled or 4 gated, it would have been much better because there is still a chance to win. July won with a 6 pool a couple of times in GSL.
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On December 14 2011 13:14 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 13:05 W2 wrote:On December 14 2011 12:48 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 12:39 On_Slaught wrote:
If the match didn't matter, why did QxG (Naniwa's team) hype it up?
I think we need a good answer to this question before we can even entertain arguments about a match not mattering somehow meaning you throw professionalism out the window. A glorified show match is still a match that has a huge imapct on what people around the world think about you and your team. It didn't matter in the context of the competition. Naniwa is player who strives hard to be the best player in the world. Which is why a match for the fourth place in the group is meaningless to him. Remember, though you may see rivalry between naniwa and nestea, naniwa may not. That's why people are saying naniwa is selfish. He only acts according to his own benefit/gain. It's meaningless to him, but what about gomtv, the essence of competition, and the thousands of people who would die to be in his spot right now, playing against nestea on tv? He cheapens the privilege of sitting in the booth and being a pro-gamer. He acts according to his own perspective, and failing to take into account what some expect of him (clearly, it's a subset of viewers that feel this way) may certainly be said to be selfish. But again, remember that he may not see the situation the way you do. What you're asking is that he 'puts on a show', and plays out the match, for the sake of the viewers. But if to naniwa what is important is to be the best, and to compete for being the best, to pretend-play may be what cheapens the tournament. If what you want is a show for the sake of the show, naniwa probably isn't the right person to ask. You may not like this, but maybe you can understand it.
Do you realize why an NHL hockey team can't just simply forfeit a game? There is a lot more than just the viewers that relies on having a show. At the professional level, (a.k.a past local or smaller leagues and tournaments where this kind of stuff is tolerated), there are obligations an athlete needs to fulfill in order to be wanted in the business. Ultimately, Naniwa hurt himself the most. No one should be outraged by this except for the people who lost money because of this (which fortunately probably isn't a fortune at this point), so everyone should calm down and not feel personally hurt.
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On December 14 2011 14:24 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 14:12 Ravomat wrote:On December 14 2011 13:59 Ryuu314 wrote:
Also, to everyone who's saying it's up to Naniwa to play how he wants or "he plays for himself" or for his own interest or w/e. THAT'S NOT TRUE.
GOM pays Naniwa. We pay GOM. We pay good money to see people play games. Even if the games aren't good, we still paid to see him play. He's playing for us, not himself. This is his job and as such it demands a level of professionalism that he has not displayed. Cool. Let's tell all the players how to play the game. Tired of seeing bunker rushes in TvZ? No problem tell the players are not allowed to. Tired of seeing 4gate vs 4gate in PvP? Tell them to stop. Wait we tried that. It didn't work. The 4gate wars in PvP lasted about 6months. We couldn't fucking tell them to stop. It doesn't work that way in RTS. The only thing that matters is to win, no matter how. Today Naniwa lost. GOM pays out what the players have earned. He earned his spot in this tournament. GOM thinks Naniwa lost with his behaviour today the privilege to get invited into their invitationals. I don't agree with that but I can't argue with that. It's their right. Though he can still play in the open competition because he's got the skills and the players are not arbitrarily evaluated for something not related to skills. Did you ignorant hypocrite even think about what you wrote? How am I a hypocrite? When did I say we have to tell the players how to play the game? Did you even read my post? What Naniwa did was not playing the game. That was blatantly throwing the game. Are you honestly going to try to convince me that probe rushing is a legitimate way to play SC2? What he did is like a football/soccer/basketball player literally handing the ball to the other team every time he touches it. Naniwa did not play the game. He threw it. You said it yourself, "The only thing that matters is to win, no matter how." Are you honestly under the belief that probe rushing shows Naniwa's attempt to win? If your answers are yes then we disagree on fundamental grounds of what is a game of SC2. Unless I'm mistaken, GOM paid for his trip/stay to Korea. We as the viewers pay GOM to finance their tournament, which in turn includes expenses incurred by Naniwa that GOM foots. Even if Naniwa never touched a single GOM dollar, as a progamer, playing SC2 is his job and he needs to treat it as such.
You said Naniwa doesn't play for himself which means he plays for someone else (the viewers, sponsors, GOMTV, you, aliens hacking into our satellites). Thus we could theoretically tell him what builds to use. Which is stupid. He plays for himself and gets payed for results and not weather you like him or not.
Yes, Naniwa threw the game but he played it. Workerrushes are legitimate. Catz drone rushes all the time. In the beta SCV rushes were popular when they had 60hp. Probes have shields and theoretically should never die because of it. We can't ban people for using stupid builds. Probe rushing is stupid just like 1Base colossus in PvP which is proven to be the weakest 1base because play yet we still see it occasionally. The thing is we can't tell them how to play.
Naniwa playing Nestea was equivalent to playing a 5th set in a Bo5 when you are already down 0-4. He was out of the tournament just like Nestea. If Nestea would have had a shot at advancing to the next round I'm sure Naniwa would have at least tried to prevent that happening though we will never find out.
I don't know if Gom paid for his trip and all but I can't imagine it because I think Complexity brought him out and now he is staying with Quantic/Startale anyway. You saw Naniwa playing 3 games and he lost those 3 in a very close fashion.
You are mad Naniwa played a 1minute game instead of a 6minute game, I get that. We better send him to jail, the moon or some remote planet like pluto because he threw a really important match. Don't worry though next time he will go for a 4gate so people like you feel better that. You waste about 5minutes of your life every time this happens. I hope you like it.
Your analogy to soccer, football and all is flawed. They all have a fixed playtime. This means sponsors pay that people see their banners for a certain amount of time. Ads are scheduled. This all gets planned before a season starts. So if they don't care about a game they just field B-teamers or play some chess on grass. GOM got the chance to show the logos of their sponsors for all games that were scheduled.
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On December 14 2011 15:04 TheKK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 13:14 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 13:05 W2 wrote:On December 14 2011 12:48 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 12:39 On_Slaught wrote:
If the match didn't matter, why did QxG (Naniwa's team) hype it up?
I think we need a good answer to this question before we can even entertain arguments about a match not mattering somehow meaning you throw professionalism out the window. A glorified show match is still a match that has a huge imapct on what people around the world think about you and your team. It didn't matter in the context of the competition. Naniwa is player who strives hard to be the best player in the world. Which is why a match for the fourth place in the group is meaningless to him. Remember, though you may see rivalry between naniwa and nestea, naniwa may not. That's why people are saying naniwa is selfish. He only acts according to his own benefit/gain. It's meaningless to him, but what about gomtv, the essence of competition, and the thousands of people who would die to be in his spot right now, playing against nestea on tv? He cheapens the privilege of sitting in the booth and being a pro-gamer. He acts according to his own perspective, and failing to take into account what some expect of him (clearly, it's a subset of viewers that feel this way) may certainly be said to be selfish. But again, remember that he may not see the situation the way you do. What you're asking is that he 'puts on a show', and plays out the match, for the sake of the viewers. But if to naniwa what is important is to be the best, and to compete for being the best, to pretend-play may be what cheapens the tournament. If what you want is a show for the sake of the show, naniwa probably isn't the right person to ask. You may not like this, but maybe you can understand it. Do you realize why an NHL hockey team can't just simply forfeit a game? There is a lot more than just the viewers that relies on having a show. At the professional level, (a.k.a past local or smaller leagues and tournaments where this kind of stuff is tolerated), there are obligations an athlete needs to fulfill in order to be wanted in the business. Ultimately, Naniwa hurt himself the most. No one should be outraged by this except for the people who lost money because of this (which fortunately probably isn't a fortune at this point), so everyone should calm down and not feel personally hurt.
People paid good money to see these games. Why shouldn't they be pissed?
On December 14 2011 15:06 Ravomat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 14:24 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 14 2011 14:12 Ravomat wrote:On December 14 2011 13:59 Ryuu314 wrote:
Also, to everyone who's saying it's up to Naniwa to play how he wants or "he plays for himself" or for his own interest or w/e. THAT'S NOT TRUE.
GOM pays Naniwa. We pay GOM. We pay good money to see people play games. Even if the games aren't good, we still paid to see him play. He's playing for us, not himself. This is his job and as such it demands a level of professionalism that he has not displayed. Cool. Let's tell all the players how to play the game. Tired of seeing bunker rushes in TvZ? No problem tell the players are not allowed to. Tired of seeing 4gate vs 4gate in PvP? Tell them to stop. Wait we tried that. It didn't work. The 4gate wars in PvP lasted about 6months. We couldn't fucking tell them to stop. It doesn't work that way in RTS. The only thing that matters is to win, no matter how. Today Naniwa lost. GOM pays out what the players have earned. He earned his spot in this tournament. GOM thinks Naniwa lost with his behaviour today the privilege to get invited into their invitationals. I don't agree with that but I can't argue with that. It's their right. Though he can still play in the open competition because he's got the skills and the players are not arbitrarily evaluated for something not related to skills. Did you ignorant hypocrite even think about what you wrote? How am I a hypocrite? When did I say we have to tell the players how to play the game? Did you even read my post? What Naniwa did was not playing the game. That was blatantly throwing the game. Are you honestly going to try to convince me that probe rushing is a legitimate way to play SC2? What he did is like a football/soccer/basketball player literally handing the ball to the other team every time he touches it. Naniwa did not play the game. He threw it. You said it yourself, "The only thing that matters is to win, no matter how." Are you honestly under the belief that probe rushing shows Naniwa's attempt to win? If your answers are yes then we disagree on fundamental grounds of what is a game of SC2. Unless I'm mistaken, GOM paid for his trip/stay to Korea. We as the viewers pay GOM to finance their tournament, which in turn includes expenses incurred by Naniwa that GOM foots. Even if Naniwa never touched a single GOM dollar, as a progamer, playing SC2 is his job and he needs to treat it as such. You said Naniwa doesn't play for himself which means he plays for someone else (the viewers, sponsors, GOMTV, you, aliens hacking into our satellites). Thus we could theoretically tell him what builds to use. Which is stupid. He plays for himself and gets payed for results and not weather you like him or not. Yes, Naniwa threw the game but he played it. Workerrushes are legitimate. Catz drone rushes all the time. In the beta SCV rushes were popular when they had 60hp. Probes have shields and theoretically should never die because of it. We can't ban people for using stupid builds. Probe rushing is stupid just like 1Base colossus in PvP which is proven to be the weakest 1base because play yet we still see it occasionally. The thing is we can't tell them how to play. Naniwa playing Nestea was equivalent to playing a 5th set in a Bo5 when you are already down 0-4. He was out of the tournament just like Nestea. If Nestea would have had a shot at advancing to the next round I'm sure Naniwa would have at least tried to prevent that happening though we will never find out. I don't know if Gom paid for his trip and all but I can't imagine it because I think Complexity brought him out and now he is staying with Quantic/Startale anyway. You saw Naniwa playing 3 games and he lost those 3 in a very close fashion. You are mad Naniwa played a 1minute game instead of a 6minute game, I get that. We better send him to jail, the moon or some remote planet like pluto because he threw a really important match. Don't worry though next time he will go for a 4gate so people like you feel better that. You waste about 5minutes of your life every time this happens. I hope you like it. Your analogy to soccer, football and all is flawed. They all have a fixed playtime. This means sponsors pay that people see their banners for a certain amount of time. Ads are scheduled. This all gets planned before a season starts. So if they don't care about a game they just field B-teamers or play some chess on grass. GOM got the chance to show the logos of their sponsors for all games that were scheduled.
Lol the first part of your post is just...so logically inconsistent. Just because we pay to see him play doesn't mean we can tell him how to play. I pay to get cable/tickets to a ball game; they play to win championships for themselves and I don't get to tell them how to play.
What Naniwa did was not legitimate way to play. There is absolutely 0 chance of winning with a worker rush unless you completely outclass your opponent. SCV rushes and drone rushes that Catz does is a cheese that have a chance to win because guess what? They aren't rushes with your starting 6 workers. SCV rushes in beta involved marines and had a ridiculously high winrate hence the SCV nerf. Just saying. I guess we disagree on the fundamental grounds of what it means to play SC2. You are under the delusion that probe rushing is a legitimate strategy that has a chance of winning. I, and everyone else hating on Naniwa for this, believes that worker rushing with your first 6 workers has absolutely no chance of winning and is basically throwing the game. What Naniwa did was not a "stupid build;" he didnt even fucking play SC2.
I'm not mad Naniwa played a 1 minute game not 6. No one is. We are mad because Naniwa didn't play. He threw the game. He disrespected the profession of pro-gaming. He disrespected his job. He refused to acknowledge that what he does is a job and should be treated as such. We are mad that Naniwa acted like a child rather than a professional.
GOM has a fixed playtime. Sponsers do pay such that people see their banners. GSL runs on sponsorships and GSL has advertisements (unless you pay extra to remove 'em). GSL is completely scheduled out before a season starts. How exactly is my analogy to sports flawed? An above poster had a great analogy to NHL and other sports leagues. Same shit applies here.
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On December 14 2011 14:49 W2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 14:30 Ravomat wrote:On December 14 2011 14:18 W2 wrote:On December 14 2011 13:56 Ravomat wrote:On December 14 2011 13:42 W2 wrote:On December 14 2011 13:24 Ravomat wrote:On December 14 2011 13:05 W2 wrote:On December 14 2011 12:48 m0ck wrote:On December 14 2011 12:39 On_Slaught wrote:
If the match didn't matter, why did QxG (Naniwa's team) hype it up?
I think we need a good answer to this question before we can even entertain arguments about a match not mattering somehow meaning you throw professionalism out the window. A glorified show match is still a match that has a huge imapct on what people around the world think about you and your team. It didn't matter in the context of the competition. Naniwa is player who strives hard to be the best player in the world. Which is why a match for the fourth place in the group is meaningless to him. Remember, though you may see rivalry between naniwa and nestea, naniwa may not. That's why people are saying naniwa is selfish. He only acts according to his own benefit/gain. It's meaningless to him, but what about gomtv, the essence of competition, and the thousands of people who would die to be in his spot right now, playing against nestea on tv? He cheapens the privilege of sitting in the booth and being a pro-gamer. Why would anyone ever do something which is not in his interest? He plays for himself not for you. Also there was no more competition when he probe rushed, he was out just like Nestea. Be glad he did waste a little less time of your life with that probe rush than with a half-assed game. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like seeing a 6minute game that doesn't change anything in the competition. Also it's a little far-fetched to say he cheapens the privilege of being a pro. He earned his spot and fought his way through to this point. Today he lost, end of story. To answer your "cleverly" worded first question: everybody except Naniwa. (Greg included, even he would not disrespect gomtv that way). Can you think of any single pro who would do what Naniwa did? Wrong. Everyone does only what is in his interest. If a player who is already out of the competition has to play another match but doesn't want to get shit for throwing a match he will play half-assed basically like a mid-masters. You don't want to see that. You want to see the best of the best going at it giving their best, especially if it's a tournament with the Gomtv logo on it. This was not given in that situation. He didn't think of the consequences which actually shows his dedication. He was still reflecting on the 3 games he played before. So he might not have satisfied your expectations but at least he was honest about it. Next time he will just 4gate to avoid this shitstorm. I'm sure this doesn't help anyone. There are plenty of crappy games in GSL, look through the VOD archives, you'll see many mid-master games with players blocking their own nexus, half assing a 4gate, etc. But can you find a single VOD of a probe rush? Sure, Greg or Chris in the same situation may not play their best game, but they sure as hell wouldn't probe rush. It's blatant disrespect. At least if you are half-assing it, there's many ways to interpret it, and the tournament will still save some face. If you 1a your probes like that, there's no room for interpretation, you are slapping them in the face for all to see. I watch GSL since Open Season 1. I have seen like 90% of all games played with a GSL logo on it. I know about those games. I didn't like it. So you wanna get lied at. This is stupid. I mean you are stupid if you want this. If he was Zerg he would have 6pooled or drone rushed and you couldn't have said shit against it. He would have still lost and you would have known he threw the game. The format should be changed to avoid things like this. You shouldn't shit on a player who give it all but lost. Finally got you mad enough to insult me lol Never once did I talk about what "I" want as a spectator. I was explaining how Naniwa was selfish and harmed the image of gomtv and everything the match represents: korean pro-gaming, the paying subscribers, etc. That has nothing to do with what I personally want as a spectator. If he 6 pooled or 4 gated, it would have been much better because there is still a chance to win. July won with a 6 pool a couple of times in GSL.
That wasn't an attack on your person. That is a fact.
He didn't nearly deal as much damage as savior and all those people who seriously fucked shit up. I don't even understand how he caused any damage whatsover. He was out of the competition.
The point wasn't if 6pools win games, though probe rushes can win games too. Of course only if people go braindead but that happens occasionally in SC2. Didn't Nestea lose a drone before he even reacted? And what exactly was there to win for Naniwa anyway?
Fans? - He cares more about winning tournaments.
Pride? - Got shattered when he lost the previous 3 games.
A win against Nestea? - He already has a few of those on his record.
Gomtv got 3 solid games out of Naniwa. He lost. It was over. This last game shouldn't have been played.
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EPT
