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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
Void Rays, tanks, immortals, ghosts, high templars, sentries, phoenixes, brood lords, queens, other infestors, warp prisms, overseers, medivacs
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On September 10 2011 14:41 RMmanlots wrote:
Not an angry/upset post, but a legit question...
If you can't neural parasite massive units, what are you going to NP? The only legit target worth the upgrade, 100 energy, and temporary loss of the infestor is MAYBE the voidray. Maybe broodlords. Anyone?
Broods are massive too =(.
Immortals are a good target and that's about it. But they are seen less than archons or colossi. Some people are saying tanks, but they are actually terrible NP targets.
Edit: guy above me is crazy if he thinks any of those except the first three are worth it.
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On September 10 2011 14:37 Severus_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 14:22 MagicGunner wrote:On September 10 2011 13:15 MaestroSC wrote:On September 10 2011 12:59 Mizzit wrote:
wow no more neural on my colossi is gonna be great. the mass fester players are going to need to find a new build against toss. probably gonna see more roach corrupter w/ some hydra mixed in, but i can see this as the beginning of the end for the mass fester play style. what do i know though This was the normal when Zerg was getting repeatedly crushed by protoss. This combination was absolute garbage in the match up, and was what caused blizzard to make the infestor more viable and useful. You are about 6 months behind the meta game suggesting this. The reason why the composition was so bad was because Corruptors were the lynch pin of success in any large engagement and Corruptors are really really bad. You need a lot of them to really do anything in a timely manner and if you make too many or too few you're screwed. A terran player can fly a wave of Vikings in and out to poke and prod the colossus. With Corruptors, unless a Colossus is separated from the death ball, you either have to send everything or nothing. Corruptors are essentially flying roaches that don't have the benefit of being cheap.On September 10 2011 13:29 shadymmj wrote:On September 10 2011 12:46 Bactrian wrote:On September 10 2011 12:27 Whitewing wrote:On September 10 2011 12:20 Maetl wrote:On September 10 2011 12:13 izgodlee wrote:On September 10 2011 12:04 Protosnake wrote:
oh dear, they might have to make t3 units in order to beat t3 units! the shock and horror!
Yeah, because zerg T3 isnt so much later than other race right ? When that terran will be pushing you with Thor/BFH at the 15min mark the zerg wont die because he will have several Ultra ready to fight Ultra and thor are both "T3" after all, they're out at the same time Not. Maybe if zergs weren;t so greedy and needed 6 bases and 90 drones before they got a hive =/ It takes quite a bit longer to tech to T3 safely for zerg than it does for other races. Zerg does not have a very cost efficient way of defending, nor does it have terribly cost efficient units as a whole. Zerg also needs enough of an economy behind their T3 to get a lot of it out as soon as it finishes, zerg can not slowly build up its big guns like terran or protoss, it needs to produce many of them at a time. Why does cost efficiency matter when you're ahead in economy and bases? Good work not reading what was in front of you. The whole point was that your not cost effective, that's why you need more bases to be safe. Hence why you can't T3 that quickly. i think that's an excuse for poor decisions, sloppy micro and bad scouting. zerg tech = 100 gas for lair, 100 gas for pit and 150 for hive. baseline, that's not too expensive. that you want X bases with Y units, that's your style of play. zerg units are only weak when toss is near to maxed out. I don't think you understand how Zerg works very well. Zerg doesn't have many units that spawn "ready for action." Zerglings require a 100 gas upgrade to be relevant. Roaches require a 100 gas upgrade to be relevant. Banelings require a 150 gas upgrade to be relevant. Hydralisks need a 150 gas upgrade to be relevant. Overlords need a 100 gas upgrade to scout or you could morph a single overseer for 50 (as of this patch) to get some information. You see where I'm going with this right? Zerg units are weak when they've been given all of their proper upgrades vs. a protoss that's near max. NOW IMAGINE IF YOU TOOK ALL OR HALF THOSE VITAL UPGRADES AWAY AND CUT ARMY SIZE ALL IN A GAMBLE TO GET FAST T3. The icing on the cake is that our T3 units aren't revolutionary once one hits the field. When a thor comes out, a flock of mutas have to GTFO. When a Colossus comes out, your lings better GTFO. When an ultralisk or Broodlord comes out you send 4 zealots or a void ray to kill it. You need a sizable number of them. 2 or 3 Broodlords with a poorly teched ground army will crumble to literally anything thrown at it. And to your comment of: "This game is not rushing t3 asap and seeing who gets there first, I'm saying Zerg can tech to t3 faster than they are doing so now, maybe delaying their third saturation except for gas." You're right that Zerg T3 can come out faster then whats been seen, however the time and money invested in that tech when it's not done safely leaves the opponent with a HUGE window of opportunity to retaliate. You are thinking in a wrong way bro you are comparing t3 to t1 ? Anyway people like you should start thinking about well maybe i should not mass only t3 units and casters and prey i win and cry about how my expensive shit dies to snipes,feedback,siege fire,PFs whatever and start thinking how those t3 units can be my support for my army like it was in BW Zerg. Maybe you shouldnt have 90 drones and have 60-70 with mass ling,bane with some infestors and some ultras and not 32 infestors.
I'm sorry can you highlight the part of my post you are actually referring to? Where am I comparing tier 3 to tier 1 units? And where is this "People like you" stuff coming from? I'm not crying at all. My long winded post was to emphasize the point that Zerg tier three isn't Protoss or Terran tier three, it can't be rushed otherwise you cut too much for any smart opponent to pass up.
Or are you just making a broad generalization about me based on the race I play with no evidence to back up what you're saying? Seriously I've got no idea what the fuck you're saying. Reread my post then reread your post. Try to explain it to me.
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On September 10 2011 13:59 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 13:58 Defacer wrote:On September 10 2011 12:59 Mizzit wrote:
wow no more neural on my colossi is gonna be great. the mass fester players are going to need to find a new build against toss. probably gonna see more roach corrupter w/ some hydra mixed in, but i can see this as the beginning of the end for the mass fester play style. what do i know though Roach Corruptor? the dark days of zvp are returning .. Yeah for bad players without knowledge of the match up, it certainly does. Korean zergs aren't using NP that heavily, yet they still absolutely murder protoss.
I'm just talking as a spectator ... roach corrupter versus the deathball was just boring to watch.
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Australia4865 Posts
On September 10 2011 13:59 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 13:58 Defacer wrote:On September 10 2011 12:59 Mizzit wrote:
wow no more neural on my colossi is gonna be great. the mass fester players are going to need to find a new build against toss. probably gonna see more roach corrupter w/ some hydra mixed in, but i can see this as the beginning of the end for the mass fester play style. what do i know though Roach Corruptor? the dark days of zvp are returning .. Yeah for bad players without knowledge of the match up, it certainly does. Korean zergs aren't using NP that heavily, yet they still absolutely murder protoss.
Yeah that is what I'm thinking lol...
I don't get the complaining, Koreans Zergs are absolutely crushing Protoss but we don't even see NP being used which will probably mean ZvP will still favor Zerg after Patch :|
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On September 10 2011 14:10 shadymmj wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 14:00 Bactrian wrote:On September 10 2011 13:29 shadymmj wrote:On September 10 2011 12:46 Bactrian wrote:On September 10 2011 12:27 Whitewing wrote:On September 10 2011 12:20 Maetl wrote:On September 10 2011 12:13 izgodlee wrote:On September 10 2011 12:04 Protosnake wrote:
oh dear, they might have to make t3 units in order to beat t3 units! the shock and horror!
Yeah, because zerg T3 isnt so much later than other race right ? When that terran will be pushing you with Thor/BFH at the 15min mark the zerg wont die because he will have several Ultra ready to fight Ultra and thor are both "T3" after all, they're out at the same time Not. Maybe if zergs weren;t so greedy and needed 6 bases and 90 drones before they got a hive =/ It takes quite a bit longer to tech to T3 safely for zerg than it does for other races. Zerg does not have a very cost efficient way of defending, nor does it have terribly cost efficient units as a whole. Zerg also needs enough of an economy behind their T3 to get a lot of it out as soon as it finishes, zerg can not slowly build up its big guns like terran or protoss, it needs to produce many of them at a time. Why does cost efficiency matter when you're ahead in economy and bases? Good work not reading what was in front of you. The whole point was that your not cost effective, that's why you need more bases to be safe. Hence why you can't T3 that quickly. i think that's an excuse for poor decisions, sloppy micro and bad scouting. zerg tech = 100 gas for lair, 100 gas for pit and 150 for hive. baseline, that's not too expensive. that you want X bases with Y units, that's your style of play. zerg units are only weak when toss is near to maxed out. I'm not sure what your saying at all here, currently if your using infestors and you scout coli, the correct response is to get NP. In 1.4 the correct response to Coli is corruptors. You cannot win with roach corruptor on 2 base vs 2 base because corruptors are fantastically cost ineffecient vs coli. So... you'll need 3+ bases to survive against coli anyway? spire + greater spire for broods and ultra cavern? The +2/+3 armor upgrades you need for ultras to be usable? then the 250 gas cost per brood/150 gas cost per ultra? This is actually pretty comparable to teching to Coli with thermal lance and some ups, but the thing is having 1-2 coli out against lings/roaches etc. is a massive help. Having 1-2 ultras or broods out versus zealot/stalker/archon or gateway/coli doesn't help that much. 5+ broods or ultras are fantastic, but you're not going to have the gas to do that quickly enough off a lower number of bases anyway. Because it takes time for the toss to push across the map? You also need thermal for colossi, that's not even debatable, or they will be fungaled and focused down. You force them to advance slowly due to fungal ling surrounds, and once ultra tech pops, you can make a few at once. No ultras don't really need armour ups to be useful at that stage, in fact stock upgrades are better. This game is not rushing t3 asap and seeing who gets there first, I'm saying Zerg can tech to t3 faster than they are doing so now, maybe delaying their third saturation except for gas.
I actually use a very similar strategy that what you're describing in my ZvP. I go almost pure ling with fastest possible 2/2 ups, pop out 3-4 infestors while expanding and then go to hive
This does extremely well versus gateway units on open maps (I don't use this on corridor maps, it just doesn't work because you can't get good surrounds). If they forcefield themselves, it's easy to hit their nat or force warp ins at their main. Fungal is great for dpsing the ball when they bunch up to reduce surface area.
Now keep in mind, ling/infestor is the smoothest path to T3. It gives the upgrades you need and you need the infestation pit to get hive anyway. It's basically THE way to go if you are aiming for fast T3.
However you cannot go infestor/ling without NP against coli and expect to win the fight. Colossus have BBQ lings for breakfast lunch and tea. And corruptors do not kill coli fast enough to save the lings, and they cannot snipe coli either. So ling/corruptor isn't a viable composition versus Coli. For the same reason ultra/ling isn't either. The ultras aren't going to plough through the ball and take out the coli before all your zerglings have been toasted.
This is why I don't like the change. I prefer to get fast T3 versus protoss, this actually makes it harder to do so because now I can't transition from a zergling/infestor midgame into zergling/ultra/infestor or festor/BL.
i.e. it basically kills ling infestor in ZvP, which is the best T3 transition.
The situation you've described is complete fantasy. Zerg cannot 2 base versus protoss very well. Zerg needs to take a third, and when protoss sees it they will move out when thermal is done or when they reach the number of coli they are comfortable with. Having lings/infestors in decent numbers at this stage is plausible (I aim to have them with my current playstyle). Stalling out a push versus 1-2 coli with lings and WITHOUT NP is extremely difficult (I would go for a runby - its extremely dangerous to engage with the high liklihood of coli surviving and warp in reinforcements). Stalling out long enough WHILE also banking gas for ultras (no more infestors) and while waiting for hive/cavern and then ultras to finish is completely ridiculous.
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On September 10 2011 14:51 MagicGunner wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 14:37 Severus_ wrote:On September 10 2011 14:22 MagicGunner wrote:On September 10 2011 13:15 MaestroSC wrote:On September 10 2011 12:59 Mizzit wrote:
wow no more neural on my colossi is gonna be great. the mass fester players are going to need to find a new build against toss. probably gonna see more roach corrupter w/ some hydra mixed in, but i can see this as the beginning of the end for the mass fester play style. what do i know though This was the normal when Zerg was getting repeatedly crushed by protoss. This combination was absolute garbage in the match up, and was what caused blizzard to make the infestor more viable and useful. You are about 6 months behind the meta game suggesting this. The reason why the composition was so bad was because Corruptors were the lynch pin of success in any large engagement and Corruptors are really really bad. You need a lot of them to really do anything in a timely manner and if you make too many or too few you're screwed. A terran player can fly a wave of Vikings in and out to poke and prod the colossus. With Corruptors, unless a Colossus is separated from the death ball, you either have to send everything or nothing. Corruptors are essentially flying roaches that don't have the benefit of being cheap.On September 10 2011 13:29 shadymmj wrote:On September 10 2011 12:46 Bactrian wrote:On September 10 2011 12:27 Whitewing wrote:On September 10 2011 12:20 Maetl wrote:On September 10 2011 12:13 izgodlee wrote:On September 10 2011 12:04 Protosnake wrote:
oh dear, they might have to make t3 units in order to beat t3 units! the shock and horror!
Yeah, because zerg T3 isnt so much later than other race right ? When that terran will be pushing you with Thor/BFH at the 15min mark the zerg wont die because he will have several Ultra ready to fight Ultra and thor are both "T3" after all, they're out at the same time Not. Maybe if zergs weren;t so greedy and needed 6 bases and 90 drones before they got a hive =/ It takes quite a bit longer to tech to T3 safely for zerg than it does for other races. Zerg does not have a very cost efficient way of defending, nor does it have terribly cost efficient units as a whole. Zerg also needs enough of an economy behind their T3 to get a lot of it out as soon as it finishes, zerg can not slowly build up its big guns like terran or protoss, it needs to produce many of them at a time. Why does cost efficiency matter when you're ahead in economy and bases? Good work not reading what was in front of you. The whole point was that your not cost effective, that's why you need more bases to be safe. Hence why you can't T3 that quickly. i think that's an excuse for poor decisions, sloppy micro and bad scouting. zerg tech = 100 gas for lair, 100 gas for pit and 150 for hive. baseline, that's not too expensive. that you want X bases with Y units, that's your style of play. zerg units are only weak when toss is near to maxed out. I don't think you understand how Zerg works very well. Zerg doesn't have many units that spawn "ready for action." Zerglings require a 100 gas upgrade to be relevant. Roaches require a 100 gas upgrade to be relevant. Banelings require a 150 gas upgrade to be relevant. Hydralisks need a 150 gas upgrade to be relevant. Overlords need a 100 gas upgrade to scout or you could morph a single overseer for 50 (as of this patch) to get some information. You see where I'm going with this right? Zerg units are weak when they've been given all of their proper upgrades vs. a protoss that's near max. NOW IMAGINE IF YOU TOOK ALL OR HALF THOSE VITAL UPGRADES AWAY AND CUT ARMY SIZE ALL IN A GAMBLE TO GET FAST T3. The icing on the cake is that our T3 units aren't revolutionary once one hits the field. When a thor comes out, a flock of mutas have to GTFO. When a Colossus comes out, your lings better GTFO. When an ultralisk or Broodlord comes out you send 4 zealots or a void ray to kill it. You need a sizable number of them. 2 or 3 Broodlords with a poorly teched ground army will crumble to literally anything thrown at it. And to your comment of: "This game is not rushing t3 asap and seeing who gets there first, I'm saying Zerg can tech to t3 faster than they are doing so now, maybe delaying their third saturation except for gas." You're right that Zerg T3 can come out faster then whats been seen, however the time and money invested in that tech when it's not done safely leaves the opponent with a HUGE window of opportunity to retaliate. You are thinking in a wrong way bro you are comparing t3 to t1 ? Anyway people like you should start thinking about well maybe i should not mass only t3 units and casters and prey i win and cry about how my expensive shit dies to snipes,feedback,siege fire,PFs whatever and start thinking how those t3 units can be my support for my army like it was in BW Zerg. Maybe you shouldnt have 90 drones and have 60-70 with mass ling,bane with some infestors and some ultras and not 32 infestors. I'm sorry can you highlight the part of my post you are actually referring to? Where am I comparing tier 3 to tier 1 units? And where is this "People like you" stuff coming from? I'm not crying at all. My long winded post was to emphasize the point that Zerg tier three isn't Protoss or Terran tier three, it can't be rushed otherwise you cut too much for any smart opponent to pass up. Or are you just making a broad generalization about me based on the race I play with no evidence to back up what you're saying? Seriously I've got no idea what the fuck you're saying. Reread my post then reread your post. Try to explain it to me.
Srsly ? Colo is T3 robo unit
Thor is T3 Mech unit
Lings are T1!?#?
Mutas are T2?!?#
Maybe you are rushing it the wrong way ? Do i really need to explain ? You are comapring T3 rushing 1base vs 1base which is retarded and you are comparing timings lulz so by your thought process they should make barracks the same time as spawning pool to be balanced ?#!? Anyway thats also stupid because the game is not played that way lol. Maybe if you play Mineral only defense with some upgrades you will find yourself geting to T3 faster, because you will expand faster get more gases faster ? I miss the the old days already ppl whine all the time it doesn't matter what patch notes say they whine I bet my life that if they make barracks spawn with 2 rauders not 1 pro player playing as toss will switch their race because they will sit down and work a way all of it. Insted of whining all the time you should do the same and just give your opinion about the patch thats it you won't change anything in it.
User was temp banned for this post.
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This is by far the worst patch ever to be released for zerg. I expect to see their win rates plunging, especially vs protoss. I love the T3 discussion too. Yeah, zerg should get broodlords, ultra's bla bla. By then zerg is long gone haha.
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On September 10 2011 12:18 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +Zergs have their options. People are talking about Thor/BFH as if it's the ultimate build for Terrans No one say that, it's just that the counter to Thor/BFH play are Broodlord or mass Neural Neural being deleted in the next patch, terran just have to push before T3 kick in, and it's game over.
Jesus.... Use your new cheaper overseers, scout for a change, and then build roaches. Thor/BFH is mediocre at the very best. It loses straight up to a substantial roach army unless you go out of your way to engage in a bad place. Honestly, its not the end of the world for zerg... this nerf doesnt come close to some of the nerfs protoss have suffered through. Hell, patch 1.3 forced every protoss player to relearn their core builds and timings. At a higher level, lets say mid-masters and above... your timings are very important... you feel minor differences and you eventually adjust. Protoss had their entire core shifted recently, had all their builds thrown off, and have had to adjust... and for what? to fix a mirror matchup using the wrong method... only to ACTUALLY fix the matchup the following patch?
Thor/BFH is a shit comp. If they manage to throw in seige tanks and push you with that composition then stop sitting back and making only drones the first 15 minutes... thats not the only way to play zerg. Players like July make low drone builds pretty damn consistent. If you are saying "hope they dont push before you get T3" then you are completely lost and maybe higher level SC2 is not for you... maybe you're happy in your platinum league... "terran just have to push before T3 kick in"? WTF are you doing the entire game while you're waiting for that to happen? Open up your mind a little bit... explore the map... interact with your opponent, but if you're just sitting back and hoping not to die then thats just a shitty way to play the game for any race.
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On September 10 2011 14:46 hitpoint wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 14:41 RMmanlots wrote:
Not an angry/upset post, but a legit question...
If you can't neural parasite massive units, what are you going to NP? The only legit target worth the upgrade, 100 energy, and temporary loss of the infestor is MAYBE the voidray. Maybe broodlords. Anyone? Broods are massive too =(. Immortals are a good target and that's about it. But they are seen less than archons or colossi. Some people are saying tanks, but they are actually terrible NP targets. Edit: guy above me is crazy if he thinks any of those except the first three are worth it.
you're right about the guy above you but I would argue a ghost steal + EMP could be devastating if you caught them pre-engagement. Obviously during the engagement they're actively microing the ghosts if they can...
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On September 10 2011 15:03 Bactrian wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 14:10 shadymmj wrote:On September 10 2011 14:00 Bactrian wrote:On September 10 2011 13:29 shadymmj wrote:On September 10 2011 12:46 Bactrian wrote:On September 10 2011 12:27 Whitewing wrote:On September 10 2011 12:20 Maetl wrote:On September 10 2011 12:13 izgodlee wrote:On September 10 2011 12:04 Protosnake wrote:
oh dear, they might have to make t3 units in order to beat t3 units! the shock and horror!
Yeah, because zerg T3 isnt so much later than other race right ? When that terran will be pushing you with Thor/BFH at the 15min mark the zerg wont die because he will have several Ultra ready to fight Ultra and thor are both "T3" after all, they're out at the same time Not. Maybe if zergs weren;t so greedy and needed 6 bases and 90 drones before they got a hive =/ It takes quite a bit longer to tech to T3 safely for zerg than it does for other races. Zerg does not have a very cost efficient way of defending, nor does it have terribly cost efficient units as a whole. Zerg also needs enough of an economy behind their T3 to get a lot of it out as soon as it finishes, zerg can not slowly build up its big guns like terran or protoss, it needs to produce many of them at a time. Why does cost efficiency matter when you're ahead in economy and bases? Good work not reading what was in front of you. The whole point was that your not cost effective, that's why you need more bases to be safe. Hence why you can't T3 that quickly. i think that's an excuse for poor decisions, sloppy micro and bad scouting. zerg tech = 100 gas for lair, 100 gas for pit and 150 for hive. baseline, that's not too expensive. that you want X bases with Y units, that's your style of play. zerg units are only weak when toss is near to maxed out. I'm not sure what your saying at all here, currently if your using infestors and you scout coli, the correct response is to get NP. In 1.4 the correct response to Coli is corruptors. You cannot win with roach corruptor on 2 base vs 2 base because corruptors are fantastically cost ineffecient vs coli. So... you'll need 3+ bases to survive against coli anyway? spire + greater spire for broods and ultra cavern? The +2/+3 armor upgrades you need for ultras to be usable? then the 250 gas cost per brood/150 gas cost per ultra? This is actually pretty comparable to teching to Coli with thermal lance and some ups, but the thing is having 1-2 coli out against lings/roaches etc. is a massive help. Having 1-2 ultras or broods out versus zealot/stalker/archon or gateway/coli doesn't help that much. 5+ broods or ultras are fantastic, but you're not going to have the gas to do that quickly enough off a lower number of bases anyway. Because it takes time for the toss to push across the map? You also need thermal for colossi, that's not even debatable, or they will be fungaled and focused down. You force them to advance slowly due to fungal ling surrounds, and once ultra tech pops, you can make a few at once. No ultras don't really need armour ups to be useful at that stage, in fact stock upgrades are better. This game is not rushing t3 asap and seeing who gets there first, I'm saying Zerg can tech to t3 faster than they are doing so now, maybe delaying their third saturation except for gas. I actually use a very similar strategy that what you're describing in my ZvP. I go almost pure ling with fastest possible 2/2 ups, pop out 3-4 infestors while expanding and then go to hive This does extremely well versus gateway units on open maps (I don't use this on corridor maps, it just doesn't work because you can't get good surrounds). If they forcefield themselves, it's easy to hit their nat or force warp ins at their main. Fungal is great for dpsing the ball when they bunch up to reduce surface area. Now keep in mind, ling/infestor is the smoothest path to T3. It gives the upgrades you need and you need the infestation pit to get hive anyway. It's basically THE way to go if you are aiming for fast T3. However you cannot go infestor/ling without NP against coli and expect to win the fight. Colossus have BBQ lings for breakfast lunch and tea. And corruptors do not kill coli fast enough to save the lings, and they cannot snipe coli either. So ling/corruptor isn't a viable composition versus Coli. For the same reason ultra/ling isn't either. The ultras aren't going to plough through the ball and take out the coli before all your zerglings have been toasted. This is why I don't like the change. I prefer to get fast T3 versus protoss, this actually makes it harder to do so because now I can't transition from a zergling/infestor midgame into zergling/ultra/infestor or festor/BL. i.e. it basically kills ling infestor in ZvP, which is the best T3 transition. The situation you've described is complete fantasy. Zerg cannot 2 base versus protoss very well. Zerg needs to take a third, and when protoss sees it they will move out when thermal is done or when they reach the number of coli they are comfortable with. Having lings/infestors in decent numbers at this stage is plausible (I aim to have them with my current playstyle). Stalling out a push versus 1-2 coli with lings and WITHOUT NP is extremely difficult (I would go for a runby - its extremely dangerous to engage with the high liklihood of coli surviving and warp in reinforcements). Stalling out long enough WHILE also banking gas for ultras (no more infestors) and while waiting for hive/cavern and then ultras to finish is completely ridiculous.
i'm quite sure you can take a third before thermal finishes with enough colossi to make it worthwhile. all i'm saying is to bring timings forward a little by cutting saturation on the third.
if there's only a couple of colossi, then roach/corruptors would be the better option, they only start to suck when colossi numbers get large. there is no way that ling/infestor should be able to hold 90% of the game, then BLs pop and game over in couple minutes. you admit that, at least, is kinda ridiculous.
however, that said, i would not mind seeing hydras changed to become a core t2 zerg unit again.
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On September 10 2011 14:43 thompett wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 14:41 RMmanlots wrote:
Not an angry/upset post, but a legit question...
If you can't neural parasite massive units, what are you going to NP? The only legit target worth the upgrade, 100 energy, and temporary loss of the infestor is MAYBE the voidray. Maybe broodlords. Anyone? 1. rush to infestor with NP 2. steal a probe 3. start building your protoss base 4. congrats, you do now have a remote chance of wining. User was warned for this post
Check out GSL results. Unfortunately, building a Protoss base is a pretty sure route to defeat.
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goodbye Destiny it was nice knowing you
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On September 10 2011 15:13 Severus_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 14:51 MagicGunner wrote:On September 10 2011 14:37 Severus_ wrote:On September 10 2011 14:22 MagicGunner wrote:On September 10 2011 13:15 MaestroSC wrote:On September 10 2011 12:59 Mizzit wrote:
wow no more neural on my colossi is gonna be great. the mass fester players are going to need to find a new build against toss. probably gonna see more roach corrupter w/ some hydra mixed in, but i can see this as the beginning of the end for the mass fester play style. what do i know though This was the normal when Zerg was getting repeatedly crushed by protoss. This combination was absolute garbage in the match up, and was what caused blizzard to make the infestor more viable and useful. You are about 6 months behind the meta game suggesting this. The reason why the composition was so bad was because Corruptors were the lynch pin of success in any large engagement and Corruptors are really really bad. You need a lot of them to really do anything in a timely manner and if you make too many or too few you're screwed. A terran player can fly a wave of Vikings in and out to poke and prod the colossus. With Corruptors, unless a Colossus is separated from the death ball, you either have to send everything or nothing. Corruptors are essentially flying roaches that don't have the benefit of being cheap.On September 10 2011 13:29 shadymmj wrote:On September 10 2011 12:46 Bactrian wrote:On September 10 2011 12:27 Whitewing wrote:On September 10 2011 12:20 Maetl wrote:On September 10 2011 12:13 izgodlee wrote:On September 10 2011 12:04 Protosnake wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, because zerg T3 isnt so much later than other race right ? When that terran will be pushing you with Thor/BFH at the 15min mark the zerg wont die because he will have several Ultra ready to fight Ultra and thor are both "T3" after all, they're out at the same time
Not. Maybe if zergs weren;t so greedy and needed 6 bases and 90 drones before they got a hive =/ It takes quite a bit longer to tech to T3 safely for zerg than it does for other races. Zerg does not have a very cost efficient way of defending, nor does it have terribly cost efficient units as a whole. Zerg also needs enough of an economy behind their T3 to get a lot of it out as soon as it finishes, zerg can not slowly build up its big guns like terran or protoss, it needs to produce many of them at a time. Why does cost efficiency matter when you're ahead in economy and bases? Good work not reading what was in front of you. The whole point was that your not cost effective, that's why you need more bases to be safe. Hence why you can't T3 that quickly. i think that's an excuse for poor decisions, sloppy micro and bad scouting. zerg tech = 100 gas for lair, 100 gas for pit and 150 for hive. baseline, that's not too expensive. that you want X bases with Y units, that's your style of play. zerg units are only weak when toss is near to maxed out. I don't think you understand how Zerg works very well. Zerg doesn't have many units that spawn "ready for action." Zerglings require a 100 gas upgrade to be relevant. Roaches require a 100 gas upgrade to be relevant. Banelings require a 150 gas upgrade to be relevant. Hydralisks need a 150 gas upgrade to be relevant. Overlords need a 100 gas upgrade to scout or you could morph a single overseer for 50 (as of this patch) to get some information. You see where I'm going with this right? Zerg units are weak when they've been given all of their proper upgrades vs. a protoss that's near max. NOW IMAGINE IF YOU TOOK ALL OR HALF THOSE VITAL UPGRADES AWAY AND CUT ARMY SIZE ALL IN A GAMBLE TO GET FAST T3. The icing on the cake is that our T3 units aren't revolutionary once one hits the field. When a thor comes out, a flock of mutas have to GTFO. When a Colossus comes out, your lings better GTFO. When an ultralisk or Broodlord comes out you send 4 zealots or a void ray to kill it. You need a sizable number of them. 2 or 3 Broodlords with a poorly teched ground army will crumble to literally anything thrown at it. And to your comment of: "This game is not rushing t3 asap and seeing who gets there first, I'm saying Zerg can tech to t3 faster than they are doing so now, maybe delaying their third saturation except for gas." You're right that Zerg T3 can come out faster then whats been seen, however the time and money invested in that tech when it's not done safely leaves the opponent with a HUGE window of opportunity to retaliate. You are thinking in a wrong way bro you are comparing t3 to t1 ? Anyway people like you should start thinking about well maybe i should not mass only t3 units and casters and prey i win and cry about how my expensive shit dies to snipes,feedback,siege fire,PFs whatever and start thinking how those t3 units can be my support for my army like it was in BW Zerg. Maybe you shouldnt have 90 drones and have 60-70 with mass ling,bane with some infestors and some ultras and not 32 infestors. I'm sorry can you highlight the part of my post you are actually referring to? Where am I comparing tier 3 to tier 1 units? And where is this "People like you" stuff coming from? I'm not crying at all. My long winded post was to emphasize the point that Zerg tier three isn't Protoss or Terran tier three, it can't be rushed otherwise you cut too much for any smart opponent to pass up. Or are you just making a broad generalization about me based on the race I play with no evidence to back up what you're saying? Seriously I've got no idea what the fuck you're saying. Reread my post then reread your post. Try to explain it to me. Srsly ? Colo is T3 robo unit Thor is T3 Mech unit Lings are T1!?#? Mutas are T2?!?# Maybe you are rushing it the wrong way ? Do i really need to explain ? You are comapring T3 rushing 1base vs 1base which is retarded and you are comparing timings lulz so by your thought process they should make barracks the same time as spawning pool to be balanced ?#!? Anyway thats also stupid because the game is not played that way lol. Maybe if you play Mineral only defense with some upgrades you will find yourself geting to T3 faster, because you will expand faster get more gases faster ? I miss the the old days already ppl whine all the time it doesn't matter what patch notes say they whine I bet my life that if they make barracks spawn with 2 rauders not 1 pro player playing as toss will switch their race because they will sit down and work a way all of it. Insted of whining all the time you should do the same and just give your opinion about the patch thats it you won't change anything in it. User was temp banned for this post.
To the mod who did this, thank you. I honestly didn't have a reply for this guy that didn't involve berating him.
OT: I'd like to hear Blizzard reasoning on why they're changing the spell. NP is definitely very powerful, something that should be on a higher tier caster but I don't think just nerfing the spell outright at this point and time is the right way to go. This seems like something that should be changed when HotS comes out.
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On September 10 2011 14:55 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 13:59 Elefanto wrote:On September 10 2011 13:58 Defacer wrote:On September 10 2011 12:59 Mizzit wrote:
wow no more neural on my colossi is gonna be great. the mass fester players are going to need to find a new build against toss. probably gonna see more roach corrupter w/ some hydra mixed in, but i can see this as the beginning of the end for the mass fester play style. what do i know though Roach Corruptor? the dark days of zvp are returning .. Yeah for bad players without knowledge of the match up, it certainly does. Korean zergs aren't using NP that heavily, yet they still absolutely murder protoss. Yeah that is what I'm thinking lol... I don't get the complaining, Koreans Zergs are absolutely crushing Protoss but we don't even see NP being used which will probably mean ZvP will still favor Zerg after Patch :|
The issue is that outside of Korea, the game is fairly balanced, while in Korea, it's horribly broken. T > Z > P over in Korea. Blizzard, however, is trying to juggle between Korea and non-Korea as I see it. I think non-Korean T and Z players should just bloody learn the Korean playstyles so Blizzard can get some proper patches rolling already (though I won't deny that this is quite a good patch).
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So they decided to make Neural not affect massive units. So what?
Fellow Zergs, I know this is obviously going to make some of our fights a lot harder, but is that so bad? The reason I play this game right now is to improve, and I think that the harder it gets the better I get in the end.
That's why I don't whine about balance. It's unecessary and actually sort of annoying. Take it with some strength and move on to try and beat your opponent without that particular spell, at least that's what I'm going to do. 
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On September 10 2011 15:33 shadymmj wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 15:03 Bactrian wrote:On September 10 2011 14:10 shadymmj wrote:On September 10 2011 14:00 Bactrian wrote:On September 10 2011 13:29 shadymmj wrote:On September 10 2011 12:46 Bactrian wrote:On September 10 2011 12:27 Whitewing wrote:On September 10 2011 12:20 Maetl wrote:On September 10 2011 12:13 izgodlee wrote:On September 10 2011 12:04 Protosnake wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, because zerg T3 isnt so much later than other race right ? When that terran will be pushing you with Thor/BFH at the 15min mark the zerg wont die because he will have several Ultra ready to fight Ultra and thor are both "T3" after all, they're out at the same time
Not. Maybe if zergs weren;t so greedy and needed 6 bases and 90 drones before they got a hive =/ It takes quite a bit longer to tech to T3 safely for zerg than it does for other races. Zerg does not have a very cost efficient way of defending, nor does it have terribly cost efficient units as a whole. Zerg also needs enough of an economy behind their T3 to get a lot of it out as soon as it finishes, zerg can not slowly build up its big guns like terran or protoss, it needs to produce many of them at a time. Why does cost efficiency matter when you're ahead in economy and bases? Good work not reading what was in front of you. The whole point was that your not cost effective, that's why you need more bases to be safe. Hence why you can't T3 that quickly. i think that's an excuse for poor decisions, sloppy micro and bad scouting. zerg tech = 100 gas for lair, 100 gas for pit and 150 for hive. baseline, that's not too expensive. that you want X bases with Y units, that's your style of play. zerg units are only weak when toss is near to maxed out. I'm not sure what your saying at all here, currently if your using infestors and you scout coli, the correct response is to get NP. In 1.4 the correct response to Coli is corruptors. You cannot win with roach corruptor on 2 base vs 2 base because corruptors are fantastically cost ineffecient vs coli. So... you'll need 3+ bases to survive against coli anyway? spire + greater spire for broods and ultra cavern? The +2/+3 armor upgrades you need for ultras to be usable? then the 250 gas cost per brood/150 gas cost per ultra? This is actually pretty comparable to teching to Coli with thermal lance and some ups, but the thing is having 1-2 coli out against lings/roaches etc. is a massive help. Having 1-2 ultras or broods out versus zealot/stalker/archon or gateway/coli doesn't help that much. 5+ broods or ultras are fantastic, but you're not going to have the gas to do that quickly enough off a lower number of bases anyway. Because it takes time for the toss to push across the map? You also need thermal for colossi, that's not even debatable, or they will be fungaled and focused down. You force them to advance slowly due to fungal ling surrounds, and once ultra tech pops, you can make a few at once. No ultras don't really need armour ups to be useful at that stage, in fact stock upgrades are better. This game is not rushing t3 asap and seeing who gets there first, I'm saying Zerg can tech to t3 faster than they are doing so now, maybe delaying their third saturation except for gas. I actually use a very similar strategy that what you're describing in my ZvP. I go almost pure ling with fastest possible 2/2 ups, pop out 3-4 infestors while expanding and then go to hive This does extremely well versus gateway units on open maps (I don't use this on corridor maps, it just doesn't work because you can't get good surrounds). If they forcefield themselves, it's easy to hit their nat or force warp ins at their main. Fungal is great for dpsing the ball when they bunch up to reduce surface area. Now keep in mind, ling/infestor is the smoothest path to T3. It gives the upgrades you need and you need the infestation pit to get hive anyway. It's basically THE way to go if you are aiming for fast T3. However you cannot go infestor/ling without NP against coli and expect to win the fight. Colossus have BBQ lings for breakfast lunch and tea. And corruptors do not kill coli fast enough to save the lings, and they cannot snipe coli either. So ling/corruptor isn't a viable composition versus Coli. For the same reason ultra/ling isn't either. The ultras aren't going to plough through the ball and take out the coli before all your zerglings have been toasted. This is why I don't like the change. I prefer to get fast T3 versus protoss, this actually makes it harder to do so because now I can't transition from a zergling/infestor midgame into zergling/ultra/infestor or festor/BL. i.e. it basically kills ling infestor in ZvP, which is the best T3 transition. The situation you've described is complete fantasy. Zerg cannot 2 base versus protoss very well. Zerg needs to take a third, and when protoss sees it they will move out when thermal is done or when they reach the number of coli they are comfortable with. Having lings/infestors in decent numbers at this stage is plausible (I aim to have them with my current playstyle). Stalling out a push versus 1-2 coli with lings and WITHOUT NP is extremely difficult (I would go for a runby - its extremely dangerous to engage with the high liklihood of coli surviving and warp in reinforcements). Stalling out long enough WHILE also banking gas for ultras (no more infestors) and while waiting for hive/cavern and then ultras to finish is completely ridiculous. i'm quite sure you can take a third before thermal finishes with enough colossi to make it worthwhile. all i'm saying is to bring timings forward a little by cutting saturation on the third. if there's only a couple of colossi, then roach/corruptors would be the better option, they only start to suck when colossi numbers get large. there is no way that ling/infestor should be able to hold 90% of the game, then BLs pop and game over in couple minutes. you admit that, at least, is kinda ridiculous. however, that said, i would not mind seeing hydras changed to become a core t2 zerg unit again.
yes, 2 colossi is manageable with overwhelming amounts of units, however, 4 colossi absolutely demolishes roaches, even with corruptor support, so this "large" number you are referring to should be what? 3-5 around there?
also, there was someone that tallied up the cost of essential upgrades and ended with saying ultras cost 150 something, they dont, they cost 300/200.
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So can anyone get on the PTR, or is everyone just theorycrafting? It won't let me get on, it says
I don't get the complaining, Koreans Zergs are absolutely crushing Protoss but we don't even see NP being used which will probably mean ZvP will still favor Zerg after Patch :|
This is kind of an ignorant thing to say... you are aware that Koreans use infestors a lot, right? We haven't seen it that much in the GSL because Zerg is owning Protoss for doing FFE and for doing stargate, and responding with a fast third and then overrunning Protoss with mass 3 base ling/roach, not because of infestors.
Only 1 ZvP went to infestor tech, Leenock vs Alicia, and Alicia opened DTs and Leenock knew it, and won because of that, not infestors. DRG and a few other Zergs made infestors, but had already won the game by securing a third against FFE builds.
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On September 10 2011 15:42 GoatSwarm wrote:So they decided to make Neural not affect massive units. So what? Fellow Zergs, I know this is obviously going to make some of our fights a lot harder, but is that so bad? The reason I play this game right now is to improve, and I think that the harder it gets the better I get in the end. That's why I don't whine about balance. It's unecessary and actually sort of annoying. Take it with some strength and move on to try and beat your opponent without that particular spell, at least that's what I'm going to do.
agreed, I almost never used neural anyway.
my thoughts on zerg strength as of 1.4:
fungal damage - meh, 16% of the funal dps goes away, which means about 2 % of the total dps goes away, my lings are the real unit-murderers anyway, the fungals killing stuff too was mainly a bonus.
NP change - almost never used it anyway, in ZvP there are a few possible situations:
the attack from protoss comes with:
no colossi: pure ling can handle it.
1-2 colossi: I should have about 3 infestors, mass ling + those can handle it
6-8 colossi: I should be maxed out on infestor ling with a massive economy advantage at this time, those + reinforcements should handle it.
10+ colossi: I should have my maxed upgraded ultras, lings and infestors out, assuming I can fungal them to make them not flee, I should win with my ultras
see? no NP.
in ZvT I only used it when I saw him getting mass thor, I guess I will have to get creative and solve the thor-issue some other way.
overseer cost and contaminate change:
interesting, mathematicly speaking the contaminate was buffed, the energy cost was increased, but not doubled, so you can still get more contaminate for the same cost, I will also be able to get a few overseers to scout with without it being a huge investment.
ultra build time: doesn't change extremely much, but does change some, I like ultras so perhaps a ultra-rush build?.
overall: I would say zerg is equally powerful before and after this patch, it is slightly less cost-efficient, but also slightly easier to acquire, since NP is in effect gone, no need to spend money on it right? and the above (non-costefficient but easy to get = OVERWHELM WITH MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF UNITS!) is what embodies zerg right?
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Russian Federation22 Posts
Actually what bothers me most about the Zerg race at the current meta game is how unused one of the most iconic units in the game is. And that unit is the Hydralisk. And blizz ain't doing anything about it.
Sure - seeing infestors every game is annoying for toss and terrans, but atm there are no viable midgame scenarios where z can feel safe and go for hive tech macro without the infestor. The hydralisk should fulfill this purpose as an alternative to the infestor, but unfortunately it gets completely demolished by mid game terran army or standard toss deathball army
So what I feel, and this is my opinion, nerf the infestor, but give Z another viable fall back strategy for midgame with the hydralisk. Atleast in ZvP it could be of use, if there was a hydra carapace upgrade that reduced damage taken from collosus. Let it cost 200/200 or whatever, but give z atleast two paths.
If this was already noted, then I do apologize
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EPT
