Original Thread By Arch (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/3229374433):
This is something interesting to consider for stalkers. I was experimenting with the galaxy editor and I decided to remove the attack delay that occurs between the time when an attack command is issued and a laser is fired. To avoid confusion, this has nothing to do with the time in between each attack. It is a measure of how quickly the unit responds to the attack command.
Then secondly as part of this particular experiment, I had increased the firing arc to 360 degrees. I figured this feature is what really made dragoons so badass, so I wanted to check out the stalkers with this feature.
The combined effect of these two tweaks was that the stalkers felt more smooth and responsive to commands, almost like driving a bmw compared to an old ford. The biggest consequence of the changes was that their "stutter step" capabilities were greatly improved. In the middle of a heated battle, I could move - shoot - move - shoot - move - shoot and maneuver around the battle pretty much without losing any dps. In my opinion the change gives the stalker the ability to use it's strong attributes (speed, mobility, and range) to their maximum potential in a way that is fun and demands micro.
Also, in my honest opinion, the change was not so extreme that the stalkers felt overpowered. It was still very tight to micro against marines, for example. But it made it doable. Stalkers vs marines currently, even with the 1 range differential, is near impossible to stutter-step micro because marines have 0 delay and a near immediate turning speed, meanwhile stalkers have a crippling attack delay, and a slower turning speed. I didn't take exact notes on the turning speed numbers, so you will have to forgive me on that one.
Also I should note that this change does not increase a stalkers dps. It decreases the *drop* in dps when stalkers are shooting on the move, and it does it in a way that scales with micro. IMO it's an awesome change.
So that was my experiment.
I think it would be cool if some of you out there could try out these settings in your editor and let me know what you think of it. Maybe it's the spark that stalkers needed to be appreciated.
I have made a map to test out these changes on stalkers. The attack delay has been lowered to the same as marines and they have a much improved turn speed too. This doesn't change the actual DPS, but this lets you do true stutter stepping with Stalkers and they feel MUCH more agile. Honestly it feels a bit OP to me, but a lot of people have requested changes like this to the game so this is your chance to try it out yourself!
The map is called Stutter Stalkers and it's public now if you search for it.
What says the community? Welcome change or too OP?
Edit: Changed map name to make it easier to find
I'm almost positive this will put protoss back into the game, and add much better dynamic play to the protoss race that it needs so immensely at the moment.
Things to consider:
It will help with marine scv all in's as well as 1-1-1 all ins, and roach-ling all in's making it a micro war instead of purely unit compositions.
It will also make stalker harass via blink or a warp prism highly viable.
Play the custom game, and I assure you, that you'll all agree!
(The stalker still fires a projectile, its not like a voidray or marine animation, if this caused any confusion).
WORTH NOTING:
- Speedlings / marauders / speed roaches / stimmed marines still interact the EXACT same as with normal stalkers. The only difference is that it aids in small battles like all in's.
- I'm seeing a lot of, well the stalker would just own zerg early game and it would be too easy. Folks, stalkers can kite slow roaches or slow lings anyways. Its very easy and the game seems to be fine in that regard right now.
I agree. I mean if Terran can get by so easily by kiting with their rax units and zergs can kite easy with roaches (sometimes, maybe look into that?), surely one kite-using gateway unit isn't going to break the game, is it?
Really, all the basic ranged units for all the races should either behave this way, or not. Obviously the higher tech units can have different micro-feels but I think the game would be greatly improved if you could stalker/roach stutter step easier than you can now.
However, I suspect marines will continue to be the only unit that can micro its way through pretty much anything.
On September 24 2011 05:38 coddan wrote: Of all Protoss units, Stalkers is hardly the one that needs a buff. With 1.4 I doubt they're going to need anything for a foreseeable future.
Stalkers have the worst DPS/cost ratio of any unit in the game, I think making the micro for them more important would do wonders for them, and the race as a whole. I mean marines have this and they are the exact opposite, highest DPS/cost ratio unit in the game.
I'd be very interested to see a video on this. I don't know if this would be a good idea, and i don't know how it would fit in the current state of sc2, but it would still be very interesting to see. If done correctly this should not end up being a buff, but a lateral tweak.
On September 24 2011 05:38 coddan wrote: Of all Protoss units, Stalkers is hardly the one that needs a buff. With 1.4 I doubt they're going to need anything for a foreseeable future.
Stalkers have the worst DPS/cost ratio of any unit in the game, I think making the micro for them more important would do wonders for them, and the race as a whole. I mean marines have this and they are the exact opposite, highest DPS/cost ratio unit in the game.
On September 24 2011 05:42 ander wrote: I'd be very interested to see a video on this. I don't know if this would be a good idea, and i don't know how it would fit in the current state of sc2, but it would still be very interesting to see. If done correctly this should not end up being a buff, but a lateral tweak.
Theres a custom game called Stutter Stalkers.
Play it, and you'll understand the change completely.
On September 24 2011 05:39 Rob28 wrote: I agree. I mean if Terran can get by so easily by kiting with their rax units and zergs can kite easy with roaches (sometimes, maybe look into that?), surely one kite-using gateway unit isn't going to break the game, is it?
Mmm i feel as if the relationships regarding stalkers as it is right now is fine, stutter stepping vs marines taking absolutely 0 dmg is quite difficult yeah, but the amount of dmg you take only taking 1 shot from marines compared to giving one to them (especially when you factor in its a 45 hp marine and a 160ish shield+hp stalker) it's not like stalkers are exactly weak against them, it wouldnt change the relationship against marauder concussive cos it would still mean youre boned regardless... But early stalker pressure against zerg would become way too good (im talking small pokes with 1-2 before speed).
The changes, whilst would make the unit much more fun to control for us, i feel would break the early game of both matchups pretty signifcantly, forcing zerg to speedling open every single game, and not allowing terrans to poke out past their ramp/nat bunker what so ever with reactor or gasless openings.
On September 24 2011 05:39 Rob28 wrote: I agree. I mean if Terran can get by so easily by kiting with their rax units and zergs can kite easy with roaches (sometimes, maybe look into that?), surely one kite-using gateway unit isn't going to break the game, is it?
Stalkers can Kite perfectly fine though...
Stalkers cannot kite marines because of their attack delay. Its impossible, they will always take damage.
how about we give all ranged units the voidray mechanic, shooting in the front while moving ? you know this change would be accompanied by a range nerf to 5 in order for marines and roaches to be not super hard contert ? You shouldn't think one sided when thinking about changes :3. I like the current kiting it takes way more to do, those changes just sound like easy mode. I was always missing the ranged upgrade for stalkers in the core, though that would mean halluzination would never be researched lol.
On September 24 2011 05:38 coddan wrote: Of all Protoss units, Stalkers is hardly the one that needs a buff. With 1.4 I doubt they're going to need anything for a foreseeable future.
Stalkers have the worst DPS/cost ratio of any unit in the game, I think making the micro for them more important would do wonders for them, and the race as a whole. I mean marines have this and they are the exact opposite, highest DPS/cost ratio unit in the game.
Yeah but when you micro them they are useful. -.- Inane random first post.
This is definitely interesting. It was always wierd to me looking at Tempest's game on Bluestorm in BW and watching a dragoon kill 30 marines with lovely kiting and then watch sc2 where even with the best micro the stalker was almost guaranteed to recieve a modicum of damage.
edit: christ. It's interesting how good t and z's think stalkers are compared to Toss. Just play the map -.-
On September 24 2011 05:46 Ftrunkz wrote: Mmm i feel as if the relationships regarding stalkers as it is right now is fine, stutter stepping vs marines taking absolutely 0 dmg is quite difficult yeah, but the amount of dmg you take only taking 1 shot from marines compared to giving one to them (especially when you factor in its a 45 hp marine and a 160ish shield+hp stalker) it's not like stalkers are exactly weak against them, it wouldnt change the relationship against marauder concussive cos it would still mean youre boned regardless... But early stalker pressure against zerg would become way too good (im talking small pokes with 1-2 before speed).
The changes, whilst would make the unit much more fun to control for us, i feel would break the early game of both matchups pretty signifcantly, forcing zerg to speedling open every single game, and not allowing terrans to poke out past their ramp/nat bunker what so ever with reactor or gasless openings.
Oh yeah I didn't think about that, hahaha, its pretty easy to kite slowlings as they are now. A change like this would make Stalkers dominant as hell in ZvP
On September 24 2011 05:39 Rob28 wrote: I agree. I mean if Terran can get by so easily by kiting with their rax units and zergs can kite easy with roaches (sometimes, maybe look into that?), surely one kite-using gateway unit isn't going to break the game, is it?
Stalkers can Kite perfectly fine though...
Stalkers cannot kite marines because of their attack delay. Its impossible, they will always take damage.
HuK is pretty damn good at not taking damage wit those ^^.
On September 24 2011 05:39 Rob28 wrote: I agree. I mean if Terran can get by so easily by kiting with their rax units and zergs can kite easy with roaches (sometimes, maybe look into that?), surely one kite-using gateway unit isn't going to break the game, is it?
Stalkers can Kite perfectly fine though...
Stalkers cannot kite marines because of their attack delay. Its impossible, they will always take damage.
HuK is pretty damn good at not taking damage wit those ^^.
Im sorry to inform you, but its impossible to take no dmg. The time delay on the stalker is more than enough for an a-click marine to close the distance. Feel free to test it out.
This is without stim of course.
Looking forward to hearing comments about the custom game and how it feels.
On September 24 2011 05:39 Rob28 wrote: I agree. I mean if Terran can get by so easily by kiting with their rax units and zergs can kite easy with roaches (sometimes, maybe look into that?), surely one kite-using gateway unit isn't going to break the game, is it?
Stalkers can Kite perfectly fine though...
Stalkers cannot kite marines because of their attack delay. Its impossible, they will always take damage.
They can get away with receiving only Shield damage, and Shields are now much better in SC2 when you compare it to BW. If anything(because I have been thinking about this too) I'd prefer a Stalker range upgrade but that would probably break PvZ.
hmmm, maybe I dunno. I think Stalkers are ok as they are now. They might need some tweaks but overall they feel pretty ... solid
i just played the custom game, and i have to agree that it does feel better to control it but i think thats kind of a given.
i don't think this is needed to be honest. stalkers would be too dominant in the early game and it would force different openings from both zerg and terran to compensate - and when i think about it, stalkers would probably do guaranteed damage in zvp before speed is done
On September 24 2011 05:39 Rob28 wrote: I agree. I mean if Terran can get by so easily by kiting with their rax units and zergs can kite easy with roaches (sometimes, maybe look into that?), surely one kite-using gateway unit isn't going to break the game, is it?
Stalkers can Kite perfectly fine though...
Stalkers cannot kite marines because of their attack delay. Its impossible, they will always take damage.
Kiting doesn't mean taking no damage, just less damage. taking no damage while killing the other unit is hard countering and that is boring.
Armored, all-purpose, 6range, teleporting robots with the attack delay of a Marine and improved turn speed! Yeah ... I doubt it. But we can dream, right?
Post the attack delay before, and after, as well as the regular attack cooldown. I'd be willing to bet this actually increases DPS also.
On September 24 2011 05:39 Rob28 wrote: I agree. I mean if Terran can get by so easily by kiting with their rax units and zergs can kite easy with roaches (sometimes, maybe look into that?), surely one kite-using gateway unit isn't going to break the game, is it?
Stalkers can Kite perfectly fine though...
Stalkers cannot kite marines because of their attack delay. Its impossible, they will always take damage.
They can get away with receiving only Shield damage, and Shields are now much better in SC2 when you compare it to BW. If anything(because I have been thinking about this too) I'd prefer a Stalker range upgrade but that would probably break PvZ.
hmmm, maybe I dunno. I think Stalkers are ok as they are now. They might need some tweaks but overall they feel pretty ... solid
The problem is, 3 stalkers vs 9 marines, and the marines deal enough dps to negate kiting all together. Stalkers don't have enough shields to be able to even come close to winning the battle. They can single target and nearly 1 hit the stalkers dead.
This is why marine all in's of any kind are very hard to deal with.
Stalkers kiting even better seems ridiculous. It works fine for marines because they are not that fast, and stim is only temporary + damage. Stalkers are WAY faster and with blink can avoid an insane amount of damage if micro'd.
On September 24 2011 05:51 Elite__ wrote: i just played the custom game, and i have to agree that it does feel better to control it but i think thats kind of a given.
i don't think this is needed to be honest. stalkers would be too dominant in the early game and it would force different openings from both zerg and terran to compensate - and when i think about it, stalkers would probably do guaranteed damage in zvp before speed is done
They usually always guarentee damage with no spines.
On September 24 2011 05:38 coddan wrote: Of all Protoss units, Stalkers is hardly the one that needs a buff. With 1.4 I doubt they're going to need anything for a foreseeable future.
Yeah, why buff the unit with the worst DPS/cost ratio in the entire game?
This would be great. It's would also finally add an early game APM sink unit, that isn't the phoenix. It'd be a great early game help vs terran, and mid-late game you could offset the ability to kite so well by increasing the blink cooldown.
Speedlings with the blink timing now pushed back can easily negate blink stalker all in's with a couple spines. You can cost effectively hold it off even with the buff. I tested it.
Maybe a better fix would be for Marines to be nerfed, rather than for Stalkers to be buffed if you think the relationship has a problem.
Stalkers are an amazingly good unit, effective in almost any situation and can be used for almost any role. They are tough units (160hp, same as a Tank, though 1 armor only covers half, they have quickly regenerating shields) with good range (6, more than all other early units (including the Hydra) except the Marauder and now the Immortal), and very good mobility (fast moving with Blink optional). Their DPS and overall cost is really their only weakpoints.
Stalkers have that restriction on them for a reason. They're already have the most utility and versitility out of all the Protoss units IMO. Imagine how powerful blink all in would be?
Hellions also have a ridiculous attack delay on them, which is the difference between hellions and vultures from sc1, and is what made vultures feel so much more responsive. However, with the change in their attack, they would be completely overpowered, especially against lings.
I think if Protoss were to be buffed, it would be in a way that wouldn't shut down all chances of expanding reasonably for other races.
ALSO, you should wait and see how much this immortal buff does for the protoss race before come up with more buffs. The immortal is a very powerful unit, and increasing the range increases the effective DPS and overall utility.
With their burst damage and range they should now be really useful in a Protoss deathball to combat units being healed with medivacs.
On September 24 2011 05:38 coddan wrote: Of all Protoss units, Stalkers is hardly the one that needs a buff. With 1.4 I doubt they're going to need anything for a foreseeable future.
Yeah, why buff the unit with the worst DPS/cost ratio in the entire game?
Because DPS/Cost Ratio don't tell everything about the unit?
Stalkers have a huge mobility advantage in early game, with Blink they even have a higher mobility. Not everything is about A moving shit into each other.
As I said Stalkers may not be the BEST UNIT OMG AWESOME, but they are pretty solid as a unit.
just played the map and i think its completely unnecessary. stalkers arent marines and with blink in conjunction with movement speed they are a fine unit as is. i know it might seem unfair to lower level players who dont have the micro chops to stutter step stalkers when facing a marine scv allin, but its something you have to deal with if you want to improve as a player. this makes stalkers way too strong against small numbers of marines and roaches imo
On September 24 2011 05:38 coddan wrote: Of all Protoss units, Stalkers is hardly the one that needs a buff. With 1.4 I doubt they're going to need anything for a foreseeable future.
Yeah, why buff the unit with the worst DPS/cost ratio in the entire game?
Because DPS/Cost Ratio don't tell everything about the unit?
Stalkers have a huge mobility advantage in early game, with Blink they even have a higher mobility. Not everything is about A moving shit into each other.
As I said Stalkers may not be the BEST UNIT OMG AWESOME, but they are pretty solid as a unit.
They lose to any composition of speed roaches, speedlings, marines or marauders every single time cost inefficiently.
I was experimenting with the galaxy editor and I decided to give marines grenade launchers to go along with their assault rifle and it felt natural and 100% better than normal marines. It was even better when I changed it to fire 2 grenades at the same time! You guys should test it out. I think blizzard should adopt this change so stalkers cant kite them.
If anything I would like more of a nerf to marines(make then have 1 less range but add an 50/50 upgrade a la concusive shell to get it back) so that they don't feel so godly early game XD.But oh well theres no point in discussing that because I am not making the game
I just tried it and yeah, they (Stalkers) obviously feel much better to control, but I fear what this would do in the hands of a competent progamer.
On September 24 2011 05:38 coddan wrote: Of all Protoss units, Stalkers is hardly the one that needs a buff. With 1.4 I doubt they're going to need anything for a foreseeable future.
Yeah, why buff the unit with the worst DPS/cost ratio in the entire game?
Because DPS/Cost Ratio don't tell everything about the unit?
Stalkers have a huge mobility advantage in early game, with Blink they even have a higher mobility. Not everything is about A moving shit into each other.
As I said Stalkers may not be the BEST UNIT OMG AWESOME, but they are pretty solid as a unit.
They lose to any composition of speed roaches, speedlings, marines or marauders every single time cost inefficiently.
What does that have to do with mobility?_?
I didn't claim that they were Cost effective in direct fights....
Stalkers would be ridiculously OP without an attack delay. Their combination of high speed, range, and shields already make them the best hit and run unit in the game. With basic micro, they can already kite marines and speedless lings very easily as is, taking minimal damage.
On September 24 2011 06:01 bucckevin wrote: I was experimenting with the galaxy editor and I decided to give marines grenade launchers to go along with their assault rifle and it felt natural and 100% better than normal marines. It was even better when I changed it to fire 2 grenades at the same time! You guys should test it out. I think blizzard should adopt this change so stalkers cant kite them.
I think you're missing the point of this thread. It's not like the OP added concussive shells to stalkers or anything like that, this is just a discussion on removing the attack delay on them. It's the same as if the attack delay was removed on hellions, they would feel much smoother to control.
On September 24 2011 05:38 coddan wrote: Of all Protoss units, Stalkers is hardly the one that needs a buff. With 1.4 I doubt they're going to need anything for a foreseeable future.
Yeah, why buff the unit with the worst DPS/cost ratio in the entire game?
Because DPS/Cost Ratio don't tell everything about the unit?
Stalkers have a huge mobility advantage in early game, with Blink they even have a higher mobility. Not everything is about A moving shit into each other.
As I said Stalkers may not be the BEST UNIT OMG AWESOME, but they are pretty solid as a unit.
They lose to any composition of speed roaches, speedlings, marines or marauders every single time cost inefficiently.
What does that have to do with mobility?_?
I didn't claim that they were Cost effective in direct fights....
I was just pointing out that they lose cost inefficiently even with their mobility. The unit has to attack sometime. And this wont change even after this alteration.
Also, I decided to post it on TL because the comments here are highly constructive and its the best community to help produce constructive feedback on such a change.
On September 24 2011 05:38 coddan wrote: Of all Protoss units, Stalkers is hardly the one that needs a buff. With 1.4 I doubt they're going to need anything for a foreseeable future.
Yeah, why buff the unit with the worst DPS/cost ratio in the entire game?
Because DPS/Cost Ratio don't tell everything about the unit?
Stalkers have a huge mobility advantage in early game, with Blink they even have a higher mobility. Not everything is about A moving shit into each other.
As I said Stalkers may not be the BEST UNIT OMG AWESOME, but they are pretty solid as a unit.
They lose to any composition of speed roaches, speedlings, marines or marauders every single time cost inefficiently.
God help us if Toss had more viable units or could put pressure on in the early game. MIght not be able to 1rax fe and a-move across the map. You would think that the most expensive "basic" unit would have some direct confrontation ability.
On September 24 2011 06:06 Bagi wrote: Blink stalkers are possibly the most massable unit in the game, so its hard to justify buffing them.
On September 24 2011 05:38 coddan wrote: Of all Protoss units, Stalkers is hardly the one that needs a buff. With 1.4 I doubt they're going to need anything for a foreseeable future.
Stalkers are horribly weak. They need to be since they have blink. That's why the Immortal is the real spiritual successor to the dragoon.
I don't know about this. Yes it would be nice to have better control of stalkers but it would completely ruin pvt early game. The only viable opening for terran would be fast conc shell + marauder.
On September 24 2011 05:40 Rachnar wrote: it would make it so they can kite marines early game without even being hit ... on a map like taldarim that'd be pretty imba
no it would force terrans to experiment and do other stuff other than mass marine all ins i think this would be an excellent change if this were to happen, but knowing blizzard it will remain unnoticed and unchanged
On September 24 2011 06:09 PHILtheTANK wrote: I don't know about this. Yes it would be nice to have better control of stalkers but it would completely ruin pvt early game. The only viable opening for terran would be fast conc shell + marauder.
Or you could get a bunker......
1rax FE stops a zealot stalker poke by getting a bunker. This doesn't actually do much to change that. Every time a stalker goes in to shoot at the bunker it will still get shot x4 by marines. What it will allow is for stalkers to very effectively punish gasless zerg and terran builds. I personally don't think that's a bad thing, zergs and terran have been getting a bit complacent about protoss early pressure because quite frankly it isn't scary.
The problem with making any adjustment to stalkers is that they're currently quite strong against zerg and quite weak against terran. You can't really do anything to them without messing up one of the match-ups.
Due to game design, Stalkers are really strong. They're expensive but due to mobility and versatility and blink and relatively low supply for a strong lategame composition, I really don't think they need to be buffed.
Didn't know there was a problem with current Marine vs Stalker micro. Yeah you take some damage, but that's what made the micro interesting. How much focus firing, pulling low hp stalker back, arc you managed to get...etc made it good. If you can kite marines now without taking any damage, it sort of makes it boring. Pros with great control already get a hell of a lot out of their stalkers vs unupgraded marines. If this was patched, it would almost be OP.
On September 24 2011 05:46 FeyFey wrote: how about we give all ranged units the voidray mechanic, shooting in the front while moving ? you know this change would be accompanied by a range nerf to 5 in order for marines and roaches to be not super hard contert ? You shouldn't think one sided when thinking about changes :3. I like the current kiting it takes way more to do, those changes just sound like easy mode. I was always missing the ranged upgrade for stalkers in the core, though that would mean halluzination would never be researched lol.
I'm imagining Stalker pressure against Zergs who take late gasses and have to use slow Lings to chase aggressive Stalkers down where the Stalker can stutter without that quarter second of stopping time on the map. Scares me.
Even Stalkers against slow Roaches, which Stalkers seem to be able to kite really, really well because of their faster attack/movement speeds and longer range (not sure if they can kite without taking damage ever in small fights atm) would seem to be all too good.
A Stalker can already kill infinite amount of marines if microd properly and given enough room to maneuver. I would prefer to see a slight added attack delay to the marines, it actually doesnt take that much skill to studder-step marines because they react instantaneously.
Terrans saying Stalkers are too good against Marines honestly makes my head hurt.
Ditto for Zergs complaining about Stalkers having too much mobility.
I don't even think there's any point to discussing any buff or nerf to anything on TL. If someone made a thread campaigning for Carrier buffs, I'm certain there'd be a ton of "Carriers are too good already, and you want to buff them?!?" replies. Sigh.
interesting. Would love to see how this can effect other units. Maybe make hydras more feesable as well? my zerg bias makes me think of my units.. and the hydra could use a change like this, would be cool if they could pop in and out of a colossi's lances. Damnit now im thinking about this a lot!
On September 24 2011 05:39 Rob28 wrote: I agree. I mean if Terran can get by so easily by kiting with their rax units and zergs can kite easy with roaches (sometimes, maybe look into that?), surely one kite-using gateway unit isn't going to break the game, is it?
It should be mandatory to show these changes in a Youtube video, would totally improve discussion if everyone is on the same page right from the start.
On September 24 2011 06:16 R0YAL wrote: A Stalker can already kill infinite amount of marines if microd properly and given enough room to maneuver. I would prefer to see a slight added attack delay to the marines, it actually doesnt take that much skill to studder-step marines because they react instantaneously.
If you've ever actually tried in a game, a stalker doesn't kill infinite marines. Even with perfect stutter step the marine that gets shot by the stalker can ALWAYS shoot back, and usually the marines to the left and right of that guy also gets to shoot. Sure you could kill infinite marines on a completely open large map and a dumb opponent, but in reality you won't do very much damage to a gasless FE with a well placed bunker.
Having instantaneous turning and no attack delay is what makes marines imba. I do think it would make it pretty damn hard to fight off a blink stalker rush with Zerg.
Off topic: I wonder how much the roach would change if the attack damage was dealt instantaneously instead of only when the projectile reached the target. In other words, how much would the roach change is there was no overkill?
I tried out the map and had wayyy to much fun. Like others said I feel that this isn't the answer to the "protoss problems" and would make certain aspects of early game very OP for protoss. That being said i still feel this is really cool idea!
On September 24 2011 06:16 R0YAL wrote: A Stalker can already kill infinite amount of marines if microd properly and given enough room to maneuver. I would prefer to see a slight added attack delay to the marines, it actually doesnt take that much skill to studder-step marines because they react instantaneously.
If you've ever actually tried in a game, a stalker doesn't kill infinite marines. Even with perfect stutter step the marine that gets shot by the stalker can ALWAYS shoot back, and usually the marines to the left and right of that guy also gets to shoot. Sure you could kill infinite marines on a completely open large map and a dumb opponent, but in reality you won't do very much damage to a gasless FE with a well placed bunker.
You know, stalkers can't be too smart or agile, they come from the dragoon, they can't shit on their roots...Everyone loves his family, even if it's a retarded family.
This has always been my biggest problem with the stalker. This attack delay means that no matter how good your micro is you will always receive damage from marine and roaches. This change just makes stalkers more of a rewarding unit to use.
One problem I see with this is making stalkers too strong against zealots in PvP, nobody will build zealots if they are so easy to kite, and blink stalker builds will be infinitely more powerful as a result. It also means you can snipe immortals much better than you normally would as retreating is a lot easier.
Also it removes a bit of skill from the game, think back to the slowest, most unreliable unit in Brood War, the reaver. The reaver was awesome precisely because of how difficult it was to control/use, it made players work on their shuttle micro (shuttles themselves having terrible turning and acceleration) to incorporate reaver play. It does feel nicer to micro more nimble stalkers, but it is also a lot easier which lowers the skill needed to micro them properly.
I think it's extremely important and worth noting that focus firing with stalkers reduces their effectiveness due to attack delay.
This is obviously not true in all cases (in very small scale fights, e.g. less than 5 stalkers, it is not that case), but is true for any decent number of stalkers (8+).
Go into a unit tester (like unit_test_map_solo) and just try to focus fire one group of stalkers vs. another. The focus firing group ALWAYS LOSES (assuming no other micro), because of overkill and wasted attack-delay (if you tell a stalker to change target before it's able to fire, it has to do the attack delay all over again).
Seriously, go try it yourself, it's dumb.
On September 24 2011 06:28 XenoX101 wrote: One problem I see with this is making stalkers too strong against zealots in PvP, nobody will build zealots if they are so easy to kite, and blink stalker builds will be infinitely more powerful as a result. It also means you can snipe immortals much better than you normally would as retreating is a lot easier.
Immortals have equal range now, so it shouldn't matter. It's true about zealots, but honestly that doesn't seem like such a huge problem. Stalkers already dominate early game PvP.
I feel like this change to stalkers simply puts more control into the hands of the player.
On September 24 2011 06:28 XenoX101 wrote: One problem I see with this is making stalkers too strong against zealots in PvP, nobody will build zealots if they are so easy to kite, and blink stalker builds will be infinitely more powerful as a result. It also means you can snipe immortals much better than you normally would as retreating is a lot easier.
Also it removes a bit of skill from the game, think back to the slowest, most unreliable unit in Brood War, the reaver. The reaver was awesome precisely because of how difficult it was to control/use, it made players work on their shuttle micro (shuttles themselves having terrible turning and acceleration) to incorporate reaver play. It does feel nicer to micro more nimble stalkers, but it is also a lot easier which lowers the skill needed to micro them properly.
To that I would say that stalkers already kite zealots very very easily.
I wish we could just have Dragoons back. Even if all stats remained the same and they had to have their size reduced a little. Dragoons just look so badass.
Obviously I would love to see this change as a P, but I too think it may make Stalkers too strong during early game pressure (kiting/harassing marines and lings would be a lot easier), needs testing I guess..
On September 24 2011 06:28 XenoX101 wrote: One problem I see with this is making stalkers too strong against zealots in PvP, nobody will build zealots if they are so easy to kite, and blink stalker builds will be infinitely more powerful as a result. It also means you can snipe immortals much better than you normally would as retreating is a lot easier.
Also it removes a bit of skill from the game, think back to the slowest, most unreliable unit in Brood War, the reaver. The reaver was awesome precisely because of how difficult it was to control/use, it made players work on their shuttle micro (shuttles themselves having terrible turning and acceleration) to incorporate reaver play. It does feel nicer to micro more nimble stalkers, but it is also a lot easier which lowers the skill needed to micro them properly.
Nobody builds zealots anyway in PvP unless your going for charge with almost negates blink as charge is so fast it hits you before you can blink away.
I really believe that anything that rewards micro or skill is a great addition to SC2.
Microable units actually that you can get a lot out of, if you are good enough, is a mean to overcome balance issues. Terran units have great micro potential, so that good terrans can make them even more powerful than they already are.
Giving the stalker the possibility to profit more from skill is a good way to race the skill ceiling of SC2 which it badly needs.
Some say it might force speedling openers every game from zerg or kill certain terran openers... Why is this a bad thing???
When I watch BW, the basic builds in any match up are pretty much the same and still BW is the best competitive RTS ever created. It is the execution and the nuances that made BW what it is now - not the fact that you had a game of dice rolling at the start of each game which build players would go.
IMO if it makes stalkers too strong, it should still go into the game and stalkers should just get a slight damage nerf or something. Giving more control to players is always desirable, makes the game MUCH more fun and more skill-based.
On September 24 2011 05:38 coddan wrote: Of all Protoss units, Stalkers is hardly the one that needs a buff. With 1.4 I doubt they're going to need anything for a foreseeable future.
Stalkers have the worst DPS/cost ratio of any unit in the game, I think making the micro for them more important would do wonders for them, and the race as a whole. I mean marines have this and they are the exact opposite, highest DPS/cost ratio unit in the game.
Actually motherships, archons, sentries and colossus all have lower dsp/cost ratios compared to the stalker. As do ghosts, hellions against not light, banelings against not light, ultralisks, and corruptors.
On September 24 2011 05:35 axellerate wrote: Original Thread By Arch (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/3229374433):
This is something interesting to consider for stalkers. I was experimenting with the galaxy editor and I decided to remove the attack delay that occurs between the time when an attack command is issued and a laser is fired. To avoid confusion, this has nothing to do with the time in between each attack. It is a measure of how quickly the unit responds to the attack command.
Then secondly as part of this particular experiment, I had increased the firing arc to 360 degrees. I figured this feature is what really made dragoons so badass, so I wanted to check out the stalkers with this feature.
The combined effect of these two tweaks was that the stalkers felt more smooth and responsive to commands, almost like driving a bmw compared to an old ford. The biggest consequence of the changes was that their "stutter step" capabilities were greatly improved. In the middle of a heated battle, I could move - shoot - move - shoot - move - shoot and maneuver around the battle pretty much without losing any dps. In my opinion the change gives the stalker the ability to use it's strong attributes (speed, mobility, and range) to their maximum potential in a way that is fun and demands micro.
Also, in my honest opinion, the change was not so extreme that the stalkers felt overpowered. It was still very tight to micro against marines, for example. But it made it doable. Stalkers vs marines currently, even with the 1 range differential, is near impossible to stutter-step micro because marines have 0 delay and a near immediate turning speed, meanwhile stalkers have a crippling attack delay, and a slower turning speed. I didn't take exact notes on the turning speed numbers, so you will have to forgive me on that one.
Also I should note that this change does not increase a stalkers dps. It decreases the *drop* in dps when stalkers are shooting on the move, and it does it in a way that scales with micro. IMO it's an awesome change.
So that was my experiment.
I think it would be cool if some of you out there could try out these settings in your editor and let me know what you think of it. Maybe it's the spark that stalkers needed to be appreciated.
Thanks for taking the time to read.
A dragoon that can fire as a fast a marine, brilliant.
If this is a problem, they should give the marine an attack delay. We don't need more broken units like the marine that can attack while moving. This change would be terrible.
Hmmm, I actually went and tried it with a Human friend and yeah it feels really nice and it really feels like I have more breathing room when I try to Micro against marines.
That being said, pros with good micro might make this too strong. I like it though I won´t lie
I'd be very interested in seeing a statistic on the average overkill Stalkers have per Stalker that was attacking. I get the feeling it'd be worryingly high.
I don't see how this would be grossly overpowered in any way. Didn't BW Terran have to build a bunker due to dragoons anyway? It's a bit silly that it's impossible to take a gasless FE in PvT but relatively easy in TvP.
And besides, opening gas first against a 1-gate expo Protoss isn't very economically damaging.
On September 24 2011 06:09 PHILtheTANK wrote: I don't know about this. Yes it would be nice to have better control of stalkers but it would completely ruin pvt early game. The only viable opening for terran would be fast conc shell + marauder.
Or you could get a bunker......
1rax FE stops a zealot stalker poke by getting a bunker. This doesn't actually do much to change that. Every time a stalker goes in to shoot at the bunker it will still get shot x4 by marines. What it will allow is for stalkers to very effectively punish gasless zerg and terran builds. I personally don't think that's a bad thing, zergs and terran have been getting a bit complacent about protoss early pressure because quite frankly it isn't scary.
It doesn't punish gasless terran expands, it completely negates them. Sure you can build an in base cc and bunker your ramp but you will never be able to actually take your expansion before marauders.
there was a dps comparision between hydra and marines where they remove the projectile speed from beta. removing it make hydra dominate marines while keeping it make marines > hydra. Changing stalkers like that is a huge buff and i dont think its necessary as a Protoss player.
I would love this change, but IMO let 1.4 settle for now. It makes me wonder whether in the hands of someone like HuK, blink openings in PvZ/T could become a bit too powerful though
I know that they can already kite roaches/lings/marines right now to some good affect, but this could just allow a little too much wiggle room
On September 24 2011 06:56 MattBarry wrote: I don't see how this would be grossly overpowered in any way. Didn't BW Terran have to build a bunker due to dragoons anyway? It's a bit silly that it's impossible to take a gasless FE in PvT but relatively easy in TvP.
And besides, opening gas first against a 1-gate expo Protoss isn't very economically damaging.
The issue is there isn't a problem in pvt with gasless fast expands.... there is there a problem with 1-1-1 and ghosts.... why change something that there's nothing wrong with.
On September 24 2011 06:34 Iamyournoob wrote: I really believe that anything that rewards micro or skill is a great addition to SC2.
Microable units actually that you can get a lot out of, if you are good enough, is a mean to overcome balance issues. Terran units have great micro potential, so that good terrans can make them even more powerful than they already are.
Giving the stalker the possibility to profit more from skill is a good way to race the skill ceiling of SC2 which it badly needs.
Some say it might force speedling openers every game from zerg or kill certain terran openers... Why is this a bad thing???
When I watch BW, the basic builds in any match up are pretty much the same and still BW is the best competitive RTS ever created. It is the execution and the nuances that made BW what it is now - not the fact that you had a game of dice rolling at the start of each game which build players would go.
SC2 does not need a raised skill ceiling for micro. Maybe when protoss players actually start to send zealots in first, we can talk.
Removing the attack delay does not increase the micro skill ceiling for stalkers at all. Just like how the delay makes using hellions against lings non-trivial.
On September 24 2011 05:38 coddan wrote: Of all Protoss units, Stalkers is hardly the one that needs a buff. With 1.4 I doubt they're going to need anything for a foreseeable future.
Yeah, why buff the unit with the worst DPS/cost ratio in the entire game?
because it already has mobility, blink, and retainability vs zerg en masse. it hits both ground and air and isn't meant to be a good dps unit. its meant to be a unit with shit dps that is a 'jack of all trades' and good en masse with blink vs zerg.
I played the map, and this change is actually very minor. You still have to stop your stalkers for a considerable amount of time to allow them to fire, even if they technically have 0 attack delay. Same for sentries. If you move them too quickly, even if you see the bubbles on the target, you will cancel the damage from going through.
If blizzard had implemented this change, I think no one would have noticed the differences except at maybe high level PvP, and people who are particularly sensitive to annoying little delays.
People have to realize a buff like this obviously needs to be compensated, probably by nerfing blink. Stalkers are a fine unit as they are but whether they are fun to use as they are now is to be debated. Marines are much more fun to handle precisely because of the fast stutter-stepping potential. Stalkers are the type of unit you have to be so careful with despite them still being a core part of any protoss army (precisely because Blizzard decided to make a core-unit also a harass unit. The stalker is a bit like the muta - versatile and mobile but not a good unit for engagement). They don't really have any potential to be a 'fun' unit like marines or speedlings or reapers where careful use reaps huge rewards.Marines / speedlings / reapers are fragile but can do great dps / kite units / snipe buildings well with high-level control. Being able to stutter-step makes a huge difference, but having perfect stalker control doesn't give the user a huge advantage.
On September 24 2011 06:34 Iamyournoob wrote: I really believe that anything that rewards micro or skill is a great addition to SC2.
Microable units actually that you can get a lot out of, if you are good enough, is a mean to overcome balance issues. Terran units have great micro potential, so that good terrans can make them even more powerful than they already are.
Giving the stalker the possibility to profit more from skill is a good way to race the skill ceiling of SC2 which it badly needs.
Some say it might force speedling openers every game from zerg or kill certain terran openers... Why is this a bad thing???
When I watch BW, the basic builds in any match up are pretty much the same and still BW is the best competitive RTS ever created. It is the execution and the nuances that made BW what it is now - not the fact that you had a game of dice rolling at the start of each game which build players would go.
SC2 does not need a raised skill ceiling for micro. Maybe when protoss players actually start to send zealots in first, we can talk.
Removing the attack delay does not increase the micro skill ceiling for stalkers at all. Just like how the delay makes using hellions against lings non-trivial.
Good protoss players do send their zealots in first, stop with this trash.
On September 24 2011 06:57 NB wrote: there was a dps comparision between hydra and marines where they remove the projectile speed from beta. removing it make hydra dominate marines while keeping it make marines > hydra. Changing stalkers like that is a huge buff and i dont think its necessary as a Protoss player.
I think you mean the one where someone changed the hydras stats to exactly match those of the marines, the only difference being the projectile speed. It just showed that having instant damage as opposed to a slower projectile makes a big difference in a straight up fight. It didn´t say anything about balance between hydras and marines.
I think this change would be fun, allowing for more magical moments in games. It lessens the artificial limits and gives more pure mechanical ones.
On September 24 2011 06:43 lotrscwow wrote: i would be fine if they did this with stalkers if they also did it with roaches and hydras
This! Why not just bring the other races up to be on par with terran? How is the marine the only unit of the bunch that is allowed to have smart firing and instant damage? There was a topic a long time ago that took a group of 10 hydras vs 10 marines, made all of their damage/cooldown/range/hp/armor stats the same, so basically they are the same unit. Except for one thing. The hydras had their projectile spit attack animation still, while the marines had their insta bullets. Guess what happens? The marines annihilate the hydras, winning with more than half still left over.
This change doesn't even give stalkers that, it just makes it so they have no lag time between when you tell them to fire and when they fire, which is what the marine does. It would still be worse than the marine's mechanics of bullets instantly appearing in the enemy unit's head. Why not make the game more micro intensive by adding this to roaches/hydras/stalkers. Terrans are doing well because of lots of little advantages like these adding up. Why not put everyone on an even playing field for just one of them?
As much as I would like this change, I don't think that it will ever be implemented. If anything the trend is to nerf stalkers (blink nerf).
Although I don't think that it would affect low level play that much because it's quite an intensive micro anyway. In PvT, it would only help against marine pressure/all in before stim and to maybe *really* force a bunker (or even several of them). In PvZ, it's a bit the same, Protoss could pressure gasless zerg expands more but nothing too silly, right? In PvP, with the Immortal buff, you can't kite perfectly immortals, so I feel that it would be fine. Before 1.4, I think that "Stutter stalkers" could outmicro perfectly an 5-range immortal. However that would make PvP an even more stalker-centric matchup (except if there is somehow a metagame shift after the patch)
Overall, this wouldn't be that critical of a change (irrelevant for low level, rebalancing a bit for high level), but I don't think that Blizzard wants protoss to be able to pressure the other 2 races early on, that's just the design of their game. And they don't want stalkers to be too good obviously, their concept is to be a jack-of-all-trades master-of-none kind of unit.
I tested it and unless you have perfect micro a roach can still get a hit on a stalker. People are completely overreacting to a small change like this.
On September 24 2011 07:06 Buddhist wrote: I played the map, and this change is actually very minor. You still have to stop your stalkers for a considerable amount of time to allow them to fire, even if they technically have 0 attack delay. Same for sentries. If you move them too quickly, even if you see the bubbles on the target, you will cancel the damage from going through.
If blizzard had implemented this change, I think no one would have noticed the differences except at maybe high level PvP, and people who are particularly sensitive to annoying little delays.
I´ll have to disagree, its pretty noticeable. Kiting marines feels much more forgivable, but yeah its quite nice and it doesn´t feel that bad?
but as I have said in the hands of someone with awesome Micro it might become much more stronger.
On September 24 2011 06:34 Iamyournoob wrote: I really believe that anything that rewards micro or skill is a great addition to SC2.
Microable units actually that you can get a lot out of, if you are good enough, is a mean to overcome balance issues. Terran units have great micro potential, so that good terrans can make them even more powerful than they already are.
Giving the stalker the possibility to profit more from skill is a good way to race the skill ceiling of SC2 which it badly needs.
Some say it might force speedling openers every game from zerg or kill certain terran openers... Why is this a bad thing???
When I watch BW, the basic builds in any match up are pretty much the same and still BW is the best competitive RTS ever created. It is the execution and the nuances that made BW what it is now - not the fact that you had a game of dice rolling at the start of each game which build players would go.
SC2 does not need a raised skill ceiling for micro. Maybe when protoss players actually start to send zealots in first, we can talk.
Removing the attack delay does not increase the micro skill ceiling for stalkers at all. Just like how the delay makes using hellions against lings non-trivial.
Good protoss players do send their zealots in first, stop with this trash.
It's an example, no need to get hostile. The actual point in my post is that an attack delay does not necessarily mean that a unit is easier to use. On the contrary actually.
On September 24 2011 07:11 DNA61289 wrote: I tested it and unless you have perfect micro a roach can still get a hit on a stalker. People are completely overreacting to a small change like this.
Yep. In moderate numbers, like 8 vs 8, it's almost impossible to avoid hits against Roaches even with the change.
Play the map before saying it'd be OP. Chances are, you won't even be able to tell there's a difference.
On September 24 2011 05:35 axellerate wrote: - I'm seeing a lot of, well the stalker would just own zerg early game and it would be too easy. Folks, stalkers can kite slow roaches or slow lings anyways. Its very easy and the game seems to be fine in that regard right now.
LOL nice logic. "Stalkers can easily kite stuff as it is right now, it won't change anything by making them easier to stutter step micro with." It's like saying that marines w/o Stim are the same as with Stim. "They are already easy to stutter step. Making it easier to do it won't change anything". o_o
"Can bring protoss back into the game" - You got a fucking patch a few days ago, can you at least wait for that to settle in before demanding more buffs?
I approve... It simply makes for a slightly more thoughtful build order from the other two races, and make gasless builds slightly more dangerous since Protoss is the only race that can't live long without gas but the other two can go for minutes on end without it.
On September 24 2011 05:35 axellerate wrote: - I'm seeing a lot of, well the stalker would just own zerg early game and it would be too easy. Folks, stalkers can kite slow roaches or slow lings anyways. Its very easy and the game seems to be fine in that regard right now.
LOL nice logic. "Stalkers can easily kite stuff as it is right now, it won't change anything by making them easier to stutter step micro with." It's like saying that marines w/o Stim are the same as with Stim. "They are already easy to stutter step. Making it easier to do it won't change anything". o_o
Agreed. This will make it nearly impossible to hold off early game stalker aggression without heavy losses (until speed finishes).
On September 24 2011 06:34 Iamyournoob wrote: I really believe that anything that rewards micro or skill is a great addition to SC2.
Microable units actually that you can get a lot out of, if you are good enough, is a mean to overcome balance issues. Terran units have great micro potential, so that good terrans can make them even more powerful than they already are.
Giving the stalker the possibility to profit more from skill is a good way to race the skill ceiling of SC2 which it badly needs.
Some say it might force speedling openers every game from zerg or kill certain terran openers... Why is this a bad thing???
When I watch BW, the basic builds in any match up are pretty much the same and still BW is the best competitive RTS ever created. It is the execution and the nuances that made BW what it is now - not the fact that you had a game of dice rolling at the start of each game which build players would go.
SC2 does not need a raised skill ceiling for micro. Maybe when protoss players actually start to send zealots in first, we can talk.
Removing the attack delay does not increase the micro skill ceiling for stalkers at all. Just like how the delay makes using hellions against lings non-trivial.
Good protoss players do send their zealots in first, stop with this trash.
It's an example, no need to get hostile. The actual point in my post is that an attack delay does not necessarily mean that a unit is easier to use. On the contrary actually.
It reallyy wouldn't make them harder or easier to use...... it would just make them better. Its a given that when you're stalker kiting you'll take hits, with this change you'd takke a lot less.
On September 24 2011 05:35 axellerate wrote: - I'm seeing a lot of, well the stalker would just own zerg early game and it would be too easy. Folks, stalkers can kite slow roaches or slow lings anyways. Its very easy and the game seems to be fine in that regard right now.
LOL nice logic. "Stalkers can easily kite stuff as it is right now, it won't change anything by making them easier to stutter step micro with." It's like saying that marines w/o Stim are the same as with Stim. "They are already easy to stutter step. Making it easier to do it won't change anything". o_o
Except stim increases dps by 50%, and this change increases dps by 0%.
Play the map and try it yourself, you won't even see a difference.
On September 24 2011 05:35 axellerate wrote: - I'm seeing a lot of, well the stalker would just own zerg early game and it would be too easy. Folks, stalkers can kite slow roaches or slow lings anyways. Its very easy and the game seems to be fine in that regard right now.
LOL nice logic. "Stalkers can easily kite stuff as it is right now, it won't change anything by making them easier to stutter step micro with." It's like saying that marines w/o Stim are the same as with Stim. "They are already easy to stutter step. Making it easier to do it won't change anything". o_o
Agreed. This will make it nearly impossible to hold off early game stalker aggression without heavy losses (until speed finishes).
It makes spines more crucial of a decision, and it makes speed for lings a more crucial decision. Even without speed 1 spine is enough to deter any stalker aggression; you can't really approach the hatch even if they don't have speed but just more lings and the queen is there.
On September 24 2011 05:35 axellerate wrote: - I'm seeing a lot of, well the stalker would just own zerg early game and it would be too easy. Folks, stalkers can kite slow roaches or slow lings anyways. Its very easy and the game seems to be fine in that regard right now.
LOL nice logic. "Stalkers can easily kite stuff as it is right now, it won't change anything by making them easier to stutter step micro with." It's like saying that marines w/o Stim are the same as with Stim. "They are already easy to stutter step. Making it easier to do it won't change anything". o_o
Except stim increases dps by 50%, and this change increases dps by 0%.
Play the map and try it yourself, you won't even see a difference.
Right, to clarify the damage measured isn't increased, just the start of when damage is measured occurs ever so slightly ahead of before.
so how does this change affect stalker vs roach? its all well and good talking about pvt but stalkers with upgrades are already a pain for zerg to deal with in mass, if they were super easy to micro its gonna have an affect.
im all for changes that make micro more important but people dont seem to be talking about how it affects the whole game
Jesus, I don't know what you people are thinking. Toss has been going through hard times for ~5 weeks now. How long did zerg go through hard times? 5-6 months?
Learn to adapt and innovate like us zergs did, and stop looking for "balance" fixes.
Just because Protoss is no longer blatantly OP and you need to work for your wins doesnt mean your race is under powered.
On September 24 2011 07:30 Papulatus wrote: Protoss doesn't need more buffs.
Jesus, I don't know what you people are thinking. Toss has been going through hard times for ~5 weeks now. How long did zerg go through hard times? 5-6 months?
Learn to adapt and innovate like us zergs did, and stop looking for "balance" fixes.
Just because Protoss is no longer blatantly OP and you need to work for your wins doesnt mean your race is under powered.
No amount of innovation can out micro marines with stalkers.
On September 24 2011 07:29 Holykitty wrote: so how does this change affect stalker vs roach? its all well and good talking about pvt but stalkers with upgrades are already a pain for zerg to deal with in mass, if they were super easy to micro its gonna have an affect.
im all for changes that make micro more important but people dont seem to be talking about how it affects the whole game
This change only changes early game interactions. So Mass Blink Stalkers will still be the same or similar enough. I might try it later though
i've been complaining about the stalker attack animation since release, Really this is the greatest change imaginable because it increases the skill cap of the game by a sizable margin and actually rewards good micro. It was never fair that rines/marauders/roaches can stutter step ur zealots to no tomorrow and the +1 range of stalker was always canceled out by the horrible attack animation.
if stalkers had 5 more damage it would also help? i dont understand your way of balancing the game. protoss just had a nice patch why dont we test this out and see if stalkers are too bad?
blink stalkers biggest fear was fungal and that was nerfed which means stalkers already had a buff this patch no?
On September 24 2011 07:35 Elean wrote: No more overkill with stalkers is probably too much of a buff.
People need to understand.
Stalkers still fire a PROJECTILE. NOTHING about the projectile has changed. The projectile just leaves the stalker about .1 seconds faster, Absolutely ZERO DPS change, once a fight starts you are looking at maybe one stalker getting off one more shot before it dies. In very rare cases it will make the difference, but treat it as Protoss can actually force static D against gasless.
On September 24 2011 05:38 coddan wrote: Of all Protoss units, Stalkers is hardly the one that needs a buff. With 1.4 I doubt they're going to need anything for a foreseeable future.
Stalkers have the worst DPS/cost ratio of any unit in the game, I think making the micro for them more important would do wonders for them, and the race as a whole. I mean marines have this and they are the exact opposite, highest DPS/cost ratio unit in the game.
say that say to a ... mothership ? or corruptor ?
corruptor dps > stalkers, now you realize how bad stalkers are.
On September 24 2011 07:36 VTPerfect wrote: i've been complaining about the stalker attack animation since release, Really this is the greatest change imaginable because it increases the skill cap of the game by a sizable margin and actually rewards good micro. It was never fair that rines/marauders/roaches can stutter step ur zealots to no tomorrow and the +1 range of stalker was always canceled out by the horrible attack animation.
It doesn't raise the skill cap in any way, it just makes kiting in early game stronger. Many Toss can already kite well. It does not make Stalker harder to use.
btw: Stalker can kite Zealots really easy aswell lol, there is your fairness. @izgodlee Stalkers are better in dps per cost :p
If the complaints are this might make it OP, why don't we change it a little?
Considering I haven't actually played this map as I'm at work and I'm working off the comments, it sounds like something that, if we reduced it slightly, somewhere inbetween what it originally was and how it is in this map, it might be decent.
Personally as a zerg player, if we did this I'd like some kind of addition to the roach aswell. While it's an alright unit, I'd like some changes too.
On September 24 2011 07:40 MorroW wrote: if stalkers had 5 more damage it would also help? i dont understand your way of balancing the game. protoss just had a nice patch why dont we test this out and see if stalkers are too bad?
blink stalkers biggest fear was fungal and that was nerfed which means stalkers already had a buff this patch no?
It takes the same number of FG's to kill a stalker pre and post patch.
On September 24 2011 07:35 Elean wrote: No more overkill with stalkers is probably too much of a buff.
People need to understand.
Stalkers still fire a PROJECTILE. NOTHING about the projectile has changed. The projectile just leaves the stalker about .1 seconds faster, Absolutely ZERO DPS change, once a fight starts you are looking at maybe one stalker getting off one more shot before it dies. In very rare cases it will make the difference, but treat it as Protoss can actually force static D against gasless.
No YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND. If the projectile leaves 0.1 faster, it kills the target 0.1 faster, which means that all the other stalkers firing during this 0.1 time window will attack another target instead of wasting their dps. This makes a huge DPS buff, on marines it represent almost 3 attacks upgrades (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=198860), on stalkers it would probably be equivalent to 4 or 5 attack upgrades.
People seriously need to stop seraching any weird thing to fix to buff protoss. Let the patch get played a bit. Perhaps what has be done is just what was needed.
On September 24 2011 05:38 coddan wrote: Of all Protoss units, Stalkers is hardly the one that needs a buff. With 1.4 I doubt they're going to need anything for a foreseeable future.
Stalkers need a buff haha i laught so hard . Skilled player can do miracle things whit stalkers + sentry , or even only blink stalkers , and you wanna buff them ? get real , or try play zerg..vs toss.
its the hydra that needs it's stutter step fixed, right now if you try to the hydra loses a ton of DPS because there is also a delay like the stalkers.
On September 24 2011 07:40 MorroW wrote: if stalkers had 5 more damage it would also help? i dont understand your way of balancing the game. protoss just had a nice patch why dont we test this out and see if stalkers are too bad?
blink stalkers biggest fear was fungal and that was nerfed which means stalkers already had a buff this patch no?
It takes the same number of FG's to kill a stalker pre and post patch.
Maybe with perfect fungals but that is almost impossible to full off. For those of us without perfect micro it will take 5 fungals now.
On September 24 2011 07:36 VTPerfect wrote: i've been complaining about the stalker attack animation since release, Really this is the greatest change imaginable because it increases the skill cap of the game by a sizable margin and actually rewards good micro. It was never fair that rines/marauders/roaches can stutter step ur zealots to no tomorrow and the +1 range of stalker was always canceled out by the horrible attack animation.
It doesn't raise the skill cap in any way, it just makes kiting in early game stronger. Many Toss can already kite well. It does not make Stalker harder to use.
btw: Stalker can kite Zealots really easy aswell lol, there is your fairness.
Actually it does by alot. Search for the custom map named Darglein's Micro Trainer and select Blink Stalker Challenge. You will then play Blink Stalkers vs increasing numbers of slow roaches. The game nicely also displays the Resource disparity in the armies. Kiwi was a professional Orc player in Wc3, thus he is capable of perfect stutter stepping as well as very high level blink + blinkdodge + focus firing. The amount of Raw skill and APM required as well as map space needed to make blink stalkers even with slow roaches is ridiculous while all the AI is doing is attack move. The other alternative is turning the stalker into a dragoon so we can all 1a roaches and dragoons together, but things like this are necessary to Sc2 to last as the premier esport.
I think that would basically turn TvP into Broodwar again. It'll mean early bio attacks will just be shut down completely, but early protoss attacks will be stronger.
On September 24 2011 07:59 Qikz wrote: I think that would basically turn TvP into Broodwar again. It'll mean early bio attacks will just be shut down completely, but early protoss attacks will be stronger.
There still is concussive shells. I think it might be an interesting changes if it turns out p is too vulnerable in early game; with the newest patch released it might take some time to let the dust settle but it's definitely an interesting change to improve p if needed.
stalkers are a bad unit. HORRIBLE dps HORRIBLE cost HORRIBLE scaling with upgrades (lol +1) and ontop of that they don't even respond to micro attempts very well. they're better than goons at least in one area i guess. it amazes me that people think they're actually any good at all.
this change would be pretty good. does anyone have a video showing it?
On September 24 2011 07:40 MorroW wrote: if stalkers had 5 more damage it would also help? i dont understand your way of balancing the game. protoss just had a nice patch why dont we test this out and see if stalkers are too bad?
blink stalkers biggest fear was fungal and that was nerfed which means stalkers already had a buff this patch no?
It takes the same number of FG's to kill a stalker pre and post patch.
Maybe with perfect fungals but that is almost impossible to full off. For those of us without perfect micro it will take 5 fungals now.
Woah there. Don't strain yourself landing a spell on units that can't move out of it.
edit: Why do no Zergs or Terrans ever say things in good faith. Christ. I hope you atleast appreciate the irony of your post.
On September 24 2011 07:30 Papulatus wrote: Protoss doesn't need more buffs.
Jesus, I don't know what you people are thinking. Toss has been going through hard times for ~5 weeks now. How long did zerg go through hard times? 5-6 months?
Learn to adapt and innovate like us zergs did, and stop looking for "balance" fixes.
Just because Protoss is no longer blatantly OP and you need to work for your wins doesnt mean your race is under powered.
No amount of innovation can out micro marines with stalkers.
Its as if you don't even take the existence of ZvP into consideration. Blink stalkers are already the best unit in that match up so why do they need a buff?
On September 24 2011 07:40 MorroW wrote: if stalkers had 5 more damage it would also help? i dont understand your way of balancing the game. protoss just had a nice patch why dont we test this out and see if stalkers are too bad?
blink stalkers biggest fear was fungal and that was nerfed which means stalkers already had a buff this patch no?
It takes the same number of FG's to kill a stalker pre and post patch.
Maybe with perfect fungals but that is almost impossible to full off. For those of us without perfect micro it will take 5 fungals now.
Woah there. Don't strain yourself landing a spell on units that can't move out of it.
On September 24 2011 07:40 MorroW wrote: if stalkers had 5 more damage it would also help? i dont understand your way of balancing the game. protoss just had a nice patch why dont we test this out and see if stalkers are too bad?
blink stalkers biggest fear was fungal and that was nerfed which means stalkers already had a buff this patch no?
It takes the same number of FG's to kill a stalker pre and post patch.
It does not unless you want to give them split seconds to blink away. Fungalling right the millisecond the first fungal ceases is sheer impossible.
Actually if they implemented it also for roaches I would gladly keep my stalkers as bad as they are now if it means keeping roaches as good as they are now.
Just imagine burrowed roaches that unburrow, fire instantly a monstrous shot of acid, then burrow again. With their regeneration, that would be so sick. Same DPS as unborrowed roaches, plus the regeneration between shots. Thank god they fire slowly for now :D (This point doesn't work for blink, you can blink between stalker shots without lowering your DPS, I don't think it's possible for roaches, and shield doesn't regenerate that quickly either).
On September 24 2011 07:40 MorroW wrote: if stalkers had 5 more damage it would also help? i dont understand your way of balancing the game. protoss just had a nice patch why dont we test this out and see if stalkers are too bad?
blink stalkers biggest fear was fungal and that was nerfed which means stalkers already had a buff this patch no?
It takes the same number of FG's to kill a stalker pre and post patch.
It does not unless you want to give them split seconds to blink away. Fungalling right the millisecond the first fungal ceases is sheer impossible.
I wasn't aware that not allowing protoss get get away from a situation where losing all your stalkers is going to occur because micro is impossible due to a rooting spell was out of the question?
On September 24 2011 05:38 coddan wrote: Of all Protoss units, Stalkers is hardly the one that needs a buff. With 1.4 I doubt they're going to need anything for a foreseeable future.
Stalkers have the worst DPS/cost ratio of any unit in the game, I think making the micro for them more important would do wonders for them, and the race as a whole. I mean marines have this and they are the exact opposite, highest DPS/cost ratio unit in the game.
Yeah but when you micro them they are useful. -.- Inane random first post.
This is definitely interesting. It was always wierd to me looking at Tempest's game on Bluestorm in BW and watching a dragoon kill 30 marines with lovely kiting and then watch sc2 where even with the best micro the stalker was almost guaranteed to recieve a modicum of damage.
edit: christ. It's interesting how good t and z's think stalkers are compared to Toss. Just play the map -.-
No, if you actually watched Light vs Tempest you would notice the dragoon took shitloads of damage, and even a little until after range finished. The reason his dragoon survived was because of the shield battery.
Anyways, I fully support this change. Stalkers just aren't very cost-efficient and are a shitty unit to make, and I feel when terrans start going mass hellions vs the zealot sentry high templar composition protoss favors lately protoss will be forced to use these rather unwieldy units. Alternatively blizz can increase the stalker upgrade to +1(+1) from +1(+0), which would also increase the potency of the unit as well.
On September 24 2011 07:40 MorroW wrote: if stalkers had 5 more damage it would also help? i dont understand your way of balancing the game. protoss just had a nice patch why dont we test this out and see if stalkers are too bad?
blink stalkers biggest fear was fungal and that was nerfed which means stalkers already had a buff this patch no?
It takes the same number of FG's to kill a stalker pre and post patch.
It does not unless you want to give them split seconds to blink away. Fungalling right the millisecond the first fungal ceases is sheer impossible.
I wasn't aware that not allowing protoss get get away from a situation where losing all your stalkers is going to occur because micro is impossible due to a rooting spell was out of the question?
Use your brain
Fungal does 40 damage, stalkers have 160 hp
Yet fungal does damage over time. Unless every fungal hits the max 4 second duration, meaning you don't over-lap any fungals at all, it won't kill a stalker. If you don't over-lap them, then the stalkers can blink away, since blink is instant.
some people seem to lack reading skills, what hes asking to be changed is the attack delay which is not the same as projectile speed. What makes the marine imbalanced is that projectile speed is instant.
He wants the rotation speed of the stalker and the attack delay(its the delay before the stalker finally attacks, and then the projectile comes out and you also have to wait for the projectile to hit the target), he wants the delay for the stalker to attack to be removed, not the cooldown or the projectile speed.
On September 24 2011 08:12 Glon wrote: why would blink all ins need to be any more powerful vs zerg?
Blink actually got nerfed. And it doesn't improve blink micro at all, just stutter step forwards and backwards. Do you see many protoss players that stutter step forward their stalkers into spines, roaches, and lings? Do you see many protoss players able to pull off a combination of blink + stutter step backwards micro?
So no, it wouldn't change anything to blink all ins, and they are slower now (no more one base versions at least, most likely slower 2 base versions, doesn't change the 3, 4, 5 or 6 base + colossus/mothership variations of the all in)
I have always felt that stalkers (read the name!) are supposed to be good at raiding and harassing: this little change suits the unit well, and makes stalker harassment more effective!
gauss > lasers > needle spit. Sorry always loved the gauss theory. I still can't understand this, we want units have the same stats. Blizzard really just should have taken terran, and just changed the models. So people are happy. Stalkers aren't prisoners put into an armor given a big bad gun. So they actually aim and don't have a weapon build to just shoot as many projectiles as possible, so it hits something knowing the state of mind the person using it has. The game has a lore and you can't go around that, just because you prefer a redneck shooting lasers every 0.05 seconds hitting maybe with every 20th shot, rather then a ninja, avoiding damage, wearing down the opponent, headshotting every time. My advice use the immortal, they are the paladins of the toss race.
I really don't want the stalker to become dragoon 2.0. It wouldn't be dark templarish on one side. And i really don't want easy mode stalker kiting. The challenge for marines is their 2 different aspds and that their aspd is so high that its actually not easy to do without loosing damage. And while stalkers don't care if a few aoes hit them and they just kite through, a giant marine blob will be dead, making kiting dangerous late game. (you know how marauders don't even care about a few storms when kiting and that you have to lay a whole field of storms to wear them down, and they aren't close to the hp stalkers have)
o the challenge with stalkers is to actually use the stalkers with shields to tank a bit of damage slowing the opponent down, to get more and more shots of over a shorter distance. Normally you see people just kite like they would do with marines, and the opponent just a clicks getting the weak stalkers thrown at them as tanks.
Wish I could try the map, but alas, not hosted in EU.
Since alot of Z/T claim that this would horrendously break the early game.. how about a change in the same direction but not so severe?
This guy is proposing completely removing the attack delay and extending the firing arc to 360 degrees, ok, you say its too much - What about halving the attack delay? Or halving the attack delay and increasing the firing arc by a little bit?
Instead of being completely against the change, why not tone it down by a bit and see how it works out?
On September 24 2011 08:18 FeyFey wrote: gauss > lasers > needle spit. Sorry always loved the gauss theory. I still can't understand this, we want units have the same stats. Blizzard really just should have taken terran, and just changed the models. So people are happy. Stalkers aren't prisoners put into an armor given a big bad gun. So they actually aim and don't have a weapon build to just shoot as many projectiles as possible, so it hits something knowing the state of mind the person using it has. The game has a lore and you can't go around that, just because you prefer a redneck shooting lasers every 0.05 seconds hitting maybe with every 20th shot, rather then a ninja, avoiding damage, wearing down the opponent, headshotting every time. My advice use the immortal, they are the paladins of the toss race.
I really don't want the stalker to become dragoon 2.0. It wouldn't be dark templarish on one side. And i really don't want easy mode stalker kiting. The challenge for marines is their 2 different aspds and that their aspd is so high that its actually not easy to do without loosing damage. And while stalkers don't care if a few aoes hit them and they just kite through, a giant marine blob will be dead, making kiting dangerous late game. (you know how marauders don't even care about a few storms when kiting and that you have to lay a whole field of storms to wear them down, and they aren't close to the hp stalkers have)
i'm sorry but game balance should not and cannot bend to accommodate the lore of the game
starcraft is a competitive game, not a role playing game
i think that this change feels good, looks interesting, but stalkers do feel a bit more powerful to me
whether stalkers need this or not is up for debate imo
On September 24 2011 08:20 Jebotres wrote: Wish I could try the map, but alas, not hosted in EU.
Since alot of Z/T claim that this would horrendously break the early game.. how about a change in the same direction but not so severe?
This guy is proposing completely removing the attack delay and extending the firing arc to 360 degrees, ok, you say its too much - What about halving the attack delay? Or halving the attack delay and increasing the firing arc by a little bit?
Instead of being completely against the change, why not tone it down by a bit and see how it works out?
It's really not as bad as it sounds. I lack the software to make a video. I asked the community if anyone could possibly make one, and i'll put it into the OP. It would be appreciated.
Threads like this and most ppl posting in here are the reason sc2 will need a long time till it is where sc:bw was. Instead of trying to make the best out of the circumstance and dont think much about balance every bronze player tries to change the circumstance i mean what a pussy attitude is this.
This way we wont see Legend players like bisu, savior etc arise who overcome any balance issue and show us what humans are capable of, no this way we´ll have a bunch of sissis wasting their brain power to create a usless thread like this .
Is this thread gonna help any player to be a better player ? - NO Do u rly think blizz didnt take anything mentioned in the OP into account ? - NO
Personally I as terran player wish they'd do that(well basically do it to all the ranged units), but at the same time, they'd need to rebalance the game. In general I think nerfing the mobility of the stalker and buffing it's straight up combat capability would be a positive change though.It sucks to much PvT due to mobility not mattering to much and it imo rules to much PvZ because mobility matters so much.
On September 24 2011 07:30 Papulatus wrote: Protoss doesn't need more buffs.
Jesus, I don't know what you people are thinking. Toss has been going through hard times for ~5 weeks now. How long did zerg go through hard times? 5-6 months?
Learn to adapt and innovate like us zergs did, and stop looking for "balance" fixes.
Just because Protoss is no longer blatantly OP and you need to work for your wins doesnt mean your race is under powered.
No amount of innovation can out micro marines with stalkers.
Its as if you don't even take the existence of ZvP into consideration. Blink stalkers are already the best unit in that match up so why do they need a buff?
Really?
1. Blink just got a timing nerf. 2. Ever play a PvZ? There's no way you can leave your base with blink stalkers when infestors are out, and they both appear at basically the same time.
On September 24 2011 08:24 common_cider wrote: If the stalkers get this buff, their movement speed must be nerfed and blink cooldown increased
The DPS isn't increased by this change, only the rate at with the stalker turns around and fires its projective. It just allows for higher skill caps in terms of harassment and micro abilities of a harass unit.
On September 24 2011 07:30 Papulatus wrote: Protoss doesn't need more buffs.
Jesus, I don't know what you people are thinking. Toss has been going through hard times for ~5 weeks now. How long did zerg go through hard times? 5-6 months?
Learn to adapt and innovate like us zergs did, and stop looking for "balance" fixes.
Just because Protoss is no longer blatantly OP and you need to work for your wins doesnt mean your race is under powered.
No amount of innovation can out micro marines with stalkers.
Its as if you don't even take the existence of ZvP into consideration. Blink stalkers are already the best unit in that match up so why do they need a buff?
Really?
1. Blink just got a timing nerf. 2. Ever play a PvZ? There's no way you can leave your base with blink stalkers when infestors are out, and they both appear at basically the same time.
Yes, but the number of infestors zerg can now get is much lower than before because of the NP change. Blink timing shouldnt really be a concern, unless you are doing some sort of all in.
Great investigative work This seems like a good way to "buff" stalkers without actually buffing them. They'll be more useful in the hands of a skillful player to micro and it would give stalkers better utility in the early game without breaking them in the late game.
On September 24 2011 08:24 common_cider wrote: If the stalkers get this buff, their movement speed must be nerfed and blink cooldown increased
The DPS isn't increased by this change, only the rate at with the stalker turns around and fires its projective. It just allows for higher skill caps in terms of harassment and micro abilities of a harass unit.
Ofcourse something would need to be changed. You are basically proposing protoss dominance for the first few minutes if t/z dare go econ build order. I don't think blink would be an issue(since this would really only effect early game, or rather mid/lategame both races can deal with it), but some stat of the unit would need to suffer. I agree though, it'd improve the harass potential, though concerning the skill cap, early game it'd most certainly lower the skill cap, since you'd obviously micro a lot... well a lot of people are content with calling it 'smoother', but it's just a pretty word for 'making it easier'. Lategame skill cap would be higher however.
I think this would make stalkers OP in PvZ in the extremely early stages, i.e. before zergling speed, this would mean that the stalker would be
* faster * longer range * can attack while moving with extremely low decrease in dps aka: they can attack while moving.
in other words completely unkillable with zerglings or workers or queens (which is everything you have as zerg in that stage.)
this change could just as well be identical to: - given attention, stalkers can no longer be killed in the first 5 minutes of PvZ.
this seems too powerful in my eyes and would force the zerg to either put down a spine crawler or accept the loss of a few workers in the beginning of the game. seems unfair to me.
On September 24 2011 08:36 Roblin wrote: I think this would make stalkers OP in PvZ in the extremely early stages, i.e. before zergling speed, this would mean that the stalker would be
* faster * longer range * can attack while moving with extremely low decrease in dps aka: they can attack while moving.
in other words completely unkillable with zerglings or workers or queens (which is everything you have as zerg in that stage.)
this change could just as well be identical to: - given attention, stalkers can no longer be killed in the first 5 minutes of PvZ.
this seems too powerful in my eyes and would force the zerg to either put down a spine crawler or accept the loss of a few workers in the beginning of the game. seems unfair to me.
Im sorry, but I don't think you even attempted to try out the custom game. They aren't "unkillable with zerglings or workers or queens" or cant "attack while moving with extremely low decrease in dps aka: they can attack while moving."
On September 24 2011 08:24 common_cider wrote: If the stalkers get this buff, their movement speed must be nerfed and blink cooldown increased
The DPS isn't increased by this change, only the rate at with the stalker turns around and fires its projective. It just allows for higher skill caps in terms of harassment and micro abilities of a harass unit.
And that is not a buff to the damage a Stalker dishes out how? If it does not need to turn around it does more damage whenever it had to before, don't you think?
€ I don't say that the changes are bad, I just disagree with all the whiny Toss here that think that Stalker are bad units. Just ask yourself one question: would you change them with Hydras? No? Thought so.
We really need a video of this, too many peoplke are commenting without trying. But oh well, to be fair the OP described it as if it was the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Overall its just something that makes Stalker Micro easier. Bad players will still take damage, good players will have much more breathing room. I still feel discussing changes that we want on the game is useless. I doubt Blizzard reads this threads looking for suggestions.
On September 24 2011 08:14 Dhalphir wrote: Its hilarious how many of you fucking idiots are making sweeping comments without trying out the custom map with the stalker change live.
It makes no difference in the power of the unit. It simply makes it more fun to control.
How can you call people fucking idiots and then say something that is blatantly wrong?
It doesn't simply make them more "fun" to control, it makes it a lot easier for stalkers to kite units when you can keep moving much faster. Obviously since the stalker is already faster and has more range than units like roaches and marines, this is a very significant buff.
On September 24 2011 08:36 Roblin wrote: I think this would make stalkers OP in PvZ in the extremely early stages, i.e. before zergling speed, this would mean that the stalker would be
* faster * longer range * can attack while moving with extremely low decrease in dps aka: they can attack while moving.
in other words completely unkillable with zerglings or workers or queens (which is everything you have as zerg in that stage.)
this change could just as well be identical to: - given attention, stalkers can no longer be killed in the first 5 minutes of PvZ.
this seems too powerful in my eyes and would force the zerg to either put down a spine crawler or accept the loss of a few workers in the beginning of the game. seems unfair to me.
... Needing to build a single spine for defense is unfair? It's one drone, a minor mineral investment, and you can move it elsewhere as the game goes on should it survive. With bunkers being salvageable and crawlers being able to reposition, I don't see anything wrong with giving toss a way to put some early pressure on without it being an all-in.
On September 24 2011 08:24 common_cider wrote: If the stalkers get this buff, their movement speed must be nerfed and blink cooldown increased
The DPS isn't increased by this change, only the rate at with the stalker turns around and fires its projective. It just allows for higher skill caps in terms of harassment and micro abilities of a harass unit.
And that is not a buff to the damage a Stalker dishes out how? If it does not need to turn around it does more damage whenever it had to before, don't you think?
Technically, the DPS doesn't actually change. If you told it to attack something for 30 seconds, it would still do the same amount of damage if it had that slight delay because it's still firing shots at the same rate. The only difference would be the start up time of the first attack.
i always thought their attack animation was weird and needed a change. the proposition of that guy looks solid to me. hope blizzard is going to do sometihng of that sort in the forseeable future
On September 24 2011 05:38 coddan wrote: Of all Protoss units, Stalkers is hardly the one that needs a buff. With 1.4 I doubt they're going to need anything for a foreseeable future.
Yeah, why buff the unit with the worst DPS/cost ratio in the entire game?
Because DPS/Cost Ratio don't tell everything about the unit?
Stalkers have a huge mobility advantage in early game, with Blink they even have a higher mobility. Not everything is about A moving shit into each other.
As I said Stalkers may not be the BEST UNIT OMG AWESOME, but they are pretty solid as a unit.
They lose to any composition of speed roaches, speedlings, marines or marauders every single time cost inefficiently.
I don't think you should fight with only stalkers mate.
On September 24 2011 08:14 Dhalphir wrote: Its hilarious how many of you fucking idiots are making sweeping comments without trying out the custom map with the stalker change live.
It makes no difference in the power of the unit. It simply makes it more fun to control.
How can you call people fucking idiots and then say something that is blatantly wrong?
It doesn't simply make them more "fun" to control, it makes it a lot easier for stalkers to kite units when you can keep moving much faster. Obviously since the stalker is already faster and has more range than units like roaches and marines, this is a very significant buff.
I agree in that this indeed makes Stalkers better.To say it makes them just more ¨fun¨ is just.. well stupid.
But I really think you are overestimating how much of a change is this. But oh well we won´t see many Pros posting this, and they are the only ones who can show how significant this change would be. Gosh I need to stop discussing this hypothetical changes XD
On September 24 2011 05:42 ander wrote: I'd be very interested to see a video on this. I don't know if this would be a good idea, and i don't know how it would fit in the current state of sc2, but it would still be very interesting to see. If done correctly this should not end up being a buff, but a lateral tweak.
Theres a custom game called Stutter Stalkers.
Play it, and you'll understand the change completely.
some of us are currently unable to get on sc2 to check the map, a video would be greatly appreciated
On September 24 2011 08:36 Roblin wrote: I think this would make stalkers OP in PvZ in the extremely early stages, i.e. before zergling speed, this would mean that the stalker would be
* faster * longer range * can attack while moving with extremely low decrease in dps aka: they can attack while moving.
in other words completely unkillable with zerglings or workers or queens (which is everything you have as zerg in that stage.)
this change could just as well be identical to: - given attention, stalkers can no longer be killed in the first 5 minutes of PvZ.
this seems too powerful in my eyes and would force the zerg to either put down a spine crawler or accept the loss of a few workers in the beginning of the game. seems unfair to me.
It's more like ~60 sc2 seconds if toss is cutting corners. Currently you need a spine vs reactor hellions why not the same for Stalkers?
I think the big change is still going to be in PvZ 2 base blink all in, rally Stalkers and basically any 1 base T build without stim.
This will just make stalkers OP early game. Stalkers can just easily poke on almost every unit early game and just take very minimal damage and escape.
On September 24 2011 08:46 Stanlot wrote: Technically, the DPS doesn't actually change. If you told it to attack something for 30 seconds, it would still do the same amount of damage if it had that slight delay because it's still firing shots at the same rate. The only difference would be the start up time of the first attack.
DPS is not the only metric that says how much damage you actually deal, that was my point.
We are not talking about a Stalker firing at a Hatchery, nothing would change there, this change was implemented for easier micro and there can be many occasions where you would get one shot more off with this change while kiting or where you wouldn't even had shot at all before this change(changed firing arc). More shots=more damage, even with equal dps.
And you get less damage while kiting, so people can't tell me that this change is no buff but only makes handling Stalkers more fun.
EPT
and the game seems to be fine in that regard right now.
