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Please keep this thread on topic. It's ok to discuss the professionalism of what happened, but don't turn this thread into personal attacks or it will be closed. |
On December 14 2011 07:58 stokes17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:56 Tantaburs wrote:On December 14 2011 07:10 Skwid1g wrote:On December 14 2011 07:01 Tantaburs wrote:On December 14 2011 06:50 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 06:49 Tantaburs wrote:On December 14 2011 06:37 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 06:34 PoOxZ wrote:On December 14 2011 06:28 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 06:25 PoOxZ wrote:
The tournament shouldn't force players that are already eliminated to play. Naniwa should have cannon rushed, or 3 gate proxy, the game would be over quick and you would all still be complaining.
"you would all still be complaining" lol nope. those are unfortunately actually part of the game, and things people use to win. if nestea couldn't hold those then that's his fault for not knowing (note: I'm a nestea fan... so... whatever) however worker rushing.... Thats the point, nestea can easily hold those, and Naniwa doesn't care about winning a pointless game obviously. I'm also a nestea fan but he has disappointed me so often lately. Its a tournaments of champions so I understand they want all the games to be played. As a player though are you going to care if you win and tie 2nd last or lose and tie for last? People are angry but Naniwa will play amazing games again and be competetive in tournaments again. All this hate for a match that means nothing. "I'm also a nestea fan but he has disappointed me so often lately." Same, but I mean, he's still trying. also apparently that day/today was his birthday or something from what I understand? idk... -_- "Its a tournaments of champions so I understand they want all the games to be played. As a player though are you going to care if you win and tie 2nd last or lose and tie for last?" if you really were _competitive_... you would still want to win. edit: On December 14 2011 06:37 Tantaburs wrote:
To the people saying that professional sports teams still play all their games even if they are out.
Naniwa played all of his games. You could make this argument if Nani had not shown up to the last game but you can't punish him for playing a strategy that you don't like. you're calling worker rushing a strategy. um.. worker rushing ... Worker rushing is a strategey. Not a very good one but a strategey. I remeber when the 12 drone rush was a good build on Steppes. Unless you can find a GSL rule that says you can't worker rush then this thread is pointless 12 drone rush is different, the timings on steppes of war line up that the drones get there before you can get a walloff up random drone rush on random maps in this metagame don't work unless you don't have a brain or don't know that your workers can attack And a probe rush beats a 6 pool. Yes Nani knew he was going to lose but you can't ban someone for doing a build you don't like. As has been said in this thread and tweeted by HuK. Stephano 6 pooled cloud twice when the games mattered Had cloud not won then the standings would have been changed. Stephano got no hate for this because apparently 6 pooling a terran is acceptable but probe rushing warrants a ban. IdrA has walked away for tournament but apparently forfieting is okay but probe rushing isn't. Nani didn't do anything outside of the rules he didn't want to play the game so he probe rushed. If he had gone for a double gateway in nesteas vision would that have been okay. What about 2 expansions before a gateway.where do you draw the line on what you can and can't do in a game. No, a 12 drone rush is infinitely more viable than a probe rush, don't even try and compare the two. Especially since one was done on steppes of war and Idra won games against good players back then doing the 12 drone rush. What Stephano did was wrong, but it wasn't anywhere near as big as what Naniwa did. You also have to remember that Stephano is known as a friendly guy, while Naniwa is a repeat offender and apparently not the easiest person to work with behind the scenes either. If you're talking about MLG I'm pretty sure it got cleared up that Idra was watching Huk's games and didn't realize he was supposed to play, although I could be wrong. How you do you figure that. NaNi's game changed nothing Stephano's changed group results. Also IdrA left the semi finals if the TL Open after losing a game. But Naniwa did it to nestea!...In korea!....... >_> yea exactly, you can't change how you value an offense based on how much you like the perpetrator lol
But you can based on the scale of the event. Leaving an online TL open match is different then leaving a major LAN with a paying customer base.
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Ive never cared about Naniwa and seeing this just makes me lol at him more.
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Who gives? Game didn't matter.
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On December 14 2011 08:01 InvalidID wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:58 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:56 Tantaburs wrote:On December 14 2011 07:10 Skwid1g wrote:On December 14 2011 07:01 Tantaburs wrote:On December 14 2011 06:50 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 06:49 Tantaburs wrote:On December 14 2011 06:37 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 06:34 PoOxZ wrote:On December 14 2011 06:28 zhurai wrote:
[quote]
"you would all still be complaining"
lol nope.
those are unfortunately actually part of the game, and things people use to win. if nestea couldn't hold those then that's his fault for not knowing (note: I'm a nestea fan... so... whatever)
however worker rushing.... Thats the point, nestea can easily hold those, and Naniwa doesn't care about winning a pointless game obviously. I'm also a nestea fan but he has disappointed me so often lately. Its a tournaments of champions so I understand they want all the games to be played. As a player though are you going to care if you win and tie 2nd last or lose and tie for last? People are angry but Naniwa will play amazing games again and be competetive in tournaments again. All this hate for a match that means nothing. "I'm also a nestea fan but he has disappointed me so often lately." Same, but I mean, he's still trying. also apparently that day/today was his birthday or something from what I understand? idk... -_- "Its a tournaments of champions so I understand they want all the games to be played. As a player though are you going to care if you win and tie 2nd last or lose and tie for last?" if you really were _competitive_... you would still want to win. edit: On December 14 2011 06:37 Tantaburs wrote:
To the people saying that professional sports teams still play all their games even if they are out.
Naniwa played all of his games. You could make this argument if Nani had not shown up to the last game but you can't punish him for playing a strategy that you don't like. you're calling worker rushing a strategy. um.. worker rushing ... Worker rushing is a strategey. Not a very good one but a strategey. I remeber when the 12 drone rush was a good build on Steppes. Unless you can find a GSL rule that says you can't worker rush then this thread is pointless 12 drone rush is different, the timings on steppes of war line up that the drones get there before you can get a walloff up random drone rush on random maps in this metagame don't work unless you don't have a brain or don't know that your workers can attack And a probe rush beats a 6 pool. Yes Nani knew he was going to lose but you can't ban someone for doing a build you don't like. As has been said in this thread and tweeted by HuK. Stephano 6 pooled cloud twice when the games mattered Had cloud not won then the standings would have been changed. Stephano got no hate for this because apparently 6 pooling a terran is acceptable but probe rushing warrants a ban. IdrA has walked away for tournament but apparently forfieting is okay but probe rushing isn't. Nani didn't do anything outside of the rules he didn't want to play the game so he probe rushed. If he had gone for a double gateway in nesteas vision would that have been okay. What about 2 expansions before a gateway.where do you draw the line on what you can and can't do in a game. No, a 12 drone rush is infinitely more viable than a probe rush, don't even try and compare the two. Especially since one was done on steppes of war and Idra won games against good players back then doing the 12 drone rush. What Stephano did was wrong, but it wasn't anywhere near as big as what Naniwa did. You also have to remember that Stephano is known as a friendly guy, while Naniwa is a repeat offender and apparently not the easiest person to work with behind the scenes either. If you're talking about MLG I'm pretty sure it got cleared up that Idra was watching Huk's games and didn't realize he was supposed to play, although I could be wrong. How you do you figure that. NaNi's game changed nothing Stephano's changed group results. Also IdrA left the semi finals if the TL Open after losing a game. But Naniwa did it to nestea!...In korea!....... >_> yea exactly, you can't change how you value an offense based on how much you like the perpetrator lol But you can based on the scale of the event. Leaving an online TL open match is different then leaving a major LAN with a paying customer base.
DH= GSL no?
and Stephano's games affected seeding. So I'm gonna say your argument doesn't hold.
Also the whole paying fan base thing, I got 12 games in group B and only 10 in group A, so does that mean i didnt get my money's worth on Monday?... stop harping on the payment.
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On December 14 2011 08:06 stokes17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 08:01 InvalidID wrote:On December 14 2011 07:58 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:56 Tantaburs wrote:On December 14 2011 07:10 Skwid1g wrote:On December 14 2011 07:01 Tantaburs wrote:On December 14 2011 06:50 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 06:49 Tantaburs wrote:On December 14 2011 06:37 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 06:34 PoOxZ wrote:
[quote]
Thats the point, nestea can easily hold those, and Naniwa doesn't care about winning a pointless game obviously. I'm also a nestea fan but he has disappointed me so often lately. Its a tournaments of champions so I understand they want all the games to be played. As a player though are you going to care if you win and tie 2nd last or lose and tie for last?
People are angry but Naniwa will play amazing games again and be competetive in tournaments again. All this hate for a match that means nothing.
"I'm also a nestea fan but he has disappointed me so often lately." Same, but I mean, he's still trying. also apparently that day/today was his birthday or something from what I understand? idk... -_- "Its a tournaments of champions so I understand they want all the games to be played. As a player though are you going to care if you win and tie 2nd last or lose and tie for last?" if you really were _competitive_... you would still want to win. edit: On December 14 2011 06:37 Tantaburs wrote:
To the people saying that professional sports teams still play all their games even if they are out.
Naniwa played all of his games. You could make this argument if Nani had not shown up to the last game but you can't punish him for playing a strategy that you don't like. you're calling worker rushing a strategy. um.. worker rushing ... Worker rushing is a strategey. Not a very good one but a strategey. I remeber when the 12 drone rush was a good build on Steppes. Unless you can find a GSL rule that says you can't worker rush then this thread is pointless 12 drone rush is different, the timings on steppes of war line up that the drones get there before you can get a walloff up random drone rush on random maps in this metagame don't work unless you don't have a brain or don't know that your workers can attack And a probe rush beats a 6 pool. Yes Nani knew he was going to lose but you can't ban someone for doing a build you don't like. As has been said in this thread and tweeted by HuK. Stephano 6 pooled cloud twice when the games mattered Had cloud not won then the standings would have been changed. Stephano got no hate for this because apparently 6 pooling a terran is acceptable but probe rushing warrants a ban. IdrA has walked away for tournament but apparently forfieting is okay but probe rushing isn't. Nani didn't do anything outside of the rules he didn't want to play the game so he probe rushed. If he had gone for a double gateway in nesteas vision would that have been okay. What about 2 expansions before a gateway.where do you draw the line on what you can and can't do in a game. No, a 12 drone rush is infinitely more viable than a probe rush, don't even try and compare the two. Especially since one was done on steppes of war and Idra won games against good players back then doing the 12 drone rush. What Stephano did was wrong, but it wasn't anywhere near as big as what Naniwa did. You also have to remember that Stephano is known as a friendly guy, while Naniwa is a repeat offender and apparently not the easiest person to work with behind the scenes either. If you're talking about MLG I'm pretty sure it got cleared up that Idra was watching Huk's games and didn't realize he was supposed to play, although I could be wrong. How you do you figure that. NaNi's game changed nothing Stephano's changed group results. Also IdrA left the semi finals if the TL Open after losing a game. But Naniwa did it to nestea!...In korea!....... >_> yea exactly, you can't change how you value an offense based on how much you like the perpetrator lol But you can based on the scale of the event. Leaving an online TL open match is different then leaving a major LAN with a paying customer base. DH= GSL no? and Stephano's games affected seeding. So I'm gonna say your argument doesn't hold. Also the whole paying fan base thing, I got 12 games in group B and only 10 in group A, so does that mean i didnt get my money's worth on Monday?... stop harping on the payment.
The post I quoted was about Idra leaving an online TL Open map not Stephano's games, that I agree were disrespectful. Its not about the number of games, its about the fact that that was probably the most anticipated match in the tourney. I never said I didn't feel I got my moneys worth, or that I am particularly upset about it, but it is disrespectful to the paying fans, you cannot deny that.
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On December 14 2011 08:08 InvalidID wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 08:06 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 08:01 InvalidID wrote:On December 14 2011 07:58 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:56 Tantaburs wrote:On December 14 2011 07:10 Skwid1g wrote:On December 14 2011 07:01 Tantaburs wrote:On December 14 2011 06:50 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 06:49 Tantaburs wrote:On December 14 2011 06:37 zhurai wrote:
[quote]
"I'm also a nestea fan but he has disappointed me so often lately."
Same, but I mean, he's still trying. also apparently that day/today was his birthday or something from what I understand? idk... -_-
"Its a tournaments of champions so I understand they want all the games to be played. As a player though are you going to care if you win and tie 2nd last or lose and tie for last?"
if you really were _competitive_... you would still want to win.
edit:
[quote]
you're calling worker rushing a strategy. um.. worker rushing ...
Worker rushing is a strategey. Not a very good one but a strategey. I remeber when the 12 drone rush was a good build on Steppes. Unless you can find a GSL rule that says you can't worker rush then this thread is pointless 12 drone rush is different, the timings on steppes of war line up that the drones get there before you can get a walloff up random drone rush on random maps in this metagame don't work unless you don't have a brain or don't know that your workers can attack And a probe rush beats a 6 pool. Yes Nani knew he was going to lose but you can't ban someone for doing a build you don't like. As has been said in this thread and tweeted by HuK. Stephano 6 pooled cloud twice when the games mattered Had cloud not won then the standings would have been changed. Stephano got no hate for this because apparently 6 pooling a terran is acceptable but probe rushing warrants a ban. IdrA has walked away for tournament but apparently forfieting is okay but probe rushing isn't. Nani didn't do anything outside of the rules he didn't want to play the game so he probe rushed. If he had gone for a double gateway in nesteas vision would that have been okay. What about 2 expansions before a gateway.where do you draw the line on what you can and can't do in a game. No, a 12 drone rush is infinitely more viable than a probe rush, don't even try and compare the two. Especially since one was done on steppes of war and Idra won games against good players back then doing the 12 drone rush. What Stephano did was wrong, but it wasn't anywhere near as big as what Naniwa did. You also have to remember that Stephano is known as a friendly guy, while Naniwa is a repeat offender and apparently not the easiest person to work with behind the scenes either. If you're talking about MLG I'm pretty sure it got cleared up that Idra was watching Huk's games and didn't realize he was supposed to play, although I could be wrong. How you do you figure that. NaNi's game changed nothing Stephano's changed group results. Also IdrA left the semi finals if the TL Open after losing a game. But Naniwa did it to nestea!...In korea!....... >_> yea exactly, you can't change how you value an offense based on how much you like the perpetrator lol But you can based on the scale of the event. Leaving an online TL open match is different then leaving a major LAN with a paying customer base. DH= GSL no? and Stephano's games affected seeding. So I'm gonna say your argument doesn't hold. Also the whole paying fan base thing, I got 12 games in group B and only 10 in group A, so does that mean i didnt get my money's worth on Monday?... stop harping on the payment. The post I quoted was about Idra leaving an online TL Open map not Stephano's games, that I agree were disrespectful. Its not about the number of games, its about the fact that that was probably the most anticipated match in the tourney. I never said I didn't feel I got my moneys worth, or that I am particularly upset about it, but it is disrespectful to the paying fans, you cannot deny that.
This.
Naniwa vs. Nestea was a huge matchup, given their history. I can imagine the fact that people knew they would get to see those two battle it out influence their decision whether or not to buy a pass for this tournament.
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On December 14 2011 08:11 Trsjnica wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 08:08 InvalidID wrote:On December 14 2011 08:06 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 08:01 InvalidID wrote:On December 14 2011 07:58 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:56 Tantaburs wrote:On December 14 2011 07:10 Skwid1g wrote:On December 14 2011 07:01 Tantaburs wrote:On December 14 2011 06:50 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 06:49 Tantaburs wrote:
[quote]
Worker rushing is a strategey. Not a very good one but a strategey. I remeber when the 12 drone rush was a good build on Steppes.
Unless you can find a GSL rule that says you can't worker rush then this thread is pointless 12 drone rush is different, the timings on steppes of war line up that the drones get there before you can get a walloff up random drone rush on random maps in this metagame don't work unless you don't have a brain or don't know that your workers can attack And a probe rush beats a 6 pool. Yes Nani knew he was going to lose but you can't ban someone for doing a build you don't like. As has been said in this thread and tweeted by HuK. Stephano 6 pooled cloud twice when the games mattered Had cloud not won then the standings would have been changed. Stephano got no hate for this because apparently 6 pooling a terran is acceptable but probe rushing warrants a ban. IdrA has walked away for tournament but apparently forfieting is okay but probe rushing isn't. Nani didn't do anything outside of the rules he didn't want to play the game so he probe rushed. If he had gone for a double gateway in nesteas vision would that have been okay. What about 2 expansions before a gateway.where do you draw the line on what you can and can't do in a game. No, a 12 drone rush is infinitely more viable than a probe rush, don't even try and compare the two. Especially since one was done on steppes of war and Idra won games against good players back then doing the 12 drone rush. What Stephano did was wrong, but it wasn't anywhere near as big as what Naniwa did. You also have to remember that Stephano is known as a friendly guy, while Naniwa is a repeat offender and apparently not the easiest person to work with behind the scenes either. If you're talking about MLG I'm pretty sure it got cleared up that Idra was watching Huk's games and didn't realize he was supposed to play, although I could be wrong. How you do you figure that. NaNi's game changed nothing Stephano's changed group results. Also IdrA left the semi finals if the TL Open after losing a game. But Naniwa did it to nestea!...In korea!....... >_> yea exactly, you can't change how you value an offense based on how much you like the perpetrator lol But you can based on the scale of the event. Leaving an online TL open match is different then leaving a major LAN with a paying customer base. DH= GSL no? and Stephano's games affected seeding. So I'm gonna say your argument doesn't hold. Also the whole paying fan base thing, I got 12 games in group B and only 10 in group A, so does that mean i didnt get my money's worth on Monday?... stop harping on the payment. The post I quoted was about Idra leaving an online TL Open map not Stephano's games, that I agree were disrespectful. Its not about the number of games, its about the fact that that was probably the most anticipated match in the tourney. I never said I didn't feel I got my moneys worth, or that I am particularly upset about it, but it is disrespectful to the paying fans, you cannot deny that. This. Naniwa vs. Nestea was a huge matchup, given their history. I can imagine the fact that people knew they would get to see those two battle it out influence their decision whether or not to buy a pass for this tournament.
So GOM should have given the fans what they wanted and made the 4/5th place match mean something. Why not say Gom disrespected nani by making him play a pointless game after he was humiliated. Gom is beholden to the fans, Nani is only beholden to his team and sponsors, so unless you speak for them....
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On December 14 2011 08:16 stokes17 wrote:
So GOM should have given the fans what they wanted and made the 4/5th place match mean something. Why not say Gom disrespected nani by making him play a pointless game after he was humiliated. Gom is beholden to the fans, Nani is only beholden to his team and sponsors, so unless you speak for them....
yeah, gom disrespects nani by giving him money to play and follow their rules (YES, NOT WHAT HE DID)
also im really sure quantic/their sponsors are just delighted by nani's move. theyre just trying to reduce the damage by making fun of it.
+ slasher finds nanis move good. pretty much says it all
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You know I was thinking with all of these threads about Naniwa, and the giant spoilertags standing guard at the top of the OP, if there's some unlucky bastard out there who sees that and thinks the match must have been really epic. So he looks it up on GOM and 1:24 seconds later . . . .
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There's a reason why in a final bo7 if someone wins 4 then it's all over. The game was pointless and Naniwa was upset, stop hating on him.
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On December 14 2011 08:22 teddyoojo wrote:
to play and follow their rules (YES, NOT WHAT HE DID)
Which rule did he break?
Citation please.
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On December 14 2011 08:27 tlin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 08:22 teddyoojo wrote:
to play and follow their rules (YES, NOT WHAT HE DID) Which rule did he break? Citation please.
Pretty sure there's rules against throwing games.
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On December 14 2011 08:22 teddyoojo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 08:16 stokes17 wrote:
So GOM should have given the fans what they wanted and made the 4/5th place match mean something. Why not say Gom disrespected nani by making him play a pointless game after he was humiliated. Gom is beholden to the fans, Nani is only beholden to his team and sponsors, so unless you speak for them....
yeah, gom disrespects nani by giving him money to play and follow their rules (YES, NOT WHAT HE DID) also im really sure quantic/their sponsors are just delighted by nani's move. theyre just trying to reduce the damage by making fun of it. + slasher finds nanis move good. pretty much says it all
Except they didn't give him money, so what you said is patently untrue. Oh, and they have no rules saying he can't play half-ass games.
Of course QxG's sponsors won't like this, but that's not something GOM or anyone else should take issue with except for QxG management and sponsors. The biggest debate going on now is about the match not meaning anything.
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Pretty stupid by GomTV making them play a game that didn't matter. In a lot of sports such a game would never be played, since it is kinda pointless.
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On December 14 2011 08:22 teddyoojo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 08:16 stokes17 wrote:
So GOM should have given the fans what they wanted and made the 4/5th place match mean something. Why not say Gom disrespected nani by making him play a pointless game after he was humiliated. Gom is beholden to the fans, Nani is only beholden to his team and sponsors, so unless you speak for them....
yeah, gom disrespects nani by giving him money to play and follow their rules (YES, NOT WHAT HE DID) also im really sure quantic/their sponsors are just delighted by nani's move. theyre just trying to reduce the damage by making fun of it. + slasher finds nanis move good. pretty much says it all
Pretty sure if there was any money on the line for 4/5th he'd play the game out, so yea GOM let the fans down. nani fulfilled his obligation and played. I'm sure quantic cares about the bad PR, but the bad PR is baseless. Same thing has happened countless times without such a backlash. What do you think Hero's cannon build was vs DRG? Stepahno vs Cloud/BrATok, Idra in TL opens and leaving games he was ahead/leaving games when bunkers get dropped on his ramp instead of playing them out... same thing dood, nani was just upfront about it, whatever.
No one can really make a good argument to be mad at Nani over GOM. Its the same reason you don't get mad at incontrol for getting seeded every MLG you get mad at sundance for having a stupid format.
Just because its naniwa doesn't mean we can completely change who we hold responsible for giving the fans Good games. Tournament organizers have the responsibility of providing games the fans want to see. The Players have a responsibility to place as high as they possibly can, and since Nani had no chance to place any higher, but had to play a game.... its GOMs fault.
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On December 14 2011 08:32 Montana[TK] wrote:
Pretty sure there's rules against throwing games.
Pretty sure the majority of Koreans who have gone completely unwinnable builds in showmatches would be banned if Naniwa's probe rush fell under those rules.
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On December 14 2011 08:32 Montana[TK] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 08:27 tlin wrote:On December 14 2011 08:22 teddyoojo wrote:
to play and follow their rules (YES, NOT WHAT HE DID) Which rule did he break? Citation please. Pretty sure there's rules against throwing games.
O_o
how could you make that rule? What if a Zerg flies all his mutas over a clump of marines on purpose and GGs
or denotes all his banelings on purpose and GGs. (yea obviously you can't prove it was on purpose that's the point)
Where do you draw the line of intentionally throwing a game?
You can't, that's why you structure a tournament in such a way that it would make no sense, monetarily or otherwise, for a player to throw a game. GOM failed to do this.
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On December 14 2011 08:32 Montana[TK] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 08:27 tlin wrote:On December 14 2011 08:22 teddyoojo wrote:
to play and follow their rules (YES, NOT WHAT HE DID) Which rule did he break? Citation please. Pretty sure there's rules against throwing games.
He didn't throw the game he didn't want to play so he did the fastest strat he could.
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@TylerWasieleski People act like what Naniwa did is unprecedented. It's not. It's common. Naniwa just took it to the logical, non-deceptive extreme.
Look a pro player saying that pros throw games. Naniwa just didn't beat around the bush with it.
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Would people still be like this _if_ he managed to win that game? Imo he'd be hailed as having balls of steel and whatnot.
It's a strategy (albeit a poor one) in a strategy game. I would have liked to have seen an epic match, but even I'd find it hard to really get excited about seeing as no one would advance. The only thing to play for was the storyline, but this game adds to the storyline as well.
Saying he's not a progamer is definitely taking it way too far. In sports teams sometimes field 'b' teams to rest their top players for matches which don't matter all the time.
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EPT
