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On September 24 2011 08:05 Papulatus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 07:33 NinetySix_ wrote:On September 24 2011 07:30 Papulatus wrote:
Protoss doesn't need more buffs.
Jesus, I don't know what you people are thinking. Toss has been going through hard times for ~5 weeks now. How long did zerg go through hard times? 5-6 months?
Learn to adapt and innovate like us zergs did, and stop looking for "balance" fixes.
Just because Protoss is no longer blatantly OP and you need to work for your wins doesnt mean your race is under powered. No amount of innovation can out micro marines with stalkers. Its as if you don't even take the existence of ZvP into consideration. Blink stalkers are already the best unit in that match up so why do they need a buff?
Really?
1. Blink just got a timing nerf.
2. Ever play a PvZ? There's no way you can leave your base with blink stalkers when infestors are out, and they both appear at basically the same time.
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On September 24 2011 08:24 common_cider wrote:
If the stalkers get this buff, their movement speed must be nerfed and blink cooldown increased
The DPS isn't increased by this change, only the rate at with the stalker turns around and fires its projective. It just allows for higher skill caps in terms of harassment and micro abilities of a harass unit.
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On September 24 2011 08:25 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 08:05 Papulatus wrote:On September 24 2011 07:33 NinetySix_ wrote:On September 24 2011 07:30 Papulatus wrote:
Protoss doesn't need more buffs.
Jesus, I don't know what you people are thinking. Toss has been going through hard times for ~5 weeks now. How long did zerg go through hard times? 5-6 months?
Learn to adapt and innovate like us zergs did, and stop looking for "balance" fixes.
Just because Protoss is no longer blatantly OP and you need to work for your wins doesnt mean your race is under powered. No amount of innovation can out micro marines with stalkers. Its as if you don't even take the existence of ZvP into consideration. Blink stalkers are already the best unit in that match up so why do they need a buff? Really? 1. Blink just got a timing nerf. 2. Ever play a PvZ? There's no way you can leave your base with blink stalkers when infestors are out, and they both appear at basically the same time.
Yes, but the number of infestors zerg can now get is much lower than before because of the NP change. Blink timing shouldnt really be a concern, unless you are doing some sort of all in.
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Great investigative work
This seems like a good way to "buff" stalkers without actually buffing them. They'll be more useful in the hands of a skillful player to micro and it would give stalkers better utility in the early game without breaking them in the late game.
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On September 24 2011 08:26 axellerate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 08:24 common_cider wrote:
If the stalkers get this buff, their movement speed must be nerfed and blink cooldown increased The DPS isn't increased by this change, only the rate at with the stalker turns around and fires its projective. It just allows for higher skill caps in terms of harassment and micro abilities of a harass unit.
Ofcourse something would need to be changed. You are basically proposing protoss dominance for the first few minutes if t/z dare go econ build order. I don't think blink would be an issue(since this would really only effect early game, or rather mid/lategame both races can deal with it), but some stat of the unit would need to suffer.
I agree though, it'd improve the harass potential, though concerning the skill cap, early game it'd most certainly lower the skill cap, since you'd obviously micro a lot... well a lot of people are content with calling it 'smoother', but it's just a pretty word for 'making it easier'. Lategame skill cap would be higher however.
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I think this would make stalkers OP in PvZ in the extremely early stages, i.e. before zergling speed, this would mean that the stalker would be
* faster
* longer range
* can attack while moving with extremely low decrease in dps aka: they can attack while moving.
in other words completely unkillable with zerglings or workers or queens (which is everything you have as zerg in that stage.)
this change could just as well be identical to:
- given attention, stalkers can no longer be killed in the first 5 minutes of PvZ.
this seems too powerful in my eyes and would force the zerg to either put down a spine crawler or accept the loss of a few workers in the beginning of the game. seems unfair to me.
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On September 24 2011 08:36 Roblin wrote:
I think this would make stalkers OP in PvZ in the extremely early stages, i.e. before zergling speed, this would mean that the stalker would be
* faster
* longer range
* can attack while moving with extremely low decrease in dps aka: they can attack while moving.
in other words completely unkillable with zerglings or workers or queens (which is everything you have as zerg in that stage.)
this change could just as well be identical to:
- given attention, stalkers can no longer be killed in the first 5 minutes of PvZ.
this seems too powerful in my eyes and would force the zerg to either put down a spine crawler or accept the loss of a few workers in the beginning of the game. seems unfair to me.
Im sorry, but I don't think you even attempted to try out the custom game. They aren't "unkillable with zerglings or workers or queens" or cant "attack while moving with extremely low decrease in dps aka: they can attack while moving."
They aren't marines! 
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On September 24 2011 08:26 axellerate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 08:24 common_cider wrote:
If the stalkers get this buff, their movement speed must be nerfed and blink cooldown increased The DPS isn't increased by this change, only the rate at with the stalker turns around and fires its projective. It just allows for higher skill caps in terms of harassment and micro abilities of a harass unit.
And that is not a buff to the damage a Stalker dishes out how? If it does not need to turn around it does more damage whenever it had to before, don't you think?
€
I don't say that the changes are bad, I just disagree with all the whiny Toss here that think that Stalker are bad units. Just ask yourself one question: would you change them with Hydras? No? Thought so.
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We really need a video of this, too many peoplke are commenting without trying.
But oh well, to be fair the OP described it as if it was the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Overall its just something that makes Stalker Micro easier. Bad players will still take damage, good players will have much more breathing room. I still feel discussing changes that we want on the game is useless. I doubt Blizzard reads this threads looking for suggestions.
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I'd love to see a video of this
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On September 24 2011 08:14 Dhalphir wrote:
Its hilarious how many of you fucking idiots are making sweeping comments without trying out the custom map with the stalker change live.
It makes no difference in the power of the unit. It simply makes it more fun to control.
How can you call people fucking idiots and then say something that is blatantly wrong?
It doesn't simply make them more "fun" to control, it makes it a lot easier for stalkers to kite units when you can keep moving much faster. Obviously since the stalker is already faster and has more range than units like roaches and marines, this is a very significant buff.
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On September 24 2011 08:36 Roblin wrote:
I think this would make stalkers OP in PvZ in the extremely early stages, i.e. before zergling speed, this would mean that the stalker would be
* faster
* longer range
* can attack while moving with extremely low decrease in dps aka: they can attack while moving.
in other words completely unkillable with zerglings or workers or queens (which is everything you have as zerg in that stage.)
this change could just as well be identical to:
- given attention, stalkers can no longer be killed in the first 5 minutes of PvZ.
this seems too powerful in my eyes and would force the zerg to either put down a spine crawler or accept the loss of a few workers in the beginning of the game. seems unfair to me.
... Needing to build a single spine for defense is unfair? It's one drone, a minor mineral investment, and you can move it elsewhere as the game goes on should it survive. With bunkers being salvageable and crawlers being able to reposition, I don't see anything wrong with giving toss a way to put some early pressure on without it being an all-in.
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On September 24 2011 08:39 clusen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 08:26 axellerate wrote:On September 24 2011 08:24 common_cider wrote:
If the stalkers get this buff, their movement speed must be nerfed and blink cooldown increased The DPS isn't increased by this change, only the rate at with the stalker turns around and fires its projective. It just allows for higher skill caps in terms of harassment and micro abilities of a harass unit. And that is not a buff to the damage a Stalker dishes out how? If it does not need to turn around it does more damage whenever it had to before, don't you think?
Technically, the DPS doesn't actually change. If you told it to attack something for 30 seconds, it would still do the same amount of damage if it had that slight delay because it's still firing shots at the same rate. The only difference would be the start up time of the first attack.
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i always thought their attack animation was weird and needed a change. the proposition of that guy looks solid to me. hope blizzard is going to do sometihng of that sort in the forseeable future
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On September 24 2011 06:00 axellerate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 05:58 windsupernova wrote:On September 24 2011 05:54 Whitewing wrote:On September 24 2011 05:38 coddan wrote:
Of all Protoss units, Stalkers is hardly the one that needs a buff. With 1.4 I doubt they're going to need anything for a foreseeable future. Yeah, why buff the unit with the worst DPS/cost ratio in the entire game? Because DPS/Cost Ratio don't tell everything about the unit? Stalkers have a huge mobility advantage in early game, with Blink they even have a higher mobility. Not everything is about A moving shit into each other. As I said Stalkers may not be the BEST UNIT OMG AWESOME, but they are pretty solid as a unit. They lose to any composition of speed roaches, speedlings, marines or marauders every single time cost inefficiently.
I don't think you should fight with only stalkers mate.
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On September 24 2011 08:44 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 08:14 Dhalphir wrote:
Its hilarious how many of you fucking idiots are making sweeping comments without trying out the custom map with the stalker change live.
It makes no difference in the power of the unit. It simply makes it more fun to control. How can you call people fucking idiots and then say something that is blatantly wrong? It doesn't simply make them more "fun" to control, it makes it a lot easier for stalkers to kite units when you can keep moving much faster. Obviously since the stalker is already faster and has more range than units like roaches and marines, this is a very significant buff.
I agree in that this indeed makes Stalkers better.To say it makes them just more ¨fun¨ is just.. well stupid.
But I really think you are overestimating how much of a change is this. But oh well we won´t see many Pros posting this, and they are the only ones who can show how significant this change would be. Gosh I need to stop discussing this hypothetical changes XD
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On September 24 2011 05:43 axellerate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 05:42 ander wrote:
I'd be very interested to see a video on this. I don't know if this would be a good idea, and i don't know how it would fit in the current state of sc2, but it would still be very interesting to see. If done correctly this should not end up being a buff, but a lateral tweak. Theres a custom game called Stutter Stalkers. Play it, and you'll understand the change completely.
some of us are currently unable to get on sc2 to check the map, a video would be greatly appreciated
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On September 24 2011 08:36 Roblin wrote:
I think this would make stalkers OP in PvZ in the extremely early stages, i.e. before zergling speed, this would mean that the stalker would be
* faster
* longer range
* can attack while moving with extremely low decrease in dps aka: they can attack while moving.
in other words completely unkillable with zerglings or workers or queens (which is everything you have as zerg in that stage.)
this change could just as well be identical to:
- given attention, stalkers can no longer be killed in the first 5 minutes of PvZ.
this seems too powerful in my eyes and would force the zerg to either put down a spine crawler or accept the loss of a few workers in the beginning of the game. seems unfair to me.
It's more like ~60 sc2 seconds if toss is cutting corners. Currently you need a spine vs reactor hellions why not the same for Stalkers?
I think the big change is still going to be in PvZ 2 base blink all in, rally Stalkers and basically any 1 base T build without stim.
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This will just make stalkers OP early game. Stalkers can just easily poke on almost every unit early game and just take very minimal damage and escape.
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On September 24 2011 08:46 Stanlot wrote:
Technically, the DPS doesn't actually change. If you told it to attack something for 30 seconds, it would still do the same amount of damage if it had that slight delay because it's still firing shots at the same rate. The only difference would be the start up time of the first attack.
DPS is not the only metric that says how much damage you actually deal, that was my point.
We are not talking about a Stalker firing at a Hatchery, nothing would change there, this change was implemented for easier micro and there can be many occasions where you would get one shot more off with this change while kiting or where you wouldn't even had shot at all before this change(changed firing arc). More shots=more damage, even with equal dps.
And you get less damage while kiting, so people can't tell me that this change is no buff but only makes handling Stalkers more fun.
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EPT
