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Please keep this thread on topic. It's ok to discuss the professionalism of what happened, but don't turn this thread into personal attacks or it will be closed. |
It is just amusing to me that people are SHOCKED by what happened. This is Naniwa, everyone knows he does incredibly dumb and immature things so why are you so surprised this happened. Also, he threw a game that had no implications on the tournament. Naniwa apologized. If it was genuine or not, the SC2 just needs to move on and not overact to things like this.
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wow i cant believe naniwa would do that, i mean i know the game meant nothing but at least play for respect and fun
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On December 14 2011 07:32 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:31 pPingu wrote:On December 14 2011 07:29 ZAiNs wrote:On December 14 2011 07:21 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:20 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:20 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:17 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:16 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:15 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:15 stokes17 wrote:
[quote]
probe rush> 6 pool
so like, it is a cheese. Um.... What 6 probes>5 drones, so you'd beat a 6 pool. maybe depends when you get to the base or you could like, move your drones around your hatch until your lings pop, which then you'd have more units than him? maybe, depends how much you mined b4 the probes arrived, 5 drones take a while to mine the 150 for the pool, might not even have enough for 2 lings . Point being- you can't fault a player for how he played But you can fault a Tourni format that puts players in a position to not try "their best" whatever their best may be I agree with the tournament format being shitty but the players not being competitive is imo very frowned upon. So do you equally frown on Stephano vs Cloud? actually you should frown harder because it had seeding implications Actually it was Stephano vs BratOK ^^. This was the first one which happened at assembly There was an other case at DH Oh, didn't realise it happened at Dreamhack. What Stephano did was worse than Naniwa because of the seeding implications...
yea exactly, where's Choya calling Stephano a bastard who shouldn't be a gamer?
And MVP's WTF?
and a whole game damn article taking a dump on stephanos chest?
No where....
this just gets publicity because people like to hate naniwa. If GOM removes him from Code S i probably won't buy a yearly ticket TBH (and I've bought every ticket since open season 2)
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who cares? he was eliminated anyways, obviously upset with his play so he made a decision.
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On December 14 2011 07:33 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:
It is just amusing to me that people are SHOCKED by what happened. This is Naniwa, everyone knows he does incredibly dumb and immature things so why are you so surprised this happened. Also, he threw a game that had no implications on the tournament. Naniwa apologized. If it was genuine or not, the SC2 just needs to move on and not overact to things like this.
A larger issue is the way these actions are seen in Korean culture. If this happened at an MLG or another foreign tournament I am sure it wouldn't have this response but when this level of unprofessionalism is shown at a place where esports is a truly professional endeavor there will be issues.
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On December 14 2011 07:35 stokes17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:32 ZAiNs wrote:On December 14 2011 07:31 pPingu wrote:On December 14 2011 07:29 ZAiNs wrote:On December 14 2011 07:21 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:20 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:20 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:17 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:16 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:15 zhurai wrote:
[quote]
Um.... What 6 probes>5 drones, so you'd beat a 6 pool. maybe depends when you get to the base or you could like, move your drones around your hatch until your lings pop, which then you'd have more units than him? maybe, depends how much you mined b4 the probes arrived, 5 drones take a while to mine the 150 for the pool, might not even have enough for 2 lings . Point being- you can't fault a player for how he played But you can fault a Tourni format that puts players in a position to not try "their best" whatever their best may be I agree with the tournament format being shitty but the players not being competitive is imo very frowned upon. So do you equally frown on Stephano vs Cloud? actually you should frown harder because it had seeding implications Actually it was Stephano vs BratOK ^^. This was the first one which happened at assembly There was an other case at DH Oh, didn't realise it happened at Dreamhack. What Stephano did was worse than Naniwa because of the seeding implications... yea exactly, where's Choya calling Stephano a bastard who shouldn't be a gamer? And MVP's WTF? and a whole game damn article taking a dump on stephanos chest? No where.... this just gets publicity because people like to hate naniwa. If GOM removes him from Code S i probably won't buy a yearly ticket TBH (and I've bought every ticket since open season 2)
A large part of it is because not as many people watched Stephano/BratOK compared to GSL.
And Naniwa has a poor history so that factors in as well
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On December 14 2011 07:35 stokes17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:32 ZAiNs wrote:On December 14 2011 07:31 pPingu wrote:On December 14 2011 07:29 ZAiNs wrote:On December 14 2011 07:21 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:20 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:20 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:17 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:16 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:15 zhurai wrote:
[quote]
Um.... What 6 probes>5 drones, so you'd beat a 6 pool. maybe depends when you get to the base or you could like, move your drones around your hatch until your lings pop, which then you'd have more units than him? maybe, depends how much you mined b4 the probes arrived, 5 drones take a while to mine the 150 for the pool, might not even have enough for 2 lings . Point being- you can't fault a player for how he played But you can fault a Tourni format that puts players in a position to not try "their best" whatever their best may be I agree with the tournament format being shitty but the players not being competitive is imo very frowned upon. So do you equally frown on Stephano vs Cloud? actually you should frown harder because it had seeding implications Actually it was Stephano vs BratOK ^^. This was the first one which happened at assembly There was an other case at DH Oh, didn't realise it happened at Dreamhack. What Stephano did was worse than Naniwa because of the seeding implications... yea exactly, where's Choya calling Stephano a bastard who shouldn't be a gamer? And MVP's WTF? and a whole game damn article taking a dump on stephanos chest? No where.... this just gets publicity because people like to hate naniwa. If GOM removes him from Code S i probably won't buy a yearly ticket TBH (and I've bought every ticket since open season 2)
If it has seeding implications the players should absolutely be banned, but if there aren't any tangible outcomes it's idiotic to blame anyone but the tourney organizer for the issue. Even when players don't default worker rush or 6 pool they still bullshit -- they just cover it up more. If a player is locked in a position where they gain nothing from playing a match, someone in charge fucked up.
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On December 14 2011 07:39 hmunkey wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:35 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:32 ZAiNs wrote:On December 14 2011 07:31 pPingu wrote:On December 14 2011 07:29 ZAiNs wrote:On December 14 2011 07:21 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:20 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:20 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:17 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:16 stokes17 wrote:
[quote]
6 probes>5 drones, so you'd beat a 6 pool. maybe depends when you get to the base or you could like, move your drones around your hatch until your lings pop, which then you'd have more units than him? maybe, depends how much you mined b4 the probes arrived, 5 drones take a while to mine the 150 for the pool, might not even have enough for 2 lings . Point being- you can't fault a player for how he played But you can fault a Tourni format that puts players in a position to not try "their best" whatever their best may be I agree with the tournament format being shitty but the players not being competitive is imo very frowned upon. So do you equally frown on Stephano vs Cloud? actually you should frown harder because it had seeding implications Actually it was Stephano vs BratOK ^^. This was the first one which happened at assembly There was an other case at DH Oh, didn't realise it happened at Dreamhack. What Stephano did was worse than Naniwa because of the seeding implications... yea exactly, where's Choya calling Stephano a bastard who shouldn't be a gamer? And MVP's WTF? and a whole game damn article taking a dump on stephanos chest? No where.... this just gets publicity because people like to hate naniwa. If GOM removes him from Code S i probably won't buy a yearly ticket TBH (and I've bought every ticket since open season 2) If it has seeding implications the players should absolutely be banned, but if there aren't any tangible outcomes it's idiotic to blame anyone but the tourney organizer for the issue. Even when players don't default worker rush or 6 pool they still bullshit -- they just cover it up more. If a player is locked in a position where they gain nothing from playing a match, someone in charge fucked up.
I bolded the part that should make it into Aesop's Fables: Esports Edition.
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On December 14 2011 07:41 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:39 hmunkey wrote:On December 14 2011 07:35 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:32 ZAiNs wrote:On December 14 2011 07:31 pPingu wrote:On December 14 2011 07:29 ZAiNs wrote:On December 14 2011 07:21 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:20 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:20 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:17 zhurai wrote:
[quote]
or you could like, move your drones around your hatch until your lings pop, which then you'd have more units than him? maybe, depends how much you mined b4 the probes arrived, 5 drones take a while to mine the 150 for the pool, might not even have enough for 2 lings . Point being- you can't fault a player for how he played But you can fault a Tourni format that puts players in a position to not try "their best" whatever their best may be I agree with the tournament format being shitty but the players not being competitive is imo very frowned upon. So do you equally frown on Stephano vs Cloud? actually you should frown harder because it had seeding implications Actually it was Stephano vs BratOK ^^. This was the first one which happened at assembly There was an other case at DH Oh, didn't realise it happened at Dreamhack. What Stephano did was worse than Naniwa because of the seeding implications... yea exactly, where's Choya calling Stephano a bastard who shouldn't be a gamer? And MVP's WTF? and a whole game damn article taking a dump on stephanos chest? No where.... this just gets publicity because people like to hate naniwa. If GOM removes him from Code S i probably won't buy a yearly ticket TBH (and I've bought every ticket since open season 2) If it has seeding implications the players should absolutely be banned, but if there aren't any tangible outcomes it's idiotic to blame anyone but the tourney organizer for the issue. Even when players don't default worker rush or 6 pool they still bullshit -- they just cover it up more. If a player is locked in a position where they gain nothing from playing a match, someone in charge fucked up. I bolded the part that should make it into Aesop's Fables: Esports Edition.
Yep, let's put that in stone and ship it Mok Dong :D
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Yeah the format sucks, but that's a fucking terrible excuse.
Completely selfish. Huge letdown for fans and shows just how little heart this guy actually has. I never liked Naniwa and definitely could care less about any of his future results.
Shit excuses too, by that logic everyone should just forfeit as soon as they are out of contention. This was just a huge "fuck you" to all of his fans.
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On December 14 2011 07:30 TheWonderbread wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:23 grtgrt1 wrote:
Can't believe people are defending this. Really, ask yourself, did you, in all honesty, want to see that game?
If noone wanted to see Starcraft 2 matches, it would not be an e-sport at all.
So, by simple deduction, Naniwa hurts e-sports and is, therefore, not to be defended but frowned upon. I don't think anyone really disagrees that it was a disrespectful move, but we're more arguing about the Korean reaction to what happened and whether or not it warrants a formal punishment from GOM.
Would you, as an organisation that provides Starcraft 2 broadcasting, want to feature players that provide matches noone wants to see?
Punishment, probably not, it is commercially unsound, beause of the risk of alienating a childish part of the foreign community. But if the Korean press is outraged, they are completely in the right. Personally, I think he deserves more dissing than he is receiving.
He has been behaving like this since he hit the scene. Now that he apparently isn't a totally forgettable mediocreplayer anymore (as opposed to his Warcraft 3 career) he obviously feels entitled. Way to go Naniwa, way to go.
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On December 14 2011 07:46 grtgrt1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:30 TheWonderbread wrote:On December 14 2011 07:23 grtgrt1 wrote:
Can't believe people are defending this. Really, ask yourself, did you, in all honesty, want to see that game?
If noone wanted to see Starcraft 2 matches, it would not be an e-sport at all.
So, by simple deduction, Naniwa hurts e-sports and is, therefore, not to be defended but frowned upon. I don't think anyone really disagrees that it was a disrespectful move, but we're more arguing about the Korean reaction to what happened and whether or not it warrants a formal punishment from GOM. Would you, as an organisation that provides Starcraft 2 broadcasting, want to feature players that provide matches noone wants to see?
And mathces from players who blatantly disrespect the organizers, the sponsors, and the fans by not even bothering to play real games...
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On December 14 2011 07:45 deepfield1 wrote:
Completely selfish. Huge letdown for fans and shows just how little heart this guy actually has. I never liked Naniwa and definitely could care less about any of his future results.
Me too, except I'm a Naniwa fan.
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I'm so sick of logging in to TL and seeing 16 topics about Naniwa. Could the drama be any more predictable or boring at this point?
Carry on. -_-
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On December 14 2011 07:45 deepfield1 wrote:
Yeah the format sucks, but that's a fucking terrible excuse.
Completely selfish. Huge letdown for fans and shows just how little heart this guy actually has. I never liked Naniwa and definitely could care less about any of his future results.
Shit excuses too, by that logic everyone should just forfeit as soon as they are out of contention. This was just a huge "fuck you" to all of his fans.
Yea bro, usually when you are out of contention in an SC2 tournament you are eliminated and don't play anymore.
So yea I'll go there
If you have 0% chance (like an actual mathematical impossibility for you to win)of winning a tournament you should forfeit the rest of your games.
I am a fan, and i did not perceive it as a fuck you at all. I saw it as a defeated humiliated player who wanted to go home and not play anymore. Like he's only human.
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On December 14 2011 07:49 Trsjnica wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:46 grtgrt1 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:30 TheWonderbread wrote:On December 14 2011 07:23 grtgrt1 wrote:
Can't believe people are defending this. Really, ask yourself, did you, in all honesty, want to see that game?
If noone wanted to see Starcraft 2 matches, it would not be an e-sport at all.
So, by simple deduction, Naniwa hurts e-sports and is, therefore, not to be defended but frowned upon. I don't think anyone really disagrees that it was a disrespectful move, but we're more arguing about the Korean reaction to what happened and whether or not it warrants a formal punishment from GOM. Would you, as an organisation that provides Starcraft 2 broadcasting, want to feature players that provide matches noone wants to see? And mathces from players who blatantly disrespect the organizers, the sponsors, and the fans by not even bothering to play real games...
Yeh, that too. 
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On December 14 2011 07:10 Skwid1g wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:01 Tantaburs wrote:On December 14 2011 06:50 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 06:49 Tantaburs wrote:On December 14 2011 06:37 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 06:34 PoOxZ wrote:On December 14 2011 06:28 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 06:25 PoOxZ wrote:
The tournament shouldn't force players that are already eliminated to play. Naniwa should have cannon rushed, or 3 gate proxy, the game would be over quick and you would all still be complaining.
"you would all still be complaining" lol nope. those are unfortunately actually part of the game, and things people use to win. if nestea couldn't hold those then that's his fault for not knowing (note: I'm a nestea fan... so... whatever) however worker rushing.... Thats the point, nestea can easily hold those, and Naniwa doesn't care about winning a pointless game obviously. I'm also a nestea fan but he has disappointed me so often lately. Its a tournaments of champions so I understand they want all the games to be played. As a player though are you going to care if you win and tie 2nd last or lose and tie for last? People are angry but Naniwa will play amazing games again and be competetive in tournaments again. All this hate for a match that means nothing. "I'm also a nestea fan but he has disappointed me so often lately." Same, but I mean, he's still trying. also apparently that day/today was his birthday or something from what I understand? idk... -_- "Its a tournaments of champions so I understand they want all the games to be played. As a player though are you going to care if you win and tie 2nd last or lose and tie for last?" if you really were _competitive_... you would still want to win. edit: On December 14 2011 06:37 Tantaburs wrote:
To the people saying that professional sports teams still play all their games even if they are out.
Naniwa played all of his games. You could make this argument if Nani had not shown up to the last game but you can't punish him for playing a strategy that you don't like. you're calling worker rushing a strategy. um.. worker rushing ... Worker rushing is a strategey. Not a very good one but a strategey. I remeber when the 12 drone rush was a good build on Steppes. Unless you can find a GSL rule that says you can't worker rush then this thread is pointless 12 drone rush is different, the timings on steppes of war line up that the drones get there before you can get a walloff up random drone rush on random maps in this metagame don't work unless you don't have a brain or don't know that your workers can attack And a probe rush beats a 6 pool. Yes Nani knew he was going to lose but you can't ban someone for doing a build you don't like. As has been said in this thread and tweeted by HuK. Stephano 6 pooled cloud twice when the games mattered Had cloud not won then the standings would have been changed. Stephano got no hate for this because apparently 6 pooling a terran is acceptable but probe rushing warrants a ban. IdrA has walked away for tournament but apparently forfieting is okay but probe rushing isn't. Nani didn't do anything outside of the rules he didn't want to play the game so he probe rushed. If he had gone for a double gateway in nesteas vision would that have been okay. What about 2 expansions before a gateway.where do you draw the line on what you can and can't do in a game. No, a 12 drone rush is infinitely more viable than a probe rush, don't even try and compare the two. Especially since one was done on steppes of war and Idra won games against good players back then doing the 12 drone rush. What Stephano did was wrong, but it wasn't anywhere near as big as what Naniwa did. You also have to remember that Stephano is known as a friendly guy, while Naniwa is a repeat offender and apparently not the easiest person to work with behind the scenes either. If you're talking about MLG I'm pretty sure it got cleared up that Idra was watching Huk's games and didn't realize he was supposed to play, although I could be wrong.
How you do you figure that.
NaNi's game changed nothing Stephano's changed group results.
Also IdrA left the semi finals if the TL Open after losing a game.
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I don't think its a huge deal but it is disrespectful to those of us that paid. I understand not playing a real game, but that is taking it too far. Just do a 4gate and call it a day without being overtly disrespectful to the fans.
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On December 14 2011 07:56 Tantaburs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:10 Skwid1g wrote:On December 14 2011 07:01 Tantaburs wrote:On December 14 2011 06:50 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 06:49 Tantaburs wrote:On December 14 2011 06:37 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 06:34 PoOxZ wrote:On December 14 2011 06:28 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 06:25 PoOxZ wrote:
The tournament shouldn't force players that are already eliminated to play. Naniwa should have cannon rushed, or 3 gate proxy, the game would be over quick and you would all still be complaining.
"you would all still be complaining" lol nope. those are unfortunately actually part of the game, and things people use to win. if nestea couldn't hold those then that's his fault for not knowing (note: I'm a nestea fan... so... whatever) however worker rushing.... Thats the point, nestea can easily hold those, and Naniwa doesn't care about winning a pointless game obviously. I'm also a nestea fan but he has disappointed me so often lately. Its a tournaments of champions so I understand they want all the games to be played. As a player though are you going to care if you win and tie 2nd last or lose and tie for last? People are angry but Naniwa will play amazing games again and be competetive in tournaments again. All this hate for a match that means nothing. "I'm also a nestea fan but he has disappointed me so often lately." Same, but I mean, he's still trying. also apparently that day/today was his birthday or something from what I understand? idk... -_- "Its a tournaments of champions so I understand they want all the games to be played. As a player though are you going to care if you win and tie 2nd last or lose and tie for last?" if you really were _competitive_... you would still want to win. edit: On December 14 2011 06:37 Tantaburs wrote:
To the people saying that professional sports teams still play all their games even if they are out.
Naniwa played all of his games. You could make this argument if Nani had not shown up to the last game but you can't punish him for playing a strategy that you don't like. you're calling worker rushing a strategy. um.. worker rushing ... Worker rushing is a strategey. Not a very good one but a strategey. I remeber when the 12 drone rush was a good build on Steppes. Unless you can find a GSL rule that says you can't worker rush then this thread is pointless 12 drone rush is different, the timings on steppes of war line up that the drones get there before you can get a walloff up random drone rush on random maps in this metagame don't work unless you don't have a brain or don't know that your workers can attack And a probe rush beats a 6 pool. Yes Nani knew he was going to lose but you can't ban someone for doing a build you don't like. As has been said in this thread and tweeted by HuK. Stephano 6 pooled cloud twice when the games mattered Had cloud not won then the standings would have been changed. Stephano got no hate for this because apparently 6 pooling a terran is acceptable but probe rushing warrants a ban. IdrA has walked away for tournament but apparently forfieting is okay but probe rushing isn't. Nani didn't do anything outside of the rules he didn't want to play the game so he probe rushed. If he had gone for a double gateway in nesteas vision would that have been okay. What about 2 expansions before a gateway.where do you draw the line on what you can and can't do in a game. No, a 12 drone rush is infinitely more viable than a probe rush, don't even try and compare the two. Especially since one was done on steppes of war and Idra won games against good players back then doing the 12 drone rush. What Stephano did was wrong, but it wasn't anywhere near as big as what Naniwa did. You also have to remember that Stephano is known as a friendly guy, while Naniwa is a repeat offender and apparently not the easiest person to work with behind the scenes either. If you're talking about MLG I'm pretty sure it got cleared up that Idra was watching Huk's games and didn't realize he was supposed to play, although I could be wrong. How you do you figure that. NaNi's game changed nothing Stephano's changed group results. Also IdrA left the semi finals if the TL Open after losing a game.
But Naniwa did it to nestea!...In korea!....... >_>
yea exactly, you can't change how you value an offense based on how much you like the perpetrator lol
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The Koreans are just bent out of shape because it happened at a very big tournament that they own. Its bad, yes...However not that bad to insult the title of pro gamer for naniwa. Jesus, just a month ago he was one of the best protoss pro gamers...Get over it Korea.
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EPT
