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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
+ Show Spoiler +On September 10 2011 16:12 Roblin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 15:42 GoatSwarm wrote:So they decided to make Neural not affect massive units. So what? Fellow Zergs, I know this is obviously going to make some of our fights a lot harder, but is that so bad? The reason I play this game right now is to improve, and I think that the harder it gets the better I get in the end. That's why I don't whine about balance. It's unecessary and actually sort of annoying. Take it with some strength and move on to try and beat your opponent without that particular spell, at least that's what I'm going to do.  agreed, I almost never used neural anyway. my thoughts on zerg strength as of 1.4: fungal damage - meh, 16% of the funal dps goes away, which means about 2 % of the total dps goes away, my lings are the real unit-murderers anyway, the fungals killing stuff too was mainly a bonus. NP change - almost never used it anyway, in ZvP there are a few possible situations: the attack from protoss comes with: no colossi: pure ling can handle it. 1-2 colossi: I should have about 3 infestors, mass ling + those can handle it 6-8 colossi: I should be maxed out on infestor ling with a massive economy advantage at this time, those + reinforcements should handle it. 10+ colossi: I should have my maxed upgraded ultras, lings and infestors out, assuming I can fungal them to make them not flee, I should win with my ultras see? no NP. in ZvT I only used it when I saw him getting mass thor, I guess I will have to get creative and solve the thor-issue some other way. overseer cost and contaminate change: interesting, mathematicly speaking the contaminate was buffed, the energy cost was increased, but not doubled, so you can still get more contaminate for the same cost, I will also be able to get a few overseers to scout with without it being a huge investment. ultra build time: doesn't change extremely much, but does change some, I like ultras so perhaps a ultra-rush build?. overall: I would say zerg is equally powerful before and after this patch, it is slightly less cost-efficient, but also slightly easier to acquire, since NP is in effect gone, no need to spend money on it right? and the above (non-costefficient but easy to get = OVERWHELM WITH MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF UNITS!) is what embodies zerg right?
If mass Thor the Ultra build time change could make for Ultras v. Thors.
Also to reply to your Colosssi number stuff, I personally prefer a ton of Broods with some Festor support if massive amounts of Colossi.
And yes, the fungal nerf is quite insignificant as well as Zerg being nearly as equally powerful when the patch hits. Perhaps there is a difference on other servers, but for me.. I'll just go with it. ^^
I too find the Overseer change very interesting, though admittedly I have not been using them as much as I should in any matchup and I probably will try to implement them in my play a lot more after the patch, same with the Ultralisk. I seriously hated the buildtime, but love the unit.
On a sidenote, recently I've been finding myself to stop almost any Terran army with relative ease. (I'm currently at like 750point Master EU.. Slack slack and nothing but slack on my part) This by making a third macro hatch on 2base before taking a third, and massing up on Roach-Ling with just 10 or so Mutas.
I don't even use infestors in that matchup anymore unless it somehow goes to MASS Marine. Hell, I don't even need banelings. And with the blueflame nerf I guess it'll be even easier since I can get more lings than I normally would. Is this just me or something you've experienced as well?
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On September 10 2011 12:54 hashaki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 12:45 emc wrote:
might as well give frenzy back to the infestor that we had in the beta. Remove NP and give us frenzy so we can make our ultras attack faster. Seems like NP is pointless now why even bother with it?
It should be a hive tech research at the very least or even if the infestor was a hive unit but we had something at T2 to compensate (lurkers!). Seriously, cry much? To call an ability useless because you can't use it vs the units it -has been- most used against up untill now is just useless crying. Tanks? Immortals? Templars? Ghosts? You can still NP the shit out of these units and they can do some serious damage. Fact of the matter is that Infestor has been this crazy counter-to-all-units-and-compositions lately and that's just wrong and bad design. Now with a slight nerf of FG and NP it might start balancing out, but I still see Infestors being the bulk of alot of Zerg play even after these nerfs simply becasue it'll still be a strong unit with it's spells. Personally I'd rather see FG do 50% slow (while it still disabled abilities like blink etc) instead of root rather than a damage-reduction as is suggested in this patch. It's been said before, but the "problem" (if there is one) with FG is that is roots AND does quite sick damage. Imagine the whine if Storm had 50% less damage but stunned units under it. Oh my god the crying we'd hear from both Terrans and Zergs and Protoss would just be "pfft, EMP or NP them" (like alot of zergs are saying to P on how to deal with Infestors right now)
You know why infestors have to counter everything? Because frankly, all of the other zerg units suck. Try playing zerg. Really. You will see what I mean. You're absolutely right that it's bad design, but it has to be this way because the whole race is designed badly.
I play random. and here is my perspective. Rax nerf is annoying, but I can see it being a little too strong sometiems in 2 rax openers. BFH is over nerfed. They were too strong as is, but 5 makes the upgrade worthless. 7 might have been a better compromise. Seeker missle buff.... I guess you could use it for cute things. I saw minigun shoot 2 of them at a banshee and run that into the other teams army the other day. Still not sure it's really useful since it has such a terrible cast range.
Immortals buff is v. nice. I hate them gettign stuck behind everything when you change directions (and stalkers being faster) so you have to manually front them in engagements. Blink research time is kinda bad, but I guess it makes sense. People are so good at blink micro now that people need a little bit more time to prepare for blink rush attacks
All of the zerg changes are to try and help cover for the infestor nerf. Overseers are cheaper so you can contaminate stuff and it isn't as big a deal if you lose them (or so the blizz theory crafting goes) and the faster ultras make the window smaller. SO hopefully you dont need infestors to carry you for as long.
The problem is, infestors will still be way OP in some ways, and wholly deficient in others. And the inherent problem (that infestors are used for everything) won't be solved because....all the other options are still worse. Seriously, ZvP was terribad before. I don't like the idea of fungal not being a stun, but I think it preventing blink is some BS. No other spells in the game disable other spells. I don't think stun should affect massive either. And lastly, the idea that NP shouldn't affect psyonic is a good one. NP HT and storming the crap out of the other ht's is a little too powerful.
So really, infestors will still be uber abusive and chainfungaly and base snipe with infested terrans.... so they will still FEEL powerful and OP and stuff, but they won't actually be able to stop mass collo.
// and really, people you all need to stop saying OMG you can NP immortals. Who builds them pvz anyways?
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I dont understand the NP change. Nobody is going to use NP on a stalker or a zealot so they just made the entire spell obsolete. So basically we're back to roach/corrupter.. Which is fine if they make corrupters less trash. Just wish zerg didnt have so many useless units like corrupter/hydra that are completely situational. As a zerg player theres something broken when you have to rush to tier 3 to compete with tier 1 and tier 2 protoss/terran units just about every single game and really the infestor is the only unit that bridged that large gap. I think its good overall game design to not have zerg rely so heavily on a single unit but you have to compensate in other ways.
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Can anyone get on NA PTR? I'm unable to log in, i've made a few posts on the SC2 forums about it and no one has replied.
wtf.
As far as I can tell, Blizzard has not said it's down.
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edit: nm stream went down
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idk if the immortal changes are really going to dig protoss out of the hole that is PvT atm- granted theyllb e slightly, SLIGHTLY better against the 1-1-1 but I'm not sure it'll even help much against it- I hope blizzard has some other changes in mind to help protoss against it. As it is now, a bronzie can 1-1-1 a masters and the masters will have difficulty as if it was another masters (gross overexaggeration)
korea 30% pvt win rate doesnt lie
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On September 10 2011 17:19 PPTouch wrote:
idk if the immortal changes are really going to dig protoss out of the hole that is PvT atm- granted theyllb e slightly, SLIGHTLY better against the 1-1-1 but I'm not sure it'll even help much against it- I hope blizzard has some other changes in mind to help protoss against it. As it is now, a bronzie can 1-1-1 a masters and the masters will have difficulty as if it was another masters (gross overexaggeration)
korea 30% pvt win rate doesnt lie
Hey man, a 1 range increase is a LOT. Remember how roaches actually became useable because of a 1 range buff?
+1 or -1 range can be the difference between a shit unit and a good one sometimes.
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On September 10 2011 17:28 dogabutila wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 17:19 PPTouch wrote:
idk if the immortal changes are really going to dig protoss out of the hole that is PvT atm- granted theyllb e slightly, SLIGHTLY better against the 1-1-1 but I'm not sure it'll even help much against it- I hope blizzard has some other changes in mind to help protoss against it. As it is now, a bronzie can 1-1-1 a masters and the masters will have difficulty as if it was another masters (gross overexaggeration)
korea 30% pvt win rate doesnt lie Hey man, a 1 range increase is a LOT. Remember how roaches actually became useable because of a 1 range buff? +1 or -1 range can be the difference between a shit unit and a good one sometimes.
can't really compare that much tho, roaches have always been used in masses, not immortals
it would make a HUGE difference if say stalkers range was buffed by 1
now sure the immortal +1 range is definitely good but it's not as big as the roach buff was back then
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The good thing of the NP nerf is that more players will experiment with the mothership, because frankly the broodlord, roach, infestor combo is very hard to deal with in the late stages of the game. With the acceleration speed increase I am sure that we are going to see more of the Mothership.
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On September 10 2011 16:44 GoatSwarm wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 10 2011 16:12 Roblin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 15:42 GoatSwarm wrote:So they decided to make Neural not affect massive units. So what? Fellow Zergs, I know this is obviously going to make some of our fights a lot harder, but is that so bad? The reason I play this game right now is to improve, and I think that the harder it gets the better I get in the end. That's why I don't whine about balance. It's unecessary and actually sort of annoying. Take it with some strength and move on to try and beat your opponent without that particular spell, at least that's what I'm going to do. agreed, I almost never used neural anyway. my thoughts on zerg strength as of 1.4: fungal damage - meh, 16% of the funal dps goes away, which means about 2 % of the total dps goes away, my lings are the real unit-murderers anyway, the fungals killing stuff too was mainly a bonus. NP change - almost never used it anyway, in ZvP there are a few possible situations: the attack from protoss comes with: no colossi: pure ling can handle it. 1-2 colossi: I should have about 3 infestors, mass ling + those can handle it 6-8 colossi: I should be maxed out on infestor ling with a massive economy advantage at this time, those + reinforcements should handle it. 10+ colossi: I should have my maxed upgraded ultras, lings and infestors out, assuming I can fungal them to make them not flee, I should win with my ultras see? no NP. in ZvT I only used it when I saw him getting mass thor, I guess I will have to get creative and solve the thor-issue some other way. overseer cost and contaminate change: interesting, mathematicly speaking the contaminate was buffed, the energy cost was increased, but not doubled, so you can still get more contaminate for the same cost, I will also be able to get a few overseers to scout with without it being a huge investment. ultra build time: doesn't change extremely much, but does change some, I like ultras so perhaps a ultra-rush build?. overall: I would say zerg is equally powerful before and after this patch, it is slightly less cost-efficient, but also slightly easier to acquire, since NP is in effect gone, no need to spend money on it right? and the above (non-costefficient but easy to get = OVERWHELM WITH MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF UNITS!) is what embodies zerg right? If mass Thor the Ultra build time change could make for Ultras v. Thors. Also to reply to your Colosssi number stuff, I personally prefer a ton of Broods with some Festor support if massive amounts of Colossi. And yes, the fungal nerf is quite insignificant as well as Zerg being nearly as equally powerful when the patch hits. Perhaps there is a difference on other servers, but for me.. I'll just go with it. ^^ I too find the Overseer change very interesting, though admittedly I have not been using them as much as I should in any matchup and I probably will try to implement them in my play a lot more after the patch, same with the Ultralisk. I seriously hated the buildtime, but love the unit. On a sidenote, recently I've been finding myself to stop almost any Terran army with relative ease. (I'm currently at like 750point Master EU.. Slack slack and nothing but slack on my part) This by making a third macro hatch on 2base before taking a third, and massing up on Roach-Ling with just 10 or so Mutas. I don't even use infestors in that matchup anymore unless it somehow goes to MASS Marine. Hell, I don't even need banelings. And with the blueflame nerf I guess it'll be even easier since I can get more lings than I normally would. Is this just me or something you've experienced as well?
I have not thought of that actually (mass roach/ling with a few mutas), but yes, since I started going mass infestor I have never thought banelings were a necessity, mass speedling can handle pretty much ANY ground army cost efficiently as long as it doesn't have insane amounts of splash (not very larvae efficiently though) before infestors pop out.
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On September 10 2011 17:19 PPTouch wrote:
idk if the immortal changes are really going to dig protoss out of the hole that is PvT atm- granted theyllb e slightly, SLIGHTLY better against the 1-1-1 but I'm not sure it'll even help much against it- I hope blizzard has some other changes in mind to help protoss against it. As it is now, a bronzie can 1-1-1 a masters and the masters will have difficulty as if it was another masters (gross overexaggeration)
korea 30% pvt win rate doesnt lie
According to http://twitter.com/#!/sc2statistics, TvP in Korea for August was 44-40 missing some games. That's a 47.6% win rate for Protoss, and is such a low sample size as to mean very little anyway. Specifically GSL results are worse, but an even smaller sample size such that it means even less.
The immortal buff will undoubtedly help at least somewhat. The barracks build time increase will be a very slight help. Guardian Shield actually working against Sieged Tank attacks will help as well. While none of these things are individually massive changes, put together as well as that the 1-1-1 actually wasn't impossible to hold off (as much as people liked to say that it was) may make it entirely reasonable.
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Why does everyone say Corrupters are so weak vs Colossi compared to Vikings? I hear so much whine about how corrupters don't kill collosi fast enough... If you check with the unit tester, corrupters (with corruption) kill colossi SLIGHTLY faster than Vikings do (it is almost a tie). I guess the trade off is that Vikings have longer range and can land, whereas Corrupters have higher health and 2 armour.
I can empathise when zergs say stuff like 'corrupters are boring/useless once colossi are dead/need more range, but stop saying they don't do enough damage and kill colossi fast enough, cause they do it slightly faster than vikings, and vikings are all terran has to do with colossi as well...
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On September 10 2011 18:14 Ryder. wrote:
Why does everyone say Corrupters are so weak vs Colossi compared to Vikings? I hear so much whine about how corrupters don't kill collosi fast enough... If you check with the unit tester, corrupters (with corruption) kill colossi SLIGHTLY faster than Vikings do (it is almost a tie). I guess the trade off is that Vikings have longer range and can land, whereas Corrupters have higher health and 2 armour.
I can empathise when zergs say stuff like 'corrupters are boring/useless once colossi are dead/need more range, but stop saying they don't do enough damage and kill colossi fast enough, cause they do it slightly faster than vikings, and vikings are all terran has to do with colossi as well...
Bit off topic, but I'll answer anyways:
The range of the vikings, and generally how the armies work, is the difference here. The terran can keep his vikings out of range, kite with his marines and marauders, and keep sniping collosus. When the battle is over, he can land his vikings for aditional firepower.
The zerg has to stand still and engage the army, or his corrupers get sniped before the collosuses are killed. Thus he has to trade his entire army to kill the collosuses, and the corrupers are pretty much useless after that. Difference, of course, is that the zerg can immediately remax with the stocked larvae, and the units are generally much much stronger than protoss gateway units. While the terran can't remax, and will probably die if he doesn't do enough damage to the collosus ball.
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On September 10 2011 17:04 dogabutila wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 12:54 hashaki wrote:On September 10 2011 12:45 emc wrote:
might as well give frenzy back to the infestor that we had in the beta. Remove NP and give us frenzy so we can make our ultras attack faster. Seems like NP is pointless now why even bother with it?
It should be a hive tech research at the very least or even if the infestor was a hive unit but we had something at T2 to compensate (lurkers!). Seriously, cry much? To call an ability useless because you can't use it vs the units it -has been- most used against up untill now is just useless crying. Tanks? Immortals? Templars? Ghosts? You can still NP the shit out of these units and they can do some serious damage. Fact of the matter is that Infestor has been this crazy counter-to-all-units-and-compositions lately and that's just wrong and bad design. Now with a slight nerf of FG and NP it might start balancing out, but I still see Infestors being the bulk of alot of Zerg play even after these nerfs simply becasue it'll still be a strong unit with it's spells. Personally I'd rather see FG do 50% slow (while it still disabled abilities like blink etc) instead of root rather than a damage-reduction as is suggested in this patch. It's been said before, but the "problem" (if there is one) with FG is that is roots AND does quite sick damage. Imagine the whine if Storm had 50% less damage but stunned units under it. Oh my god the crying we'd hear from both Terrans and Zergs and Protoss would just be "pfft, EMP or NP them" (like alot of zergs are saying to P on how to deal with Infestors right now) I play random. and here is my perspective. Rax nerf is annoying, but I can see it being a little too strong sometiems in 2 rax openers. BFH is over nerfed. They were too strong as is, but 5 makes the upgrade worthless. 7 might have been a better compromise. Seeker missle buff.... I guess you could use it for cute things. I saw minigun shoot 2 of them at a banshee and run that into the other teams army the other day. Still not sure it's really useful since it has such a terrible cast range.
Look beyond the numbers a little bit. BFHs still 2-shot zerglings, 3-shot upgraded marines. The only changes are that they don't 2-shot unupgraded marines or workers without a +1 weapon upgrade. It's slight, but probably needed to prevent early-game worker-rape, but doesn't destroy their viability later on. Even +6 still allows for 2-shot worker kills, it HAS to be a +5.
Though it is still funny that they are being looked at now, when they always had this ability for the past year. Clearly blue-flame's icon buff was op.
I think the best alternative for neural parasite is to change it from massive to psionic. Allows them to NP colossi (a plenty valid counter-measure), but not archons / templar, which are used against infestors. Also buffs ghosts, so they cant be NP'd and then have suicide emp casts on the rest of the ghosts.
Better possibilities could include reducing neural range, fungal not affecting massive. The neural change just feels too random and out of place to be a "well thought out" change. I don't see it leaving the PTR, much like the other infestor changes (air-immunity fungals and projectile fungals)
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I look forward to this patch, that's all I'm going to say.
All the crying about the different changes are very standard and have been seen in exactly every single patchnote post. Opinions are of a constant flow, and will change.
I kind of like the NP change. Always felt something was wrong when you could take over the entire backbone of the opponent and destroy everything within seconds. Zeal archon gets useless unless you landed _clutch_ feedbacks that kill infestors even before they NP.
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On September 10 2011 17:45 Inex wrote:
The good thing of the NP nerf is that more players will experiment with the mothership, because frankly the broodlord, roach, infestor combo is very hard to deal with in the late stages of the game. With the acceleration speed increase I am sure that we are going to see more of the Mothership.
Why not just make the Mothership resistant to NP? Kinda like the Ultra?
And can I ask, i didnt play broodwar too much, but how was the dark archon balanced back then? im just curious. cause i do remember it being a forever mind control, strong than what it is now, so how was it balanced? Cant we just try to imitate that?
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On September 10 2011 18:29 DeltaForce wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 17:45 Inex wrote:
The good thing of the NP nerf is that more players will experiment with the mothership, because frankly the broodlord, roach, infestor combo is very hard to deal with in the late stages of the game. With the acceleration speed increase I am sure that we are going to see more of the Mothership. Why not just make the Mothership resistant to NP? Kinda like the Ultra? And can I ask, i didnt play broodwar too much, but how was the dark archon balanced back then? im just curious. cause i do remember it being a forever mind control, strong than what it is now, so how was it balanced? Cant we just try to imitate that?
it also makes carriers more viable as well. I think they should simply disable NP air units because that seems to be the biggest reason we don't see BC's and Carriers in TvZ and PvT. Zerg SHOULD be using corrupters to counter massive air units, not infestors. As far as massive ground units, zerg DEFINITELY needs NP because there is no answer to mass thor pushes before broodlords/ultra. Fact is, we can get corrupters in time to counter mass air but we can't get BL/Ultra to stop mass ground in time so we need infestors.
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On September 10 2011 18:29 DeltaForce wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 17:45 Inex wrote:
The good thing of the NP nerf is that more players will experiment with the mothership, because frankly the broodlord, roach, infestor combo is very hard to deal with in the late stages of the game. With the acceleration speed increase I am sure that we are going to see more of the Mothership. Why not just make the Mothership resistant to NP? Kinda like the Ultra? And can I ask, i didnt play broodwar too much, but how was the dark archon balanced back then? im just curious. cause i do remember it being a forever mind control, strong than what it is now, so how was it balanced? Cant we just try to imitate that?
150 energy instead of just 100, takes forever to get enough, no "start with more energy upgrade", and 250 gas instead of just 100. That combined with the fact that spellcasters were generally much harder to use in BW because of the hotkeys. You couldn't just make 20 of them and mind control everything.
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hmm, there's still baneling drops left to fight protoss ball.
i think some midgame thor/tank/marine mixes will become quite strong without NP able to target thors.
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On September 10 2011 13:43 Supamang wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 13:29 shadymmj wrote:On September 10 2011 12:46 Bactrian wrote:On September 10 2011 12:27 Whitewing wrote:On September 10 2011 12:20 Maetl wrote:On September 10 2011 12:13 izgodlee wrote:On September 10 2011 12:04 Protosnake wrote:
oh dear, they might have to make t3 units in order to beat t3 units! the shock and horror!
Yeah, because zerg T3 isnt so much later than other race right ? When that terran will be pushing you with Thor/BFH at the 15min mark the zerg wont die because he will have several Ultra ready to fight Ultra and thor are both "T3" after all, they're out at the same time Not. Maybe if zergs weren;t so greedy and needed 6 bases and 90 drones before they got a hive =/ It takes quite a bit longer to tech to T3 safely for zerg than it does for other races. Zerg does not have a very cost efficient way of defending, nor does it have terribly cost efficient units as a whole. Zerg also needs enough of an economy behind their T3 to get a lot of it out as soon as it finishes, zerg can not slowly build up its big guns like terran or protoss, it needs to produce many of them at a time. Why does cost efficiency matter when you're ahead in economy and bases? Good work not reading what was in front of you. The whole point was that your not cost effective, that's why you need more bases to be safe. Hence why you can't T3 that quickly. i think that's an excuse for poor decisions, sloppy micro and bad scouting. zerg tech = 100 gas for lair, 100 gas for pit and 150 for hive. baseline, that's not too expensive. that you want X bases with Y units, that's your style of play. zerg units are only weak when toss is near to maxed out. Its not just about resources, its about the time it takes to get to the tech. Time it takes for Terran to get to Thors: Supply Depot - 30 seconds Barracks - 60 seconds Factory - 60 seconds Armory - 65 seconds (tech labs can be built any time between barracks to armory) Thats a total of 215 seconds to get Thor tech For Ultras, it takes Zerg: Spawning Pool - 65 seconds Lair - 80 seconds Infestation pit - 50 seconds Hive - 100 seconds Ultra Cavern - 65 seconds Thats a total of 355 seconds to get to Ultralisk tech Broodlords would take: Spawning Pool - 65 seconds Lair - 80 seconds Infestation pit - 50 seconds Hive - 100 seconds Greater Spire - 100 seconds (Spire can be built any time between Lair and Hive) Thats a total of 390 seconds. There is absolutely no way for a zerg to get to T3 tech before a Terran. This isnt even considering the fact that Terran has much more cost efficient units than Zerg does. Labeling things by tiers is completely misleading simply because of the time (and effort) it takes to get to those late tech units are totally disproportional EDIT: oh and for Colossi: Pylon - 25 Gateway - 65 Cyber Core - 50 Robotics Facility - 65 Robotics Bay - 65 Thats a total of 270 seconds for Colossi. Zerg Tier 3 is the slowest
Horribly biased post.
Firstly, barracks will be 65 seconds not 60.
Secondly, you completely ignored that thors and colossus have to be built sequentially one at a time, whereas as soon as you get the tech zerg can build as many ultras as he can afford simultaneously. Thor and colossi and are not that useful in ones or 2s, you really need 3 or more to have a serious push capable of beating roaches, and if you take the amount of time taken to build those units the tech time is actually pretty balanced.
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EPT
