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Please keep this thread on topic. It's ok to discuss the professionalism of what happened, but don't turn this thread into personal attacks or it will be closed. |
On December 14 2011 07:20 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:20 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:17 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:16 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:15 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:15 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:12 Big J wrote:On December 14 2011 07:10 Dakure wrote:
Didn't Nestea send drones toward Nani in a match or two on Tal'Darim? Everyone defended Nestea against Nani's criticism. Now Nani sends probes and everyone attacks him.
When Nestea does it, it's okay.
When Nani does it, hate all over.
Stay classy TL because 6pool + drone rush is an actual ZvP cheese strategy. a probe rush isn't one. Furthermore, Naniwa also admited that he didn't do it because he wanted to cheese Nestea but he wanted to lose asap. probe rush> 6 pool so like, it is a cheese. Um.... What 6 probes>5 drones, so you'd beat a 6 pool. maybe depends when you get to the base or you could like, move your drones around your hatch until your lings pop, which then you'd have more units than him? maybe, depends how much you mined b4 the probes arrived, 5 drones take a while to mine the 150 for the pool, might not even have enough for 2 lings . Point being- you can't fault a player for how he played But you can fault a Tourni format that puts players in a position to not try "their best" whatever their best may be I agree with the tournament format being shitty but the players not being competitive is imo very frowned upon.
So do you equally frown on Stephano vs Cloud?
actually you should frown harder because it had seeding implications
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at least this thread is more entertaining than the actual match.
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On December 14 2011 07:22 Govou wrote:
at least this thread is more entertaining than the actual match.
you made me smile
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It's bad for the game/community if players don't give their best.
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On December 14 2011 07:21 stokes17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:20 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:20 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:17 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:16 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:15 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:15 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:12 Big J wrote:On December 14 2011 07:10 Dakure wrote:
Didn't Nestea send drones toward Nani in a match or two on Tal'Darim? Everyone defended Nestea against Nani's criticism. Now Nani sends probes and everyone attacks him.
When Nestea does it, it's okay.
When Nani does it, hate all over.
Stay classy TL because 6pool + drone rush is an actual ZvP cheese strategy. a probe rush isn't one. Furthermore, Naniwa also admited that he didn't do it because he wanted to cheese Nestea but he wanted to lose asap. probe rush> 6 pool so like, it is a cheese. Um.... What 6 probes>5 drones, so you'd beat a 6 pool. maybe depends when you get to the base or you could like, move your drones around your hatch until your lings pop, which then you'd have more units than him? maybe, depends how much you mined b4 the probes arrived, 5 drones take a while to mine the 150 for the pool, might not even have enough for 2 lings . Point being- you can't fault a player for how he played But you can fault a Tourni format that puts players in a position to not try "their best" whatever their best may be I agree with the tournament format being shitty but the players not being competitive is imo very frowned upon. So do you equally frown on Stephano vs Cloud? actually you should frown harder because it had seeding implications
actually I didn't watch that match/series/whatever, so I can't comment on it
also I don't really like stephano, and am unfamiliar with cloud too, so. Whatever.
What happened in it.
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On December 14 2011 07:07 raginglemon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:04 Jormundr wrote:On December 14 2011 06:59 raginglemon wrote:
I couldn't read through the entire thread, but this type of behavior is what will keep e-sports from becoming a mainstream contender. To those of you who can say "Well the match didn't matter, it's GOM's responsibility to make them play for something that matters."
Sorry, that's bullshit, it's the PLAYER'S responsibility to display what's called professionalism. You want to be a pro, ACT like one. You don't see this kind of behavior in other sports. And there are MANY meaningless games that are played in other sports. I'm talking about teams that are eliminated from the playoffs with plenty of games left in the season. Well those are meaningless games for those teams, but why do they play them? Because they're professionals, it's what they get paid to do. They play because there's a sense of personal pride, because they are competitors.
You would NEVER see a team in mainstream sports just not show up to the arena.
What Naniwa did was unprofessional, childish and very selfish. All he was thinking about was himself and it's really too bad that someone with all the skill in the world can behave in such a manner. Actually your argument is pretty damn flawed. Most other sports that I assume you are speaking about (basketball, hockey, football, handegg, etc) the players are still getting paid. The reason they play is for money. In this case naniwa had nothing to gain, so he left. I'm guessing you've never played organized sport. You play the entire regular season so that you can play in the playoffs for a chance to win the ultimate prize. You do realize that none of the athletes get paid to play in the playoffs... If money is the only driving factor here, then nobody would want to play in the playoffs. The reason the players continue to play is because they have pride in themselves, and their teammates. Based on your argument, it would be even MORE advantageous for the players to just quit. Why risk injury to play out the rest of the season if they're already getting paid?
The reason definitely wouldn't be because they're overall performance throughout the season affects not only whether or not they'll be a starter for the team but also how much money they will make in the future when they renegotiate their contract... oh wait.
I'm sure for some of the players its a pride or sportsmanship thing, but everyone in here needs to stop speaking in absolutes, this is the real world.
Also stop making analogies to team sports because it really isn't going anywhere, in either direction.
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Can't believe people are defending this. Really, ask yourself, did you, in all honesty, want to see that game?
If noone wanted to see Starcraft 2 matches, it would not be an e-sport at all.
So, by simple deduction, Naniwa hurts e-sports and is, therefore, not to be defended but frowned upon.
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I dislike this thread. It makes the SC2 community look spoiled and whiny.
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On December 14 2011 07:18 Xiron wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:15 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:14 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:13 On_Slaught wrote:
LOL! Quantic hyped up the match on twitter before it happened? That is fucking hilarious. Rude wake-up call for QxG. Yeah, and then they were like "errrrrrr" and then JP retweeted their hype tweet. On December 14 2011 07:13 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:10 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:08 Tantaburs wrote:On December 14 2011 07:07 Big J wrote:On December 14 2011 07:01 Tantaburs wrote:On December 14 2011 06:50 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 06:49 Tantaburs wrote:
[quote]
Worker rushing is a strategey. Not a very good one but a strategey. I remeber when the 12 drone rush was a good build on Steppes.
Unless you can find a GSL rule that says you can't worker rush then this thread is pointless 12 drone rush is different, the timings on steppes of war line up that the drones get there before you can get a walloff up random drone rush on random maps in this metagame don't work unless you don't have a brain or don't know that your workers can attack And a probe rush beats a 6 pool. Yes Nani knew he was going to lose but you can't ban someone for doing a build you don't like. As has been said in this thread and tweeted by HuK. Stephano 6 pooled cloud twice when the games mattered Had cloud not won then the standings would have been changed. Stephano got no hate for this because apparently 6 pooling a terran is acceptable but probe rushing warrants a ban. IdrA has walked away for tournament but apparently forfieting is okay but probe rushing isn't. Nani didn't do anything outside of the rules he didn't want to play the game so he probe rushed. If he had gone for a double gateway in nesteas vision would that have been okay. What about 2 expansions before a gateway.where do you draw the line on what you can and can't do in a game. where it is obvious. Naniwa even said that he did this on purpose because he did not want to play. That alone makes it obvious. So would it have been okay if he had proxy 2 gated or cannon rushed? are people mad at him because he chose the wrong cheese? at least proxy 2 gate and cannon rushes work compared to worker rushing worker rushing imo isn't even cheese, it's... ... idn man, proxy gate and cannon rush vs zerg are pretty bad.... and saying if he did another cheese it woulda been better undermines your argument. You can't select which low % cheeses are ok and which aren't. which is why the issue should be in the format not the player. any sort of "bare minimum" effort rule would be completely arbitrary. Better chances than worker rush, which has a pretty much nonexistant winrate out of bronze Probe rush beats 6 pool just like proxy gate only beats hatch 1st.... So using a bad strategy in Korea actually means you are disrespectful to them and should be banned from GomTV's tournaments... Lol stupid people on TL.
This line of argument might not be completely idiotic if naniwa hadn't already said he drone rushed to lose as quickly as possible. If you would like to defend him the least you could do is come up with arguments that make sense.
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On December 14 2011 07:23 ampson wrote:
I dislike this thread. It makes the SC2 community look spoiled and whiny.
Yeah. I'm actually quite surprised how much more mature the Reddit community is on these issues.
I have 3 posts on reddit and don't like their format, but that stands out.
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Everyone needs to stop bitching so much comeon! It was a completely meaningless match! Both Naniwa and Nestea was out of the tournament anyway...
And all Naniwas games were so freaking close I can imagine him being pissed after those games! I would be too!
You are defiently still the number 1 foreign player Naniwa ! For sure !
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On December 14 2011 07:21 stokes17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:20 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:20 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:17 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:16 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:15 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:15 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:12 Big J wrote:On December 14 2011 07:10 Dakure wrote:
Didn't Nestea send drones toward Nani in a match or two on Tal'Darim? Everyone defended Nestea against Nani's criticism. Now Nani sends probes and everyone attacks him.
When Nestea does it, it's okay.
When Nani does it, hate all over.
Stay classy TL because 6pool + drone rush is an actual ZvP cheese strategy. a probe rush isn't one. Furthermore, Naniwa also admited that he didn't do it because he wanted to cheese Nestea but he wanted to lose asap. probe rush> 6 pool so like, it is a cheese. Um.... What 6 probes>5 drones, so you'd beat a 6 pool. maybe depends when you get to the base or you could like, move your drones around your hatch until your lings pop, which then you'd have more units than him? maybe, depends how much you mined b4 the probes arrived, 5 drones take a while to mine the 150 for the pool, might not even have enough for 2 lings . Point being- you can't fault a player for how he played But you can fault a Tourni format that puts players in a position to not try "their best" whatever their best may be I agree with the tournament format being shitty but the players not being competitive is imo very frowned upon. So do you equally frown on Stephano vs Cloud? actually you should frown harder because it had seeding implications
Actually it was Stephano vs BratOK ^^.
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On December 14 2011 07:23 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:21 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:20 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:20 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:17 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:16 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:15 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:15 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:12 Big J wrote:On December 14 2011 07:10 Dakure wrote:
Didn't Nestea send drones toward Nani in a match or two on Tal'Darim? Everyone defended Nestea against Nani's criticism. Now Nani sends probes and everyone attacks him.
When Nestea does it, it's okay.
When Nani does it, hate all over.
Stay classy TL because 6pool + drone rush is an actual ZvP cheese strategy. a probe rush isn't one. Furthermore, Naniwa also admited that he didn't do it because he wanted to cheese Nestea but he wanted to lose asap. probe rush> 6 pool so like, it is a cheese. Um.... What 6 probes>5 drones, so you'd beat a 6 pool. maybe depends when you get to the base or you could like, move your drones around your hatch until your lings pop, which then you'd have more units than him? maybe, depends how much you mined b4 the probes arrived, 5 drones take a while to mine the 150 for the pool, might not even have enough for 2 lings . Point being- you can't fault a player for how he played But you can fault a Tourni format that puts players in a position to not try "their best" whatever their best may be I agree with the tournament format being shitty but the players not being competitive is imo very frowned upon. So do you equally frown on Stephano vs Cloud? actually you should frown harder because it had seeding implications actually I didn't watch that match/series/whatever, so I can't comment on it also I don't really like stephano, and am unfamiliar with cloud too, so. Whatever. What happened in it.
Stephano Early pooled vs T(cloud) two games in a row because he was already eliminated. Early Pool vs T is pretty (really) bad.
Like yea Ideally players should give their 100% all the time. But the burden of making sure that happens is on the Tourni organizers and the format. Which should motivate players to play their best (money, fame, advancement, etc) I'm sorry not every athlete is as competitive as Micheal Jordan (basically the most competitive person ever). that doesn't make them bad athletes. The Korean Article shits on Naniwa harder than LeBron got shit on for not playing hard IN A PLAY OFF GAME.
I understand maybe in Korean culture being ultra competitive always is the norm (it probably is) but that doesn't mean you can fault Naniwa for not being that way. If I just lost out of a regional wrestling tourni, and get asked to play a pointless 4/5th place match for nothing. IDC how many people are watching I'm not gonna wrestle as hard as I did when it actually mattered. And since Naniwa's humiliation was way greater than anything I've ever experienced, I totally understand him REALLY not wanting to play anymore
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On December 14 2011 07:29 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:21 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:20 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:20 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:17 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:16 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:15 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:15 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:12 Big J wrote:On December 14 2011 07:10 Dakure wrote:
Didn't Nestea send drones toward Nani in a match or two on Tal'Darim? Everyone defended Nestea against Nani's criticism. Now Nani sends probes and everyone attacks him.
When Nestea does it, it's okay.
When Nani does it, hate all over.
Stay classy TL because 6pool + drone rush is an actual ZvP cheese strategy. a probe rush isn't one. Furthermore, Naniwa also admited that he didn't do it because he wanted to cheese Nestea but he wanted to lose asap. probe rush> 6 pool so like, it is a cheese. Um.... What 6 probes>5 drones, so you'd beat a 6 pool. maybe depends when you get to the base or you could like, move your drones around your hatch until your lings pop, which then you'd have more units than him? maybe, depends how much you mined b4 the probes arrived, 5 drones take a while to mine the 150 for the pool, might not even have enough for 2 lings . Point being- you can't fault a player for how he played But you can fault a Tourni format that puts players in a position to not try "their best" whatever their best may be I agree with the tournament format being shitty but the players not being competitive is imo very frowned upon. So do you equally frown on Stephano vs Cloud? actually you should frown harder because it had seeding implications Actually it was Stephano vs BratOK ^^.
O was it? I only remember stepahno's name, and another OP on TL right now sited Cloud as the opponent so I went with it, my apologies
EDIT: from the naniwa interview thread
Considering the very negative responses from Korean teams, players, and media, do you regret what you did? Would you have done it differently if you could do it again?
If I could do it again i would just 4 gate and then people wouldnt have complained, this is no different from what Stephano did against Cloud at Dreamhack [Note: After going 0-2 and being eliminated from his group, Stephano went for two very early pool builds against Cloud. Stephano's match against Cloud had ranking implications for other players in his group], People are just hating because it's me who did it.
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On December 14 2011 07:23 grtgrt1 wrote:
Can't believe people are defending this. Really, ask yourself, did you, in all honesty, want to see that game?
If noone wanted to see Starcraft 2 matches, it would not be an e-sport at all.
So, by simple deduction, Naniwa hurts e-sports and is, therefore, not to be defended but frowned upon.
I don't think anyone really disagrees that it was a disrespectful move, but we're more arguing about the Korean reaction to what happened and whether or not it warrants a formal punishment from GOM.
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Switzerland2892 Posts
On December 14 2011 07:29 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:21 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:20 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:20 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:17 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:16 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:15 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:15 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:12 Big J wrote:On December 14 2011 07:10 Dakure wrote:
Didn't Nestea send drones toward Nani in a match or two on Tal'Darim? Everyone defended Nestea against Nani's criticism. Now Nani sends probes and everyone attacks him.
When Nestea does it, it's okay.
When Nani does it, hate all over.
Stay classy TL because 6pool + drone rush is an actual ZvP cheese strategy. a probe rush isn't one. Furthermore, Naniwa also admited that he didn't do it because he wanted to cheese Nestea but he wanted to lose asap. probe rush> 6 pool so like, it is a cheese. Um.... What 6 probes>5 drones, so you'd beat a 6 pool. maybe depends when you get to the base or you could like, move your drones around your hatch until your lings pop, which then you'd have more units than him? maybe, depends how much you mined b4 the probes arrived, 5 drones take a while to mine the 150 for the pool, might not even have enough for 2 lings . Point being- you can't fault a player for how he played But you can fault a Tourni format that puts players in a position to not try "their best" whatever their best may be I agree with the tournament format being shitty but the players not being competitive is imo very frowned upon. So do you equally frown on Stephano vs Cloud? actually you should frown harder because it had seeding implications Actually it was Stephano vs BratOK ^^.
This was the first one which happened at assembly, the winner had to play against sen, which both players wanted to avoid. It ended in stupid games like bc rush vs mass queen or something iirc
There was an other case at DHW 2011, stephano was already 0-2 and was already disqualified. He won game 1 against cloud then did an early pool the 2 next games (which is really stupid against terran, you just wall and yeah, see ya) The problem with that is that if stephano beat cloud, nani was gonna qualify for next round. But because of this he had to beat sheth, which he did. But stephano could have just thrown away nani tournament.
edit: added more details
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Okay, he is there to compete, not to play meaningless matches. He is a passionate player and his emotions got the best of him, why are people making a big deal out of this?
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On December 14 2011 07:31 pPingu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:29 ZAiNs wrote:On December 14 2011 07:21 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:20 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:20 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:17 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:16 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:15 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:15 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:12 Big J wrote:
[quote]
because 6pool + drone rush is an actual ZvP cheese strategy.
a probe rush isn't one. Furthermore, Naniwa also admited that he didn't do it because he wanted to cheese Nestea but he wanted to lose asap. probe rush> 6 pool so like, it is a cheese. Um.... What 6 probes>5 drones, so you'd beat a 6 pool. maybe depends when you get to the base or you could like, move your drones around your hatch until your lings pop, which then you'd have more units than him? maybe, depends how much you mined b4 the probes arrived, 5 drones take a while to mine the 150 for the pool, might not even have enough for 2 lings . Point being- you can't fault a player for how he played But you can fault a Tourni format that puts players in a position to not try "their best" whatever their best may be I agree with the tournament format being shitty but the players not being competitive is imo very frowned upon. So do you equally frown on Stephano vs Cloud? actually you should frown harder because it had seeding implications Actually it was Stephano vs BratOK ^^. This was the first one which happened at assembly There was an other case at DH
Oh, didn't realise it happened at Dreamhack. What Stephano did was worse than Naniwa because of the seeding implications...
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On December 14 2011 07:29 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:21 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:20 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:20 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:17 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:16 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:15 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:15 stokes17 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:12 Big J wrote:On December 14 2011 07:10 Dakure wrote:
Didn't Nestea send drones toward Nani in a match or two on Tal'Darim? Everyone defended Nestea against Nani's criticism. Now Nani sends probes and everyone attacks him.
When Nestea does it, it's okay.
When Nani does it, hate all over.
Stay classy TL because 6pool + drone rush is an actual ZvP cheese strategy. a probe rush isn't one. Furthermore, Naniwa also admited that he didn't do it because he wanted to cheese Nestea but he wanted to lose asap. probe rush> 6 pool so like, it is a cheese. Um.... What 6 probes>5 drones, so you'd beat a 6 pool. maybe depends when you get to the base or you could like, move your drones around your hatch until your lings pop, which then you'd have more units than him? maybe, depends how much you mined b4 the probes arrived, 5 drones take a while to mine the 150 for the pool, might not even have enough for 2 lings . Point being- you can't fault a player for how he played But you can fault a Tourni format that puts players in a position to not try "their best" whatever their best may be I agree with the tournament format being shitty but the players not being competitive is imo very frowned upon. So do you equally frown on Stephano vs Cloud? actually you should frown harder because it had seeding implications Actually it was Stephano vs BratOK ^^.
It's actually both.
2 different examples of similar scenarios.
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On December 14 2011 07:30 TheWonderbread wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:23 grtgrt1 wrote:
Can't believe people are defending this. Really, ask yourself, did you, in all honesty, want to see that game?
If noone wanted to see Starcraft 2 matches, it would not be an e-sport at all.
So, by simple deduction, Naniwa hurts e-sports and is, therefore, not to be defended but frowned upon. I don't think anyone really disagrees that it was a disrespectful move, but we're more arguing about the Korean reaction to what happened and whether or not it warrants a formal punishment from GOM.
How bad I want to see something is not important at all
I really really want to see Anderson Silva and GPS (heal up soon please!) fight. But they really have no reason to, so unless someone gives them a ton of cash they prob won't fight. If you wanted to see naniwa vs Nestea so bad, you should be upset that the format didn't allow them to play a meaningful match. Guarantee you there was a prize money difference between 4/5th place... Naniwa plays that game hard.
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EPT
