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Stalker Attack Delay - The Protoss Fix - Page 5

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NormandyBoy
Profile Joined May 2010
France200 Posts
September 23 2011 21:26 GMT
#81
You know, stalkers can't be too smart or agile, they come from the dragoon, they can't shit on their roots...Everyone loves his family, even if it's a retarded family.
DNA61289
Profile Joined August 2010
United States665 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-23 21:27:19
September 23 2011 21:26 GMT
#82
This has always been my biggest problem with the stalker. This attack delay means that no matter how good your micro is you will always receive damage from marine and roaches. This change just makes stalkers more of a rewarding unit to use.

I would love to see this change implemented.
But yeah being a Korean gamer is very imba. If you're a non-korean gamer you have to balance your game playing with earning money and your real life. If you're Korean you just sit around playing games all day eating 2 cent ramyun and becoming gosu.
XenoX101
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia729 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-23 21:32:32
September 23 2011 21:28 GMT
#83
One problem I see with this is making stalkers too strong against zealots in PvP, nobody will build zealots if they are so easy to kite, and blink stalker builds will be infinitely more powerful as a result. It also means you can snipe immortals much better than you normally would as retreating is a lot easier.

Also it removes a bit of skill from the game, think back to the slowest, most unreliable unit in Brood War, the reaver. The reaver was awesome precisely because of how difficult it was to control/use, it made players work on their shuttle micro (shuttles themselves having terrible turning and acceleration) to incorporate reaver play. It does feel nicer to micro more nimble stalkers, but it is also a lot easier which lowers the skill needed to micro them properly.
Soulforged
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Latvia981 Posts
September 23 2011 21:30 GMT
#84
I'd probably give away blink to have no attack delay and better turning speed / 360 degree attack
Buddhist
Profile Joined April 2010
United States658 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-23 21:33:18
September 23 2011 21:31 GMT
#85
I think it's extremely important and worth noting that focus firing with stalkers reduces their effectiveness due to attack delay.

This is obviously not true in all cases (in very small scale fights, e.g. less than 5 stalkers, it is not that case), but is true for any decent number of stalkers (8+).

Go into a unit tester (like unit_test_map_solo) and just try to focus fire one group of stalkers vs. another. The focus firing group ALWAYS LOSES (assuming no other micro), because of overkill and wasted attack-delay (if you tell a stalker to change target before it's able to fire, it has to do the attack delay all over again).

Seriously, go try it yourself, it's dumb.

On September 24 2011 06:28 XenoX101 wrote:
One problem I see with this is making stalkers too strong against zealots in PvP, nobody will build zealots if they are so easy to kite, and blink stalker builds will be infinitely more powerful as a result. It also means you can snipe immortals much better than you normally would as retreating is a lot easier.

Immortals have equal range now, so it shouldn't matter. It's true about zealots, but honestly that doesn't seem like such a huge problem. Stalkers already dominate early game PvP.

I feel like this change to stalkers simply puts more control into the hands of the player.
axellerate
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada179 Posts
September 23 2011 21:33 GMT
#86
On September 24 2011 06:28 XenoX101 wrote:
One problem I see with this is making stalkers too strong against zealots in PvP, nobody will build zealots if they are so easy to kite, and blink stalker builds will be infinitely more powerful as a result. It also means you can snipe immortals much better than you normally would as retreating is a lot easier.

Also it removes a bit of skill from the game, think back to the slowest, most unreliable unit in Brood War, the reaver. The reaver was awesome precisely because of how difficult it was to control/use, it made players work on their shuttle micro (shuttles themselves having terrible turning and acceleration) to incorporate reaver play. It does feel nicer to micro more nimble stalkers, but it is also a lot easier which lowers the skill needed to micro them properly.


To that I would say that stalkers already kite zealots very very easily.
branflakes14
Profile Joined July 2010
2082 Posts
September 23 2011 21:33 GMT
#87
I wish we could just have Dragoons back. Even if all stats remained the same and they had to have their size reduced a little. Dragoons just look so badass.
iokke
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1179 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-23 21:34:11
September 23 2011 21:33 GMT
#88
Obviously I would love to see this change as a P, but I too think it may make Stalkers too strong during early game pressure (kiting/harassing marines and lings would be a lot easier), needs testing I guess..
Crop circles are Chuck Norris' way of telling the world that sometimes corn needs to lie the f*** down. rerereredit.. I never get it right the 1st time
FryktSkyene
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1327 Posts
September 23 2011 21:34 GMT
#89
On September 24 2011 06:28 XenoX101 wrote:
One problem I see with this is making stalkers too strong against zealots in PvP, nobody will build zealots if they are so easy to kite, and blink stalker builds will be infinitely more powerful as a result. It also means you can snipe immortals much better than you normally would as retreating is a lot easier.

Also it removes a bit of skill from the game, think back to the slowest, most unreliable unit in Brood War, the reaver. The reaver was awesome precisely because of how difficult it was to control/use, it made players work on their shuttle micro (shuttles themselves having terrible turning and acceleration) to incorporate reaver play. It does feel nicer to micro more nimble stalkers, but it is also a lot easier which lowers the skill needed to micro them properly.


Nobody builds zealots anyway in PvP unless your going for charge with almost negates blink as charge is so fast it hits you before you can blink away.
Snitches get stiches
Iamyournoob
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany595 Posts
September 23 2011 21:34 GMT
#90
I really believe that anything that rewards micro or skill is a great addition to SC2.

Microable units actually that you can get a lot out of, if you are good enough, is a mean to overcome balance issues. Terran units have great micro potential, so that good terrans can make them even more powerful than they already are.

Giving the stalker the possibility to profit more from skill is a good way to race the skill ceiling of SC2 which it badly needs.

Some say it might force speedling openers every game from zerg or kill certain terran openers... Why is this a bad thing???

When I watch BW, the basic builds in any match up are pretty much the same and still BW is the best competitive RTS ever created. It is the execution and the nuances that made BW what it is now - not the fact that you had a game of dice rolling at the start of each game which build players would go.
Buddhist
Profile Joined April 2010
United States658 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-23 21:37:34
September 23 2011 21:35 GMT
#91
IMO if it makes stalkers too strong, it should still go into the game and stalkers should just get a slight damage nerf or something. Giving more control to players is always desirable, makes the game MUCH more fun and more skill-based.
FryktSkyene
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1327 Posts
September 23 2011 21:35 GMT
#92
Is This link
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/3229385061
(Which is supposded to be the unit tester/custom map thing) not working for anyone else? I'd like to try out these stalkers :>
Snitches get stiches
galivet
Profile Joined February 2011
288 Posts
September 23 2011 21:35 GMT
#93
I would trade a tiny bit of stalker movement speed for this (enough that slow lings will get hits in against kiting stalkers instead of marines).

It doesn't have to be a pure buff; I'd trade some other piece of stalker "goodness" for this because it would make the game more fun.
phiinix
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States1169 Posts
September 23 2011 21:39 GMT
#94
On September 24 2011 05:41 Fig wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2011 05:38 coddan wrote:
Of all Protoss units, Stalkers is hardly the one that needs a buff. With 1.4 I doubt they're going to need anything for a foreseeable future.

Stalkers have the worst DPS/cost ratio of any unit in the game, I think making the micro for them more important would do wonders for them, and the race as a whole. I mean marines have this and they are the exact opposite, highest DPS/cost ratio unit in the game.


Actually motherships, archons, sentries and colossus all have lower dsp/cost ratios compared to the stalker. As do ghosts, hellions against not light, banelings against not light, ultralisks, and corruptors.
Anomandaris
Profile Joined July 2010
Afghanistan440 Posts
September 23 2011 21:40 GMT
#95
This could fix banshee tank marine allin.
Adding more skill to the game is definately a good idea. I am testing custom map right now.
lotrscwow
Profile Joined September 2011
Afghanistan27 Posts
September 23 2011 21:43 GMT
#96
i would be fine if they did this with stalkers if they also did it with roaches and hydras
RavenLoud
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada1100 Posts
September 23 2011 21:45 GMT
#97
You know, I would trade for any of these pro-micro gateway buffs for a colossus nerf anyday :D
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
September 23 2011 21:45 GMT
#98
On September 24 2011 05:35 axellerate wrote:
Original Thread By Arch (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/3229374433):

This is something interesting to consider for stalkers. I was experimenting with the galaxy editor and I decided to remove the attack delay that occurs between the time when an attack command is issued and a laser is fired. To avoid confusion, this has nothing to do with the time in between each attack. It is a measure of how quickly the unit responds to the attack command.

Then secondly as part of this particular experiment, I had increased the firing arc to 360 degrees. I figured this feature is what really made dragoons so badass, so I wanted to check out the stalkers with this feature.

The combined effect of these two tweaks was that the stalkers felt more smooth and responsive to commands, almost like driving a bmw compared to an old ford. The biggest consequence of the changes was that their "stutter step" capabilities were greatly improved. In the middle of a heated battle, I could move - shoot - move - shoot - move - shoot and maneuver around the battle pretty much without losing any dps. In my opinion the change gives the stalker the ability to use it's strong attributes (speed, mobility, and range) to their maximum potential in a way that is fun and demands micro.

Also, in my honest opinion, the change was not so extreme that the stalkers felt overpowered. It was still very tight to micro against marines, for example. But it made it doable. Stalkers vs marines currently, even with the 1 range differential, is near impossible to stutter-step micro because marines have 0 delay and a near immediate turning speed, meanwhile stalkers have a crippling attack delay, and a slower turning speed. I didn't take exact notes on the turning speed numbers, so you will have to forgive me on that one.

Also I should note that this change does not increase a stalkers dps. It decreases the *drop* in dps when stalkers are shooting on the move, and it does it in a way that scales with micro. IMO it's an awesome change.

So that was my experiment.

I think it would be cool if some of you out there could try out these settings in your editor and let me know what you think of it. Maybe it's the spark that stalkers needed to be appreciated.

Thanks for taking the time to read.


A dragoon that can fire as a fast a marine, brilliant.
starleague forever
hitpoint
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1511 Posts
September 23 2011 21:47 GMT
#99
If this is a problem, they should give the marine an attack delay. We don't need more broken units like the marine that can attack while moving. This change would be terrible.
It's spelled LOSE not LOOSE.
decaf
Profile Joined October 2010
Austria1797 Posts
September 23 2011 21:47 GMT
#100
this would make 2 stalker pressure against zerg who didn't open gas first overpowered.
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