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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 | ||
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Bactrian
Australia176 Posts
On September 10 2011 12:27 Whitewing wrote: Why does cost efficiency matter when you're ahead in economy and bases? Good work not reading what was in front of you. The whole point was that your not cost effective, that's why you need more bases to be safe. Hence why you can't T3 that quickly. | ||
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hashaki
Norway210 Posts
On September 10 2011 12:45 emc wrote: might as well give frenzy back to the infestor that we had in the beta. Remove NP and give us frenzy so we can make our ultras attack faster. Seems like NP is pointless now why even bother with it? It should be a hive tech research at the very least or even if the infestor was a hive unit but we had something at T2 to compensate (lurkers!). Seriously, cry much? To call an ability useless because you can't use it vs the units it -has been- most used against up untill now is just useless crying. Tanks? Immortals? Templars? Ghosts? You can still NP the shit out of these units and they can do some serious damage. Fact of the matter is that Infestor has been this crazy counter-to-all-units-and-compositions lately and that's just wrong and bad design. Now with a slight nerf of FG and NP it might start balancing out, but I still see Infestors being the bulk of alot of Zerg play even after these nerfs simply becasue it'll still be a strong unit with it's spells. Personally I'd rather see FG do 50% slow (while it still disabled abilities like blink etc) instead of root rather than a damage-reduction as is suggested in this patch. It's been said before, but the "problem" (if there is one) with FG is that is roots AND does quite sick damage. Imagine the whine if Storm had 50% less damage but stunned units under it. Oh my god the crying we'd hear from both Terrans and Zergs and Protoss would just be "pfft, EMP or NP them" (like alot of zergs are saying to P on how to deal with Infestors right now) | ||
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Mizzit
United States9 Posts
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Serpico
4285 Posts
On September 10 2011 12:54 hashaki wrote: Seriously, cry much? To call an ability useless because you can't use it vs the units it -has been- most used against up untill now is just useless crying. Tanks? Immortals? Templars? Ghosts? You can still NP the shit out of these units and they can do some serious damage. Fact of the matter is that Infestor has been this crazy counter-to-all-units-and-compositions lately and that's just wrong and bad design. Now with a slight nerf of FG and NP it might start balancing out, but I still see Infestors being the bulk of alot of Zerg play even after these nerfs simply becasue it'll still be a strong unit with it's spells. Personally I'd rather see FG do 50% slow (while it still disabled abilities like blink etc) instead of root rather than a damage-reduction as is suggested in this patch. It's been said before, but the "problem" (if there is one) with FG is that is roots AND does quite sick damage. Imagine the whine if Storm had 50% less damage but stunned units under it. Oh my god the crying we'd hear from both Terrans and Zergs and Protoss would just be "pfft, EMP or NP them" (like alot of zergs are saying to P on how to deal with Infestors right now) lol you use counter extremely liberally. Also like the usage of the word "slight." | ||
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Disquiet
Australia628 Posts
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avidday04
United States63 Posts
Back when NP lasted forever, that was most certainly way too strong and was totally reasonable to get nerfed. However, this means that NP will lose more than half of its utility. Seems like people will have to continue to make coROFLupters vs. CoLULssus as their only viable option. I guess NP can still be used to steal vikings, and in the right situation a tank or two...maybe. (And we all know Destiny is the only one stealing vikings at the moment :/) Idk, I just keep picturing in my head: Blizz rep: "We want you to only Neural Parasite marines and zerglings only." But that's just me being silly XD As usual, we'll have to see how this plays out and if it even makes it in the game in the first place. My suggestion if they are content on changing it perhaps lower the energy cost of NP just a little? Or perhaps remove the research requirement? | ||
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Butigroove
Seychelles2061 Posts
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On September 10 2011 13:03 Disquiet wrote: I actually like the the overseer change a lot. It makes scouting much cheaper for zerg and the contaminate nerf was smart to stop it from breaking zvz now that overseers are the the gas cost, it shows blizzard clearly thinks about their changes carefully, I have no doubt the NP nerf was done for a good reason. What they should do is something about FG affecting Interceptors. | ||
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_-NoMaN-_
Canada250 Posts
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MaestroSC
United States2073 Posts
On September 10 2011 12:59 Mizzit wrote: wow no more neural on my colossi is gonna be great. the mass fester players are going to need to find a new build against toss. probably gonna see more roach corrupter w/ some hydra mixed in, but i can see this as the beginning of the end for the mass fester play style. what do i know though This was the normal when Zerg was getting repeatedly crushed by protoss. This combination was absolute garbage in the match up, and was what caused blizzard to make the infestor more viable and useful. You are about 6 months behind the meta game suggesting this. | ||
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
On September 10 2011 12:46 Bactrian wrote: Good work not reading what was in front of you. The whole point was that your not cost effective, that's why you need more bases to be safe. Hence why you can't T3 that quickly. i think that's an excuse for poor decisions, sloppy micro and bad scouting. zerg tech = 100 gas for lair, 100 gas for pit and 150 for hive. baseline, that's not too expensive. that you want X bases with Y units, that's your style of play. zerg units are only weak when toss is near to maxed out. | ||
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SpaceFighting
New Zealand690 Posts
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CeliosB
Canada100 Posts
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izgodlee
Canada133 Posts
On September 10 2011 13:29 shadymmj wrote: i think that's an excuse for poor decisions, sloppy micro and bad scouting. zerg tech = 100 gas for lair, 100 gas for pit and 150 for hive. baseline, that's not too expensive. that you want X bases with Y units, that's your style of play. zerg units are only weak when toss is near to maxed out. uh exactly... 150 gas for hive, if you already went for infestors, you're sacrificing ONE infestor for a hive? zergs make it seem like they cant spend that because they will be so starved for resources they cant defend anything, meanwhile its total bullshit, most likely they will be floating more then enough to get a decent timed hive. | ||
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epikAnglory
United States1120 Posts
Fixed an issue where Broodlords on the high ground would not be revealed when attacking enemy units on the low ground. All this time... No wonder | ||
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Supamang
United States2298 Posts
On September 10 2011 13:29 shadymmj wrote: i think that's an excuse for poor decisions, sloppy micro and bad scouting. zerg tech = 100 gas for lair, 100 gas for pit and 150 for hive. baseline, that's not too expensive. that you want X bases with Y units, that's your style of play. zerg units are only weak when toss is near to maxed out. Its not just about resources, its about the time it takes to get to the tech. Time it takes for Terran to get to Thors: Supply Depot - 30 seconds Barracks - 60 seconds Factory - 60 seconds Armory - 65 seconds (tech labs can be built any time between barracks to armory) Thats a total of 215 seconds to get Thor tech For Ultras, it takes Zerg: Spawning Pool - 65 seconds Lair - 80 seconds Infestation pit - 50 seconds Hive - 100 seconds Ultra Cavern - 65 seconds Thats a total of 355 seconds to get to Ultralisk tech Broodlords would take: Spawning Pool - 65 seconds Lair - 80 seconds Infestation pit - 50 seconds Hive - 100 seconds Greater Spire - 100 seconds (Spire can be built any time between Lair and Hive) Thats a total of 390 seconds. There is absolutely no way for a zerg to get to T3 tech before a Terran. This isnt even considering the fact that Terran has much more cost efficient units than Zerg does. Labeling things by tiers is completely misleading simply because of the time (and effort) it takes to get to those late tech units are totally disproportional EDIT: oh and for Colossi: Pylon - 25 Gateway - 65 Cyber Core - 50 Robotics Facility - 65 Robotics Bay - 65 Thats a total of 270 seconds for Colossi. Zerg Tier 3 is the slowest | ||
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Xxavi
United States1248 Posts
On September 10 2011 10:01 Ballistixz wrote: idra may rage alot and even overexaggerate at times, but if you actually try to understand to what he has to say then you will realize it makes sense. he is one of the best foreign players in the world after all so there is some truth and logic to what he says. he doesnt always just spew nonsense. i also have to agree that the ultra change does help ultras slightly, but it wont make them a viable unit especially with the immortal buff. they cost so much money and cost so much food but they get hard countered by so many things. even archons are a somwhat good counter to ultras. No, actually Idra makes very little sense when it comes to balance discussions involving Zerg. According to him, whatever race he plays is always underpowered, and other races are overpowered, players are stupid. Heck, when there's irrefutable evidence of Protoss being underpowered, he still thinks the players are stupid. His views are almost as valuable as mine. I am a fan of Protoss players. Infestors are cool units, but they are overpowered (as a unit on its own) with or without NP on massive units. Fungal growth is an instant spell that disables further movement, and that already makes them better units than high templars. Infested terrans are proving to be very good as well. Burrow+movement and NP makes them one of the coolest and strongest units. But still, I don't think they should have been nerfed. It's Protoss that needs a buff and Terran that needs a nerf, IMO. But something tells me that the game has been designed in a wrong way from get go, and it is proving hard to fix a broken balance. From day 1, you could see Terran have too many options, too many cool units. Marines with steam, marauders with concussive shells, mediavacs that heal and drop, ghosts that are brilliant etc. Protoss Archon sucked badly, now fixed, mothership and carriers are non-factors in grand scheme of things. Very limited options, very on the edge. In one game, they might end up looking OP, but most of times, there's no real solid class backing that up, so they might end up sucking badly, too. The big problem of this game isn't Zerg or Protoss, IMO. It's been Terran, but the game cannot be fixed, because they will have to literally delete units out of the game or nerf them out of the game like reapers (which were quite cool, too). | ||
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roemy
Germany432 Posts
- leave NP as it is -.- -> fungal becomes a defensive thing (until we drop queens behind mineral lines - but we might as well drop banelings vOv) and ultras could actually survive for more than 10 sec | ||
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Soulish
Canada1403 Posts
1 extra range improve corruption's damage % make their upgrades scale better | ||
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Resistentialism
Canada688 Posts
On September 10 2011 13:43 Supamang wrote: Broodlords would take: Spawning Pool - 65 seconds Lair - 80 seconds Infestation pit - 50 seconds Hive - 100 seconds Greater Spire - 100 seconds (Spire can be built any time between Lair and Hive) Thats a total of 390 seconds. There is absolutely no way for a zerg to get to T3 tech before a Terran. This isnt even considering the fact that Terran has much more cost efficient units than Zerg does. Labeling things by tiers is completely misleading simply because of the time (and effort) it takes to get to those late tech units are totally disproportional The other thing to consider, and I'd say it's maybe uniquely most applicable to mutas and brood lords, is the zerg production schema. You're talking about thor tech time but that doesn't factor in production capability. | ||
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