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On September 24 2011 07:06 Buddhist wrote:
I played the map, and this change is actually very minor. You still have to stop your stalkers for a considerable amount of time to allow them to fire, even if they technically have 0 attack delay. Same for sentries. If you move them too quickly, even if you see the bubbles on the target, you will cancel the damage from going through.
If blizzard had implemented this change, I think no one would have noticed the differences except at maybe high level PvP, and people who are particularly sensitive to annoying little delays.
I´ll have to disagree, its pretty noticeable. Kiting marines feels much more forgivable, but yeah its quite nice and it doesn´t feel that bad?
but as I have said in the hands of someone with awesome Micro it might become much more stronger.
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On September 24 2011 07:06 PHILtheTANK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 07:02 eloist wrote:On September 24 2011 06:34 Iamyournoob wrote:
I really believe that anything that rewards micro or skill is a great addition to SC2.
Microable units actually that you can get a lot out of, if you are good enough, is a mean to overcome balance issues. Terran units have great micro potential, so that good terrans can make them even more powerful than they already are.
Giving the stalker the possibility to profit more from skill is a good way to race the skill ceiling of SC2 which it badly needs.
Some say it might force speedling openers every game from zerg or kill certain terran openers... Why is this a bad thing???
When I watch BW, the basic builds in any match up are pretty much the same and still BW is the best competitive RTS ever created. It is the execution and the nuances that made BW what it is now - not the fact that you had a game of dice rolling at the start of each game which build players would go. SC2 does not need a raised skill ceiling for micro. Maybe when protoss players actually start to send zealots in first, we can talk. Removing the attack delay does not increase the micro skill ceiling for stalkers at all. Just like how the delay makes using hellions against lings non-trivial. Good protoss players do send their zealots in first, stop with this trash.
It's an example, no need to get hostile. The actual point in my post is that an attack delay does not necessarily mean that a unit is easier to use. On the contrary actually.
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On September 24 2011 07:11 DNA61289 wrote:
I tested it and unless you have perfect micro a roach can still get a hit on a stalker. People are completely overreacting to a small change like this.
Yep. In moderate numbers, like 8 vs 8, it's almost impossible to avoid hits against Roaches even with the change.
Play the map before saying it'd be OP. Chances are, you won't even be able to tell there's a difference.
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On September 24 2011 05:35 axellerate wrote:- I'm seeing a lot of, well the stalker would just own zerg early game and it would be too easy. Folks, stalkers can kite slow roaches or slow lings anyways. Its very easy  and the game seems to be fine in that regard right now.
LOL nice logic.
"Stalkers can easily kite stuff as it is right now, it won't change anything by making them easier to stutter step micro with."
It's like saying that marines w/o Stim are the same as with Stim. "They are already easy to stutter step. Making it easier to do it won't change anything". o_o
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OMG i was so skeptic when i first read this, but this improvement to the stalkers would help SO MUCH!
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"Can bring protoss back into the game" - You got a fucking patch a few days ago, can you at least wait for that to settle in before demanding more buffs?
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I approve... It simply makes for a slightly more thoughtful build order from the other two races, and make gasless builds slightly more dangerous since Protoss is the only race that can't live long without gas but the other two can go for minutes on end without it.
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On September 24 2011 07:16 Hoon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 05:35 axellerate wrote:- I'm seeing a lot of, well the stalker would just own zerg early game and it would be too easy. Folks, stalkers can kite slow roaches or slow lings anyways. Its very easy and the game seems to be fine in that regard right now. LOL nice logic. "Stalkers can easily kite stuff as it is right now, it won't change anything by making them easier to stutter step micro with." It's like saying that marines w/o Stim are the same as with Stim. "They are already easy to stutter step. Making it easier to do it won't change anything". o_o
Agreed. This will make it nearly impossible to hold off early game stalker aggression without heavy losses (until speed finishes).
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On September 24 2011 07:16 eloist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 07:06 PHILtheTANK wrote:On September 24 2011 07:02 eloist wrote:On September 24 2011 06:34 Iamyournoob wrote:
I really believe that anything that rewards micro or skill is a great addition to SC2.
Microable units actually that you can get a lot out of, if you are good enough, is a mean to overcome balance issues. Terran units have great micro potential, so that good terrans can make them even more powerful than they already are.
Giving the stalker the possibility to profit more from skill is a good way to race the skill ceiling of SC2 which it badly needs.
Some say it might force speedling openers every game from zerg or kill certain terran openers... Why is this a bad thing???
When I watch BW, the basic builds in any match up are pretty much the same and still BW is the best competitive RTS ever created. It is the execution and the nuances that made BW what it is now - not the fact that you had a game of dice rolling at the start of each game which build players would go. SC2 does not need a raised skill ceiling for micro. Maybe when protoss players actually start to send zealots in first, we can talk. Removing the attack delay does not increase the micro skill ceiling for stalkers at all. Just like how the delay makes using hellions against lings non-trivial. Good protoss players do send their zealots in first, stop with this trash. It's an example, no need to get hostile. The actual point in my post is that an attack delay does not necessarily mean that a unit is easier to use. On the contrary actually.
It reallyy wouldn't make them harder or easier to use...... it would just make them better. Its a given that when you're stalker kiting you'll take hits, with this change you'd takke a lot less.
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On September 24 2011 07:16 Hoon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 05:35 axellerate wrote:- I'm seeing a lot of, well the stalker would just own zerg early game and it would be too easy. Folks, stalkers can kite slow roaches or slow lings anyways. Its very easy and the game seems to be fine in that regard right now. LOL nice logic. "Stalkers can easily kite stuff as it is right now, it won't change anything by making them easier to stutter step micro with." It's like saying that marines w/o Stim are the same as with Stim. "They are already easy to stutter step. Making it easier to do it won't change anything". o_o
Except stim increases dps by 50%, and this change increases dps by 0%.
Play the map and try it yourself, you won't even see a difference.
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i like the idea
maybe with the toss expo you guys get something like that
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Petition to Blizzard time.
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On September 24 2011 07:25 IKenshinI wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 07:16 Hoon wrote:On September 24 2011 05:35 axellerate wrote:- I'm seeing a lot of, well the stalker would just own zerg early game and it would be too easy. Folks, stalkers can kite slow roaches or slow lings anyways. Its very easy and the game seems to be fine in that regard right now. LOL nice logic. "Stalkers can easily kite stuff as it is right now, it won't change anything by making them easier to stutter step micro with." It's like saying that marines w/o Stim are the same as with Stim. "They are already easy to stutter step. Making it easier to do it won't change anything". o_o Agreed. This will make it nearly impossible to hold off early game stalker aggression without heavy losses (until speed finishes).
It makes spines more crucial of a decision, and it makes speed for lings a more crucial decision. Even without speed 1 spine is enough to deter any stalker aggression; you can't really approach the hatch even if they don't have speed but just more lings and the queen is there.
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On September 24 2011 07:27 Buddhist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 07:16 Hoon wrote:On September 24 2011 05:35 axellerate wrote:- I'm seeing a lot of, well the stalker would just own zerg early game and it would be too easy. Folks, stalkers can kite slow roaches or slow lings anyways. Its very easy and the game seems to be fine in that regard right now. LOL nice logic. "Stalkers can easily kite stuff as it is right now, it won't change anything by making them easier to stutter step micro with." It's like saying that marines w/o Stim are the same as with Stim. "They are already easy to stutter step. Making it easier to do it won't change anything". o_o Except stim increases dps by 50%, and this change increases dps by 0%. Play the map and try it yourself, you won't even see a difference.
Right, to clarify the damage measured isn't increased, just the start of when damage is measured occurs ever so slightly ahead of before.
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so how does this change affect stalker vs roach? its all well and good talking about pvt but stalkers with upgrades are already a pain for zerg to deal with in mass, if they were super easy to micro its gonna have an affect.
im all for changes that make micro more important but people dont seem to be talking about how it affects the whole game
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Protoss doesn't need more buffs.
Jesus, I don't know what you people are thinking. Toss has been going through hard times for ~5 weeks now. How long did zerg go through hard times? 5-6 months?
Learn to adapt and innovate like us zergs did, and stop looking for "balance" fixes.
Just because Protoss is no longer blatantly OP and you need to work for your wins doesnt mean your race is under powered.
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On September 24 2011 07:30 Papulatus wrote:
Protoss doesn't need more buffs.
Jesus, I don't know what you people are thinking. Toss has been going through hard times for ~5 weeks now. How long did zerg go through hard times? 5-6 months?
Learn to adapt and innovate like us zergs did, and stop looking for "balance" fixes.
Just because Protoss is no longer blatantly OP and you need to work for your wins doesnt mean your race is under powered.
No amount of innovation can out micro marines with stalkers.
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No more overkill with stalkers is probably too much of a buff.
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On September 24 2011 07:29 Holykitty wrote:
so how does this change affect stalker vs roach? its all well and good talking about pvt but stalkers with upgrades are already a pain for zerg to deal with in mass, if they were super easy to micro its gonna have an affect.
im all for changes that make micro more important but people dont seem to be talking about how it affects the whole game
This change only changes early game interactions. So Mass Blink Stalkers will still be the same or similar enough. I might try it later though
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i've been complaining about the stalker attack animation since release, Really this is the greatest change imaginable because it increases the skill cap of the game by a sizable margin and actually rewards good micro. It was never fair that rines/marauders/roaches can stutter step ur zealots to no tomorrow and the +1 range of stalker was always canceled out by the horrible attack animation.
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EPT
